Beginningless Karma

[suchandra]

Student, Sunday, 21 Oct 2007: The materially conditioned soul is sometimes compared to a criminal who has been sentenced to prison, the idea being that to gain its freedom the soul must appeal to God for mercy as a prisoner appeals to the governor for clemency.

 

 

 

 

 

The difference is that we souls were born into bondage without knowing the where or why of our situation. Only when guru or scripture informs us of the land where everyone is eternally happy and free do we fully understand our lamentable condition. We are told that in the eternal "freeland" we have brothers and sisters (nitya-siddhas) that our father (God) never sent to this prison. For me this brings up the question as to why we are imprisoned and not the others. The answer we receive is that we were envious and rebelled against him. Is this the whole picture?

 

HH Tripurari Swami, Sunday, 21 Oct 2007: People often want a nice story to explain everything, but such stories often do not do justice to the metaphysical reality we are part of. In this case, the idea that we were imprisoned in the material world because we "rebelled against the all-good God" makes things simple; the understanding being that if we conform to God's will by following the advice of scripture we will be free again. Almost every religion uses some type of "Adam and Eve" or rebellion analogy in order to account for the human condition and exonerate God for the existence of suffering and evil in the world. Some sects even take their tradition's analogy literally.

 

Simple analogies have their utility, but with regard to the soul and creation, Hindu scripture relates something quite different. It says that it is God himself as Maha-Visnu who came here! This is his world. He did not go elsewhere or send anyone else to the freeland. Scripture says that out of love Maha-Visnu desired to become many and so entered his world. He has no other world of his own, no other lila to speak of.

He enters material existence as energy--tatastha-sakti-<wbr>-consisting of innumerable souls (jivas). This is not to say that the jivatma is not distinct from the Paramatma. Paramatma is simultaneously one with and different from the jivatma. However, the Paramatma himself never fully enters material existence in that he remains transcendental to it. Thus to truly enter here, the one becomes many. However, because the many are infinitesimal, they do not fare well in relation to Visnu's powerful illusory energy (maya-sakti). So God as Narayana sends avataras of himself to help the sakti of Maha-Visnu in its plight. This is srsti-lila, the divine play of creation.

 

Student: The term nitya-baddha (eternally conditioned) implies that there is no particular point in history when Maha-Visnu began the srsti-lila, as it is eternal, and that originally there is no choice on anyone's part since choice implies a fixed point in time. Is this correct?

 

HH Tripurari Swami: Scripture clearly states that there is no beginning to karma. It is anadi. The srsti-lila is beginningless as well, but Visnu manifests his tatastha-sakti at the dawn of each creation. Then from homogeneity the heterogeneity of the jivas awakens and they take their place in the world in conformity with karma. The jivas are either manifest in the world or unmanifest in susupti (mystic slumber) within Visnu. Once the jivas are manifest, they can choose to turn toward God/Bhagavan or face away from him. They have this opportunity during the manifestation of the world, and the more knowledge they have, the more informed their choice is. Only when they meet Sri Guru can they make a truly informed choice. Scripture says that the position of the baddha-jiva who chooses to serve Bhagavan is most glorious.

 

It should be carefully noted that in lila there is no consideration of fairness--all is fair in love. Furthermore, in consideration of tattva, there is only one, no "other" to blame, Krishna, God is merely interacting with His potencies.

 

full article on Jiva Tattva

[theist]

 

"The one becomes many."

This apparently states there the jiva had no existence prior to their manifestation from Maha-vishnu. I question this.

 

My view (admittedly limtated by imperfect senses) is that what is being expressed by the one became many does not take into account the Spiritual Sky at all and merely refers to Vishnu "exhaling" or causing a new material manifestation.

 

This exhalation always follows a previous inhalation or annhiliation. This process is beginningless but it doesn't mean the jiva did not have an another existence apart from being entangled in this process. The prision always exists before one goes to live there and will continue to exist after the prison has regained his freedom.

 

I am not convinced by Tripurari's explanation. IF I understand it properly to begin with.

 

The souls who slumber within Vishnu in susupti als have their subtle bodies which is the basis of how Brahma will position them within the new creation.

[theist]

 

Vrajanatha, “Why did you refer to the karma of the jiva as being anadi, beginningless?”

 

Raghunatha dasa Babaji, “The prime cause for all karma is the desire to execute such karma. Avidya, ignorance, is the root of this material desire and is defined as forgetfulness of the truth: ‘I am the eternal servitor of Sri Krishna.’ This avidya did not suddenly sprout out within the time-span of the material universal creation—the seed of this root of karma originates in the matrix of the tatastha position of the jiva at the juncture the material and spiritual creations. Since the source of karma is thus untraceable within the mundane time of material world, karma is said to be anadi.”

[Guruvani]

"The one becomes many."

 

 

This apparently states there the jiva had no existence prior to their manifestation from Maha-vishnu. I question this.

 

 

 

Bhagavad-gita 9:7 purport,

 

Bahu syām: "Although I am one, I shall become many." This is the Vedic aphorism (Chāndogya Upaniṣad 6.2.3). He expands Himself in this material energy, and the whole cosmic manifestation again takes place.

[Guruvani]

anādi — without beginning; BG 11.19

anādi — beginningless; BG 13.13

anādī — without beginning; BG 13.20

anādi-nidhanam — without beginning and end; SB 1.8.28

anādi — without any beginning; SB 2.6.40-41

anādi — without beginning; SB 2.10.34

anādi-mān — the subtle body (existing since time immemorial); SB 4.29.70

anādi-saṃsāra-anubhavasya — of the perception of the beginningless process of transmigration; SB 5.14.1

anādi — from immemorial; SB 5.25.8

anādi — from time immemorial; SB 5.26.3

anādi — existing since time immemorial; SB 6.5.11

anādi — from time immemorial; SB 8.24.46

anādi — beginningless; SB 10.77.32

anādi — without beginning; SB 11.3.8

anādi — without beginning; SB 11.16.1

anādi — without beginning; SB 11.22.10

anādi — without beginning; SB 12.4.15-19

anādi-anta-vatā — without beginning or end; SB 12.4.37

anādi — who has no beginning; SB 12.6.2

anādi — from time immemorial; SB 12.10.41

anādi — beginningless; SB 12.11.29

anādi — without beginning; SB 12.11.50

anādi — from time immemorial; CC Madhya 20.117

[theist]

That is just a restatement. What is the explanation? This strikes me as an incomplete picture. Either that or Krsna was alone and then decided to become many which we know is not the case. "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings....."

 

Is there not activity in Vaikuntha happening quite independently of Maha-vishnu folding and unfolding the material manifestation?

[theist]

And we should not forget this explantion from Jaiva Dharma when reading those references.

 

 

Vrajanatha, “Why did you refer to the karma of the jiva as being anadi, beginningless?”

 

Raghunatha dasa Babaji, “The prime cause for all karma is the desire to execute such karma. Avidya, ignorance, is the root of this material desire and is defined as forgetfulness of the truth: ‘I am the eternal servitor of Sri Krishna.’ This avidya did not suddenly sprout out within the time-span of the material universal creation—the seed of this root of karma originates in the matrix of the tatastha position of the jiva at the juncture the material and spiritual creations. Since the source of karma is thus untraceable within the mundane time of material world, karma is said to be anadi.”

[theist]

I'm going back to sleep. It's Brahma murhurta and if I was a yogi I would chant my beads but I am too dull to be a introspective sage or bhakta.

 

[suchandra]

 

This apparently states there the jiva had no existence prior to their manifestation from Maha-vishnu. I question this.

 

My view (admittedly limtated by imperfect senses) is that what is being expressed by the one became many does not take into account the Spiritual Sky at all and merely refers to Vishnu "exhaling" or causing a new material manifestation.

 

This exhalation always follows a previous inhalation or annhiliation. This process is beginningless but it doesn't mean the jiva did not have an another existence apart from being entangled in this process. The prision always exists before one goes to live there and will continue to exist after the prison has regained his freedom.

 

I am not convinced by Tripurari's explanation. IF I understand it properly to begin with.

 

The souls who slumber within Vishnu in susupti als have their subtle bodies which is the basis of how Brahma will position them within the new creation.

Does Tripurari swami say that jiva-tattva is coming into existence when Maha-vishnu creates the universes? That jiva-tattva existed before creation within Maha-vishnu but not fully manifested as individual living entities? This would make sense in so far as there're so many conditioned souls within the material world. Why should so many jivas fall from the spiritual world into the material world?

[Sarva gattah]

My young nephew was Surfing the web and came across http://www.govinddevji.net/ that really attracted him, Its preaching like that that starts making devotees, now he is reading a chapter of Krsna book.. He had a project for school on Jaipur and used this site. Hare Krishna.

 

I just like to add, we all must take a stronger stand that our constitutional position is eternally nitya-siddha without any origin.

 

It is therefore impossible for the Impersonal feature of Brahman to exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence is the marginal living entities surrounding Krishna and His unlimited Purusha expansions, just as the rays of the sun surround the sun. (Analogy only, never to be taken literally because our original perpetual position is sat, cit ananda VIGRAHA)

Only in the external realm outside the devotional active personal Vaikunthas and the central Goloka-Vrndavana planet, does ones forgetfulness of Krishna automatically cause the manifestation of the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. This dreaming like departure from Vaikuntha is the marginal living entities bodiless consciousness that is made up of thoughts, dreams and desires of self importance and grander.

 

Such ‘awareness’ is expressed as a living individual spark of jiva consciousness that is often referred to as an atom or molecule living as individual sparks of light within an effulgence that is part of a collective that appear like individual rays of sunshine, which is the external impersonal aspect of Brahman, Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky. This consciousness has all the substance of the jiva and is a real feature, therefore each individual is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair in our dimension of awareness.

 

In this condition ‘outside the active personal devotional Vaikunthas’, the jiva can exists in both the material creation as well as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, dreaming in the mahat-tattva or being dreamless or dormant in the impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyot. In both cases the marginal living entities are ‘consciously’ no longer aware of Krishna and His eternal pastimes.

 

They also have no memory or recollection of their own endless Krishna Conscious svarupa body that is perpetually situated in Vaikuntha. Therefore, just as in the absents of light there is darkness, similarly we find that the rebellious bodiless ‘dreaming’ consciousness, or lower self of the marginal living entities, are unable to see the transcendental body they really are. Therefore their existence is now described by the Vedas outside the divine realm of Vaikuntha, as particle of non-differentiated character due to the marginal living entities forgetfulness of Krishna and their own Svarupa body that is endlessly serving Krishna within the eternal realm beyond mundane time and space.

 

We are always nitya siddha and due to being marginal, we sometimes misuse our free will to choose and forget this fact, we lose track of our original position. From another viewpoint - ‘We are always marginal whether we are as our eternal nitya-siddha body in Goloka or as our secondary nitya-baddha consciousness in the material creation.

 

MARGINAL MEANS - The living entities are situated between the material and spiritual potencies yet due to eternal time, which means a creation that is indestructible and imperishable, the marginal living entity or jiva-tatastha, already has a perpetual bodily (svarupa) relationship with Krishna. The living entity can use their free will (that is a characteristic of being marginal) and decide at any moment to abandon their service to <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com]<font face=" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and the body they really are persistently and enter the material creation or mahat-tattva as a secondary 'dreaming consciousness projection, which then automatically becomes under the jurisdiction of Maha-Vishnu. Therefore every object the living entity encounters within the maha-tattva, like ethereal (subtle secular) and biological (secular) containers and there surroundings, are the inferior energy of the Lord Krishna, facilitated by His Maha Sankarsana expansion Balarama who is the dreaming Maha-Vishnu and creator of the mahat-tattva

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>In this way the living entities are called marginal potency because they can be surrounded by the <st1:place>Superior</st1:place> energy or be covered by the inferior energy.

