Doubts

[Alex J]

Dear Prabhus,

I'd like to share some excerpts from an email correspondence that I had with Dhira Govinda Prabhu, on March 8th, 2005. I find the points that he brings up interesting, and today I felt inspired to share these excerpts with the Audarya Fellowship forum. Perhaps others will find them interesting as well.

Sincerely,

Alex

 

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Dhira Govinda dasa: Thank you for sharing this. I will be glad to hear from you, and discuss with you, regarding your doubts about Srila Prabhupada. I believe that such doubts are healthy to express and openly and honestly examine. If you think sharing and discussing with me will be valuable in this regard, I am available.

 

Alex: One doubt I have is that certain things that are attributed to Srila Prabhupada seem rajastic to me. Perhaps this vision comes to me via the Lilamrta...and perhaps the Lilamrta does not accurately represent Srila Prabhupada.

 

I had the feeling that Srila Prabhupada sometimes stressed expansion of the institution over and above the personal sadhana of it's members.

 

I find japa a transformative experience. A grounding and clearing process. I remember hearing or reading pastimes where Srila Prabhupada seemed to be telling devotees that it was okay to do devotional work rather than chant. I think it was in connection with the construction of a temple in India...perhaps in Mayapur. From what I recall a devotee was working hard on temple construction and was not making time to chant japa and Srila Prabhupada seemed to be condoning this.

 

Another doubt is in connection with gurukula and the abuses that took place. I have questions like "Was Prabhupada naive?" and "Did he know what was going on?"

 

Dhira Govinda dasa: Thank you for sharing your thoughts and doubts about these things. I hear that, based on some things you've heard, Srila Prabhupada's focus and mood seemed at times to be rajasic, in the sense of concentrating more on expansion rather than sattvic cultivation of sadhana. This discussion between us would likely be facilitated by specific examples of things Srila Prabhupada said and did that concern you, that cause you doubts. These examples would need to be valid, meaning that we know they come from Srila Prabhupada. Also, it's important to view examples in context. From my study of Srila Prabhupada's books, letters, conversations and lectures, I find his teachings to be balanced. Perhaps the youthfulness and maybe immaturity of those who received his instructions focused on a particular interpretation and perspective, more reflective in some instances of their natures than on Srila Prabhupada's intentions. In any event, surely there are "pastimes where Srila Prabhupada seemed to be telling devotees that it was okay to do devotional work rather than chant." I'd be glad to discuss particulars of such instances, in the context in which they were given. My experience and impression of the totality of Srila Prabhupada's teachings is balance, with flexibility and sensitivity to individual natures.

 

The principles described above apply, as far as I'm concerned, to the discussion about gurukula. I do have quite a bit of contact with the details of that part of history, by dint of my service for 6+ years with the child protection office. Here is one example. While interviewing a Vaisnava youth he shared the following. Currently he is in his mid-thirties. When he was 9 years old he was sent to Vrndavana, from the United States. This was in November, 1977. Sharing his experience, it was clear that for a 9 year old to leave his mother for India was distressing. Still, overall his experience, despite the homesickness, was one of fun and adventure. He spoke positively of his experience in the Vrndavana gurukula, at least for the first few months when he arrived there. Who did Srila Prabhupada put in charge of the Vrndavana gurukula? Srila Prabhupada had many followers. To manage the gurukula in Vrndavana he appointed a man named Dr. Sharma. As far as I'm aware Dr. Sharma was not a follower of Srila Prabhupada. From what I understand he may not even have been a Vaisnava. He was a respectable Indian gentleman, with caring and common sense. From the descriptions given by this Vaisnava youth, and many others who were in Vrndavana at the time, Dr. Sharma was a very loving school principal. Sometimes he slapped the children, though I never heard complaints about his slapping. I heard things like "When he slapped us, we know we deserved it, and we felt that he cared about us." So, from many descriptions I've heard, the Vrndavana gurukula was austere, though overall a healthy environment, materially and spiritually. To continue with the story of the Vaisnava youth mentioned above- he reported that after the GBC meetings early in 1978, the first GBC meetings after Srila Prabhupada's departure, everything changed. His childhood life in Vrndavana became a nightmare. Dr. Sharma, and his staff, were removed, replaced by persons who complied with the political agenda of the ISKCON leaders. The mood in the school drastically changed. Brutality replaced compassion. Horror stories abounded.

 

From many Vaisnava youth I've heard stories of personal encounters with Srila Prabhupada. He would see them, inquire about their clothes, their health, etc. Srila Prabhupada's personal dealings with children were filled with responsibility and caring. Also, based on what he was informed about regarding child mistreatment, he acted responsibly, at least based on the information to which I have access, which is more information on the topic than perhaps almost anyone else, considering my experience as APVC director for more than six years. For example, once he was told that a teacher beat a child ("beat" is different than the loving slap of Dr. Sharma), hurting the child. Srila Prabhupada was deeply disturbed. He became emotional and said "he [the teacher] should be hung...he should be hung...he should be hung..." Not that Srila Prabhupada was advocating hanging the teacher by the neck, but it shows the mood of Srila Prabhupada towards such activities as brutal beatings of children. In the one case of sexual child abuse that, as far as I'm aware, Srila Prabhupada was informed of, he said that the abuser should not be allowed in the temple.

 

"Perhaps the youthfulness and maybe immaturity of those who received his instructions focused on a particular interpretation and perspective, more reflective in some instances of their natures than on Srila Prabhupada's intentions." Here's an example of that, related to the gurukula conversation. It became known throughout the ISKCON schools that, supposedly, Srila Prabhupada wanted the children to eat only three chappatis per day. So, in the actual conversation where Srila Prabhupada said that, it was clear that he was talking in an informal way, not laying down some authoritarian edict. He was in a relaxed mood, and some teachers came to him and asked him about the children's diet, and in a casual way he said something like [i'm paraphrasing] "Yes, they can have some subjis and rice, two or three chappatis...like that...." So, somehow it became a "rule" that children should not eat more than 3 chappatis....

 

Srila Prabhupada set up an effective system for managing temples around the world. This system involves a temple president, a treasurer, etc. In some instances those who filled positions within that system represented Srila Prabhupada's mood and desires very well. In other instances not so well, and in some cases they performed shamefully. Similarly, from my perspective, with the schools. Srila Prabhupada set up a system to educate children. Many who served within that system did so admirably. Others created a mess.

 

I hope this has begun to address some of your doubts and questions, or at least provided some framework and paradigm for further consideration. With regards to the gurukula topic, I have written extensively about it. For example in the book, published by Columbia University Press, The Hare Krsna Movement- The Postcharismatic Fate of a Religious Transplant, I wrote a chapter entitled Child Abuse and the Hare Krishnas: History and Response. I recommend that you read that for additional information and valuable perspective on this topic." [Also, in the Journal of Religion and Abuse I've published an article related to this topic entitled Child Abandonment and Religious Organizations: A Case Study.]

 

(...)

 

<!-- text below generated by server. PLEASE REMOVE --> In assessing the doubts and issues you raise, it is essential to separate Srila Prabhupada's words, actions and intentions, from the response and reactions of individuals and of the institution. I have thought deeply about these things and, for whatever it's worth, by looking honestly at them, my faith in Srila Prabhupada has actually increased. I encourage you to face your doubts and explore them fully. The conclusions you draw may not be the same as mine. Still, I possess conviction that the process for you will be a healthy and productive one.

[mahak]

Haribol, alex, PAMHO. Hope all is well with you. Please give my regards to Sri Dhira Govinda das.

 

This kind of stuff always came up where I served while he was still physically with us. I was involved in occasions where, first, 50+ initiated disciples left ISKCON en masse, and then, about a year later, their replacements also left, about another 50. I left both times, in 1974, and again in 1976. The issue was the burgeoning way samkirtana took place, that the GBC management insisted on profit. The devotees were expected to bring big bucks every day, by hook or crook. There was criminal activity taking place, wholesale cheating, just ridiculous stuff that made all the folks I hung with just cringe. Even early disciples, those who were greatly advanced and very personally intimate with Srila Prabhupada, left ISKCON during this development of what we all considered to be impious money-madness.

