to remain in iskcon

[suchandra]

 

Anyhow, SP encouraged to join to iskon, and did not encourage to leave iskcon. It is clear. If the man in other tradition, he can practise also. But if he has come to iskcon, he should try to remain. What can be the reason for leaving? And if he has left, he can try to return. It is possible to be not consent with someone of persons of iskcon, but iscon is big, it is possible to find other people in it. And iskcon it is identical to Krishna, SP speaks so, I read it.

Thanks fish (although I start to feel more and more sorry about that poor fish on the pic), you're surely right. In my case I must move to another country in order to be with ISKCON or inside of ISKCON. The way I was forced out of ISKCON by corrupt leaders can be also seen as Krishna's arrangement. In order to rejoin ISKCON - Krishna will surely arrange when the time is right and my service for this great movement is of such kind that it is like an outstanding achievement and appreciated by all the devotees.

Anything less is nothing but disturbing the honourable Vaishnavas.

Here some prayer for invoking auspiciousness:

 

Sri Sri Sad-goswamy-astaka

 

"Eight Prayers to the Six Goswamis"

by Srinivasa Acharya

 

1.

krsnotkirtana-gana-nartana-parau premamrtambho-nidhi

dhiradhira-jana-priyau priya-karau nirmatsarau pujitau

sri-caitanya-krpa-bharau bhuvi bhuvo bharavahantarakau

vande rupa-sanatanau raghu-yugau sri-jiva-gopalakau

 

1. I offer my respectful obeisances unto the six Gosvamis, namely Sri Rupa Gosvami, Sri Sanatana Gosvami, Sri Raghunatha Bhatta Gosvami, Sri Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Sri Jiva Gosvami, and Sri Gopala Bhatta Gosvami, who are always engaged in chanting the holy name of Krsna and dancing.

They are just like the ocean of love of God, and they are popular both with the gentle and with the ruffians, because they are not envious of anyone. Whatever they do, they are all-pleasing to everyone, and they are fully blessed by Lord Caitanya. Thus they are engaged in missionary activities meant to deliver all the conditioned souls in the material universe.

 

2.

nana-sastra-vicaranaika-nipunau sad-dharma-samsthapakau

lokanam hita-karinau tri-bhuvane manyau saranyakarau

radha-krsna-padaravinda-bhajananandena mattalikau

vande rupa-sanatanau raghu-yugau sri-jiva-gopalakau

 

2. I offer my respectful obeisances unto the six Gosvamis, namely Sri Rupa Gosvami, Sri Sanatana Gosvami, Sri Raghunatha Bhatta Gosvami, Sri Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Sri Jiva Gosvami, and Sri Gopala Bhatta Gosvami, who are very expert in scrutinizingly studying all the revealed scriptures with the aim of establishing eternal religious principles for the benefit of all human beings.

Thus they are honored all over the three worlds and they are worth taking shelter of because they are absorbed in the mood of the gopis and are engaged in the transcendental loving service of Radha and Krsna.

 

3.

sri-gauranga-gunanuvarnana-vidhau sraddha-samrddhy-anvitau

papottapa-nikrntanau tanu-bhrtam govinda-ganamrtaih

anandambudhi-vardhanaika-nipunau kaivalya-nistarakau

vande rupa-sanatanau raghu-yugau sri-jiva-gopalakau

 

3. I offer my respectful obeisances unto the six Gosvamis, namely Sri Rupa Gosvami, Sri Sanatana Gosvami, Sri Raghunatha Bhatta Gosvami, Sri Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Sri Jiva Gosvami, and Sri Gopala Bhatta Gosvami, who are very much enriched in understanding of Lord Caitanya and who are thus expert in narrating His transcendental qualities.

They can purify all conditioned souls from the reactions of their sinful activities by pouring upon them transcendental songs about Govinda.

As such, they are very expert in increasing the limits of the ocean of transcendental bliss, and they are the saviors of the living entities from the devouring mouth of liberation.

 

4.

tyaktva turnam asesa-mandala-pati-srenim sada tuccha-vat

bhutva dina-ganesakau karunaya kaupina-kanthasritau

gopi-bhava-rasamrtabdhi-lahari-kallola-magnau muhur

vande rupa-sanatanau raghu-yugau sri-jiva-gopalakau

 

4. I offer my respectful obeisances unto the six Gosvamis, namely Sri Rupa Gosvami, Sri Sanatana Gosvami, Sri Raghunatha Bhatta Gosvami, Sri Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Sri Jiva Gosvami, and Sri Gopala Bhatta Gosvami, who kicked off all association of aristocracy as insignificant.

In order to deliver the poor conditioned souls, they accepted loincloths, treating themselves as mendicants, but they are always merged in the ecstatic ocean of the gopis' love for Krsna and bathe always and repeatedly in the waves of that ocean.

 

5.

kujat-kokila-hamsa-sarasa-ganakirne mayurakule

nana-ratna-nibaddha-mula-vitapa-sri-yukta-vrndavane

radha-krsnam ahar-nisam prabhajatau jivarthadau yau muda

vande rupa-sanatanau raghu-yugau sri-jiva-gopalakau

 

5. I offer my respectful obeisances unto the six Gosvamis, namely Sri Rupa Gosvami, Sri Sanatana Gosvami, Sri Raghunatha Bhatta Gosvami, Sri Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Sri Jiva Gosvami, and Sri Gopala Bhatta Gosvami, who were always engaged in worshiping Radha-Krsna in the transcendental land of Vrndavana where there are beautiful trees full of fruits and flowers which have under their roots all valuable jewels.

The Gosvamis are perfectly competent to bestow upon the living entities

the greatest boon of the goal of life.