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>The inferior energy has no life and is only moved by life, moved by the marginal entities nitya-baddha consciousness and simultaneously Maha-Vishnu as the supersoul that accompanies every jiva-bhutah.(nitya-baddha)

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>In this way both the nitya siddha body and the nitya-baddha consciousness are expression of the jiva-tatastha (marginal living entity)

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>The nitya-baddha consciousness is also fully dependant on Maha-Vishnu like the marginal living entities nitya siddha body is fully dependant in Goloka, HOWEVER NO SOULS ORIGINATE FROM MAHA-VISHNU.

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>Only the ethereal and biological vessels (material bodies) are provided by Maha-Vishnu via His representatives like Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva and the 33,000,000 demigods so that the marginal living entity in their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness can obtain vessels in Maha-Vishnu's creation according to their Karma.

[suchandra]

 

My young nephew was Surfing the web and came across http://www.govinddevji.net/ that really attracted him, Its preaching like that that starts making devotees. He had a project for school on Jaipur and used this site. Hare Krishna.

You mean that this website is making devotees? Oh, that's very nice! This should be added here.

[theist]

 

Does Tripurari swami say that jiva-tattva is coming into existence when Maha-vishnu creates the universes? That jiva-tattva existed before creation within Maha-vishnu but not fully manifested as individual living entities?

 

 

theist: I am not convinced by Tripurari's explanation. IF I understand it properly to begin with.

 

Doesn't he? Sounds like it to me but as you can see from my quote above I am not 100% sure that is what he means and considering the difference between Tripurai Maharaja and myself I should first consider that I am not understanding him properly which is most likely the case. You posted his lecture so maybe you can tell me.

 

 

 

This would make sense in so far as there're so many conditioned souls within the material world. Why should so many jivas fall from the spiritual world into the material world?

 

No it makes no sense at all especially on the basis of numbers that fell from the spiritual world. As I understand it both fields are unlimited and at the same time a 1/3 may be fallen at anyone time. Paradoxical to the mind but what's new in that. Just because the numbers astound you or I is proof of nothing.

 

Open to correction though if someone has better information.

[suchandra]

 

Doesn't he? Sounds like it to me but as you can see from my quote above I am not 100% sure that is what he means and considering the difference between Tripurai Maharaja and myself I should first consider that I am not understanding him properly which is most likely the case. You posted his lecture so maybe you can tell me.

 

 

 

 

No it makes no sense at all especially on the basis of numbers that fell from the spiritual world. As I understand it both fields are unlimited and at the same time a 1/3 may be fallen at anyone time. Paradoxical to the mind but what's new in that. Just because the numbers astound you or I is proof of nothing.

 

Open to correction though if someone has better information.

Probably again one of those questions which can be only answered satisfactory like for example in Lord Brahma's situation, who got his questions answered only in full when Lord Krishna imparted real knowledge into Lord Brahma's heart. Book learning is nice but real knowledge is revealed within the heart. There're surely many members on this forum who know the answer but don't say it because it was revealed within the heart. Unto those who it isnt yet revealed, they have to wait.

 

On youtube:

[theist]

Well somethings are made very clear in scripture and one of those things is that Maha-vishnu is a somewhat distant expansion of Krsna and that Krsna-lila goes on quite independently of anything Mahavishnu may be doing. Maha-vishnu is Krsna's form as the great Dreamer ( I can hear Guruvani already ) who makes the larger field or dreamscape for the infitesimal dreamers to dream in.

 

The awakened world of Vaikuntha is eternally awake and populated so the idea that God as Maha-vishnu desired to become many simply cannot be the origin of the souls

[Guruvani]

 

the idea that God as Maha-vishnu desired to become many simply cannot be the origin of the souls

That is an opinion, but we need shastric support when making claims.

Living entities are by-products of the absolute.

We are by-products.

Nothing very special.

 

Chapter 20: The Goal of Vedānta Study Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Teachings of Lord Caitanya

 

 

For the Supreme Absolute Truth, there is no change. It is simply that a by-product results from His inconceivable powers of action. In other words, a relative truth is produced out of the Supreme Truth. When a chair is produced out of crude wood, it is said that a by-product is produced. The Supreme Absolute Truth, Brahman, is immutable, and when we find a by-product — the living entity or this cosmic manifestation — it is a transformation, or a by-product of the Supreme.

[CCC]

pleasese delete this post, I made an update

[Guruvani]

According to Srila Prabhupada in Krishna Book, we have not yet had association with Krishna, because he says that if a devotee becomes perfect he gets to take birth in a universe where Krishna's pastimes are being manifest and at that time gets his FIRST OPPORTUNITY to associate with Krishna.

 

Obviously, the statement that "first opportunity" indicates that we have never before had an opportunity to associate with Krishna.

 

As such, there is no possibility of falling from Krishna's service and association if we are still waiting for our "first opportunity" to associate with Krishna in Gokula Vrindavan as it is being manifest in a material universe.

 

If we already have a body in Goloka that is in a coma then we would be able to go straight back to that body. Since we don't already have a body in Goloka as some person is saying, then we have to take birth in Gokula Vrindavan to establish our spiritual relationship with Krishna and attain a spiritual body which we don't presently have at this time.

 

 

 

 

 

The fact is, those who are always engaged in Krsna consciousness and mature, pure devotional service are given the chance, after death, to gain Krsna's association in the universes within the material world. Krsna's pastimes are continually going on, either in this universe or in another universe. Just as the sun globe is passing through many places across this earthly planet, so Krsna-lila, or the transcendental advent and pastimes of Krsna, are also going on continually, either in this or another universe. The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly.

So, there is no going straight back to Goloka and some imaginary spiritual body that some people mistakenly think they have waiting there in a coma to be revived.

First, one must go to a universe where the pastimes of Krishna are being manifest and establish his relationship with Krishna after having taken birth from the womb of a gopi.

 

If we had been with Krishna before, then it would be our NEXT OPPORTUNTIY not our FIRST OPPORTUNITY.

There is a big difference bewtween FIRST and NEXT.

[theist]

Didn't mean to start this ping pong game up again. Just can't accept this maha-vishnu idea born into illusion as the origin of the individual soul idea.

 

[Guruvani]

 

That is an opinion, but we need shastric support when making claims.

Living entities are by-products of the absolute.

We are by-products.

Nothing very special.

 

 

 

By-product

 

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[Guruvani]

Actually, the jivas are manifested by the Paramatma feature of Garbhodakashiy Vishnu who is Ksirodakashayi Vishnu - the Supersoul of all living entities in this universe.

 

 

Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati says in the purport to Brahma-samhita 5.16:

 

“The innumerable jivas as spiritual particles emanating from the oversoul in the form of pencils of rays of effulgence, have no relation with the mundane world when they come to know themselves to be the eternal servants of the Supreme Lord. They are then incorporated into the realm of Vaikuntha. But when they desire to lord it over Maya, forgetting their real identity. the egotistic principle Sambhu entering into their entities makes them identify themselves as separated enjoyers of mundane entities.”

 

[CCC]

Meaning of Nitya Badha by Srila Prabhupada <hr style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" size="1"> <!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->

"We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed."

 

From Maha Vishnu Sprung the causal ocean, then He rest in him, He creates the mahat tattva and with his glance He inject the jivas , from His pores unlimited universes are manifested as seeds then they grow until reach gigantic porportions, every universe has the form of a ball and he has 7 layers of earth, water, fire, air, sky, total energy and Ego. In the Hollow portion of the ball-universe there is water and space, there the Lord rest, as his second incarnation, in the ocean and from Him born Lord Brahma. Lord Brahma lives 100 years (for us is billions of years) after that, the Whole cosmic manifestation is destroyed (diluted) and enter again in the body of Mahavishnu and the jivas that didn't return to the espiritual world are placed in the body of mahavishnu again in a deep sleep state (susupti) . For Mahavishnu thi is less than a second (nimesa). So, for the resident of vaikhunta and Goloka this is just a tiny fraction of time, voila! also the same for the conditioned soul that get liberated!, has passed just seconds

 

So nitya badha means that is not possible trace when the jiva become conditioned or started his karma at least with material calculations, but this not mean that the jiva was ever conditioned from the beginning of his creation , or manifestation or whatever you would like to call it.

 

Nitya-badha vadi: Thanks god for putting me in this miserable condition, you are guilty! why me! is just bad chance or azar?.

Mahavishnu: haha, Owned!. (in a sarcastic mood)

[Vigraha]

 

Meaning of Nitya Badha by Srila Prabhupada <HR style="COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->

"We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed."

 

From Maha Vishnu Sprung the causal ocean, then He rest in him, He creates the mahat tattva and with his glance He inject the jivas , from His pores unlimited universes are manifested as seeds then they grow until reach gigantic porportions, every universe has the form of a ball and he has 7 layers of earth, water, fire, air, sky, total energy and Ego. In the Hollow portion of the ball-universe there is water and space, there the Lord rest, as his second incarnation, in the ocean and from Him born Lord Brahma. Lord Brahma lives 100 years (for us is billions of years) after that, the Whole cosmic manifestation is destroyed (diluted) and enter again in the body of Mahavishnu and the jivas that didn't return to the espiritual world are placed in the body of mahavishnu again in a deep sleep state (susupti) . For Mahavishnu thi is less than a second (nimesa). So, for the resident of vaikhunta and Goloka this is just a tiny fraction of time, voila! also the same for the conditioned soul that get liberated!, has passed just seconds

 

So nitya badha means that is not possible trace when the jiva become conditioned or started his karma at least with material calculations, but this not mean that the jiva was ever conditioned from the beginning of his creation , or manifestation or whatever you would like to call it.

 

Nitya-badha vadi: Thanks god for putting me in this miserable condition, you are guilty! why me! is just bad chance or azar?.

Mahavishnu: haha, Owned!. (in a sarcastic mood)

 

 

Because the Kingdom of God is an Eternal Personal Active Loving Devotional Place that is ever lasting and never aging, the nitya-siddha-svarupa bodies are always there – Nitya-siddha means — eternally established. This is what permanence, perpetual and eternity means – no beginning, no end and never changing (although lila-rasa — the mellows of a pastime, can change in the spiritual universe). On the other hand eternally conditioned or nitya-baddha is only a temporary stated of consciousness of the marginal living entity as Explained by Srila Prabhupada -

 

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

 

NOTE - Eternally conditioned means nitya baddha

Eternally liberated means nitya siddha

 

Only nitya siddha is truly perpetual

[Vigraha]

 

Well somethings are made very clear in scripture and one of those things is that Maha-vishnu is a somewhat distant expansion of Krsna and that Krsna-lila goes on quite independently of anything Mahavishnu may be doing. Maha-vishnu is Krsna's form as the great Dreamer ( I can hear Guruvani already ) who makes the larger field or dreamscape for the infitesimal dreamers to dream in.

 

The awakened world of Vaikuntha is eternally awake and populated so the idea that God as Maha-vishnu desired to become many simply cannot be the origin of the souls