Self-Appointed Spiritual Master

[krsna]

“Is the chanting of Hare Krsna the answer to living successfully in today’s world?”

 

 

Srila Prabhupada:

 

Oh, that is the only successful living in this, today’s world. So long people do not understand it, they are still in the darkness. This is the only. Why it is the only? Just see these boys, these girls. I have not imported from India. I came here single-handed with seven dollars. I have got hundreds of students like that. How they have changed, their character, their behavior. I have given them life. Some of them are married. They are living very nicely. They have got children, and they have given up their all bad habits. You see? They are not, I mean to say, eating meat. They have no illicit sex life. They are strictly vegetarian. They are preparing nice foodstuff from vegetable and grains. They do not take part, intoxication. They do not smoke even. Just see practically. If everyone becomes like them, then what is the trouble? If you encourage them to indulge in illicit sex life, to become intoxicants, to gambler and eating everything, without any discrimination, then how you can expect to have very good men in this world? They are mad. So this question, that “Is this chanting of Hare Krsna the answer to living successfully in today’s…?”

[url="http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/"]

What do you mean by “successfully living”?

Successfully living does not mean that you work hard just like cats and dogs, and eat something and have sex life at night. That is not successful life. That successful life is there even in the cats and dogs and hogs. The hogs are also laboring very hard. The cats and dogs, they are also for their food. And the sex is there. Everything is there. That is not successful life. Real successful life is how to understand his real constitutional position as part and parcel of the Supreme Lord. That is successful life. This is not successful life. What is this successful life? I see… I have got so many students. They are well-qualified. But they have got… When they work, they have to work so hard, they go at six o’clock to the working and comes again at six o’clock, all day, tired. They lost all vitality, all sense. Is that successful life, simply for one morsel of food, working so hard? And unless one works so hard, he cannot eat. We have created a civilization that one must earn thousands of dollars, then he can live like a gentleman. Is that successful life? And for earning that thousands of dollars he has to work so hard, just like animal, beast. No. That is not successful life. Successful life is that, that we should make our bodily necessities of life as far as required, not more than that. I want to eat something. God has given sufficient food. You grow. You live anywhere. You grow foodstuff. You grow grains. You grow fruits. You grow vegetables. Keep cows. Take milk. You can live anywhere. You haven’t got to go fifty miles off with a car to attend your office at six o’clock with velocity of hundred miles’ speed. Is that successful life, do you think? So where is successful life? We are proposing successful life.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Lecture — Hawaii, March 23, 1969

[Kali Chela Hunter]

“Is the chanting of Hare Krsna the answer to living successfully in today’s world?”

Srila Prabhupada:

 

Oh, that is the only successful living in this, today’s world. So long people do not understand it, they are still in the darkness.

I suppose I should seek out a self appointed guru to enlighten that statement for me

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Here, we see the mood of the Vaishnava:

 

 

 

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In England I have seen, although they have lost their empire, still, people get free education, free medical treatment. And England does not produce practically anything except potato. They, the government imports so many eatables so that people may not suffer for want of food. So that is the way of good government from the time immemorial.

 

Here, we see Srila Prabhupada *praising* the kali chelas, no? The vaishnava sees the good in all, even the demoniac persons.

 

 

we neither take moral instruction, neither Vasudeva's instruction, neither we have got any intelligence. This is Kali-yuga. Mudha. Generally, we are mudha, especially in the Kali-yuga.

 

Here, we see the humility of the Vaishnava, including himself in the generalization.

 

 

 

Vaisnavas, they do not accept the philosophy of Buddha or Sankaracarya. Buddha's philosophy: zero, sunyavadi; and Sankara's philosophy: nirvisesa-vadi, impersonal. So we defy these, nirvisesa-sunyavadi. But we have got all respect for them. Don't think that we disrespect. Kesava dhrta-buddha-sarira jaya jagadisa hare. And the Vaisnavas know Sankaracarya. Sankara, svayam sankara, he is incarnation of Lord Siva, and Lord Buddha is incarnation of Krsna. So they come for particular purpose, to benefit the whole world.

 

 

If the Vaishnava offers respect to those whose philosophies they do not even accept, what is the mood of the Vaishnava towards a sincere Vaishnava acharya (regardless of his/her pedigree)?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

you obviously like to be cheated! it seems you like to laugh too at others,ideal fodder for the cheaters

 

I'm not laughing at you, just your foolishness (I pray never to confuse the two).

 

I try to laugh at my own foolishness as well.

 

Yes, I like to be cheated, but I want to be cheated by Krishna, the Best of the cheaters and liars.

[theist]

 

ISKCON identifies diksa with a fire sacrifice even when it's by a fallen guru.

A friend of mine was initiated by Rameswara (Robert Grant) up to brahmana.

He never chanted gayatri and doesn't take the diksa seriously anymore. But the temple devotees still treat him like he's initiated. I on the other hand did not fall for this guru and am treated second class because I didn't get the phoney diksa.

 

This is Krsna's grace upon you cbrahma. You have no entrance into that less than genuine circle of "the initiated's" association. That is a blessing because Krsna consciousness is not a tea party to begin with.

 

You are a loser. But gve thanks. The first step in actual Krsna conscious surrender is to admit total defeat at the hands of maya. You have lost at kama. You have lost at economic accumulation. These have failed to satisfy you. There is no place for you in heaven either. Religous circles won't fully accept you. Face it you are a Loser in all material attempts to find accomodation and happiness.

 

Head north cbrahma and don't look back.

[cbrahma]

 

This is Krsna's grace upon you cbrahma. You have no entrance into that less than genuine circle of "the initiated's" association. That is a blessing because Krsna consciousness is not a tea party to begin with.

 

You are a loser. But gve thanks. The first step in actual Krsna conscious surrender is to admit total defeat at the hands of maya. You have lost at kama. You have lost at economic accumulation. These have failed to satisfy you. There is no place for you in heaven either. Religous circles won't fully accept you. Face it you are a Loser in all material attempts to find accomodation and happiness.

 

Head north cbrahma and don't look back.

Thanks. That's a consolation. I think.

[theist]

 

“Is the chanting of Hare Krsna the answer to living successfully in today’s world?”

Srila Prabhupada:

 

Oh, that is the only successful living in this, today’s world. So long people do not understand it, they are still in the darkness.

I suppose I should seek out a self appointed guru to enlighten that statement for me

 

Point taken.

[Kulapavana]

 

Well theres your answer,it is this kind of attitude that breeds and fosters "self appointed gurus"

 

the "self appointed gurus" you complain about are bred and fed by the guru fairy tales circulating in Iskcon.

 

- the fairy tale of guru's absolute authority

- the fairy tale of guru's absolute power

- the fairy tale of guru's absolute knowledge

- the fairy tale of guru being "as good as God" in most respects

- the fairy tale of full faith and complete surrender to the guru's mission as the basic requirement for a disciple

- the fairy tale of the need to reject logic and reason whenever dealing with one's guru

 

if you teach and demand blind faith, why should you be surprised some people (pretender gurus) abuse their power, and others (their followers) get cheated and exploited?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

- the fairy tale of the need to reject logic and reason whenever dealing with one's guru

 

 

There's no *need* to reject logic and reasoning when hearing from Guru, just as there's no *need* for us to stop our deluded suffering.

 

However, it is true that our faulty logic and shallow reasoning will not serve us well in listening attentively to Guru. Rather, they will simply distract us from the true message of hope.

 

http://vedabase.net/bg/7/15/

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, in propagating the bhāgavata-dharma, or activities of the devotees, has recommended that people submissively hear the message of the Personality of Godhead. The essence of this message is Bhagavad-gītā. The lowest amongst human beings can be delivered by this submissive hearing process only, but unfortunately they even refuse to give an aural reception to these messages, and what to speak of surrendering to the will of the Supreme Lord? Narādhamas, or the lowest of mankind, will fully neglect the prime duty of the human being.