 

And while we never blamed Srila Prabhupada, we always wondered how he could not know of these activities. In fact, we were aghast that he did know of the circumstances of how ISKCON got banned from Japan and W. Germany because of the crimes of those entrusted to spread this movement there. I guess we fell into the idea that Srila Prabhupada was hoping these people would improve their character.

 

For me, the final straw of these feelings, these similar doubts that you have expressed to our kind godbrother, dhira govinda das, was the content of his will, where he leaves all these gathered properties to the same criminally minded folks.

 

But the secret that I have tried to investigate and tell of and dispute the whole extra-shastric documents that so many accept as scripture, like office memoes and wills and appointment letters is a statement that I cannot find around Oct. 5, 1977. In this statement, Srila Prabhupada states that he has given them everything THEY have desired. This is his secret to his devotees. Those people who demanded these positions, the lifestyle, the wealth, they got it. But they did not get what Srila Prabhupada has come to give. They got what they demanded, not what he offered. It is all but proven that he desired all his disciples to come to him in his last daqys, but we were prevented by this criminal element. But in many cases, he has come to us, because we were left with nothing.

 

I havwe always stated in forums, especially yours, where I did a series that you were very kind to accept with an open mind, but others were quite offended by, that the loss of ISKCON is Srila Prabhupadas blessing to his disciples. So, perhaps your doubt is actually your armor, because you see that Srila Prabhupada, in his last statement, will state, "you have given me everything I desire". Srila Prabhupada did not come to make us rich, his advanced disciples become mendicants, not emperors living in castles. That some have taken other things, is this not described in Bhagavad Gita, where krsna gives Arjuna a variety of options. These options are for arjuna t6o consider, but Krsna also clarifies these options as some being very pleasing to him.

 

None of that wierd stuff of the early seventies was devotional service. This is why during the same time frame Srtila Prabhupada codified a warning in the content of ChChMadhya lila about those who may seem to be vaisnavas, have all the outward characteristics, yet are simply servants of discord, chaos, quarrel, and confusion. That ISKCON seems quite confused, that the document lovers seem to be unclear of what Srila Prabhupada wanted in terms of continuing parampara, these things are products of kali cela. Srila Prabhupada is abundantly clear on all issues, if there is unclarity, it is from the kali cela, not from him.

 

Personally, I believe that Srila Prabhupada was held against his will for many months prior to his leaving. I know he was horrified and aghast at the cheating going on in the name of Samkirtana. I also know that many leaders of his foundation were openly defiant of him, even while he still was here. He demanded that all funds collected by his disciples for the starving masses of Biafra be turned over to charities that did such welfare work, and that these orders were not carried out.

 

Anyway, I really appreciate your sharing this with the devotee community. It is a growing process. The devotees who spoke out in a timely manner were thrown out, all kinds of fabrications made against us to Srila Prabhupada by those who were the very reason we left. I was so frustrated that lies were being told about my return to ganja that I did return to ganja. I hade many long discussions about these things with other stalwart devotees who also had to leave, like subal and sudama swamis. We were driven away.

 

Lucky for us, eh? At such an early age, too. Because we were not involved in the more horrific era of ISKCON in the 80s and early 90s.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[sanatan]

Great thread; outstanding commentary by mahak.

 

I've long gotten over any lingering regrets that I didn't shave up and move in, ca. 1971, as well as any that I didn't jump in with both feet in the mid-1980's. Got singed a little tiny bit but never burned the second time around.

 

The Kingdom of God is truly within us.

[gHari]

Alex,

 

This is perhaps a tangent but when I read about purifying japa I thought I needed to share this with you. India Divine have some inexpensive CDs of MP3 versions of a very sweet recital of Srila Vrindavan dasa's Sri Caitanya Bhagavata. I just returned from listening for four hours at the grocery and laundromat. It is a very very purifying experience ... not at all unlike japa. I could listen 24 hours a day - it is very precious. Lord Caitanya's pastimes are so purifying. This is a little money you will never ever regret parting with. Eat rice for a week and spend $10 on your future.

 

gHari

[Vedesu]

"Now I want that we shall concentrate on making our devotees Krishna conscious and ourselves becoming Krishna conscious, and not be so much concerned with expanding ourselves widely but without any spiritual content. Just like boiling milk, it becomes thicker and sweeter. Now do like that, boil the milk."

 

-- Letter from Srila Prabhupada dated May 5, 1972

[suchandra]

 

I havwe always stated in forums, especially yours, where I did a series that you were very kind to accept with an open mind, but others were quite offended by, that the loss of ISKCON is Srila Prabhupadas blessing to his disciples.

Thanks mahak for this well-done inquest, yes, indeed people have a hard time trying to understand Prabhupada's mood whenever it comes to what you pointed out in your post. What Prabhupada stated deliberately and repeatedly, "I take that risk". For example, when he said, "So they criticize me that I have become a marriage-maker", he immediately added, "but I take that risk." So this is Prabhupada's overall mood, whatever he ordered his disciples, he took the risk and the responsibility of what came out.

But this is what people can't understand, that devotees like Vasudeva-datta had prayed to Lord Caitanya, “My Lord, my heart breaks to see the sufferings of all the conditioned souls; therefore I request You to transfer the karma of their sinful lives upon my head. My dear Lord, let me suffer perpetually in a hellish condition, accepting all the sinful reactions of all living entities. Please finish their diseased material life.“

(CC Madhya 15.162-163.)

 

As you say, so many devotees left, couldnt take it to live according Prabhupada's vision how his spiritual society for saving humanity should be set up and in order to simply keep the spreading of the Holy Name going he put himself into the position of taking the responsibilty for all the nonsense his leaders botched up - even to the point of destroying the movement. Now this is the typical "reward of the world", ingratitude. Whenever someone did something really beneficial for humanity he was "thanked" with ingratitude - this is how this world works. May be some centuries later there was a sanctification. But right whenever someone did something good for the spiritual wellbeing of human society, the immediate reply of worldly minds was, "burn him on the stake."

[Alex J]

 

 

In this statement, Srila Prabhupada states that he has given them everything THEY have desired. This is his secret to his devotees. Those people who demanded these positions, the lifestyle, the wealth, they got it. But they did not get what Srila Prabhupada has come to give. They got what they demanded, not what he offered.

Dear mahaksadasa Prabhu,

 

Thank you for your post, where you shared some of your thoughts, realizations, and personal experiences.

 

In the excerpt quoted above, do you perhaps have in mind the following statement from Srila Prabhupada?

 

Srila Prabhupada: In this condition, even I cannot move my body on the bed. Only chance you should give me--let me die little peacefully, without any anxiety. I have given in writing everything, whatever you wanted--my will, my executive (?) power, everything. Disaster will happen if you cannot manage it. Hm? [Srila Prabhupara Room Conversation October 2, 1977, Vrndavana]

 

 

 

We were driven away.

 

Lucky for us, eh? At such an early age, too. Because we were not involved in the more horrific era of ISKCON in the 80s and early 90s.

I agree with what you've expressed above.

 

 

"Now I want that we shall concentrate on making our devotees Krishna conscious and ourselves becoming Krishna conscious, and not be so much concerned with expanding ourselves widely but without any spiritual content. Just like boiling milk, it becomes thicker and sweeter. Now do like that, boil the milk."

 

-- Letter from Srila Prabhupada dated May 5, 1972

Dear Vedesu Prabhu,

 

Thank you for the quote. Yes, I'm familiar with it.

 

 

Alex,

 

This is perhaps a tangent but when I read about purifying japa I thought I needed to share this with you. India Divine have some inexpensive CDs of MP3 versions of a very sweet recital of Srila Vrindavan dasa's Sri Caitanya Bhagavata. I just returned from listening for four hours at the grocery and laundromat. It is a very very purifying experience ... not at all unlike japa. I could listen 24 hours a day - it is very precious. Lord Caitanya's pastimes are so purifying. This is a little money you will never ever regret parting with. Eat rice for a week and spend $10 on your future.

 

gHari

Dear gHari Prabhu,

 

Thank you for sharing with me about the purifying experience that you felt, as you listened to to four hours of Sri Caitanya Bhagavata.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

[mahak]

Srila Prabhupada: In this condition, even I cannot move my body on the bed. Only chance you should give me--let me die little peacefully, without any anxiety. I have given in writing everything, whatever you wanted--my will, my executive (?) power, everything. Disaster will happen if you cannot manage it. Hm? [Srila Prabhupara Room Conversation October 2, 1977, Vrndavana]

mahaksadasa: Thanx much, alex, as I have been inquiring exhaustively for this very qoute. When analyzing such quotes, one must look beyond the words, to the nuance, the meaning. This is a mortifying event, where Srila Prabhupada is showing what. to me, is great displeasure about the state of his foundation. It seems to me, that even though it was all but a done deal, this usurption of his foundation, there was still dissatisfaction among these people. He is saying here, "ENOUGH". "Whatever you wanted" is very key, because we see here that unadvanced devotees are demanding things that they want. There is evidence from this statement that the nectar that they were anxious for is not divya jnana, but legal documents placing his wealth in their hands, his power in their hands. So if we understand that wealth and power is the goal of his leadership, then we, who have been fully educated by Srila Prabhupada as to the goal in life, we should run, not walk, away from all of these people. Those who did not run, and continued to associate with and enable this wealth and power scam, unfortunately were CHEATED. Thus we have cheaters and cheated.

While reform minded folks over the last thirty years have slowly seen the light, there is still vestiges of the initial problem. That people approach Krsna Consciousness for wealth and power is not false, nor cheating in itself, because we see among the four types of folks who do make this commitment folks of material needs, the inquisitive, the needy, and the miserable. But there is also key teachings that we must become wise in order to fully reach the goal of Krsna Consciousness, because the needy have no more needs, they again adopt selfishness, when the misery is lessened, there is no more urgency, when the mind is satisfied with philosophy, the mind decides to make its own philosophy.

So, regardless of our motive in approaching Krsna Consciousness, we must become wise. We must take what he gives, which means our desire should be his pleasure, not more of what WE desire. Our desires are formed in the hell of polluted consciousness, and this utterance in the last days of his appearance indicate that they did not submit to what he desired, but independently decided that wills, appointments to power positions, et al, is the gift he had to offer.

But this is not his offering, what he gives was given to those who were prevented from coming to him despite his invitation to take part in his glorious disappearance. We received it, and it meant that we had no status in a foundation, no money gained from illegal scaqms, no association with materialists dressed in vaisnava garb. And, there is no DISASTER looming on the horizon. The disaster is that when the three lower reasons were solved, wisdom did not enter, and thus they all fell away, quietly and loudly, immediately and down the line of history.

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksada

PS If you like, alex, you may reprint this on your forum on PL, as I really was looking for this quote to make this comment when I left the forum. And give my regards to all the PL forum members as well.

[Alex J]

 

PS If you like, alex, you may reprint this on your forum on PL, as I really was looking for this quote to make this comment when I left the forum. And give my regards to all the PL forum members as well.

Dear mahaksadasa Prabhu,

 

I've reprinted your post in the PL forum, and I've passed on your regards to the forum members.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

[Kulapavana]

 

And while we never blamed Srila Prabhupada, we always wondered how he could not know of these activities. In fact, we were aghast that he did know of the circumstances of how ISKCON got banned from Japan and W. Germany because of the crimes of those entrusted to spread this movement there. I guess we fell into the idea that Srila Prabhupada was hoping these people would improve their character.

 

For me, the final straw of these feelings, these similar doubts that you have expressed to our kind godbrother, dhira govinda das, was the content of his will, where he leaves all these gathered properties to the same criminally minded folks.

 

The issue of credit cuts both ways. We give credit for the good things that result from one's actions, but we also see responsibility for setting off a chain of events that leads to undesirable results. Nobody can claim only credit for the good things and reject responsibility for the other side. What is paramount, however, is a fair and honest asessment in such matters. Only then we can actually FIND CLOSURE and make sense of the situation. Feeding ourselves and others lies and misrepresentations of facts is not helping anybody.

 

And the truth shall set you free...

[Alex J]

Dear Prabhus,

 

As I was riding the bus to work this morning, I thought of another excerpt from an email exchange that I was considering to share with the Audarya Fellowship forum. It's from another correspondence that I had with Dhira Govinda Prabhu, this one from September 9th, 2004.

 

Originally I was thinking of posting it in the "Should the Truth Be Always Spoken?" thread, but I think I'll post it here.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

 

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Alex: Do you have any thoughts on why there is not more of a genuine commitment to truth in ISKCON?

 

Dhira Govinda dasa: We could expound on this at length, though we won't do that here. Basically, it seems to me, preservation of the organization and its various institutions, such as the guru system, has become more important than commitment to truth. Such attempts at preservation are seen as being the highest truth. Preserving the status quo of the organization is regarded as the highest service to Srila Prabhupada and Krsna. With such a view, we don't need to consciously consider what Srila Prabhupada would actually want, what is genuinely Krsna conscious, what makes sense, what is functional. Rather, we just act in a way so that the organization survives. It is survival mode, rather than living mode. Of course, if members of the organization acted in living mode, then the manifestation of the organization would be at an immensely higher and more potent level than when attempting to merely and barely survive. So, this organizational survival strategy is overtly justified as being to please Srila Prabhupada and to protect the devotees. If we delve deeper, however, I believe we'll find that that mode of operation is to protect some persons who benefit, or at least appear to benefit, from the existing state of affairs. Much more could be said about this. Perhaps we'll discuss or correspond about that some other time.

 

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[Murali_Mohan_das]

Ponderous. Real ponderous!!

 

 

Dear Prabhus,

 

As I was riding the bus to work this morning, I thought of another excerpt from an email exchange that I was considering to share with the Audarya Fellowship forum. It's from another correspondence that I had with Dhira Govinda Prabhu, this one from September 9th, 2004.

 

Originally I was thinking of posting it in the "Should the Truth Be Always Spoken?" thread, but I think I'll post it here.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

 

---------

 

Alex: Do you have any thoughts on why there is not more of a genuine commitment to truth in ISKCON?

 

Dhira Govinda dasa: We could expound on this at length, though we won't do that here. Basically, it seems to me, preservation of the organization and its various institutions, such as the guru system, has become more important than commitment to truth. Such attempts at preservation are seen as being the highest truth. Preserving the status quo of the organization is regarded as the highest service to Srila Prabhupada and Krsna. With such a view, we don't need to consciously consider what Srila Prabhupada would actually want, what is genuinely Krsna conscious, what makes sense, what is functional. Rather, we just act in a way so that the organization survives. It is survival mode, rather than living mode. Of course, if members of the organization acted in living mode, then the manifestation of the organization would be at an immensely higher and more potent level than when attempting to merely and barely survive. So, this organizational survival strategy is overtly justified as being to please Srila Prabhupada and to protect the devotees. If we delve deeper, however, I believe we'll find that that mode of operation is to protect some persons who benefit, or at least appear to benefit, from the existing state of affairs. Much more could be said about this. Perhaps we'll discuss or correspond about that some other time.

 

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[Alex J]

 

Ponderous. Real ponderous!!

 

Dear Murali Mohan Prabhu,

 

Thank you for your reply. By using the word "ponderous", do you mean something like "lacking grace and fluency, wanting, labored, awkward, dull"? Or do you mean something along the lines of "important, forcible, heavy, momentous"?

 

Sincerely,

Alex

[Murali_Mohan_das]

The latter, to be sure, not the former.

 

"Ponderous, real ponderous" is a quote from somewhere. I'm not sure where, though. When I hear it in my head, it's being spoken with a Southern/Western drawl.

 

I use it to indicate my approval of the thought-provoking material.

 

With my limited capacity, I see in the words of Dhira Govinda Prabhu (and your good self), qualities of a sincere, introspective, and truthful Vaishnava.

 

 

Dear Murali Mohan Prabhu,

 

Thank you for your reply. By using the word "ponderous", do you mean something like "lacking grace and fluency, wanting, labored, awkward, dull"? Or do you mean something along the lines of "important, forcible, heavy, momentous"?

 

Sincerely,

Alex