Crusade Against Spirituality

[suchandra]

To give the present ongoing crusade against spirituality a name, almost all religious leaders are agreeing upon it, that it is Richard Dawkins who's the "leading light of the New Atheism movement".

 

 

In the United States, atheists are becoming an ostracized minority. But now evolutionary biologists are trying to turn the tables: According to their argument, religion is the source of evil. Morals and selflessness are not God-given - they are the result of evolution.

Are present Vaishnavas equipped for defeating such kind of really powerful brainiacs like Richard Dawkins? Maybe if all devotees would join together and become a strong preaching force.

 

"Highly intelligent people are mostly atheists," Richard Dawkins says. "Not a single member of either house of Congress admits to being an atheist. It just doesn't add up. Either they're stupid, or they're lying. And have they got a motive for lying? Of course they've got a motive! Everybody knows that an atheist can't get elected."

 

"Many of us saw religion as harmless nonsense. Beliefs might lack all supporting evidence but, we thought, if people needed a crutch for consolation, where's the harm? September 11th changed all that. Revealed faith is not harmless nonsense, it can be lethally dangerous nonsense. Dangerous because it gives people unshakeable confidence in their own righteousness. Dangerous because it gives them false courage to kill themselves, which automatically removes normal barriers to killing others. Dangerous because it teaches enmity to others labelled only by a difference of inherited tradition. And dangerous because we have all bought into a weird respect, which uniquely protects religion from normal criticism. Let's now stop being so damned respectful!

 

Selected documentaries by R.Dawkins

• Nice Guys Finish First
  
• The Blind Watchmaker
  
• The God Who Wasn't There
  
• Atheism: A Rough History of Disbelief
  
• The Atheism Tapes
  
• The Root of All Evil?
  
• Growing Up In The Universe
  
• The Enemies of Reason

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

He doesn't sound all that smart to me. If he buys the official explanation for the 9/11 "attacks" on the US, then he is sorely misguided.

 

So, I guess Einstein (and a host of other faithful scientists) wasn't "highly intelligent", eh?

 

 

To give the present ongoing crusade against spirituality a name, almost all religious leaders are agreeing upon it, that it is Richard Dawkins who's the "leading light of the New Atheism movement".

 

 

Are present Vaishnavas equipped for defeating such kind of really powerful brainiacs like Richard Dawkins? Maybe if all devotees would join together and become a strong preaching force.

 

"Highly intelligent people are mostly atheists," Richard Dawkins says. "Not a single member of either house of Congress admits to being an atheist. It just doesn't add up. Either they're stupid, or they're lying. And have they got a motive for lying? Of course they've got a motive! Everybody knows that an atheist can't get elected."

 

"Many of us saw religion as harmless nonsense. Beliefs might lack all supporting evidence but, we thought, if people needed a crutch for consolation, where's the harm? September 11th changed all that. Revealed faith is not harmless nonsense, it can be lethally dangerous nonsense. Dangerous because it gives people unshakeable confidence in their own righteousness. Dangerous because it gives them false courage to kill themselves, which automatically removes normal barriers to killing others. Dangerous because it teaches enmity to others labelled only by a difference of inherited tradition. And dangerous because we have all bought into a weird respect, which uniquely protects religion from normal criticism. Let's now stop being so damned respectful!

 

Selected documentaries by R.Dawkins

• Nice Guys Finish First
  
• The Blind Watchmaker
  
• The God Who Wasn't There
  
• Atheism: A Rough History of Disbelief
  
• The Atheism Tapes
  
• The Root of All Evil?
  
• Growing Up In The Universe
  
• The Enemies of Reason

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Religion and "faith" have certainly been abused by unscrupulous people, but it seems very clear to me that atheistic materialism leads to much more harmful (to the self and to others) behavior than any religious justifications ever could.

 

If there is no karma, no soul, and no God, then why should we not act for our own perceived self-interest without regards for anybody else?

 

Actually, I saw an interview with Isaac Asimov (famous atheist) where he very beautifully explained an atheistic motivation for morality, but I cannot recall it at this moment.

[cbrahma]

Just a casual search for 'atheist' on youtube and you'll find so many atheist videos and comments rallying around Dawkins and others like Christopher Hitchens. They ride the crest of an 'atheist revival' in the popular culture.

The main strategy is to invoke science as proof of materialism. If you know anything about science, you will understand that such philosophical questions are outside its scope of interest.

[theist]

Richard Dawkins may be the atheists leader now but that would only be because Antony Flew finally became convinced that their must be a God afterall and turned from atheist to theist.

 

What convinced him was the arguements like those of Behe on the astounding complexity of natural things which make them having evolved impossible.

 

The atheists now think Flew had some sort of mental breakdown, LOL

 

One thing for sure arguements from the Bhagavatam will not convince any scientist about the existence of God in fact they will only reinforce their misgivings about religion and science not being compatable,

 

The Intelligent Design approach is the most intelligent one and it is presently being lead by scientifically aware Christians.

 

Google Michael Behe for examples on how to counter the atheistic nonsense.

[sanatan]

 

Religion and "faith" have certainly been abused by unscrupulous people, but it seems very clear to me that atheistic materialism leads to much more harmful (to the self and to others) behavior than any religious justifications ever could.

 

IMO, a matter of the concentrated evil wrought by purely atheistic (communist) or atheistic/psuedo-religious (nazi) ruling regimes over a relatively short period of time...less than 100 years...as opposed to the evils wrought by institutionalized, despiritualized religions over say 1,900 years, for a convenient benchmark.

 

How to put it into numbers, I have no idea, but I'd say the two systems have wrought equal death, devastation and suffering over the last 2,000 yrs. Atheism didn't get an upper hand until the 20th century, but caught up real quick.

 

 

If there is no karma, no soul, and no God, then why should we not act for our own perceived self-interest without regards for anybody else?

 

Logically, no reason, except as like-minded others can help us achieve our own goals (then kill them).

 

The best guess I can make is that atheists or those unguided by a spiritual code who demonstrate very high personal qualities are people born with a governing percentage of the mode of goodness. But then such persons tend to not to object to widespread evils such as animal slaughter and near-unrestricted abortion, actually going to the extent of calling abortion a basic "human right". Maybe not such a good guess.

 

 

Actually, I saw an interview with Isaac Asimov (famous atheist) where he very beautifully explained an atheistic motivation for morality, but I cannot recall it at this moment.

 

That would be interesting to see.

[theist]

I can see atheistic morality as an opiate used to control the masses. Keep them from causing so much havoc.

 

The thing is even when so-called theists ruled were they really theists? Certainly not in any meaningful sense of the word.

 

Maharaja's Pariksit and Prithu are long gone and remain only with a few in the form of ideals. In this age we have Stalin and Mao on the overt atheist side. On the Captitalistic covert side we have unbridled material consumerism, led by various front men, which is also just as soul killing despite the token "In God We Trust" printed on the money. What trust in God?

 

What is coming is not hard to imagine. If not a total catastrophe on the earth then I find it easy to believe in the theorists that say there is a scheme under way to cull the humans down to 500,000 to make it manageable.

 

Then couple that with cloning and genetic engineering to produce the perfectly desireable future humans. Passive, hard working, no reproductive function (want to keep that for a controlled lab setting) a nice little slave class of chimeras, all duly patented and company owned.

 

A friggin' nightmare. The technology is not far off right now.when it's refined then the only thing left will be the culling of the humans. Control reproduction and you control the whole show.

 

Hitler was a eugeniscist. And he was inspired by the eugenics movement in America lead by Margret Sanger, founder of planned parenthood.

 

And really if you are a total materialist then eugenics makes sense. These people don't see this as an evil plan. Their intentions are as noble as anyone else's.

 

Dear Lord Krsna please have mercy upon us.

[sevabhakta]

To back up what Theist is saying, one can skim Zetatalk.com, and find out what these bigtime genetic planners have in store once they manufacture a few earth changes and race wars.

 

They are for real, most of their predictive analysis has been spot on over the years. They say it is because they are very advanced and telepathic.

 

Some believe it is because they are very advanced and actually the puppet masters pulling the strings on the marionette called the sheeple.

 

Either way, Srila Prabhupada said that "the preaching would be better after the war". And that the flashpoint would be Pakistan \ India in 2007-2008.

 

I hope y'all have some seed stored.

 

Hare Krsna

[theist]

Never heard of zetatalk.com but I.m gonna check it out now. Thanks

[suchandra]

 

He doesn't sound all that smart to me.

This might be our first impression but usually such people won't present themselves in public as leading figure, flatfooted and without having a huge apparatus of supporting global network backstage. Just like you find via European Parlament resolution in this year's school book update for 100 million schoolchildren that Charles Darwin's evolutionary theory is suddenly presented as scientific truth. At the same time they proclaim, vedic literature, due to sectarian presentation not to be included in the official catalogs of public libraries. But anyway since the Vaishnavas have so many tons of other unsolved homework to catch up, their preaching in the spotlight of publicity is presently not taken into consideration by anyone.

[Kulapavana]

what difference is there betwen materialistic religiosity and materialistic atheism? the law of karma is not about what you believe, but about what you do. anybody who believes that a moraly decent atheist is condemned while a religious bigot or terrorist is saved simply does not understand the truth.

 

what evil deeds have Dawkins perpetrated? what evil deeds are being perpetrated by people in the name of their materialistic religion?

 

what really makes people turn away from God? the theories of atheists or the evil deeds of the so called people of God? many people become atheists after disappoinment with religion and "religious" people.

[theist]

 

what difference is there betwen materialistic religiosity and materialistic atheism? the law of karma is not about what you believe, but about what you do. anybody who believes that a moraly decent atheist is condemned while a religious bigot or terrorist is saved simply does not understand the truth.

 

what evil deeds have Dawkins perpetrated? what evil deeds are being perpetrated by people in the name of their materialistic religion?

 

what really makes people turn away from God? the theories of atheists or the evil deeds of the so called people of God? many people become atheists after disappoinment with religion and "religious" people.

 

Well activist atheists like Richard Dawkins are committing the most egregious form of violence one can perpetuate against another human being. They are aggressively blocking the very purpose of the human form which is to regain one's consciousness of God. Can there really be a more evil deed?

 

Just because he is not beating a child with a board does not make him non-violent. He is directly attacking the subtle body of other humans.

 

Religious fanatics do their own damage but that doesn't excuse demons like Dawkins.

 

Agnostics in my book are respectable because they are honest. They don't know and they admit that. Supierior to atheists and make believe theists in my book.

 

Atheistic crusaders like Dawkins are on a mission from hell. And no I am not overstating for effect.

[Kulapavana]

 

Well activist atheists like Richard Dawkins are committing the most egregious form of violence one can perpetuate against another human being. They are aggressively blocking the very purpose of the human form which is to regain one's consciousness of God.

 

they are no more blocking that purpose than you are forcing that purpose on people by preaching the message of Mahaprabhu.

[theist]

 

they are no more blocking that purpose than you are forcing that purpose on people by preaching the message of Mahaprabhu.

 

Sorry but that is a incredibly ridiculous statement, perhaps the dumbest I have ever heard.

 

If you feel that way then way have you taken initiation in a line from Mahaprabhu?

[Kulapavana]

 

Sorry but that is a incredibly ridiculous statement, perhaps the dumbest I have ever heard.

 

If you feel that way then way have you taken initiation in a line from Mahaprabhu?

 

I think you misunderstood what I said.

 

Acceptance of the message in both cases is purely volountary. There is no external force blocking us from accepting God or pushing us to surrender our heart to Him. Thus the atheists are merely presenting a choice in this situation, just like the preachers of the Holy Name.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Your point is well-taken.

 

However, what we see in practice is not "equal time" for both "sides". Rather, atheism (or, at least, materialistic thinking) tends to permeate the world of education (especially at the University level) with spirituality being marginalized (and, at that, being given a materialistic treatment, often).

 

So, while college students, for instance, may not need to *accept* the message of materialism, they at least need to be able to *recite* that message competently if they hope to receive their diplomas.

 

 

I think you misunderstood what I said.

 

Acceptance of the message in both cases is purely volountary. There is no external force blocking us from accepting God or pushing us to surrender our heart to Him. Thus the atheists are merely presenting a choice in this situation, just like the preachers of the Holy Name.

[Nrsinghadev]

 

I think you misunderstood what I said.

 

Acceptance of the message in both cases is purely volountary. There is no external force blocking us from accepting God or pushing us to surrender our heart to Him. Thus the atheists are merely presenting a choice in this situation, just like the preachers of the Holy Name.

You are right, but it can be argued that since this new wave of atheism, on top of the already existing atheistic educational foundation that is being preached on schools for decades, is now even more firmly rooted by dint of it being widely accepted by prominent professors among colleges and universities, and taught there as being truth.

In this way they have for quite some time been effectively wiping out God consciousness among the scholarly- and thus leading section of society.

 

Sure it's all part of the karmic chain of events, and acceptance of God is most definitely not dependent on any loudmouthed atheist who claims to be of superior intelligence, but still as aspiring devotees, we should not sit idly by and not be worried or concerned about the increasing lack of God consciousness amongst intelligentsia around the world, because if the teacher by teaching makes you forget your constitutional position, he is not doing you a very good service. We are no Prahlada maharaja mind you, so students are bound to be heavily influenced by what they learn in school.

 

We are all currently witness to a society of Godless leaders, and since the only real beneficial attainment a human being can achieve in his short lifespan is God consciousness, quite frankly things are looking more and more hopeless, with the ever increasing depth in the field of material science adding to our confused state of being, piling up more and more dust upon the already covered shining of our souls inside of us.

 

 

Thus the atheists are merely presenting a choice in this situation, just like the preachers of the Holy Name.

A "choice" that like Murali prabhu said (using much better and more condensed phrasing) is spoonfed to students in most schools nowdays. The tables are turned now. Only a few hundred years ago, people had no choice in schools but to hear theistic teachings, and now students have no choice but to hear atheistic teachings. Of course like Prahlada Maharaja, a pure soul, or a sattvic person will still be able to have all these teachings go in the left ear and out the right whilst maintaining his focus on God, but most will become even more ignorant of God's existence. All this of course, is also part of the karmic cycle of events, but we should not therefore become complacent, but instead try to the best of our capabilities to shine some light in those dark places.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Hare Krishna

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

A "choice" that like Murali prabhu said (using much better and more condensed phrasing) is spoonfed to students in most schools nowdays.

 

On the contrary, I thank you for fleshing out my sketch of an idea.

[theist]

The shaking knees of the theists on this forum is causing a chilling breeze. "Dawkins crusade aganst theism is just another choice that we should offer to our children."

 

I oppose all Hiranyakasipu schools that teach or imply there is no God in control of this universe.

 

This is dog ***t philosophy IMO. There is a God. That is a fact. If you don't know that then you are still an agnostic. That's ok but just state your position honestly.

 

Those that present God consciousness properly are on the side of the devas. Those that oppose God consciousness and actively work to eliminate it from the thinking of human beings (like Dawkins) are asuras.

 

That is one thing I really appreciate about Srila Prabhupada. He called the atheists out in no uncertain terms. Second class devotees are instructed to avoid them and preach to the innocent instead. Agnostics are innocent because they admit they don't know if there is a God or not.

 

If you know there is a God you should feel confident in saying so. If you know God's existence is truth then why do you think children should be taught a lie? I pity your kids. How confused they will be. If you have no confidence then perhaps you are still an agnostic and if that is our state of mind we need to admit to ourselves an deal with it.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Not sure to whom you refer here.

 

I suggested that there was not much of a choice these days--at least not in public and "secular humanist" education--and Nrsinghadev Prabhu agreed with me. Kulapavana Prabhu was pointing out the (idealized) truth that there is some choice in the matter.

 

In presenting Buddhism to the world, Lord Vishnu Himself was offering yet another choice. Folks with "atheistic" tendencies could still live a spiritual, regulated life by following in the footsteps of Buddha-avatar.

 

With my own kids, I'm quite clear on what I believe (and, beyond belief, what I *know* with conviction in my heart).

 

 

The shaking knees of the theists on this forum is causing a chilling breeze. "Dawkins crusade aganst theism is just another choice that we should offer to our children."

 

I oppose all Hiranyakasipu schools that teach or imply there is no God in control of this universe.

 

This is dog ***t philosophy IMO. There is a God. That is a fact. If you don't know that then you are still an agnostic. That's ok but just state your position honestly.

 

Those that present God consciousness properly are on the side of the devas. Those that oppose God consciousness and actively work to eliminate it from the thinking of human beings (like Dawkins) are asuras.

 

That is one thing I really appreciate about Srila Prabhupada. He called the atheists out in no uncertain terms. Second class devotees are instructed to avoid them and preach to the innocent instead. Agnostics are innocent because they admit they don't know if there is a God or not.

 

If you know there is a God you should feel confident in saying so. If you know God's existence is truth then why do you think children should be taught a lie? I pity your kids. How confused they will be. If you have no confidence then perhaps you are still an agnostic and if that is our state of mind we need to admit to ourselves an deal with it.

[theist]

Sorry the idea that Dawkins preaching atheism is comparable with Mahaprabhu's message. I was still responding to Kulapavanna's statement as well as to several other conversations on this board with people who defend the present school system's eclusion of God consciousness.

 

I hadn't even read down to your's or Nrsingadeva's. I should have been more clear.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

No sweat. My defensiveness is a sign of a lack of humility.

 

Please accept my fallen obeisances!!

 

 

Sorry the idea that Dawkins preaching atheism is comparable with Mahaprabhu's message. I was still responding to Kulapavanna's statement as well as to several other conversations on this board with people who defend the present school system's eclusion of God consciousness.

 

I hadn't even read down to your's or Nrsingadeva's. I should have been more clear.

[cbrahma]

 

I think you misunderstood what I said.

 

Acceptance of the message in both cases is purely volountary. There is no external force blocking us from accepting God or pushing us to surrender our heart to Him. Thus the atheists are merely presenting a choice in this situation, just like the preachers of the Holy Name.

It's not just an aesthetic choice - like whether you want pie or cheesecake. It's a commitment of one's whole life - whether one accepts or rejects a spiritual path. The demonic mentality is atheistic- deliberate rascaldom.

 

Chapter 16 Srimad Bhagavad Gita

 

 

TEXT 20

asurim yonim apanna

mudha janmani janmani

mam aprapyaiva kaunteya

tato yanty adhamam gatim

SYNONYMS

 

asurim--demoniac; yonim--species; apannah--gaining; mudhah--the foolish; janmani janmani--in birth after birth; mam--unto Me; aprapya--without achieving; eva--certainly; kaunteya--O son of Kunti; tatah--thereafter; yanti--goes; adhamam--condemned; gatim--destination.

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence.

[theist]

 

No sweat. My defensiveness is a sign of a lack of humility.

 

Please accept my fallen obeisances!!

Oh man, don't get humble on me. That means I'll have to try and follow suit. Too late. Well I should learn to think deeply before I speak and not speak from past frustrations, (which I shouldn't be holding on to anyway).

 

Ugh

 

Please accept my respects young Turk.

[theist]

 

It's not just an aesthetic choice - like whether you want pie or cheesecake. It's a commitment of one's whole life - whether one accepts or rejects a spiritual path. The demonic mentality is atheistic- deliberate rascaldom.

 

Chapter 16 Srimad Bhagavad Gita

 

 

TEXT 20

asurim yonim apanna

mudha janmani janmani

mam aprapyaiva kaunteya

tato yanty adhamam gatim

SYNONYMS

 

asurim--demoniac; yonim--species; apannah--gaining; mudhah--the foolish; janmani janmani--in birth after birth; mam--unto Me; aprapya--without achieving; eva--certainly; kaunteya--O son of Kunti; tatah--thereafter; yanti--goes; adhamam--condemned; gatim--destination.

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence.

 

Yes and these crusading atheists want to take all human kind down with them.