 

More like that here:

http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Avedabase.net+submissive+aural+reception&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[Kulapavana]

 

There's no *need* to reject logic and reasoning when hearing from Guru, just as there's no *need* for us to stop our deluded suffering.

 

However, it is true that our faulty logic and shallow reasoning will not serve us well in listening attentively to Guru. Rather, they will simply distract us from the true message of hope.

 

It is funny how that "our faulty logic and shallow reasoning" served us very well when it comes to finding Krsna consciousness and a proper guru in the first place, but now we have to replace it with blind faith... My BS-meter goes off-scale on that one

[Kali Chela Hunter]

O Vaishnava, you are an ocean of mercy. Please shower your compassion upon me. Give me the shade of your lotus feet and purify my polluted heart. I am following you, begging-Sri Krishna is yours-you have the power-give him to me!

O Vaishnava where are you?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

It is funny how that "our faulty logic and shallow reasoning" served us very well when it comes to finding Krsna consciousness and a proper guru in the first place, but now we have to replace it with blind faith... My BS-meter goes off-scale on that one

 

And *I* call BS. It was Krishna's Mercy that you found a proper Guru. You can't take any credit there except for your own sincerity.

[cbrahma]

Without the assurance of Caitya guru in the heart, sastra and sadhu the whole guru issues is scary as hell. Can you say Jim Jones.

[krsna]

<BIG>PATEL:</BIG><BIG></B> It is the church, Christian church, which has defaced Christism. </BIG>

<BIG></BIG>

<BIG>PRABHUPADA: </BIG><BIG>Hare Krishna.</B> Everywhere the followers make the whole thing bungled. </BIG>

 

 

<BIG>Bombay room conversation 5.1.74</BIG>

 

[Guruvani]

 

Diksha is not a formality.

 

Agreed.

Diksha is not the formality.

Diksha is something other than the formality.

 

Diksha is the bringing into Krishna consciousness through instruction.

 

I consider "uninitiatied devotees" like Theist and Ghari to be no less and even more qualified that some "initiated" devotees flaunting their formal ceremony as something more valuable and spiritually initiating that the vani of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Agreed 100%.

The formality is not real initiation.

Real initiation is the indoctrination into Krishna consciousness that these devotees have received by taking the vani and siksha of Srila Prabhupada.

 

The formal advocates sometimes consider their formal ceremony to make them more spiritual or more qualified than those without the formality.

 

I don't buy into such externals.

It's a phony front.

[theist]

 

Thanks. That's a consolation. I think.

LOL. Yes it is one I realized along time ago by experiencing exactly what you are. No formal intiation for me either. Blessing in disquise brother.

[Guruvani]

when the Yamadutas came after Ajamila, they were not asking "does he have formal diksha?"

No, Ajamila chanted the name of the Lord and was saved.

 

In the end, the formal diksha cannot save you and the lack thereof will not prohibit you from attaining liberation if you can remember the Lord and call his name at the time of leaving this body.

 

When you see the light you will know what it is.

When you see the Paramatama you will know who he is.

As such, you will attain the goal.

 

Non-devotees would see the light or the Supersoul as something terrible or dangerous.

But, the devotees will recognise the Paramatma at death and surrender to him and be saved.

 

That is the gift of Krishna consciousness in the innermost chambers of the heart.

[krsna]

"Regarding your question of Paramatma: you are fortunate enough for your sincere service, Krishna as Paramatma Who is sitting within your heart is now dictating. Krishna is so kind that He wants to help us as Spiritual Master in two ways. He helps us from within as Caitya Guru and He expands Himself externally as Siksa Guru (as instructor) and diksa Guru (initiator). So the principle is that whatever you are instructed by the Caitya Guru internally may be confirmed by the instructor or initiator externally. Then your progress will be complete."

Srila Prabhupada Letter to Sivananda, 05-21-69

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"Well initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge... knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing."

Srila Prabhupada Press Interview, 10-16-76, Chandigarh

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"The initiating spiritual master (diksa-guru) shows his causeless mercy by giving his disciples instructions in chanting the mantra. By so doing, he points the disciples in the direction of the truths pertaining to the Supreme Lord, Sri Krsna. I consider the numerous instructing spiritual masters (siksa-gurus) to be more important, for they show more mercy by training the sadhakas in all the essential aspects of sadhana-bhakti."

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur, Kalyana-kalpataru

<CENTER></CENTER>

 

"Prabhupada: "Then so siksa and diksa-guru... A siksa-guru who instructs against the instruction of spiritual, he is not a siksa guru. He is a demon. Siksa-guru, diksa-guru means... Sometimes a diksa-guru is not present always. Therefore one can take learning, instruction, from an advanced devotee. That is called the siksa-guru. Siksa-guru does not mean he is speaking something against the teachings of the diksa-guru/Acarya. He is not a siksa-guru. He is a rascal."

Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Bhagavad-gita 17:1-3, 07-04-74, Honolulu

<CENTER></CENTER>

 

"If one develops love for Krsna by Krsna conscious activities, one can know the Supreme Absolute Truth, but he who tries to understand God simply by logical arguments will not succeed, nor will he get a taste for unalloyed devotion. The secret is that one must submissively listen to those who know perfectly the science of God, and one must begin the mode of service regulated by the preceptor. A devotee already attracted by the name, form, qualities, etc., of the Supreme Lord may be directed to his specific manner of devotional service; he need not waste time in approaching the Lord through logic. The expert spiritual master knows well how to engage his disciple's energy in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and thus he engages a devotee in a specific devotional service according to his special tendency. A devotee must have only one initiating spiritual master because in the scriptures acceptance of more than one is always forbidden. There is no limit, however, to the number of instructing spiritual masters one may accept. Generally a spiritual master who constantly instructs a disciple in spiritual science becomes his initiating spiritual master later on.

 

One should always remember that a person who is reluctant to accept a spiritual master and be initiated is sure to be baffled in his endeavor to go back to Godhead. One who is not properly initiated may present himself as a great devotee, but in fact he is sure to encounter many stumbling blocks on his path of progress toward spiritual realization, with the result that he must continue his term of material existence without relief. Such a helpless person is compared to a ship without a rudder, for such a ship can never reach its destination. It is imperative, therefore, that one accept a spiritual master if he at all desires to gain the favor of the Lord. The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master's instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple. If one thinks that he is above consulting anyone else, including a spiritual master, he is at once an offender at the lotus feet of the Lord. Such an offender can never go back to Godhead. It is imperative that a serious person accept a bona fide spiritual master in terms of the sastric injunctions. Sri Jiva Gosvami advises that one not accept a spiritual master in terms of hereditary or customary social and ecclesiastical conventions. One should simply try to find a genuinely qualified spiritual master for actual advancement in spiritual understanding."

Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi lila 1:35

<CENTER></CENTER>

 

"One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of Uttama-Adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava, or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform, can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore, a disciple should be careful to accept an Uttama-Adhikari as a spiritual master."

Nectar of Instruction, Chapter 5 Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

[suchandra]

 

you obviously like to be cheated! it seems you like to laugh too at others,ideal fodder for the cheaters

Taking into stock what we have right now, almost at the tenth anniversary when the different camps among Western Vaishnavas started to split up and getting more precise in their different preceptions of what is genuine guru-tattva according revealed scripture and the teachings of the sampradaya acaryas - where're we right now?

Outside observers of the ongoing dispute comment it as very similiar to the breaking apart into splinter groups of the past religious history. But is it a peaceful splitting? After ten years one surely can say how things will go on, all the different parties insist upon their conviction. The chance of a peaceful end is without hope - rather the opposite is true the fronts will get hardened even more.

A spiritual dispute for the next 10,000 years? What will be written in the minutes of the Movement of Lord Caitanya's Benediction Moon?

Right after the departure of Srila Prabhupada his movement of spreading the Holy Name in every town and village broke into different groups which never reached the point of mutual consent?

What remains to be seen is how this dispute is rated by people in general.

Something which leads to growth or something that ends and becomes rejected?

My own understanding is that this is not really the mood of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's Sankirtan Movement - disagreement among Lord Caitanya's followers, looks rather like the mixing of rasa with kuruksetra - rasabasa. How does Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu see this development of His Sankirtan Movement?

 

 

A Chronology From 1000BC by Mukunda Charan

http://mukundacharan.wordpress.com/

 

1000 BC - Construction of the Temple of Soloman at Jerusalem

599 - Birth of Mahavir, founder of the Jain religion

563 - Birth of the sage Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama)

479-551 - Confucius

348-428 - Plato

322-384 - Aristotle

3rd c.BC - Buddhism in Sri Lanka

1st c. BC - First recording of Buddha’s teachings in Sri Lanka

4 BC - Birth of Jesus Christ

70 AD - Destruction of he Temple at Jerusalem

301 - Christianity declared a state religion in Armenia

313 - Christianity legalised within the Roman Empire

431 - Palladius consecrated first bishop of the Irish Christians

529 - Closing of the Academy in Athens by the Emperor Justinian

552 - Buddhism in Japan

570 - Birth of the Prophet Muhammad

622 - The migration (hijra) of Muhammad and his followers from Mecca to Medina

742 - Founding of the Great Mosque in Xian, China

787 - First Buddhist monastery in Tibet

862 - Mission of Saints Cyril and Methodius to the Slavs

988 - Conversion of Russia to Christianity

1054 - Final split between eastern and western Christianity

1096 - Massacre of Jews in the Rhineland by Crusaders

1098 - First Crusade

1200 - Zen Buddhism in Japan

1448 - Russian Orthodox Church declared its autonomy from Constantinople

1453 - Fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Turks

1455 - Gutenburg’s first Bible printed using movable type and a printing press

1469 - Birth of Guru Nanak, founder of the Sikh religion

1488 - Advent of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in west Bengal, India

1517 - Martin Luther’s challenge to the church, thus beginning the Protestant Reformation of Western Christianity

1543 - Theory of Copernicus that the sun is the centre of the universe published

1611 - Authorized version of the Bible published in English

1687 - Sir Isaac Newton’s fully-developed theory of gravity published

1896 - Birth of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada; Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s Life and Precepts of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu sent to McGill University

1966 - Inauguration of the International Society For Krishna Consciousness, New York City

1991 - Release of Worldwide Web software by Tim Berners-Lee at CERN

2004 - Installation of Sri Pancha-Tattva Deities, Sri Dhama Mayapur, Bengal

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Having recently watched Elizabeth and Elizabeth: The Golden Age, I can certainly relate with your comments!!

 

Who wants another Catholic/Protestant schizm (as potently described in a recent Dandavats posting by Sripad Indradyumna Swami regarding a recent trip to Northern Ireland)?

 

We *all* desperately need the Mercy of Sri Sri Nitai-Gauranga!

 

 

Taking into stock what we have right now, almost at the tenth anniversary when the different camps among Western Vaishnavas started to split up and getting more precise in their different preceptions of what is genuine guru-tattva according revealed scripture and the teachings of the sampradaya acaryas - where're we right now?

Outside observers of the ongoing dispute comment it as very similiar to the breaking apart into splinter groups of the past religious history. But is it a peaceful splitting? After ten years one surely can say how things will go on, all the different parties insist upon their conviction. The chance of a peaceful end is without hope - rather the opposite is true the fronts will get hardened even more.

A spiritual dispute for the next 10,000 years? What will be written in the minutes of the Movement of Lord Caitanya's Benediction Moon?

Right after the departure of Srila Prabhupada his movement of spreading the Holy Name in every town and village broke into different groups which never reached the point of mutual consent?

What remains to be seen is how this dispute is rated by people in general.

Something which leads to growth or something that ends and becomes rejected?

My own understanding is that this is not really the mood of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's Sankirtan Movement - disagreement among Lord Caitanya's followers, looks rather like the mixing of rasa with kuruksetra - rasabasa. How does Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu see this development of His Sankirtan Movement?

[suchandra]

This post for clarifying Kratu Prabhu's position was posted at chakra.org:

Regarding Kratu Prabhu

 

by Krishna Kripa Dasa

 

Posted October 21, 2007

 

What I know, is that H.G. Kratu Prabhu took first initiation from Srila Prabhupada, but the ceremony as well his chanting beads were handed by Kirtanananda Swami, second he took for KS. I am not seeing anything wrong in his claims that he is Prabhupada´s disciple, because he actually is.

In Iskcon harinam (1st initiation) is regarded more important that gayatri diksha (2nd initiation) while in the Gaudya Math is the contrary.

Those who were initiated till Govardhana puja 1977, are considered Prabhupada´s disciple, after 14 november 1977, are disciples of Srila Prabhupada´s disciples.

GBC passed a resolution that authorised devotees who received harinam from Prabhupada, that they can start initiating whith the permission of the gayatri guru (those who gave them 2nd initiation).

Matsya Avatara Prabhu from Italy has 1st by Prabhupada and 2nd by Bhagavan and he is guru.

Vedavyasa Priya Swami has 1st by Prabhupada and 2nd by Kirtanananda, he is also guru.

Krishna Dasa Swami, never took initiation by Prabhupada, but he met him personally and Prabhupada said that there is no need for him to be initiated, because he was already initiated by a bonafide vaisnava guru.

Now we few devotees who are not Prabhupada disciples and are initiating:

Kadamba Kanana Swami, Maha Vishnu Goswami (gujerati), Bhakti Vigyan Goswami and Chandra Mukha Swami.

What we need are more and more gurus, those who follow Srila Prabhupada, doesnt matter if they were initiated by him, or if they ever saw him or spoke to him.

[cbrahma]

 

This post for clarifying Kratu Prabhu's position was posted at chakra.org:

Regarding Kratu Prabhu

 

by Krishna Kripa Dasa

 

Posted October 21, 2007

 

What I know, is that H.G. Kratu Prabhu took first initiation from Srila Prabhupada, but the ceremony as well his chanting beads were handed by Kirtanananda Swami, second he took for KS. I am not seeing anything wrong in his claims that he is Prabhupada´s disciple, because he actually is.

In Iskcon harinam (1st initiation) is regarded more important that gayatri diksha (2nd initiation) while in the Gaudya Math is the contrary.

Those who were initiated till Govardhana puja 1977, are considered Prabhupada´s disciple, after 14 november 1977, are disciples of Srila Prabhupada´s disciples.

GBC passed a resolution that authorised devotees who received harinam from Prabhupada, that they can start initiating whith the permission of the gayatri guru (those who gave them 2nd initiation).

Matsya Avatara Prabhu from Italy has 1st by Prabhupada and 2nd by Bhagavan and he is guru.

Vedavyasa Priya Swami has 1st by Prabhupada and 2nd by Kirtanananda, he is also guru.

Krishna Dasa Swami, never took initiation by Prabhupada, but he met him personally and Prabhupada said that there is no need for him to be initiated, because he was already initiated by a bonafide vaisnava guru.

Now we few devotees who are not Prabhupada disciples and are initiating:

Kadamba Kanana Swami, Maha Vishnu Goswami (gujerati), Bhakti Vigyan Goswami and Chandra Mukha Swami.

What we need are more and more gurus, those who follow Srila Prabhupada, doesnt matter if they were initiated by him, or if they ever saw him or spoke to him.

ISKCON is up to its bookkeeping eyeballs in gurus. What we need is just one pure devotee, then we can talk guru.