to remain in iskcon

[fish]

Srila Prabhupada has told to remain in iskcon, to not leave and to not create fractions. Even if in iskcon not all is good, necessary to remain to try to improve a situation, not necessary to leave. Similarly to this Arjuna wanted to leave the battle-field, but Krishna has told to him to remain here and to battle. This best renunciation and the best position, nobody should think that he more cleverly SP

[theist]

When a very young child is told by the parents not to ever leave the yard do you think the parent is also telling that child that even when he becomes older and capable of caring for himself he should not leave the yard?

 

Srila Prabhupada also wrote that he wanted his disciples to become independent and thoughful.

[suchandra]

 

Srila Prabhupada has told to remain in iskcon, to not leave and to not create fractions. Even if in iskcon not all is good, necessary to remain to try to improve a situation, not necessary to leave. Similarly to this Arjuna wanted to leave the battle-field, but Krishna has told to him to remain here and to battle. This best renunciation and the best position, nobody should think that he more cleverly SP

So far me and all of my 120 godbrothers/sisters who once werejust like one family and who tried to rejoin were told the same, we have no service for people like you. Actually I never left ISKCON, one day our 18-year old Temple President showed me a letter from our GBC who said that I'm no more welcome in his temple and even banned to visit that temple. I was never told why. You might think this could mean that I preached something forbidden, wrong, at that time there was no such thing as preaching against ISKCON authorities. Later I heard that this TP blooped, that GBC blooped, the next GBC and his successor both fell down. But still, ISKCON never tried to get to the bottom what actually happened and that this was an illegal sacking. Today, Ravindra Svarupa is the GBC but he considered to not even open a temple in Austria - since many years everything closed.

But what can be done? Even Prabhupada had to fight like anything to get things accepted (see below) and who can compare with him? We have to learn to be forgiving and wish everyone only the best. Vaishnava means to never feel offended and to always be forgiving.

 

Prabhupada: "Do not be misled by him. I have never advised him to act like that. If he is causing such disturbances he should not be allowed to indulge in such nonsensical activities." (letter to Brahmananda)

[mahak]

Srila Prabhupada is teaching that sanatana dharma is nothing to join or quit, has no gatekeeper deciding eligibility to be a member. ISKCON is the preaching tool Srila Prabhupada has founded to enable the world's understanding of this non-sectarian science. To take part in Srila Prabhupadas preaching mission is the definition of ISKCON. A diksa guru with his own mission can be seen as "remaining in ISKCON", an isolated devotee telling friends at work about the things he has learned can be seen as "remaining in ISKCON", there are no hard and fast rules.

 

Again, I mention the independent asrama I associated with even during Srila Prabhupadas appearance. We were not considered "rank-and-file" they didnt like us, we couldnt stay with them, diverse. Yet, when Srila Prabhupada visited the center, he always sent an emissary to the asrama with greetings and encouragement. We were following, we were preaching as he taught us, we were HIs disciples.

 

So, this "remaining in ISKCON" should be understood in the same light of his disappearance as with his appearance. If one understands that ISKCON is the preaching apparatus of sanatana dharma, the eternal function of the spirit soul, then there is no leaving ISKCON.

 

If we are speaking of supporting the foundation of my spiritual master, we also fully support to the level that we use guru-shastra-sadhu criteria to determine "bonafide" status, and we support or withhold support accordingly.

 

I was taught that if I was alone, and that I had a cookie offered and accepted by the Supreme Lord (meaning it was offered with love), and I gave this cookie to another, saying "haribol", that I was an official ISKCON center.

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[fish]

 

When a very young child is told by the parents not to ever leave the yard do you think the parent is also telling that child that even when he becomes older and capable of caring for himself he should not leave the yard?

 

Srila Prabhupada also wrote that he wanted his disciples to become independent and thoughful.

Ок, but the first principle to not leave, differently as the man becomes mature? I do not think, that teaching of imitation a highest level can be the way, in the beginning the first class should be, university then

[fish]

 

Even Prabhupada had to fight like anything to get things accepted (see below) and who can compare with him?

Oh yes, at Shrila Prabhupada there were many deviations, but he did not think: "What awful society, I should leave from here". He remained and corrected the most different situations. Even vaisnava such level remains, and as SP acarya, he has set an example for following

 

Flight from iskcon because of difficulties - the version of the sensual life, more perfect position - to remain and make correction of that does not correspond to Krishna consciousness. This real renunciation

[suchandra]

 

Oh yes, at Shrila Prabhupada there were many deviations, but he did not think: "What awful society, I should leave from here". He remained and corrected the most different situations. Even vaisnava such level remains, and as SP acarya, he has set an example for following

 

Flight from iskcon because of difficulties - the version of the sensual life, more perfect position - to remain and make correction of that does not correspond to Krishna consciousness. This real renunciation

What does it mean to be in ISKCON, I mean to say to remain in the real ISKCON - this means to follow all of Prabhupada's instructions how a Vaishnava should live, then you live within ISKCON. In that sense - actually the real sense, I don't live outside Prabhupada's ISKCON movement.