 

 

6.

sankhya-purvaka-nama-gana-natibhih kalavasani-krtau

nidrahara-viharakadi-vijitau catyanta-dinau ca yau

radha-krsna-guna-smrter madhurimanandena sammohitau

vande rupa-sanatanau raghu-yugau sri-jiva-gopalakau

 

6. I offer my respectful obeisances unto the six Gosvamis, namely Sri Rupa Gosvami, Sri Sanatana Gosvami, Sri Raghunatha Bhatta Gosvami, Sri Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Sri Jiva Gosvami, and Sri Gopala Bhatta Gosvami, who were engaged in chanting the holy names of the Lord and bowing down in a scheduled measurement.

In this way they utilized their valuable lives and in executing these devotional activities they conquered over eating and sleeping and were always meek and humble enchanted by remembering the transcendental qualities of the Lord.

 

7.

radha-kunda-tate kalinda-tanaya-tire ca vamsivate

premonmada-vasad asesa-dasaya grastau pramattau sada

gayantau ca kada harer guna-varam bhavabhibhutau muda

vande rupa-sanatanau raghu-yugau sri-jiva-gopalakau

 

7. I offer my respectful obeisances unto the six Gosvamis, namely Sri Rupa Gosvami, Sri Sanatana Gosvami, Sri Raghunatha Bhatta Gosvami, Sri Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Sri Jiva Gosvami, and Sri Gopala Bhatta Gosvami, who were sometimes on the bank of the Radha-kunda lake or the shores of the Yamuna and sometimes at Vamsivata.

There they appeared just like madmen in the full ecstasy of love for Krsna, exhibiting different transcendental symptoms in their bodies, and they were merged in the ecstasy of Krsna consciousness.

 

 

8.

he radhe vraja-devike ca lalite he nanda-suno kutah

sri-govardhana-kalpa-padapa-tale kalindi-vane kutah

ghosantav iti sarvato vraja-pure khedair maha-vihvalau

vande rupa-sanatanau raghu-yugau sri-jiva-gopalakau

 

8. I offer my respectful obeisances unto the six Gosvamis, namely Sri Rupa Gosvami, Sri Sanatana Gosvami, Sri Raghunatha Bhatta Gosvami, Sri Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Sri Jiva Gosvami, and Sri Gopala Bhatta Gosvami, who were chanting very loudly everywhere in Vrndavana, shouting, "Queen of Vrndavana, Radharani! O Lalita! O son of Nanda Maharaja!

Where are you all now? Are you just on the hill of Govardhana, or are you under the trees on the bank of the Yamuna? Where are you?"

These were their moods in executing Krsna consciousness.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

They can purify all conditioned souls from the reactions of their sinful activities by pouring upon them transcendental songs about Govinda.

As such, they are very expert in increasing the limits of the ocean of transcendental bliss, and they are the saviors of the living entities from the devouring mouth of liberation.

Isn't that a lovely thought!?!?!

 

The pure devotee of the Lord, while not concocting anything new, can actually *expand* the "ocean of transcendental bliss"!

 

Astounding.

[sevabhakta]

 

In my book that would constitute an idisputable proof that the system introduced by Prabhupada failed because there was no check and balance system to prevent this type of abuse of power by his representatives. That system would have also failed because regular devotees were not trained to recognize the fraud and had no means to rectify the situation.

 

All that of course assumes that SP did intend to introduce the post-samadhi ritvik system - a belief which I do not share with you.

 

Did he intend to do what he did? Lets leave that back in high school. Anyway, I explained perfectly how it was no different than the System that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhu dispensed to his mixed disciples. Blame him for starting the "new Gaudiya tradition" of institutionalized Daivi Varnasrama Dharma wherein senior qualified brahmin priests would perform formal diksa sacrifice on behalf of the Acarya, just like past yugas. Iskcon was the Gaudiya Matha, GBC and priestly reps and all, just spelled out in more detail for our advantage, which we needed by the way. Acarya in the center like it or leave it. Srila Prabhupada left and formed the exact same thing. Hmmph, wonder about that.

 

They both wanted to see souls perform those rituals with the essence in their heart, so that they would come alive with meaning. It will happen.

 

The problem is that when meditating on this subject, sometimes folks forget that Srila Prabhupada introduced the ritvik system along side introducing and demanding a calculated categorizing of Iskcon's members by guna and Karma, a.k.a Daivi Varnasrama Dharma, but the fools were already such highly elevated Vaisnavas they could not wrap their head around such an order from their Spiritual Master, or perhaps they were just not brahminically inclined to understand such, but i digress from the essential point which is that tying in the insistent preaching and ordering of varnasrama from 74-77, we can see how what KRSNA dictated was a Satya Yuga style Brahminically headed heirarchy, and I assume all here are aware of the standard role of qualified priests to represent the Acarya at sacrifices. Remember the Diksa initiation may have occured in reality before the formal ceremony, or may occur lifetimes after, but the ceremony is still ordered performed by the Acarya, for the neophytes, like us, what mercy.

 

On to the issue of Checks and Balances which were perfectly manifest in the Official Iskcon system due to Srila Prabhupada's expert crafting of his brahminical and managerial heirarchies, yet they were only made to function fruitively when used by the honest and sincere to keep themselves that way.

 

His system, nay ANY system which touches material management will have another affect on the Earth when in the hands of demoniac atheists.

 

He worked with who Krsna gave him. He set the example with us. You actually once were serving, even if only in some small way, the speculative exploits of a deluded neophyte upon material creation, and called him Diksa Guru. I have my story. Srila Prabhupada gave the system to all us fallen souls in the west, and he accounted for the least common denominator, which if we are honest is not exactly far from the average qualification we each carry.

 

And it was Krsna's system anyway, and he sent largely naive, barely responsible people into this system and somehow someway by his Grace and the Grace of his compassionate servant Srila Prabhupada, a Sankirtana movement occured.

 

And when he left the scene he left the decision to continue to follow and maybe maintain the edge between what success there was and total meltdown, and we know the choice that was made, but hey don't you think Krsna, who dictated the whole thing, knew exactly who each of us were and how to organize us, taking into consideration myriad aspects of our individual karmic adjustments and other things we could not possibly handle ourselves.?

 

It may seem convenient at present for us to remain seperate, maintaining ourselves on the Karmi dole, but truly we can only make the type of advancement which would please Srila Prabhupada and ourselves when we remove any blocks to our ability to recognize who we must associate with regularly, who is above us and who below us, by deeply admitting our own mixed devotional motivations as, at best, 2nd class devotees, and look to the prescription from the most recent Sakta-vesa Acarya to see how to structure our Vaisnava societal interactions in order to dovetail most nicely and purify our desires until they are only for Pure Bhakti proper.

 

This part of the presecription had to do with living communally and ultimately over time keeping spiritual community and karmi community seperate, except for trade and evangelism (Harinama parties and prasadam distribution).

 

What might help us is if we can just remember that we didn't have a clue, except for maybe embodying a few agnostic civilized principles, on how to structure and maintain a brahminical community of the highest order in 10 years amidst a sea of voidism and impersonalism during a Kali Yuga, amidst race wars, government corruption, and general satanic mayhem.

 

This is the shoe i beat my mind with, and from my progress I see in my life, it helps.

 

Hari Bol!

[Guruvani]

 

As far as I know, neither is there any rule prohibiting one from running the Boston Marathon while hopping on one leg.

Well, there is such a prohibition.

Shastra and the acharyas say that overendeavering for mundane things that are very difficult to attain is prohibited.

 

Such silly remarks actually can be refuted with shastra.

The ritvik system really can't be if you understand the power, authority and position a true acharya and representative of Krishna actually possesses.

 

So, your efforts to debunk the ritvik idea with silly comparisons fails miserably.

 

If you can show some shastric support for your claim that a ritvik system is prohibited then please do.

Otherwise, you are just trying to demean the faith of others with your humorous jabs at the ritvik system.

 

How easily we forget that Sridhar Maharaja appointed Govinda Maharaja as ritvik "from now on he will initiate on my behalf as ritvik".

 

Maybe you could show a little more respect for a system that Srila Sridhar Maharaja also employed in his mission.

 

The result of deviating from the ritvik system at SCSMath is that after Govinda Maharaja is gone the mission will fizzle-out into an ISKCON-like camp of dozens of little gurus all competing for disciples as career gurus in the Matha.

These scenarios were foreseen by the acharyas and they tried to prevent such a mess with ritvik systems but their most trusted followers abandoned such protective measures and created a situation where in the future the parampara system will be a cheap dimestore version of a most sacred and holy principle.

[Kulapavana]

 

...I explained perfectly how it was no different than the System that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhu dispensed to his mixed disciples. Blame him for starting the "new Gaudiya tradition" of institutionalized Daivi Varnasrama Dharma wherein senior qualified brahmin priests would perform formal diksa sacrifice on behalf of the Acarya, just like past yugas.

 

There was never anything like that in the past yugas...

 

Anyway, we are beating a dead horse (not to be confused with the aswhamedha-yajna)

[sevabhakta]

 

There was never anything like that in the past yugas...

 

Anyway, we are beating a dead horse (not to be confused with the aswhamedha-yajna)

 

Well, on that one point I may be somewhat in the realm of speculation as to which samskara yajna was considered diksa initiation in past yugas and who received it (likely all young dvija-bandhu males) but certainly all sacrifices, for whatever samskara (individual or collective), were performed by priests, and they were often known as ritvks, and they always represented whoever was the last incarnation of acarya potency to give the system. Look it up. It is in the Bhagavatam, and the sankrit dictionary helps delineate the different categories of ritviks.

 

I notice that you jump on the only abstractly questionable thing I wrote and disregard the rest, resorting to the dead horse excuse to bow out. That is ok. I didn't know it was so bad. But just know I will kick on anyone's horse-like mind who contradicts the acarya on this forum, as long as they show a glimmer of life/hope.

 

Please accept my worthless blessings and obeisances.

[Kulapavana]

 

...speculation as to which samskara yajna was considered diksa initiation in past yugas and who received it (likely all young dvija-bandhu males) but certainly all sacrifices, for whatever samskara (individual or collective), were performed by priests, and they were often known as ritvks, and they always represented whoever was the last incarnation of acarya potency to give the system. Look it up. It is in the Bhagavatam, and the sankrit dictionary helps delineate the different categories of ritviks.

 

Actually, the most important priest during every sacrifice was the hotri priest (the one pouring oblations and chanting the sacrificial mantras). the ritvija priests (corrupted into "ritviks") were the ones sitting in four corners of the sacrificial arena, reciting Vedic hymns and providing general asistance to the hotri in preparation of the sacrifice - that is seen even in the fire yajnas in Iskcon. A hotri priest was retained by the person ordering the sacrifice. The initiation (upanayana) was usually a much smaller ceremony performed by the family guru himself.

 

Thus your claim to any link between the ancient use of ritvija brahmanas and post-samadhi initiations on behalf of a departed guru are 100% bogus.

[Kulapavana]

 

On to the issue of Checks and Balances which were perfectly manifest in the Official Iskcon system due to Srila Prabhupada's expert crafting of his brahminical and managerial heirarchies, yet they were only made to function fruitively when used by the honest and sincere to keep themselves that way.

 

Prabhupada did not install real brahmanas in the positions of power in his society. Who among the 11 was a real brahmana? Some of these devotees had brahminical tendencies but most of them were likely just ambitious vaishyas. He generally surrounded himself with very ambitious and driven disciples - perheps they were the ones most likely to accomplish big material things (collecting money and building temples) but also they were the ones most likely to go astray on a power trip. And that is precisely what happened. To call that a perfect system is a misunderstanding. That is the point I have been trying to make.

[sevabhakta]

 

Actually, the most important priest during every sacrifice was the hotri priest (the one pouring oblations and chanting the sacrificial mantras). the ritvija priests (corrupted into "ritviks") were the ones sitting in four corners of the sacrificial arena, reciting Vedic hymns and providing general asistance to the hotri in preparation of the sacrifice - that is seen even in the fire yajnas in Iskcon. A hotri priest was retained by the person ordering the sacrifice. The initiation (upanayana) was usually a much smaller ceremony performed by the family guru himself.

 

Thus your claim to any link between the ancient use of ritvija brahmanas and post-samadhi initiations on behalf of a departed guru are 100% bogus.

 

No, If I have to look it up I will, but forget what you think you know from visiting India and immersing yourself in its "culture", and read the bhagavatam searching; (rtvik, rtvij, rtv) and then the online sanskrit definitions of rittvik, rittik, rtvij, and all other priestly titles, including that of the family priest (atharvani or kulavipra or even purohita).

 

Actually most properly, according to the Sanskrit lexicon, the rtvik is a priest in the state of being rtvij. The purohita is closer to the definition of the Temple Presidents job in the matter. The rtvik is the head priest, or the Hotri, of the sacrifice, as well as the other 4 main are considered rtvik, but they are guided by the Hotri. Formality.

 

In the Bhagavatam, don't have time to find the quote, he is considered the representative of the acarya in the offering to Lord Visnu.

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=3><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right>1</TD><TD vAlign=top>Rtvik</TD><TD vAlign=top>(in comp. for %{Rtvi4j} below) ; %{-tva} n. the state of being a R2itvij or priest Ta1n2d2yaBr. ; %{-patha} m. the path of the priest on the sacrificial ground La1t2y. ; %{-phala} n. the reward of a priest Jaim</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=3><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top>Rtvij</TD><TD vAlign=top>mfn. (fr. %{yaj}) , sacrificing at the proper time , sacrificing regularly ; (%{k}) m. a priest (usually four are enumerated , viz. Hotr2i , Adhvaryu , Brahman , and Udga1tr2i ; each of them has three companions or helpers , so that the total number is sixteen , viz. %{hotR} , Maitra1varun2a , Accha1va1ka , Gra1va-stut ; %{adhvaryu} , Prati-prastha1tr2i , Nesht2r2i , Un-netr2i ; %{brahman} , Bra1hman2a1cchan6sin , Agni1dhra , Potr2i ; %{udgAtR} , Prastotr2i , Pratihartr2i , Subrahman2ya A1s3vS3r. iv , 1 , 4-6) RV. AV. TS. S3Br. Ka1tyS3r. &c.

 

So the most relevent definition of family priest is actually purohita, which is...

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=3><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right>8

</TD><TD vAlign=top>purohita</TD><TD vAlign=top>(%{puro-}.) mfn. placed foremost or in front , charged , commissioned , appointed ; m. one holding a charge or commission , an agent ; (esp.) a family priest , a domestic chaplain RV. &c. &c. (RTL. 352 &c.) ; %{-karman} n. N. of 3rd Paris3. of AV. ; %{-tva} n. the rank of a Purohita MBh.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[sevabhakta]

 

Prabhupada did not install real brahmanas in the positions of power in his society. Who among the 11 was a real brahmana? Some of these devotees had brahminical tendencies but most of them were likely just ambitious vaishyas. He generally surrounded himself with very ambitious and driven disciples - perheps they were the ones most likely to accomplish big material things (collecting money and building temples) but also they were the ones most likely to go astray on a power trip. And that is precisely what happened. To call that a perfect system is a misunderstanding. That is the point I have been trying to make.

 

You are correct that the persons appointed to the positions created used their free will to fall from their appointed rounds. As you say, some had brahminical tendencies, and also, as we know, this in no way assures chastity to discipline.

 

But the true legacy, for those with the ears to hear what the eyes read, is the perfected system which can always be taken up, Vaidhi and eventually Raganuga Bhakti Yoga Sadhana through the Sadhana vehicle of Iskcon's Daivi Varnasrama Sankirtana Movement as conceived, introduced, arranged, and executed by Sri Nityananda Prabhu himself, through his transparent representative.

 

It is sad to think of how many souls have been diverted from taking up the functions in Srila Prabhupada's eternal house of sadhana, due to the shennanigans of hooligans, but those with deep desire will be given the intelligence to see that Srila Prabhupada's offering of a direct path to pure devotional service through DVD style Sankirtana Yajna, and will immediately recognize the other disciples of Srila Prabhupada who were not just already on board, but had actually just pulled that Prabhu on the boat, from the whilrpool of poisonous emotional reactions to the Sinister Scoundrels.

 

Local control, GBC as someone you love to see, Acarya at the center, who points us always to the lotus feet of Sri Sri Gaura Nitai, and Sri Sri Radha Krsna.

 

Would Krsna dictate any less of a plan to his humble Acarya?

 

The real question is, are there any takers with the stuff to do it justice?

 

Bolo Hari

[Kulapavana]

 

No, If I have to look it up I will, but forget what you think you know from visiting India and immersing yourself in its "culture", and read the bhagavatam...

 

I have never visited India but I studied a very wide range of Vedic writings for about 30 years. What I wrote about the hotri and his ritviks is the general system used during large, formal sacrifices in the classical Vedic period.

[Kulapavana]

 

Would Krsna dictate any less of a plan to his humble Acarya?

 

 

That is not how I see it. There is no scriptural basis to believe that whatever SP did or said was dictated by Krsna. He did not say such a thing either. You are simply extrapolating some narrow statements into the realm of pure fantasy.

[suchandra]

 

I have never visited India but I studied a very wide range of Vedic writings for about 30 years. What I wrote about the hotri and his ritviks is the general system used during large, formal sacrifices in the classical Vedic period.

 

Better not to visit India, it easily happens that you come back and preach that the society should be divided into four classes of men: the first-class men - lazy intelligent; second-class men - busy intelligent; and third-class men - lazy fool; and fourth-class men - busy fool.

[sevabhakta]

 

That is not how I see it. There is no scriptural basis to believe that whatever SP did or said was dictated by Krsna. He did not say such a thing either. You are simply extrapolating some narrow statements into the realm of pure fantasy.

 

Perhaps instead of how "you" see it, see it through the eyes of sastra.

 

Antya 5.71

PURPORT

One is forbidden to accept the guru, or spiritual master, as an ordinary human being (gurusu nara-matih). When Ramananda Raya spoke to Pradyumna Misra, Pradyumna Misra could understand that Ramananda Raya was not an ordinary human being. A spiritually advanced person who acts with authority, as the spiritual master, speaks as the Supreme Personality of Godhead dictates from within. Thus it is not he that is personally speaking. When a pure devotee or spiritual master speaks, what he says should be accepted as having been directly spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the parampara system.

CC Adi 8.78

TEXT

ei grantha lekhaya more 'madana-mohana'

amara likhana yena sukera pathana

SYNONYMS

ei—this; grantha—great scripture; lekhaya—causes me to write; more—unto me; madana-mohana—the Deity; amara—my; likhana—writing; yena—like; sukera—of the parrot; pathana—responding.

TRANSLATION

Actually Sri Caitanya-caritamrta is not my writing but the dictation of Sri Madana-mohana. My writing is like the repetition of a parrot.

PURPORT

This should be the attitude of all devotees. When the Supreme Personality of Godhead recognizes a devotee, He gives him intelligence and dictates how he may go back home, back to Godhead. This is confirmed in Srimad Bhagavad-gita (10.10):

tesam satata-yuktanam

bhajatam priti-purvakam

dadami buddhi-yogam tam

yena mam upayanti te

"To those who are constantly devoted to serving Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me." The opportunity to engage in the transcendental loving service of the Lord is open to everyone because every living entity is constitutionally a servant of the Lord. To engage in the service of the Lord is the natural function of the living entity, but because he is covered by the influence of maya, the material energy, he thinks it to be a very difficult task.

 

But if he places himself under the guidance of a spiritual master and does everything sincerely, immediately the Lord, who is situated within everyone's heart, dictates how to serve Him (dadami buddhi-yogam tam). The Lord gives this direction, and thus the devotee's life becomes perfect. Whatever a pure devotee does is done by the dictation of the Supreme Lord. Thus it is confirmed by the author of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta that whatever he wrote was written under the direction of the Sri Madana-mohana Deity.

 

SB 13.15.45 Purport

A person in full Krsna consciousness acts by the dictation of Krsna. In the beginning of Krsna consciousness, dictation is received through the transparent medium of the spiritual master. When one is sufficiently trained and acts in submissive faith and love for Krsna under the direction of the bona fide spiritual master, the dovetailing process becomes more firm and accurate. This stage of devotional service by the devotee in Krsna consciousness is the most perfect stage of the yoga system. At this stage, Krsna, or the Supersoul, dictates from within, while from without the devotee is helped by the spiritual master, who is the bona fide representative of Krsna. From within He helps the devotee as caitya, for He is seated within the heart of everyone. Understanding that God is seated within everyone’s heart is not, however, sufficient. One has to be acquainted with God from both within and without, and one must take dictation from within and without to act in Krsna consciousness. This is the highest perfectional stage of the human form of life and the topmost perfection of all yoga.

 

SSR Ch. 5, snippet:

From the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita we learn very clearly that Arjuna in the beginning did not want to fight with his relatives, but after understanding the Bhagavad-gita, when he dovetailed his consciousness with the superconsciousness of Krsna, his consciousness was Krsna consciousness. A person in full Krsna consciousness acts by the dictation of Krsna, and so Arjuna agreed to fight the Battle of Kuruksetra.

In the beginning of Krsna consciousness this dictation of the Lord is received through the transparent medium of the spiritual master. When one is sufficiently trained and acts with submissive faith and love for Krsna, under the direction of the bona fide spiritual master, the dovetailing process becomes more firm and accurate. At this stage Krsna dictates from within. From without, the devotee is helped by the spiritual master, the bona fide representative of Krsna, and from within the Lord helps the devotee as caitya-guru, being seated within the heart of everyone.

 

Back to Basics?

 

Never to late.

 

Hari Bol

 

[sevabhakta]

 

I have never visited India but I studied a very wide range of Vedic writings for about 30 years. What I wrote about the hotri and his ritviks is the general system used during large, formal sacrifices in the classical Vedic period.

 

Well, lets stick with the Cheif Sattvika Purana as authority, and the Sanskrit dictionary as back up.

 

Great, so according to the Bhagavatam and the Sanskrit dictionary, the Hotri is one of four ritviks, though perhaps he holds the key function being the most qualified to be transparent to the highest dimension of blessing power which unbinds the samskara.

 

 

SB 7.3.30 Purport

 

The Vedic ritualistic ceremonies, the knowledge thereof, and the person who agrees to perform them are inspired by the Supreme Soul. As confirmed in Bhagavad-gita, mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca: [bg. 15.15] from the Lord come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. The Supersoul is situated in everyone’s heart (sarvasya caham hrdi sannivistah, isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese ’rjuna tisthati [bg. 18.61]), and when one is advanced in Vedic knowledge, the Supersoul gives him directions. Acting as Supersoul, the Lord gives inspiration to a suitable person to perform the Vedic ritualistic ceremonies. In this connection, four classes of priests, known as rtvik, are required. They are mentioned as hota, adhvaryu, brahma and udgata.

 

In the text of SB 9.1.15 we see that during the Sraddha sacrifice for Manu to have sons, Vasistha was considered the family priest (adhvaryuna) And Srila Prabhupada (dictated by Krsna) called him Ritvik in charge of Telling the Hotri priest what to do, or thus the Cheif priest of the sacrifice.

 

 

 

presito ’dhvaryuna hota

vyacarat tat samahitah

grhite havisi vaca

vasat-karam grnan dvijah

SYNONYMS

presitah—being told to execute the sacrifice; adhvaryuna—by the rtvik priest; hota—the priest in charge of offering oblations; vyacarat—executed; tat—that (sacrifice); samahitah—with great attention; grhite havisi—upon taking the clarified butter for the first oblation; vaca—by chanting the mantra; vasat-karam—the mantra beginning with the word vasat; grnan—reciting; dvijah—the brahmana.

TRANSLATION

Told by the chief priest “Now offer oblations,” the person in charge of oblations took clarified butter to offer. He then remembered the request of Manu’s wife and performed the sacrifice while chanting the word “vasat.”

 

 

As you may recall from my previous post, according to the Sanskrit dictionary, the Ritvik is known by his state of Rtvij, or empowerment to know the proper time to initiate the sacrifice.

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=3><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top>Rtvij</TD><TD vAlign=top>mfn. (fr. %{yaj}) , sacrificing at the proper time , sacrificing regularly ; </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

And who is qualified to know such things? The Head Ritvik of any sacrifice is a qualified as a brahmana according to the standards of the most recent....

 

Acarya. Ideal teacher and preacher who revives God Consciousness in a sleeping population, often by using the divine lord's system of engaging those he is teaching by organizing them according to guna and karma so they may dovetail their personal tendencies in a sacrifical way.

 

The acarya makes the first sacrifice. He comes to the Madhayma platform and plays the brahminical role of the Supreme Lord Krsna's ritvik by offering the results of each formal sacrifice he performs to Lord Visnu or Krsna through the Cheif Ritvik of Lord visnu, Agni Hotra Prabhu, and this by the authority of his Spiritual Master Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, who he represented in essence by implementing Srila Bhaktisiddhantas exact sadhana system, give or take a few adjustments for the entrance fee.

 

After leaving behind the debacle of his godbrother's lack of chastity to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's order, he took the essential structure west, and installed that Daivi Varnasrama Style Matha as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's ritvik, and took full charge of the role of Hotri during the formal introduction, creation, and maintenance of the new Iskcon matha society he founded and headed up as a Madhyama preacher.

 

His most qualified brahminical men are to represent him in this regard, and his order was to stay as ritvik while serving in Iskcon.

 

All speculation and opinions aside, this is backed up by Guru, Sastra, and quite a few Sadhu's I might add.

 

Hare Krsna

[Kulapavana]

 

After leaving behind the debacle of his godbrother's lack of chastity to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's order, he took the essential structure west, and installed that Daivi Varnasrama Style Matha as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's ritvik...

 

Prabhupada never presented himself as a ritvik, and in the entire Vedic tradition there is no connection between sacrificial functions of ritvija priests and guruship. You are simply spinning yarns of conjectures and extrapolations.

[Kulapavana]

 

"When the Supreme Personality of Godhead recognizes a devotee, He gives him intelligence and dictates how he may go back home, back to Godhead."

 

here is the key to understanding the use of the word "dictation" in Prabhupada's writings. It is used here in the general sense of "giving direction" and not "word for word dictation". that also squares off with observable reality and other statements SP makes where he refers to some statements as "his opinions", or even "educated guesses".

 

again, you are extrapolating meanings that were never intended.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Well, there is such a prohibition.

Shastra and the acharyas say that overendeavering for mundane things that are very difficult to attain is prohibited.

 

Such silly remarks actually can be refuted with shastra.

The ritvik system really can't be if you understand the power, authority and position a true acharya and representative of Krishna actually possesses.

 

So, your efforts to debunk the ritvik idea with silly comparisons fails miserably.

 

In that case, nobody should ever run a marathon, period.

 

You're funny, shastrically defeating an *analogy*.

 

Since subtlety is often lost on you, Prabhu, the point of the silly analogy is that: just because something is not specifically prohibited does not mean that it's a good idea (enough negatives in there for you?).

 

To follow the Judeo-Vaishnava Ritvik system is like hopping through the marathon on one leg--it's a needlessly difficult endeavor (and by your shastric reference, ought to be avoided).

 

 

If you can show some shastric support for your claim that a ritvik system is prohibited then please do.

Otherwise, you are just trying to demean the faith of others with your humorous jabs at the ritvik system.

See, this is why I believe you do not understand what I'm saying. I never said the ritvik system is prohibited, just that it's needlessly complicated and difficult.

 

 

How easily we forget that Sridhar Maharaja appointed Govinda Maharaja as ritvik "from now on he will initiate on my behalf as ritvik".

 

Maybe you could show a little more respect for a system that Srila Sridhar Maharaja also employed in his mission.

No. I recall your preposterous assertions just fine. I hope you will pardon me for accepting that Srila Govinda Maharaja and his associates have a better grasp of what Srila Sridhar Maharaja's wishes are/were than you do.

 

 

The result of deviating from the ritvik system at SCSMath is that after Govinda Maharaja is gone the mission will fizzle-out into an ISKCON-like camp of dozens of little gurus all competing for disciples as career gurus in the Matha.

That remains to be seen. That is not at all what I'm expecting. Whatever the case is, I have no doubt that Mahaprabhu's Sankirttan movement will gloriously continue.

[sevabhakta]

 

Prabhupada never presented himself as a ritvik, and in the entire Vedic tradition there is no connection between sacrificial functions of ritvija priests and guruship. You are simply spinning yarns of conjectures and extrapolations.

 

Some people have a hard time wrapping their conditioned mind around the concept of simultenaity. Which is that two phenomenon may both be manifesting at the same time.

 

The root cause of which is the Acintya bhedabehda tattva.

 

So Srila Prabhupada did not have to officially say anything.

 

He was an uttama preaching at the madhyama level. He did not have to tell anyone he was acting as the head brahmana of his society. Flexible minded people logically deduce such things.

 

A closed mind will always use a one or the other argument to defend a position.

 

And your statement is wrong as it stands anyway that there is no connection between sacrificial priests and guru ship.

 

It is not that all a person did was eat sleep mate defend and be a priest for sacrafices.

 

Qualified brahmana's had many varieites of duties, some qualified enough to be head priests. They performed most family samskara sacrifices yes. But they did so many other things, including to be the spiritual master or Guru of the all the Varnas, including directly instructing them in their spiritually based varna duties. A sanyassin brahmana was the spiritual master or guru of all the brahmanas, and orders of society, including the asramas.

 

Vaisnava 101.

 

It is inevitable that a qualified chaste brahmana who has the knowledge of the time to approach each family for all the different samskara yajnas, and respond to Royal invitation for collective yajnas (definition of Rtvij) gained that knowledge from his guru, and passes such along to the younger brahmanas, as GURU.

 

Srila Prabhupada also played the role of consummate statesman, shrewd businessman, able physical servant, and remained uttama adhikari Guru.

[sevabhakta]

 

here is the key to understanding the use of the word "dictation" in Prabhupada's writings. It is used here in the general sense of "giving direction" and not "word for word dictation". that also squares off with observable reality and other statements SP makes where he refers to some statements as "his opinions", or even "educated guesses".

 

again, you are extrapolating meanings that were never intended.

 

Again, activities are not exclusively occuring in a vaccuum, unless you want to pretend they are to try to win an arguement.

 

You take one instance of the use of the word "dictation" where it is used to illustrate one facet of the nature of "dictation", meaning giving direction, and then extend that to be THE KEY TO UNDERSTANDING THE USE OF THE WORD.

 

As if there is not one time where it is implied that it means "word for word dictation".

 

Which is a really weak position to take given all the evidence.

 

The dictates of Supersoul include hidden manipulations of energies on our behalf, subtle nudges and trickery to guide us when we are not conscious, faintly heard verbal confirmations or chastisements heard during deeply introspective moments regarding decisions we made, and yes, the Lord in the feature most dear to an advanced spiritual master will manifest to his transcendental senses and give personal dictation regarding whatever he sees fit due to his view of his own Lila.

 

It is truly gross misjudgement on your part to imply that the Supreme person who has a personally manifest relationship in the heart of the mindspace of a pure devotee cannot and does not utilize direct and conversational speech.

 

But this is what you seem to need to resort to in an attempt to stave off the inevitable. That I am right.

 

Say these words three times each and let it sink in. "Transparent Via Medium."

 

Then these words: "Under the direction of Madana Mohan."

 

Krsna's plan. Krsna's lila. Krsna's acarya. Krsna's acarya's societal system.

 

Krsna's Iskcon.

 

Or are we to become the devotees of the mysterious impersonal God substance within who guides our lives inconceivably without our knowing or understanding?

[Kulapavana]

 

But this is what you seem to need to resort to in an attempt to stave off the inevitable. That I am right.

 

Say these words three times each and let it sink in. "Transparent Via Medium."

 

Then these words: "Under the direction of Madana Mohan."

 

 

Words are very nice, but then there is reality which we can all observe and which helps us understand the real meaning of these words.

 

If Krsna really dictated Bhagavad-gita to Srila Prabhupada word for word as your interpretation implies then Krsna needed quite a bit of help to express Himself in proper English. And so on, and so forth...

 

By faith alone you can believe anything you like, but very few people will be CONVINCED by such faith alone, especially when observable facts counter your claims. Need I bring up the Moon distance for example?

 

You can easily say: the plan was perfect, only people which were to carry it out were unqualified. The truth is, if a plan does not take into consideration the limitations of the people who are going to carry it out then such a plan is anything but perfect.

 

So things like that help the rational people understand reality, instead of living in a fantasy land.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

So things like that help the rational people understand reality, instead of living in a fantasy land.

 

I seem to be able to manage "rational" just fine when I'm so inclined, but I prefer to live in my "fantasy land".

 

Maybe that's just me.

 

I have no problem accepting that, when Srila Prabhupada invited the Lord to make him His puppet, the Lord happily obliged.

[sevabhakta]

 

Words are very nice, but then there is reality which we can all observe and which helps us understand the real meaning of these words.

 

If Krsna really dictated Bhagavad-gita to Srila Prabhupada word for word as your interpretation implies then Krsna needed quite a bit of help to express Himself in proper English. And so on, and so forth...

 

By faith alone you can believe anything you like, but very few people will be CONVINCED by such faith alone, especially when observable facts counter your claims. Need I bring up the Moon distance for example?

 

You can easily say: the plan was perfect, only people which were to carry it out were unqualified. The truth is, if a plan does not take into consideration the limitations of the people who are going to carry it out then such a plan is anything but perfect.

 

So things like that help the rational people understand reality, instead of living in a fantasy land.

 

How convenient to a doubting Thomas to still be relying on the "reality" that we can all observe, all certainly alluding to all us conditioned jivas, who cannot rely on our senses of observation because of the 4 defects, don't forget about which philosophy we are using here, especially at such a crucial juncture.

 

Your use of ascribing the most extreme example of Krsna dictating every word of the Gita to my use of the word dictate is just a thinly veiled attempt to defeat me by a straw man arguement. And then to cry the "real meaning of the word" as Srila Prabhupada used it generally excludes another frequently used meaning and understanding of the word is facetious.

 

By faith alone? What about transcendental knowledge passed on as it is? What about the import of transcendental knowledge being revealed in a perceptable way to the illiterate who surrender to Guru?

 

Why throw out the transcendental aspect of things?

 

 

 

SB 3.26.30 Purport.

 

Doubt, misapprehension, correct apprehension, memory and sleep, as determined by their different functions, are said to be the distinct characteristics of intelligence.

PURPORT

Doubt is one of the important functions of intelligence; blind acceptance of something does not give evidence of intelligence. Therefore the word saàçaya is very important; in order to cultivate intelligence, one should be doubtful in the beginning. But doubting is not very favorable when information is received from the proper source. In Bhagavad-gétä the Lord says that doubting the words of the authority is the cause of destruction.

 

Don't let the fact that some guy cheated you allow yourself to be bitterly blinded to transcendental authority that you can accept "blindly" as you would say, to hell with your material vision, there are none so blind as those who choose their material perception to counter the Sastra.

 

The path of doubt is that of self destruction.

 

Especially to doubt the authority of Guru and sastra on a subject that you have only the second hand reporting of a group of tried and true atheistic scientists and politicians who relish in their four defects and twist a great percent of their so-called "conclusions" to fit propaganda efforts based upon fanatical pseudo-religious or plain sectarian facist domination schemes.

 

If you haven't gone to the moon, if you haven't experienced first hand some phenomenon, which someone swears to you is their experienced truth and it contradicts guru and sastra, and you just buy it as an excuse to continue to reject Guru, "see the Hofstra University PHD Joe Schmo has proved that the living conscious soul results from a mixture of chemicals".

 

I know you like to use extreme examples, but a defective vision is one which has at least one error, then the whole formula is useless right?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Yeah, baby, *NOW* we're *talking*!!

 

Er, I mean, well-said, Prabhu!

 

This is a much more palatable topic than that other, dry topic, don't you think?

 

 

How convenient to a doubting Thomas to still be relying on the "reality" that we can all observe, all certainly alluding to all us conditioned jivas, who cannot rely on our senses of observation because of the 4 defects, don't forget about which philosophy we are using here, especially at such a crucial juncture.

 

Your use of ascribing the most extreme example of Krsna dictating every word of the Gita to my use of the word dictate is just a thinly veiled attempt to defeat me by a straw man arguement. And then to cry the "real meaning of the word" as Srila Prabhupada used it generally excludes another frequently used meaning and understanding of the word is facetious.

 

By faith alone? What about transcendental knowledge passed on as it is? What about the import of transcendental knowledge being revealed in a perceptable way to the illiterate who surrender to Guru?

 

Why throw out the transcendental aspect of things?

 

 

 

Don't let the fact that some guy cheated you allow yourself to be bitterly blinded to transcendental authority that you can accept "blindly" as you would say, to hell with your material vision, there are none so blind as those who choose their material perception to counter the Sastra.

 

The path of doubt is that of self destruction.

 

Especially to doubt the authority of Guru and sastra on a subject that you have only the second hand reporting of a group of tried and true atheistic scientists and politicians who relish in their four defects and twist a great percent of their so-called "conclusions" to fit propaganda efforts based upon fanatical pseudo-religious or plain sectarian facist domination schemes.

 

If you haven't gone to the moon, if you haven't experienced first hand some phenomenon, which someone swears to you is their experienced truth and it contradicts guru and sastra, and you just buy it as an excuse to continue to reject Guru, "see the Hofstra University PHD Joe Schmo has proved that the living conscious soul results from a mixture of chemicals".

 

I know you like to use extreme examples, but a defective vision is one which has at least one error, then the whole formula is useless right?

[sevabhakta]

Well Murali, I have yet to find anything so sublime and inconceivably wonderful than the discovery that I can freely choose to accept descending authority from someone I trust. My choice.

 

It is also inconceivable good fortune that such trust and recognition was born in me, and all I can say on that is that the experience is worth a thousand words.

 

Preaching about it to those who haven't let it in yet is another story. The defenses they put up are actually painful to my sensual perception on that level, and it is the greatest irony that we can mistake what is really a gift for an attack, and reject it. And we can experiencing someone rejecting something we KNOW would be better for them then what they are holding on to, and be truly disappointed FOR them, and then just resort to the shelter of knowing Krsna isn't done with them yet!

 

And for those cheated by incompetent pretenders to spiritual mastership...

 

They are once bitten, twice shy, but ultimately this steels a persons resolve against the shysters who would make one their b!+(# and keeps one focused inward until nice and ripe for the plucking by lucky number 3, a True Guru who admits only to be a willing disciple of his Guru, a servant of the servant, embodied in the form of a personal confidante, mentor, and well wisher, who never deviated from the order of his Guru.

 

Some call it idealistic and not realistic, but hey, Krsna consciousness is real idealism, if we believe in Krsna originating all possibilities for pleasures drawn from the simultaneous fulfillment of his devotees greatest desires in that realm of service. Win win.

 

All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga.