to remain in iskcon

[Guruvani]

 

Maybe because it was quite obvious that after his samadhi his disciples would continue the parampara as it was always done since ancient times?

Obvious?

Not hardly.

Not at all.

His senior disciples had only been devotees for no more than 10 or 12 years when Srila Prabhupada left.

 

Obvious?

To whom?

A deaf, dumb and blind man?

 

Show me one statement from Srila Prabhupada saying that the ritvik system could not continue after his passing.

You can't.

Such a statement does not exist.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada NEVER prohibited the ritvik system from continuing after his passing.

If he wanted it to stop he would have said so.

He didn't!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Can you show me just *one* place where Srila Prabhupada said that we shouldn't accept Mickey Mouse as our personal Lord and Savior???

 

Just one??

 

Srila Prabhupada *never* forbade us from accepting Mickey as our Lord and Savior!

 

 

Obvious?

Not hardly.

Not at all.

His senior disciples had only been devotees for no more than 10 or 12 years when Srila Prabhupada left.

 

Obvious?

To whom?

A deaf, dumb and blind man?

 

Show me one statement from Srila Prabhupada saying that the ritvik system could not continue after his passing.

You can't.

Such a statement does not exist.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada NEVER prohibited the ritvik system from continuing after his passing.

If he wanted it to stop he would have said so.

He didn't!

[Guruvani]

 

Can you show me just *one* place where Srila Prabhupada said that we shouldn't accept Mickey Mouse as our personal Lord and Savior???

 

Just one??

 

Srila Prabhupada *never* forbade us from accepting Mickey as our Lord and Savior!

No, that is wrong.

Shastra forbids worship of demigods, cartoon characters and other assorted creations of maya.

Shastra recommends worship of the acharya.

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.29.17 purport,

 

In Bhagavad-gītā, Thirteenth Chapter, it is clearly stated that one should execute devotional service and advance on the path of spiritual knowledge by accepting the ācārya. Ācāryopāsanam: one should worship an ācārya, a spiritual master who knows things as they are. The spiritual master must be in the disciplic succession from Kṛṣṇa.

So, shastra is quite clear on the matter of worshiping THE acharya. (not to be confused with the host of make-believe gurus who disobey their acharya and falsely assume the position of acharya for the purpose of being career gurus)

 

(yes, him too!)

[sevabhakta]

 

Can you show me just *one* place where Srila Prabhupada said that we shouldn't accept Mickey Mouse as our personal Lord and Savior???

 

Just one??

 

Srila Prabhupada *never* forbade us from accepting Mickey as our Lord and Savior!

 

Please, Srila Prabhupada specifically ordered the his representatives to continue ritvik initiation as they had been and simply increased the number of "zonal ritviks".

 

This in direct response to the question by leading GBC, "how shall we manage 1st and 2nd initiations after you are no longer with us."

 

This is what Guruvani meant.

 

If ANY of the Zoned out Acharyas/GBC/Neophytes had evidence that Srila Prabhupada countermanded this order, can you believe they would have not purchased airplanes and wrote it in the sky over every continent?

 

Broaden your vision. Srila Prabhupada used representatives in the form of Temple presidents and senior disciples to do the work of the Acharya, by living with candidates for 6 months to a year and let them evaluate their sincerity and capabilities. And he confirmed this process eternally within the Caitanya Caritamrta.

 

 

 

Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya 24.330:

 

• "Similarly, a disciple's qualifications must be observed by the spiritual master before he is accepted as a disciple. In our Krsna consciousness movement, the requirement is that one must be prepared to give up the four pillars of sinful life-illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. In Western countries especially, we first observe whether a potential disciple is prepared to follow the regulative principles. Then he is given the name of a Vaisnava servant and initiated to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, at least sixteen rounds daily. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master or his representative for at least six months to a year. He is then recommended for a second initiation, during which a sacred thread is offered and the disciple is accepted as a bona fide brahmana."

 

So, Murali, the Ritvik representatives Srila Prabhupada chose were already the most senior disciples, who were to be the people travelling to temples making sure spiritual standards were kept by the Temple Presidents, and if so, simply give Kirtana, class, and on to the next temple.

 

The ritvik's only power was to say yes or no to a TP's recommendation. And if they had no good reason to say no, and yet did so due to some personal issue with the TP, I am sure the TP would fight for the person they considered a qualified candidate.

 

Of course with the WHOLE GBC corrupted, what higher body to appeal to? This is why Nimai Pandit Dasa had the Long Island County Superior Court Judge ban the GBC from his temple.

 

The funny thing is that it was all black and white, and people who had no clue as to what Krsna or Gaudiya Vaisnavism was before Prabhupada came to America, are now experts on the "tradition" and are willing to publically denounce the facts of Iskcon's founder acharya's vision for his divine institution.

 

Srila Prabhupada never banned anyone from starting their own gig. He just did not want a bunch of ambitious fools ripping his institution into oblivion.

[sevabhakta]

 

Why is it absurd? Srila Prabhupada tried introducing chanting of 64 rounds to his disciples for example. That did not work so he settled for 16 rounds. Of course you can chant 64 rounds if you "follow his instructions exactly". The problem is that practically nobody can follow such instructions in the long run, thus the instructions have to be modified. Sometimes it takes a few years to evaluate whether an instruction is practical or not. You judge by the results - that is also Prabhupada's instruction.

 

You say: "If the Acharya ordered a system implemented, and was explicit in the detailed instructions of execution, then it is practical if you can get out of your false ego and just do it."

 

No, it does not mean that such a system is practical. That is merely your belief. Things are practical if they actually work as promised and lead to the intended result. That is a definition of "practical".

 

Prabhupada said you can maintain yourself by living on one acre of land and having one cow. Ever tried doing just that? You should. It would sober you up. Otherwise you will simply live in make-believe world.

 

Srila Prabhupada changed according to the DICTATES OF KRSNA.

 

What he didn't change, KRSNA THOUGHT WAS PRACTICABLE.

 

You are not Krsna. No one but the Acharya has the authority to change an instruction.

 

For you to compare reducing the number of rounds required to a simple and effective managerial matter which had already been in use perfectly for years is laughable anyway.

 

Merely my belief? Hah! It is called faith. But you don't yet understand that and I fully understand with compassion for you since you placed faith in a less than faithful servant of Srila Prabhupada. I did also once, to a lesser degree than you but I don't say that to hang over your head but to smack you up the head with it. Get over it. The acharya takes dictation from Krsna. Haricash did not.

 

And for your information smart guy, I live on one acre, and get almost all my food from it, and have only been farming it for 8 months. The cow is another story, still don't have one, but I trained under the best cow protector in the Northeast U.S.A., his space saving pasture rotation methods are simple genius, and if Prabhupada said it can be done I will show it.

 

Sorry you are having such a tough time, but it will get better, you are just very skeptical and careful, but don't let it end up in cynicism or it will be hard to dig out.

 

Hare Krsna

[kailasa]

It would be necessary to achieve that each temple ISKCON will be separated. It is necessary to not be separated from ISKCON as organisation, but to achieve independence to presidents of temples and parishioners of a concrete temple. Separated administration, communicating for all philosophy of books SP.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

You take me way too seriously

 

My point is that Srila Prabhupada could not be expected to specifically counter every ridiculous notion.

 

While you make a somewhat reasonable case for your position, I simply cannot accept it.

 

Rather, I tend to agree with Kulapavana Prabhu's analysis. I doubt Srila Prabhupada would have intended to make such a radical change from Gaudiya tradition without making that change perfectly and undisputably clear. To my admittedly narrow vision, that was not done.

 

I'm no expert on Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition, but I feel like I know a few.

 

 

Please, Srila Prabhupada specifically ordered the his representatives to continue ritvik initiation as they had been and simply increased the number of "zonal ritviks".

 

This in direct response to the question by leading GBC, "how shall we manage 1st and 2nd initiations after you are no longer with us."

 

This is what Guruvani meant.

 

If ANY of the Zoned out Acharyas/GBC/Neophytes had evidence that Srila Prabhupada countermanded this order, can you believe they would have not purchased airplanes and wrote it in the sky over every continent?

 

Broaden your vision. Srila Prabhupada used representatives in the form of Temple presidents and senior disciples to do the work of the Acharya, by living with candidates for 6 months to a year and let them evaluate their sincerity and capabilities. And he confirmed this process eternally within the Caitanya Caritamrta.

 

 

 

So, Murali, the Ritvik representatives Srila Prabhupada chose were already the most senior disciples, who were to be the people travelling to temples making sure spiritual standards were kept by the Temple Presidents, and if so, simply give Kirtana, class, and on to the next temple.

 

The ritvik's only power was to say yes or no to a TP's recommendation. And if they had no good reason to say no, and yet did so due to some personal issue with the TP, I am sure the TP would fight for the person they considered a qualified candidate.

 

Of course with the WHOLE GBC corrupted, what higher body to appeal to? This is why Nimai Pandit Dasa had the Long Island County Superior Court Judge ban the GBC from his temple.

 

The funny thing is that it was all black and white, and people who had no clue as to what Krsna or Gaudiya Vaisnavism was before Prabhupada came to America, are now experts on the "tradition" and are willing to publically denounce the facts of Iskcon's founder acharya's vision for his divine institution.

 

Srila Prabhupada never banned anyone from starting their own gig. He just did not want a bunch of ambitious fools ripping his institution into oblivion.

[cbrahma]

Whatever the solution - the problem must be admitted. ISKCON as an organization isn't working. I just go to the temple in LA and it's obvious. The morale is lower than karmis. It makes material life look good. Somehow I don't think that's what Prabhupada intended. Yah there's moments where friends act goofy, make friends with guests who are like them - but that's what it is - friendship based on material attraction. Taking it to the spiritual level just doesn't seem to work - it's just no fun.

[sevabhakta]

 

You take me way too seriously

 

My point is that Srila Prabhupada could not be expected to specifically counter every ridiculous notion.

 

While you make a somewhat reasonable case for your position, I simply cannot accept it.

 

Rather, I tend to agree with Kulapavana Prabhu's analysis. I doubt Srila Prabhupada would have intended to make such a radical change from Gaudiya tradition without making that change perfectly and undisputably clear. To my admittedly narrow vision, that was not done.

 

I'm no expert on Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition, but I feel like I know a few.

 

Perhaps Murali, if you took spiritual discussions more seriously, we would have some accord.

 

Guru is grave.

 

For example if you are as you say "no expert on Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition", how can you possibly feel qualified to offer an opinion in spiritual circles on the most contentious issue going? Not only that but one in which the only written and audio proof is that the system stands as ordered, despite what Anal lysis Kulapavana can dredge up from his conditioned mind.

 

I suppose I should chastise myself for getting involved with people who are not serious enough. Bad on me.

 

All this speculation regarding what Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition is in regards to how parampara succeeds from disciple to disciple is exactly that.

 

If Srila Prabhupada's ORIGINAL Books are read and and then that overall context used while specifically perusing to understand how transcendental knowledge and the bhakti lata bija are successfully passed along, one will find that Srila Prabhupada's system of utilizing others to represent his will in any matter, purely spiritual or in mixed devotion (ecclesiastical), is exactly what the "tradition" is.

 

He never banned any one of his disciples from becoming a mahabhagavat acharya in his own right, one who could offer unique sadhana like Sri Nityananda avadhuta according to desa kala patra.

 

Remember, in all the lineage Srila Prabhupada and Sridhara Maharaja introduced you to starting with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's advent to revive Krsna Consciousness through Sankirtana, there was no mixed sadhana (institutional) offered until Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja formed the Gaudiya Matha.

 

In ages past, the Acharya was an avatar or incarnation such as Brahma, Kapila, or some other empowered Rsi etc. All the Brahmana's were his representatives and Ritviks were considered the highest ecclesiastical (mixed devotion) position. They represented the Acharya in sacrifices. This is the meaning of Ritvik, look it up, many many instances in Bhagavatam.

 

In this age, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta saw the fallen condition of his disciples, and said, look, you are mixed and motivated though you think you are so great, use this institution to engage and dovetail your material tendencies.

 

They didn't. They splintered, some looking to use Gaudiya Matha property, physical and intellectual as the new Acharya, some splintering to form their own movements.

 

Now, to compare the westerners Srila Prabhupada attracted to the highly elevated though still mixed devotional disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta is almost apples and oranges if you know what I mean.

 

We needed an institution to dovetail our hard core material tendencies. The teenie tiny ajata sukrti or previous pious credits we had was just enough to warrant a chance at assisting Srila Prabhupada in his Sankirtana duties.

 

Suffice it to say, that the tradition never included a scenario where institutional sadhana had to be offered to mixed and impious though fortunate neophyte devotees.

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta said, keep things as they are, form a GBC and represent me.

 

Srila Prabhupada said keep things as they are, I choose the best of the GBC and senior men to represent me in initiating, and that is that.

 

Iskcon is HIS institution.

 

Anyone who thinks they are so advanced would of course have his blessing to start their own. And lets just say that as we have seen, westerners NEED institutional structure, or else they cannot regulate their bowels let alone their lust and envy.

 

So why do all these advanced disciples have to mangle his institution? Ruin and sell off his properties. Mangle his books.

 

Those who can't leave His alone will suffer greatly in the Final Analysis.

 

You are smarter than this Murali, it is just that you want to get along. Be strong.

 

Hare Krsna

[theist]

 

Srila Prabhupada never banned anyone from starting their own gig. He just did not want a bunch of ambitious fools ripping his institution into oblivion.

 

 

Yes starting one's own gig means from scratch and not feeding of Iskcon.

[kailasa]

If person create "single acharya" it is the same or bad.

[kailasa]

Ritviks need follow conception "guru" not "ritvik". They may create own GBC and some people may work as guru if follow strictly.

[kailasa]

And all - ISKCON, ritviks, singles acaryas, needs follow books SP it is general key for all problems. Who follow books SP he is has power another not.

[kailasa]

ISKCON it is follow books SP, another it is not ISKCON. Who follow preach books SP then he is ISKCON, who give example following books SP it is guru ISKCON. Essence it is books.

[Kulapavana]

 

For you to compare reducing the number of rounds required to a simple and effective managerial matter which had already been in use perfectly for years is laughable anyway.

 

 

To call the way Iskcon was managed in Prabhupada's times "simple and effective managerial matter which had already been in use perfectly for years" is truly laughable. The abuse of power was rampant, the abuse of devotees was rampant, the fraud was rampant (in some places our movement has even been turned into a true criminal enterprise). If this is perfection I hate to think what would constitute a failure in your book. Among the 11 appointees we had practicing homosexuals and pedofiles, drug abusers, and power trip junkies. Oh... that was such a perfect system...

 

I did place a lot of faith in what you call a "less than faithful servant of Srila Prabhupada". Fortunately, I never believed Iskcon guru myths and fairy tales and placed most of my faith in Krsna, our tradition and guru-parampara in general. Others were not so lucky. One of my godbrothers committed a suicide shortly after our guru fell down. A suicide of another one a couple years later was likely connected to the sense of betrayal as well.

 

You have to be very careful when you are telling people to believe in fairy tales because some people will take you seriously and when they realize they have been duped, there is no telling what they will do. When you tell people "a guru is as good as God" and all of a sudden the guru turns out to be "as good as dog" some people even turn violent. Remember what happened to Jayatirtha and Kirtanananda?

 

Anyway, you seem to be a nice devotee and I apologize if I offended your sentiments. I'm not cynical. I practice KC every day, and every day I perform service. I'm very optimistic about the future of our movement - but I just dont believe in fairy tales

[suchandra]

 

To call the way Iskcon was managed in Prabhupada's times "simple and effective managerial matter which had already been in use perfectly for years" is truly laughable. The abuse of power was rampant, the abuse of devotees was rampant, the fraud was rampant (in some places our movement has even been turned into a true criminal enterprise). If this is perfection I hate to think what would constitute a failure in your book. Among the 11 appointees we had practicing homosexuals and pedofiles, drug abusers, and power trip junkies. Oh... that was such a perfect system...

 

I did place a lot of faith in what you call a "less than faithful servant of Srila Prabhupada". Fortunately, I never believed Iskcon guru myths and fairy tales and placed most of my faith in Krsna, our tradition and guru-parampara in general. Others were not so lucky. One of my godbrothers committed a suicide shortly after our guru fell down. A suicide of another one a couple years later was likely connected to the sense of betrayal as well.

 

You have to be very careful when you are telling people to believe in fairy tales because some people will take you seriously and when they realize they have been duped, there is no telling what they will do. When you tell people "a guru is as good as God" and all of a sudden the guru turns out to be "as good as dog" some people even turn violent. Remember what happened to Jayatirtha and Kirtanananda?

 

Anyway, you seem to be a nice devotee and I apologize if I offended your sentiments. I'm not cynical. I practice KC every day, and every day I perform service. I'm very optimistic about the future of our movement - but I just dont believe in fairy tales

 

ISKCON is not a location but a state of consciousness. As soon we offer our food, chant sixteen rounds, read Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, follow the regs - then we're in ISKCON.

 

"If it is intolerable, please tolerate, please tolerate. Then it will be all right. I have repeatedly said… Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, tāṅdera caraṇa-sevi-bhakta-sane vāsa. Why we have opened this society? I could have initiated, and let him remain at his home. No. The society required. So by association we become good or bad. If you associate with goodness, then you acquire goodness quality, and if you associate with bad, passionate, ignorant, then you get that quality. So according to that quality…This Yadu-vaṁśa, they were Krishna’s descendants. Just like when a king comes, he comes with his associates. So when Krishna appeared, He had to marry so many wives because it was a stage to show Krishna's supreme authority, supremacy. So the demigods came down also from different planets to help Krishna. So these demigods became Krishna’s family. Some of the woman denizens, they became Krishna’s wife, and some of them became their sons. In this way, a huge family of Krishna, Yadu dynasty. One crore, very big family, 16,108 wives. Each wife had sons, ten sons, and each son had ten sons. In this way children, grandchildren, and the whole family, big dynasty, Yadu family. It is estimated 100,000 hundred times. So many. Now, Krishna wanted to leave this planet. So what will happen there? If they remain… Although Krishna knew that they have come from different planets, but they knew that “We are sons and grandsons and grandchildren of Krishna.” They were very much puffed up. So what is the difference between a demon and devotee? A demon is puffed up. That’s all. Falsely. That is demon. And a devotee is submissive, meek and mild. This is the difference. The demons will… We go, “My dear sir, we have got these books to understand Krishna, the Supreme Lord. So you kindly read this book. You will be benefited.” “Ah, what is God? Who is God? I am God.” This is demonism. And demigod or a devotee means “Oh, here is a book, something about God, Krishna. All right, let me read it.” That is the difference. Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ means they don’t care for God. That is the disease. Although they are under the stringent laws of God, still, they don’t care for God."

 

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 1.15.34

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Los Angeles, December 12, 1973

[sevabhakta]

 

To call the way Iskcon was managed in Prabhupada's times "simple and effective managerial matter which had already been in use perfectly for years" is truly laughable. The abuse of power was rampant, the abuse of devotees was rampant, the fraud was rampant (in some places our movement has even been turned into a true criminal enterprise). If this is perfection I hate to think what would constitute a failure in your book. Among the 11 appointees we had practicing homosexuals and pedofiles, drug abusers, and power trip junkies. Oh... that was such a perfect system...

 

I did place a lot of faith in what you call a "less than faithful servant of Srila Prabhupada". Fortunately, I never believed Iskcon guru myths and fairy tales and placed most of my faith in Krsna, our tradition and guru-parampara in general. Others were not so lucky. One of my godbrothers committed a suicide shortly after our guru fell down. A suicide of another one a couple years later was likely connected to the sense of betrayal as well.

 

You have to be very careful when you are telling people to believe in fairy tales because some people will take you seriously and when they realize they have been duped, there is no telling what they will do. When you tell people "a guru is as good as God" and all of a sudden the guru turns out to be "as good as dog" some people even turn violent. Remember what happened to Jayatirtha and Kirtanananda?

 

Anyway, you seem to be a nice devotee and I apologize if I offended your sentiments. I'm not cynical. I practice KC every day, and every day I perform service. I'm very optimistic about the future of our movement - but I just dont believe in fairy tales

 

Hari Bol

 

I say it was simple and effective because Srila Prabhupada and Krsna made it work. Despite a handful of serious and criminal deviations, which started way before Srila Prabhupada began giving Ritvik diksa, most nonsense remained in the minds of his disciples and did not manifest due to their awe and fear of Prabhupada.

 

The initiation system was ritvik for years, and it worked. That is what I referred to as simple and effective. Just check the log books to see how many people were "formally initiated" during 75-77.

 

Institution means formality.

 

Civilization means formality. Even the athiests use formality effectively.

 

The melding of formality and essence is an individual affair.

 

The system worked fine. Any system can be abused. Every system will be abused.

 

That was my point.

 

Thanks for the advice, but I would never tell anyone "a guru is as good as god", because I am shmart enough to qualify that statement if the need arose to even use it. First I would use Srila Prabhupada's purport where he condemns Mahdyama and Kanistha guru's as insufficient. Then I would quote where he warns only to accept an uttama adhikari as ones eternal spiritual master. Then, as you know, there is much more to say on the subject that would glorify the uttama, and not lend to anyone's downfall. And yes, such a one is as good as God.

 

You have great potential as a leader. Potential in this sense can only be realized when one like us accepts a greater authority than our middling relationship with supersoul. As a matter of fact, Supersoul, and others who have a thicker relationship than us with him, are guiding us back to the Acharya. Once old wounds heal, I find Srila Prabhupada's instructions even more glaringly perfect than before.

 

As far as those who tend to emphasize that it is easier to relate with Paramatma within before surrendering fully to him without (cough, Theist, cough cough), should look up what the Acharya's have to say about it.

 

No-one gets full time dictation without having fully surrendered to the external manifestation of supersoul called the Spiritual master.

 

That is the good as god one by the way. Like Srila Prabhupada.

 

Thanks for your kind words, and may Krsna bless you always.

 

Hare Krsna

[Kulapavana]

 

The initiation system was ritvik for years, and it worked. That is what I referred to as simple and effective. Just check the log books to see how many people were "formally initiated" during 75-77.

 

 

Prabhu, during that time people had faith in Prabhupada and wanted to believe that the system (for both initiations and management) he put in place was perfect and complete. It was all based on faith and promises. Things continued in that way even for a few years after Srila Prabhupada's departure from this world. However, with time it became quite clear that this system is very prone to all kinds of abuse and provides very little accountability from the leaders. As a consequence devotees left Iskcon in droves and the faith in the leadership and the system in general plumeted.

[sevabhakta]

 

Prabhu, during that time people had faith in Prabhupada and wanted to believe that the system (for both initiations and management) he put in place was perfect and complete. It was all based on faith and promises. Things continued in that way even for a few years after Srila Prabhupada's departure from this world. However, with time it became quite clear that this system is very prone to all kinds of abuse and provides very little accountability from the leaders. As a consequence devotees left Iskcon in droves and the faith in the leadership and the system in general plumeted.

 

Prabhu, history shows that the moment Srila Prabhupada left, those only appointed to be Ritvik representatives of the Acarya decided to self appoint themselves as Good as God Mahabhagavat Acaryas.

 

Thus the blessing of the Acarya was severed. The so called initiations that continued from there were perverted.

 

If there were any madhyamas or kanisthas among the group, they would not have disobeyed their spiritual master. Unless they were mislead by the Sinister ones as to what Srila Prabhupada's exact orders for the future were.

 

I intuit that some were like that, loyal but naive, and believed in some "tradition" arguement, and "assumed" the position of uttama zonal acarya with the thought that this is naturally what they should do in Srila Prabhupada's absence, and hey, the leading (sinister) men confirmed it.

 

For instance, Tamal declared in Topanga Canyon that they had disobeyed Srila Prabhupada and that they were only supposed to be ritvik reps.

 

Was he only playing a show of just waking up to that, was he playing a show of conscience in hindsight, or was he just playing his last ace?

 

Point is that while Prabhupada was there, NOONE bucked the system, all disciples were officially his, and Srila Prabhupada continued to encourage them to be his ritvik and expand their field.

 

These are undisputed historical facts.

 

All ecclesiastical systems, including Varnasrama Dharma are prone to abuse, none more than another, free will is the key.

 

The tradition since Srila Bhaktisiddhanta is institutional Matha style sadhana.

 

Before that, it was nitya siddhas putting on a show, enjoying lila, and showing us what WE could expect when we surrendered to an acarya and completed our sadhana. Lifetime after lifetime of being an advanced devotee, advancing eternally in MahaPrabhu's lila.

 

Being exposed to their example is no license to IMITATE. We are to understand the methods and examples of past acaryas and spiritual masters through the CURRENT acarya, and follow his orders.

 

I hope this rings a bell. You have forever to continue where you left off. Place your faith in Srila Prabhupada and damn those fools who tried to fool you.

 

Jaya Nitai!

[Beggar]

Srila Sridhar Maharaja from "Sri Guru and His Grace": "If we are sincere in our attempt, then no one in the world can check us or deceive us; we can only deceive ourselves (na hi kalyana-krt kascid durgatim tata gacchati ) [bg. 6.40]. We must be true to our own selves, and true to the Supreme Lord. We must be sincere."

[theist]

Here we are again. "Why didn't Prabhupada make it clear how the parampara was to continue etc. etc.?"

 

If we read the books he gave us it is nothing but examples of how the parampara continues, which BTW is the same thing as asking how is transcendental knowledge transmitted from teacher to student. Submissive questioning placed before the correct source and the instructions received followed makes for the parampara.

 

What is Bhagavad gita? Arjuna asks for knowledge and instructions from Krsna and receives them.

 

What is Srimad Bhagavatam? King Pariksit asks for knowledge and instructions from Sukadeva Gosvami? All through the Bhagavatam it is one example after another of transmitting transcendental knowledge from one who knows to one who wants to know through questioning and hearing the answer. This process is known as diksa according to Jiva Gosvami.

 

TRANSLATION CC Madhya 15.108

“One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

PURPORT

Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksha in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):

divyam jnanam yato dadyat kuryat papasya sankshayam

tasmat diksheti sa prokta desikais tattva-kovidaih

“Diksha is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksha.” [...]

 

All this religio/politico intrique about what was in the letter or tape or done or said in the backrooms of big big iskcon men is so much distraction provided by maya and nothing more.

[Kulapavana]

 

Prabhu, history shows that the moment Srila Prabhupada left, those only appointed to be Ritvik representatives of the Acarya decided to self appoint themselves as Good as God Mahabhagavat Acaryas.

 

 

In my book that would constitute an idisputable proof that the system introduced by Prabhupada failed because there was no check and balance system to prevent this type of abuse of power by his representatives. That system would have also failed because regular devotees were not trained to recognize the fraud and had no means to rectify the situation.

 

All that of course assumes that SP did intend to introduce the post-samadhi ritvik system - a belief which I do not share with you.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

All this religio/politico intrique about what was in the letter or tape or done or said in the backrooms of big big iskcon men is so much distraction provided by maya and nothing more.

 

Verily, it is so!!!!

 

I've been accused of being an "intrigue junkie" when it comes to "romantic" relationships. Rather than finding a nice, sincere, straight-forward partner, I tend to go for pathos and intrigue. I don't know why that is. Maybe the intrigue makes me feel more important.

 

Many of us appear to be "intrigue junkies" of one sort or another. We feed on sensationalism, don't we?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Perhaps Murali, if you took spiritual discussions more seriously, we would have some accord.

 

Guru is grave.

Not necessarily. Another translation of Guru is "heavy". That doesn't necessarily mean "grave". It can also mean "substantive". Guru can be simultaneously "substantive" and "light-hearted". Guru knows what's important and what is not.

 

 

For example if you are as you say "no expert on Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition", how can you possibly feel qualified to offer an opinion in spiritual circles on the most contentious issue going?

Gurudev is an expert (the most expert being I know). When he presents Krishna Consciousness, it seems so simple and palatable. It's as if he is playing the strings of my heart, causing my whole being to resonate.

 

He focuses on what is truly important, leaving the "most contentious issues" for us dogs to fight over.

 

 

If Srila Prabhupada's ORIGINAL Books are read and and then that overall context used while specifically perusing to understand how transcendental knowledge and the bhakti lata bija are successfully passed along, one will find that Srila Prabhupada's system of utilizing others to represent his will in any matter, purely spiritual or in mixed devotion (ecclesiastical), is exactly what the "tradition" is.

Sounds too complicated. If it was an important enough question to me, I'd just ask Gurudev.

 

Speaking of the "ORIGINAL Books", I was reading Krishna Book to the kids the other night. I'm pretty sure it was "ORIGINAL". I noticed some missing commas.

 

 

In ages past, the Acharya was an avatar or incarnation such as Brahma, Kapila, or some other empowered Rsi etc.

In ages past!?!??!?!?! When did that stop? I don't know who Gurudev *truly* is, but I know he is no ordinary person.

 

 

You are smarter than this Murali, it is just that you want to get along. Be strong.

Over time, I've been coming to realize that whatever intelligence I have will not serve me well unless my heart is filled with devotion. It's easy to be strong, but much harder to be surrendered, tolerant and humble. Still, you are very kind, Sevabhakta Prabhu.

 

In the end, I agree with Guruvani-ji that there is no *prohibition* against concocting some sort of Judeo-Vaishnava system. As far as I know, neither is there any rule prohibiting one from running the Boston Marathon while hopping on one leg.

[fish]

Anyhow, SP encouraged to join to iskon, and did not encourage to leave iskcon. It is clear. If the man in other tradition, he can practise also. But if he has come to iskcon, he should try to remain. What can be the reason for leaving? And if he has left, he can try to return. It is possible to be not consent with someone of persons of iskcon, but iscon is big, it is possible to find other people in it. And iskcon it is identical to Krishna, SP speaks so, I read it.