[theist]

 

Ок, but the first principle to not leave, differently as the man becomes mature? I do not think, that teaching of imitation a highest level can be the way, in the beginning the first class should be, university then

 

Not sure what you are trying to say fish, please repeat.

[fish]

 

Not sure what you are trying to say fish, please repeat.

If the man remains in iskcon, the good level will come.

Yes, to remain in iskcon means to remain in instructions SP

And one of them - to cooperate with others devotioties even if they are not so good. If devotee does not cooperate in distribution of Krishna consciousness - practically he cannot leave from a level of a neophyte. Because the attribute of kanishtna - he does not cooperate with others "Only Me and my guru".

[fish]

It is necessary to try to correct iskcon, being inside iskcon. The command of adherents inside iskcon can influence administration

[theist]

 

It is necessary to try to correct iskcon, being inside iskcon. The command of adherents inside iskcon can influence administration

 

 

Well, first one must correct themselves. I don't find institutional religion (which present day Iskcon is) inspiring.

 

If you like that sort of thing then it exists for you. Krsna fulfills all desires.

[mahak]

I agree with fish, because those who want to reform and re-establish ISKCON as a vehicle of Srila Prabhupada cannot do so from outside the walls.

 

However, I dont agree with his statement "Oh yes, at Shrila Prabhupada there were many deviations, but he did not think: "What awful society, I should leave from here". He remained and corrected the most different situations. Even vaisnava such level remains, and as SP acarya, he has set an example for following" This is opposite of what is fact, because he himself could no longer work within the confines of the Gaudiya Math GBC established by his guru maharaja. He not only thought, but actually said, "what awful society, I should leave from here." He did not represent GM, but still represented Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati from a position not affiliated with the foundation established by his guru maharaja.

 

One must always be careful in association, and if a foundation goes awry from the purposwe of its establishment, then by all means, to follow the right path IS to leave at once.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Kulapavana]

 

I agree with fish, because those who want to reform and re-establish ISKCON as a vehicle of Srila Prabhupada cannot do so from outside the walls.

 

yes, the change must come from within. Iskcon devotees must demand accountability from the leaders, as well as adherence to Iskcon laws. it is through these local devotees that the change must become manifested.

[cbrahma]

I agree that change has to come from the grass roots. It takes a lot of commitment as most of all - purity - to overcome the corruption at the top.

I've always said that, at least in a democracy - power is given - not taken.

None of these misleaders could mislead if nobody followed.

[Kulapavana]

 

I agree that change has to come from the grass roots. It takes a lot of commitment as most of all - purity - to overcome the corruption at the top.

I've always said that, at least in a democracy - power is given - not taken.

None of these misleaders could mislead if nobody followed.

 

That is why Srila Prabhupada wanted strong local temples managed by ELECTED local devotees without interference from GBC.

 

GBC was supposed simply to make sure the standards are followed. Apparently they can't manage to even do that, as the case of Balabhadra in Scottland clearly shows. They tolerated deviations for years.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

I agree with fish, because those who want to reform and re-establish ISKCON as a vehicle of Srila Prabhupada cannot do so from outside the walls.

True.

 

At the same time, ISKCON will react to perceived threats from the "outside", will they not? By being a "threat", we can change ISKCON (though, of course, we will not be able to dictate how ISKCON reacts to the "threat" if we are outside of ISKCON).

 

To quote James Farmer of the Berkeley Free Speech Movement:

 

 

"Every housewife knows the value of an agitator. It's the instrument inside the washing machine that bangs around and gets out all the dirt."

To Suchandra Prabhu--you are not a member of ISKCON, you *ARE* ISKCON (thinking of the scene from "Malcolm X" with all the kids saying "I am Malcolm X!).

[theist]

 

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I agree with fish, because those who want to reform and re-establish ISKCON as a vehicle of Srila Prabhupada cannot do so from outside the walls.

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yes, the change must come from within. Iskcon devotees must demand accountability from the leaders, as well as adherence to Iskcon laws. it is through these local devotees that the change must become manifested.

 

 

As if the GBC and their buddies give a ***t about what the rank and file bhaktas think as long as they keep giving donations and doing work. What are the basic level bhaktas going to do...fire them?

[theist]

Change Iskcon? Is that supposed to be the mission of our lives? Anything but change our own hearts I guess.

 

People say they want to preserve the purity of what Prabhupada gave, well then again I say, change the heart.

[Kulapavana]

 

As if the GBC and their buddies give a ***t about what the rank and file bhaktas think as long as they keep giving donations and doing work. What are the basic level bhaktas going to do...fire them?

 

if GBC men cant place their pet bhaktas as temple presidents very quickly the donations will stop flowing to them. I have seen it done. that power is in the hands of local devotees - IF and WHEN they chose to exercise it.

[Kulapavana]

 

Change Iskcon? Is that supposed to be the mission of our lives? Anything but change our own hearts I guess.

 

People say they want to preserve the purity of what Prabhupada gave, well then again I say, change the heart.

 

My own heart is changing by the grace of Krsna - now I want to do some SERVICE for his mission.

 

Improving the preaching infrastructure is service. Many hearts will be changed when people see a respectable preaching mission, not some manipulative cult like organization.

[theist]

 

My own heart is changing by the grace of Krsna - now I want to do some SERVICE for his mission.

 

Improving the preaching infrastructure is service. Many hearts will be changed when people see a respectable preaching mission, not some manipulative cult like organization.

Good luck. Please don't forget your neighbor along the way. I am so much in favor of Srila Prabhupada's stronger disciples developing their own preaching missions as Siddhasvarupa has long done as well as Tripurari and others.

 

Even if they don't personally accept disciples. This was my initial hope when I heard about the "ritvik" movement and their desire to just hear Prabhupada as their exclusive guru . Seemed so perfect to me. Carry on as is with new bhaktas accepting Srila Prabhupada as their siksa guru and developing love of God. But no they had to fight with the tar baby of Iskcon and try to reform it and came out hating all other gurus Iskcon and out and screwing it all up.

 

We don't do service to an instituiton, we due service and offer it to a person, in this case the Supreme Person and His representative. Wanting to fix Iskcon is nice sentiment but is it practical or is it an over-endeavor which will consume those that try?

 

People have been protesting Iskcon policy and showing their deviations since 1977. That is 30 years. Has it been fixed yet? The best way to fight with the GBC is to ignore them IMO. They are not going to step down and there is a whole line of wouldbe GBC's waiting to take their place if they do.

 

The material world is the place set aside for deviant religious institutions. Krsna is fullfilling the desires of those that want to play guru and those that want to follow them. Why should anyone be surprised? This sort of thing always happens after a powerful preacher comes to earth and then leaves just as a shadow follows behind someone who walks in the full daylight.

 

The Iskcon that everyone here loves still exists and can participated in but we have to allow our vision to note that externally it may have a different form and structure and not even be called Iskcon. It may be called Kulapavana's Kitchen which is a prasadam resteraunt and teaching center.

[theist]

 

if GBC men cant place their pet bhaktas as temple presidents very quickly the donations will stop flowing to them. I have seen it done. that power is in the hands of local devotees - IF and WHEN they chose to exercise it.

 

And how much more effective if those local devotees stopped grappling with GBC altogether and formed their own temple or preaching programs. You are essentially saying what I am saying which is noncooperation, it is just that IMO you don't want to go far enough. My position is to forget them completely. I am not worried about the buildings etc.

[Guruvani]

 

 

We don't do service to an instituiton,

 

In the Idealized ISKCON it is not a matter of serving an institution as much as it is serving senior devotees who govern a society of devotees organized for preaching and support.

I'll be the first one to admit that the ISKCON of today is not the "idealized" ISKCON that ISKCON was under the direct presence of Srila Prabhupada.

 

But, in principle, I don't have a problem with serving "an institution" if that institution is actually being managed by proper disciples of the acharya and doing so under his authority.

 

It can get impersonal if we just wholesale reject all "institutions" without considering if the institution is propery guided by the orders of the acharya.

 

ISKCON has failed the test as far as I am concerned and I don't consider that serving ISKCON in these days is tantamount to directly serving the acharya.

 

But, in theory, I think the idea of serving the society of devotees is quite a good idea.

[theist]

What I meant by statement "we don't serve an institution" is that the difference always remains between the energetic and the energy. For instance, say an acarya has built an institution, it is presently operating according to his will and he wants to expand it.

 

So by working to expand the institution you are in reality working to fulfill the expressed will of the acarya. So even if one spent every waking moment wrapped up in the business of the institution his service is directed towards the acarya, the energetic.

 

Now as in Iskcon today we find the acarya's expressed will is not being properly served by the institution and if we then work hard to expand the institution we would be serving the institution and not the acarya ie serving the energy and not the energetic.

 

It all hinges on the will of the founder acarya. His will is everything. And since he is Iskcon (NOT Iskcon is him) by serving his will you are serving Iskcon regardless of property address.

 

I am not against organizations just because they are organized. Everything in Krsna's universe is organized, even a skin cell. So a preaching effort needs organization also. As long as it is dovetailed precisely with the acaryas will no problem.

 

However the leaders of Iskcon since 1977 at least, have shown a remarkable lack of understanding the will of Srila Prabhupada. He says "don't change my books." They change everyone of them. He teaches guru is not appointed so the first thing they do is appoint themselves as guru's. Sheesh c'mon guys, ignore these people, forget about them.

[krsna]

 

 

 

 

:pray: :pray: