Fall theory is worse than Mayavada says Narasingha Maharaja

[Guruvani]

Narasingha Maharaja:

 

Actually, the fall theory is worse than Mayavada for it suggests that not only brahman but Parabrahman may be covered by maya.

 

Srila Prabhupada states, "It is a most ludicrous argument to say that the Supreme Lord is overpowered by His own material energy." (Bhag. 3.7.9, purp.) This is the conception of the impersonalists who think that a portion of the Lord's svarupa sakti, the Lord's most powerful sakti, can be covered by maya—that maya can cover brahman.

 

The theory that one can become illusioned and fall introduces imperfection in the [infallible] spiritual world—this is Mayavada philosophy. It derides the concept of the Lord's perfect abode. It is stated explicitly that the spiritual world is a manifestation of the Lord's internal pleasure potency, svarupa-sakti, the Lord's most powerful potency.

 

Yet, even disregarding the direct statement of the Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.9.10, that maya cannot enter the spiritual world, this theory [that all jivas in the material world come by falldown from the spiritual world] requires that the eternal associates of Krsna be influenced by maya while in the spiritual world, in order for them to become illusioned.

[Guruvani]

Narasingha Maharaja:

 

Certainly it is considered an imperfection of the spiritual world that one firmly situated under the personal protection of the divine internal potency of the Lord and ecstatically engaged in the Lord's loving transcendental service in "the highest perfectional stage of living conditions," (Bhag. 2.9.10, purport), can fall from that to repeated hellish and degraded lives of birth and death.

[Guruvani]

Narasingha Maharaja:

 

Are we to accept that uncountable formerly self-realized living entities, billions is just an acre of countryside, all became envious and fell from the bliss of the Lord's personal association? Perhaps Vaikuntha should then be named Sakuntha, the abode of anxiety.

[Guruvani]

Narasingha Maharaja:

 

It is our contention that the actual sastric truth regarding the jiva's original positon as presented herein and which is thoroughly supported by all our acaryas, has eluded many devotees due to their offenses to highly situated Vaisnavas.

[suchandra]

 

Narasingha Maharaja:

 

Thanks so much for clarifying this important issue about Vaishnava philosophy. The only question which remains - why can there be so different understandings circulating among followers of Gaudiya-Vaishnavism?

[theist]

From reading Narasingha's quotes it is readily apparent that he does not understand the argument the other side is putting forth.

 

No one is saying that maya enters Vaikuntha and snatchs souls at random from Krsna's service. That is truly an absurb idea.

 

It also amounts to a strawman.

 

What they are saying is that a desire to experience existence as the central enjoyer arises from within the jiva and then the jiva is immediately( not one second or even a nano second because still no time influence) self projected out of his svarupa form into a dream existence.

 

Some say that at this "point" (still not influenced by material time) having seemingly given up his svarupa form he existence only as a pinpoint of Brahman until drawn by the need for personal relationships he "falls" further by dreaming up material varigatedness pervertedly based upon on the variegatedness in the spiritual sky. and at this TIME he has enteredthe three modes of material nature and drifts into further entanglement.

 

That is basicly the argument.

 

At anyonje time now for months there has been as many a three or even four threads on the front page of this forum running the same debate and those sharing the position of Narasingha Swami still haven't understoof their opponents point of view.

 

WHAT A COLOSSAL WASTE OF TIME AND ENERGY!!!

 

Now if you really understand the position of the other side you will also see how futile it is tp try and resolve this by a mind that is conditioned by material time. It is not possible.

 

Now I have my own question of doubt that I could put forward to those that think this way but I don't because I know they can't answer it. It will come in time through internal revelation and NO OTHER WAY.

 

Time is better spent helping others in this world by promoting theism instead of being enraptured listening to oneself talk on this issue.

[Guruvani]

 

From reading Narasingha's quotes it is readily apparent that he does not understand the argument the other side is putting forth.

 

No one is saying that maya enters Vaikuntha and snatchs souls at random from Krsna's service. That is truly an absurb idea.

 

It also amounts to a strawman.

 

Your position is trying to have it both ways.

There is no way for a nitya-siddha parishad of Krishna to come under the influnece of ignorance unless and until maya reaches him from within the internal svarupa-shakti of Goloka.

 

You want to make a claim and then insist that it does not violate shastric siddhanta on the infallible nature of the svarupa-shakti and all the jivas sheltered there.

 

This is a perfect example of talking out of both sides of your mouth and trying to deny the actual implications that the fall theory involves.

 

The fall theory cannot work without maya having power to enter the svarupa-shakti and create havoc upon the pure devotees of Krishna.

 

Such a theory is absurd.

[Guruvani]

The fall fairytale might have seemed like a useful device back in the early days of the movement, but in the 21st century it is proving to be exposed as a serious philosophical anomaly that is pushing ISKCON into a an obscure corner of the Gaudiya Vaishnava world.

 

It's time to leave behind the fairytale and get with the real siddhanta of the Gaudiya Vaishnava shastra.

 

Too much purport and too many preaching devices have come home to roost in the ISKCON party.

[Guruvani]

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Swami B.A. Paramadvaiti Maharaja

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Question: I cannot understand how it comes that if it is so good in the spiritual world, how dumb we must be to force Krishna to remove us from there? I just really cannot imagine that all the material universes were created just for our sense gratification. Well it is logic: if we can't do it there, we must do it here, and actually we do not even enjoy it. It is like that. Did we personally ask to come here? Or is it that there is some downward degradation, away from Krishna? How do such toughts can come up within us if we are there? I really don't understand, but I understand that now I'm here. And then there is this material creation. How could I choose to come here? It's just unconcievable.

 

Answer: In the purport of the verse from the Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 3, chapter 16, verse 29 Srila Prabhupada mentions three times that a jiva that took birth in the spiritual world cannot fall down again, if not arranged and approved by the Lord himself.

 

It is a very surprising topic. Because the supreme Lord, the personality of Godhead, can do whatever He wants. He is free to do anything, and on top of it, everything He does is good and beneficial. He is the only wellwisher of all living entities. He is not against any single one of them, but for Him to exhibit His various pastimes, it takes many different, delightful things to happen, which in the long run give incredible blessings to the people in this world.

 

In this purport Srila Prabhupada says three times within half a page, that a living entitiy cannot fall from Vaikuntha, will not fall from Vaikuntha, never falls from Vaikuntha. Even though he says this so clear here, it happend later, that in the movement of my spiritual master - after his departure - interpretations were drawn from a few other indications, completely denying this puport and indirectly declaring that Srila Prabhupada is three times wrong; three times wrong in the same purport.

 

This topic was not only millions of times discussed, but also millions of times misunderstood. To understand, or not to understand the Lord, is purely a question of grace. Logical sequences do not necessarily favour us in this respect. The speculators have not only said that the jiva falls from Vaikuntha, but they are also claiming that jivas fall from Krsnaloka – that means falling from the personal, direct association with the Supreme Lord; falling from the nitya-siddha position.

 

This idea is not at all backed up by sastra. Of course, if Krsna wants any of his associates to go somewhere and to do something on His behalf, He would have the free will to do so. We cannot say, that Krsna cannot do this but in no way we can come up with a theory and try to substantiate it by wild speculations, which claims that every living entity comes from a personal relationship with Krsna in Goloka Vrindavan and fell down to this world due to misbehaviour there. If this is the case, there would be plenty of misbehaviour in the spiritual world, wouldn´t it? Just imagine if amongst the cowhard boys, here and there, the one or the other ends up missing. What would his friends think about: “Oh were is Gopa?” Then the others would say: “Don't you know what he did yesterday? Krsna told him to get lost.” Their hearts would be crumbled continuously in Goloka Vrindavana. How could you call it the spiritual world? If somebody from our own lines falls down, we are suffering. It is such an painful experience. So I am amazed, what the mind is capable to produce such ideas.

 

Well, sometimes Prabhupada may have mentioned in a letter to someone, that the idea, that we come from Brahman is rather impersonal. So he said, we do come from Krsna. We do not come from Brahman – because he could see, that their interpretation was: If I come from Brahman, then I better go back to Brahman again. They would not take Krsna in consideration as the supreme generating power.

 

Last not least the fall down, the return, the relationship and all the behaviour is covered by a certain veil. By the sweet will of the Supreme it is covered by a certain uncertainty which devotees have penetrated here and there with their tikas by saying things like: there was some apathy towards service; there was some indifference towards the Lord, there was some desire to control the nature; there was a misuse of free will. We argue in one way or another and that is kind of reasonable because you see that we can be good or bad according to our capricious decisions. It is reasonable that this capacity caused us at some point to go the wrong way.

 

So the veil is there, meaning you cannot see everything as clear as without the veil. The veil which is covering the relationship is a very sensible veil. There is a reason for that, because without that veil, there would be no question of free will. If everything would be crystal clear, our material existence would be a crystal clear nonsense and we would not have any choice to go on with our pleasure seeking mentality. It is very sad actually, people want the Vedas and Krsna to give things which Krsna prefers not to give, and due to that souls make concoctions, or even worse, they reject them all together. But it is not our right. We are simply meant to accept the guidance from the pure devotees, like Srila Prabhupada, who in a short purport emphaticly says, that nobody falls from Vaikuntha. Then we may speculate: “Oh, he means Vaikuntha, but from Goloka, yes we fall.”

 

First of all Goloka is part of Vaikuntha and not only that, it is the top most part of Vaikuntha and those who cannot see that, they cannot recognize that. Well, maybe they are prefering the relationship in awe and reverence, like the aisvarya relationship with the Supreme Lord and thus they do not pay special attention to the Lord. Even though, who can do away with the sweetness?

 

So, in this particular verse Srila Prabhupada makes it so clear that we will not fall down, when we reach Lord Krsna's abode. That means, nobody who has been there before fell down either. That is a logical sequence. But we did come from somewhere, and we did come from the Lord, because we did not invent ourselves. So there is an agency of eternal soul production, if you want to call it in that way. And they all get the chance to go there or to come here. It is up to him. It is behind that veil, because if we would remove that veil, nobody could be in maya for one second, because the crystal clear confrontation with the truth would make it impossible to go against the truth. So there would be no freedom. We would just be fabricated to fit in one single unit, which means submission, and then everybody in the spiritual world would be a naturally submissive devotee without any option; and that is too much robot like, it is too much zombie like, it is too mechanic and manipulated. So Krsna has not done it in that way.

 

Everything He does is good. He does not make anything wrong. We do, He does not.

 

These are not words taken out of someone's mind. All is described there: antaranga-, bahiranga-, tatastha-sakti; and the light, the brahmajyoti, the effulgance coming from the Lord in the form of sparks, which are just each and everyone part of His infinte energy. So potentiallity of individuality development by the sweet will of the Lord for raising in the soul the chance to come into a personal encounter with the origin of its existence. That is Krsna, the beloved of all souls.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guruvani]

 

From reading Narasingha's quotes it is readily apparent that he does not understand the argument the other side is putting forth.

 

 

Actually, it appears that YOU do not understand the argument they are putting forth.

You don't understand the implications of the fall theory.

 

Narasingha Maharaja understands well what they are saying and he clearly says that the theory is worse than Mayavada philosophy.

[theist]

 

Your position is trying to have it both ways.

There is no way for a nitya-siddha parishad of Krishna to come under the influnece of ignorance unless and until maya reaches him from within the internal svarupa-shakti of Goloka.

 

You want to make a claim and then insist that it does not violate shastric siddhanta on the infallible nature of the svarupa-shakti and all the jivas sheltered there.

 

This is a perfect example of talking out of both sides of your mouth and trying to deny the actual implications that the fall theory involves.

 

The fall theory cannot work without maya having power to enter the svarupa-shakti and create havoc upon the pure devotees of Krishna.

 

Such a theory is absurd.

 

You don't listen to others Guruvani. You should at least listen to those you plan on arguing with. Here you misrepresent my position by saying I want to have it both ways. Wrong. I am not convinced of either idea. I am just stating the argument that one side is making. I truly have no fixed position because the fact is I do not know. Can you process that much at least.

 

The difference between a real debate of ideas and a school yard quarrel and pissing contest between adolescents is that in a real debate the propents of either side take the time to understand the subject from both sides which includes the one they are opposing.

 

Anyway, who am I to interfer? You won't head Prabhupada's admonition not to keep it up so why should you listen to me. All I can do is remind you of his advice.

 

Anyway, piss on.

[Guruvani]

 

You won't head Prabhupada's admonition not to keep it up so why should you listen to me. All I can do is remind you of his advice.

.

That is just an attempt to derail the defeat of the bogus philosophy that involves a lot more than "origins".

 

It involved serious deviations from Gaudiya siddhanta and a class of neophytes that presume to know better than the seniormost Gaudiya Vaishnavas on the planet.

 

If Narasingha Maharaja, Paramadvaiti Maharaja, Tripurari Maharaja and other senior devotees have taken time to address the issue I hardly consider it as some taboo "origins" debate that should not be discussed.

 

It's not just about "origins".

It deals with many important philosophical issues beyond any "origins" debate.

 

The fall theory is slinging mud on the transcendence and it should not be tolerated.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

In agreement with theist that these discussions are a waste of time (and bandwidth), I will restate the question I asked on a similar thread:

 

In what way is it *useful* in one's spiritual life to think of themselves as nitya-siddha?

[Kulapavana]

One should ask himself WHY is this theory propagated? (That applies to ANY theory, btw.) Then there are other questions that help puting things in perspective, such as:

 

1. Is it a standard understanding in our (broad) sampradaya?

2. Who came up with this theory?

3. Does it meet the guru, sadhu, and shastra criteria (shabda, anumana)?

4. Does it make sense (pratyaksa) or is it verifiable in the realm of logic and reason?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Too much bother. Let's look at it from the perspective of utility.

 

 

One should ask himself WHY is this theory propagated? (That applies to ANY theory, btw.) Then there are other questions that help puting things in perspective, such as:

 

1. Is it a standard understanding in our (broad) sampradaya?

2. Who came up with this theory?

3. Does it meet the guru, sadhu, and shastra criteria (shabda, anumana)?

4. Does it make sense (pratyaksa) or is it verifiable in the realm of logic and reason?

[CCC]

 

Are we to accept that uncountable formerly self-realized living entities, billions is just an acre of countryside, all became envious and fell from the bliss of the Lord's personal association? Perhaps Vaikuntha should then be named Sakuntha, the abode of anxiety.

 

Srila Prabhupada is very clear.

 

Is not posible to fall down from Vaikhunta because maya can't enter there, but if you want to leave by your free will why not? are you a slave of Krsna? NO He is not a tyrant, you have free will and if you want to leave for a while, Krsna can't do nothing, He can say you don't go is not a very good place and advise you, but He is not responsible for this, moreover, He come with us as paramatma and see all what are we doing and when we are exhausted here He made the arrangement to go back to home, also the soul may know what is hapening in the material world but the soul has not the experience, so for the soul is like and adventure to come here the soul is not aware of what means to come to the material world and Krsna let him to come because that soul will get the experience. In all this journey He knows all past present and future of the spirit soul and He knows that He will attain again liberation in the future, If Lord Krsna don't give permission to the soul to come to this spiritual world, that means that He is imperfect and not complete and limited.

 

As Srila Bhaktisidanta says in brahma samhita, "tatastha means Jiva". we are not matter and we are not God, we are part and parcel of God and qualitatively up to 78% we are equal to Krsna, but in power and quantity there is a huge difference.

 

"His acit potency. Hence the jiva potency. though very small in magnitude, is still superior to acit potency or Maya. This potency has another name, viz., tatastha or marginal potency. being located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and mundane potencies. He is susceptible to the influence of the material energy owing to his small magnitude. But so long as he remains submissive to Krsna, the Lord of Maya, he is not liable to the influence of Maya."

[Kulapavana]

 

Too much bother. Let's look at it from the perspective of utility.

 

Today's "utility" is often tomorrow's source of confusion and doubt.

[Kulapavana]

 

Is not posible to fall down from Vaikhunta because maya can't enter there, but if you want to leave by your free will why not? are you a slave of Krsna? NO He is not a tyrant, you have free will and if you want to leave for a while, Krsna can't do nothing...

 

right now you have a free will, and you can smash your toe with a hammer for example. why are you NOT doing it? because you KNOW it causes pain. you are not stupid or ignorant - but if you come under the influence of illusion (MAYA) you may desire to exercise your "freedom" in that area.

 

in the same way, the very idea of some eternal associate of Krsna in Goloka desiring to run away into the material world REQUIRES illusion, or MAYA, to be influencing his decision.

 

thus this absurd idea of fall from Goloka requires Maya to be active in the spiritual world - an idea that ALL Vaishnavas firmly reject, except for some poorly trained members of Iskcon.

[theist]

 

In agreement with theist that these discussions are a waste of time (and bandwidth), I will restate the question I asked on a similar thread:

 

In what way is it *useful* in one's spiritual life to think of themselves as nitya-siddha?

 

Yes exactly. If it is my eternal ever-existing position that I have dreampt myself away from or only a potential one for me that I have never experienced before what is the difference. Either way I have to awaken to the reality of it, which from my present perspective, seems quite new.

 

Again as long as we are conditioned by the time factor the answer cannot be properly conceptualized. This is true of all transcendental topics but this one is impossible to take in even on an intellectual level without that freedom.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

The Lord grants us our free will, it is not an "inalienable right". The Lord can remove our free will just as easily because the Lord is Absolute. There are no restrictions whatsoever on the Lord.

 

So, to say "Krsna can't do nothing" is to reveal a clear theological misconception. Sri Krishna can do *anything*.

 

When you say:

 

 

In all this journey He knows all past present and future of the spirit soul and He knows that He will attain again liberation in the future, If Lord Krsna don't give permission to the soul to come to this spiritual world, that means that He is imperfect and not complete and limited.

 

you are actually *denying* our free will, aren't you? If the Lord knows when we will surrender then just how free are we?

 

When you say "...He knows that He will attain..." why is that second "He" capitalized? Are you saying the jiva-soul is God?

 

Much confusion.

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada is very clear.

 

Is not posible to fall down from Vaikhunta because maya can't enter there, but if you want to leave by your free will why not? are you a slave of Krsna? NO He is not a tyrant, you have free will and if you want to leave for a while, Krsna can't do nothing, He can say you don't go is not a very good place and advise you, but He is not responsible for this, moreover, He come with us as paramatma and see all what are we doing and when we are exhausted here He made the arrangement to go back to home, also the soul may know what is hapening in the material world but the soul has not the experience, so for the soul is like and adventure to come here the soul is not aware of what means to come to the material world and Krsna let him to come because that soul will get the experience. In all this journey He knows all past present and future of the spirit soul and He knows that He will attain again liberation in the future, If Lord Krsna don't give permission to the soul to come to this spiritual world, that means that He is imperfect and not complete and limited.

 

As Srila Bhaktisidanta says in brahma samhita, "tatastha means Jiva". we are not matter and we are not God, we are part and parcel of God and qualitatively up to 78% we are equal to Krsna, but in power and quantity there is a huge difference.

 

"His acit potency. Hence the jiva potency. though very small in magnitude, is still superior to acit potency or Maya. This potency has another name, viz., tatastha or marginal potency. being located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and mundane potencies. He is susceptible to the influence of the material energy owing to his small magnitude. But so long as he remains submissive to Krsna, the Lord of Maya, he is not liable to the influence of Maya."

[suchandra]

 

Again as long as we are conditioned by the time factor the answer cannot be properly conceptualized.

Already when we only try to find out how all the 2 million prisoners in US happened to be thrown into prison there wont be an easy way to find this out without having insight into the individual court decisions. And for this we need power of audit by the Department of Justice. Next, Convention of Human Rights may ask what you are going to do with this access of records since there is data protection for such kind of things etc. etc. So already on the material platform you cant get information like that very easily so what to speak of wanting to know why somebody got thrown into this material world?

Isnt this also called invasion of privacy?

 

[CCC]

 

right now you have a free will, and you can smash your toe with a hammer for example. why are you NOT doing it? because you KNOW it causes pain. you are not stupid or ignorant - but if you come under the influence of illusion (MAYA) you may desire to exercise your "freedom" in that area.

 

in the same way, the very idea of some eternal associate of Krsna in Goloka desiring to run away into the material world REQUIRES illusion, or MAYA, to be influencing his decision.

 

thus this absurd idea of fall from Goloka requires Maya to be active in the spiritual world - an idea that ALL Vaishnavas firmly reject, except for some poorly trained members of Iskcon.

Yes if you smash your head with a hammer it will cause pain and you know that because you have experimented that before. Is like when a child put the hands into the fire for the first time, the child doesn't know that that cause pain. after the experience he will think "ouch, that hurts me I will not do again" . So when the soul comes to this world is the same, He doesn't know, He heard from Krsna is better to remain here, but if the soul wants to come he has free will. so Krsna say him go then. No, desiring to leave Krsna doesnt requieres maya, free will is native to the soul. Maya can't touch vaikhunta

[CCC]

 

The Lord grants us our free will, it is not an "inalienable right". The Lord can remove our free will just as easily because the Lord is Absolute. There are no restrictions whatsoever on the Lord.

 

So, to say "Krsna can't do nothing" is to reveal a clear theological misconception. Sri Krishna can do *anything*.

 

When you say:

 

 

 

you are actually *denying* our free will, aren't you? If the Lord knows when we will surrender then just how free are we?

 

When you say "...He knows that He will attain..." why is that second "He" capitalized? Are you saying the jiva-soul is God?

 

Much confusion.

I made a reply but the server quick me out, so I will not response again. Just Chant Hare Krsna.

[Guruvani]

Free will is only abused by the mentally deranged and ignorant.

Since the liberated souls are not mentally deranged or ignorant there is no possibility of choosing to leave the unlimted nectarean bliss of Goloka to become a worm in stool.

 

The even insinuate that liberated, perfected, self-realized souls at some point misuse their free will and choose to leave the loving service of Krishna is an asinine idea that completely contradicts everything that shastra says about the perfection of the liberated devotees in Goloka.

[Kulapavana]

 

Yes if you smash your head with a hammer it will cause pain and you know that because you have experimented that before.

 

NO! I never smashed my toe with the hammer and I still know it WILL cause me pain. It is called KNOWLEDGE, as opposed to IGNORANCE, or MAYA.

 

You dont have to EXPERIENCE something to KNOW it. That is a real knowledge.