Fall theory is worse than Mayavada says Narasingha Maharaja

[sevabhakta]

Those who are looking for any reason to reject Srila Prabhupada's authority will do things like believe that a transcription of a room conversation between Srila Prabhupada and those mentioned above was allowed by those mentioned above to be transcribed accurately.

 

And even if it was, he was speaking to "leaders" who had...

 

Already deviated multiple times to SP's knowledge.

Were proven ambitious and reckless to SP.

Who would eventually lead others away from SP.

 

So Sri Paramatma, dictating and directing through his transparent via media (the acarya), MAY have told those "leading men" that they MAY consult Sridhara Maharaja on philisophical issues, for HIS own reasons.

 

Possibilities.

 

1. Lord Paramatma knew exactly who he had to lead away from the simple exposition of the philosophy given by his acarya. You know, those who wanted to stay tangled in their speculation for another few eons.

 

2. Lord Paramatma knew which ones would use Sridhara's nice guidance in a twisted way to continue their charade, and wanted to make sure all the cheaters had proper ammunition.

 

3. Lord Paramatma knew which persons would, after rejecting Srila Prabhupada's version of the philosophy, would later wise up under Sridhara Maharaja's nice guidance, and actually make some advancement.

 

Broaden your mind, and the possibilities become evident.

 

Hare Krsna

[sevabhakta]

 

The only incompetent hypocrites here are his disciples claiming there is no need to consult the Vaishnava standard of guru, sadhu and shastra because WE HAVE EVERYTHING IN SP BOOKS.

 

Define the "everything" that is in SP books as this term seems quite vague to me.

 

The PROOF we dont have "everything" in SP books are the endless debates between devotees over fundamental issues such as guru position and qualifications, initiations, or fall from Vaikuntha. If you think we dont need help from outside SP books on this matter you are simply delusional. The proof is right here on this very forum.

 

Vaisnava standard 101.

 

Understand the past acaryas through the current acarya.

 

If Srila Prabhupada and Lord Nityananda did not consider Srila Prabhupada competent to represent Guru and Sadhu, the following would HAVE TO HAVE BEEN ARRANGED by Sri Krsna.

 

1. Sri Krsna would have had to install a saintly vaisnava (sadhu), everywhere Srila Prabhupada's disciples were, so that after everything he told them, or read in his books, they could consult that sadhu for confirmation.

 

2. Sri Krsna would have made Srila Prabhupada travel with a constant companion who was near his level of advancement to perform the same function.

 

Anymore Ludicrous arguements, or are you tired enough to accept silence for a while? You know, perhaps help stem the tide of these endless debates you are engaging in due to your own reluctance to accept higher authority than your own meager intelligence.

 

Hare Krsna

[fish]

The soul does not fall - is mayavada

[Kulapavana]

 

And even if it was, he was speaking to "leaders" who had...

 

Already deviated multiple times to SP's knowledge.

Were proven ambitious and reckless to SP.

Who would eventually lead others away from SP.

 

 

You keep forgetting that it was Srila Prabhupada alone who made them to be the leaders. These were some of his closest, chosen associates. He had every opportunity to pick the people he wanted for that job. He chose them because he had faith in them. Some indeed have been very questionable choices and ultimately proven themselves to be a huge disappointment. Yet at the time SP placed the helm of his Iskcon in their hands.

 

The instruction to go to Sridhara Maharaja for philosophical counsel as presented above is confirmed by a lot of devotees who were around SP at that time. Very few people doubt it is legitimate. And for a short time GBC was consulting with SM and tapes of these consultations do exist. Yet nowadays it is fashionable to simply say "Everything is in his books, just keep reading..."

[CCC]

 

You keep forgetting that it was Srila Prabhupada alone who made them to be the leaders. These were some of his closest, chosen associates. He had every opportunity to pick the people he wanted for that job. He chose them because he had faith in them. Some indeed have been very questionable choices and ultimately proven themselves to be a huge disappointment. Yet at the time SP placed the helm of his Iskcon in their hands.

 

The instruction to go to Sridhara Maharaja for philosophical counsel as presented above is confirmed by a lot of devotees who were around SP at that time. Very few people doubt it is legitimate. And for a short time GBC was consulting with SM and tapes of these consultations do exist. Yet nowadays it is fashionable to simply say "Everything is in his books, just keep reading..."

Srila Prabhupada never appointed gurus, all the elven are self appointed and the tape about Sridhar maharaj is a myth. Srila Prabhupada in tons of letters talks about his godbrothers.

 

Srila Prabhupada made the same as his spiritual master NEVER appointed a guru.

 

 

 

 

AVOIDING REPEATING THE GAUDIYA MATHA MISTAKE

by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

 

" I do not wish to discuss about activities of my Godbrothers but it is a fact they have no life for preaching work. All are satisfied with a place for residence in the name of a temple, they engage disciples to get foodstuff by transcendental devices and eat and sleep. (Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Rupanuga 4/28/74)

 

 

 

 

"They have no idea or brain how to broacast the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. My Guru Maharaja used to lament many times for this reason and he thought if one man at least had understood the principle of preaching then his mission would achieve success.

 

 

"In the latter days of my Guru Maharaja he was very disgusted. Actually, he left this world earlier, otherwise he would have continued to live for more years. Still he requested his disciples to form a strong Governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

 

 

"He never recommended anyone to be acarya of the Gaudiya Math. But Sridhara Maharaja is responsible for disobeying this order of Guru Maharaja, and he and others who are already dead unnecessarily thought that there must be one acarya. If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya.

 

 

 

 

"His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected.

 

 

 

 

"So Sridhara Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one acarya and later it proved a failure. The result is now everyone is claiming to be acarya even though they may be kanistha adhikari with no ability to preach. In some of the camps the acarya is being changed three times a year.

 

 

 

"Therefore we may not commit the same mistake in our ISKCON camp. Actually amongst my Godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya. So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them. This attempt was made previously by them, especially Madhava Maharaja and Tirtha Maharaja and Bon Maharaja but somehow or other I saved the situation. This is going on. We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them.

[Kulapavana]

 

Vaisnava standard 101.

 

Understand the past acaryas through the current acarya.

 

 

 

I have news for you: Srila Prabhupada is a past acarya now, just like Srila Bhaktisiddhanta or Bhaktivinoda are past acaryas. You cant walk up to him and ask him to clarify the fall from Goloka issue, or the ritvik controversy, can you? If you insist SP is a current acarya, get these answers from him on tape. So who is a current acarya now? Take your pick, as it is all based on faith of the Vaishnavas involved.

 

Another point. Disciples of Prabhupada like yourself now insist that you have to understand SP through them, thus positioning themselves as the authority on proper understanding. And I am not talking about Iskcon gurus - I am talking about you personally. If you think I need to uderstand Prabhupada based on your purports, you claim you are the new acarya and SP is a past acarya. There is NOBODY between a guru and a disciple, so dont place yourself there.

 

Folks like you simply make Srila Prabhupada into a cheap commodity you push on others. This is not the way this system works. NEVER place yourself between the guru and his disciples. That is also Vaisnava standard 101.

[Kulapavana]

 

Srila Prabhupada made the same as his spiritual master NEVER appointed a guru.

 

That would mean that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta did not appoint Prabhupada as a guru. Thus he is a self appointed guru just like the 11 SP "did not appoint". This is the "appointment" philosophy you are peddling... Actually, this is just a disappointment..

 

Wake up, smell the cowdung, come back when you are thinking straight.

[halavapada]

so there is no tape, no one have heard that tape.

The proof that Srila Prabhupada indeed recommended his disciples to get philisophical guidance from Srila Sridhar Maharaj is the fact that the whole GBC went to his matha just months after Prabhupada's tirobhava. Read or listen to those conversations and you will see many leading men at the time like Jayapataka Maharaj, TKG and Bhakti Caru Swami confirming that Prabhupada asked them to come.

[CCC]

 

That would mean that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta did not appoint Prabhupada as a guru. Thus he is a self appointed guru just like the 11 SP "did not appoint". This is the "appointment" philosophy you are peddling... Actually, this is just a disappointment..

 

Wake up, smell the cowdung, come back when you are thinking straight.

WRONG! Kulapavana you should read some history

 

"So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected."

Srila Bhaktissidanta never appointed a guru, hE said that make a goberning body and from there a self effulgent acarya will be selected, Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers disobeyed this order and started to vote for gurus. anyway the self effulget acarya is Srila Prabhupada because he never disobeyed his spiritual master and his master autorized Srila Prabhupada to preach in occident. Also his spiritual master say him in a dream to go and preach in occident, taht means that he has the blesing of his spiritual master

 

 

Prabhupada Said:

 

Still he requested his disciples to form a strong Governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He never recommended anyone to be acarya of the Gaudiya Math. But Sridhara Maharaja is responsible for disobeying this order of Guru Maharaja, and he and others who are already dead unnecessarily thought that there must be one acarya. If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected. So Sridhara Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one acarya and later it proved a failure. The result is now everyone is claiming to be acarya even though they may be kanistha adhikari with no ability to preach. In some of the camps the acarya is being changed three times a year. Therefore we may not commit the same mistake in our ISKCON camp. Actually amongst my Godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya.

[suchandra]

 

That would mean that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta did not appoint Prabhupada as a guru. Thus he is a self appointed guru just like the 11 SP "did not appoint". This is the "appointment" philosophy you are peddling... Actually, this is just a disappointment..

 

Wake up, smell the cowdung, come back when you are thinking straight.

Nobody forces you to accept Prabhupada. If you consider Prabhupada of the same caliber as those 11 then please keep on thinking like that. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta wanted a self-effulgent acarya to be his successor, a Vaishnava who would be recognized that he is a spiritual master not because he keeps on telling, "I am a guru," but instead because of his preaching.

If you think that the preaching of Prabhupada is for you meaningless then who has any problem with your understanding? Everybody has a free will, think as you like.

[CCC]

 

The proof that Srila Prabhupada indeed recommended his disciples to get philisophical guidance from Srila Sridhar Maharaj is the fact that the whole GBC went to his matha just months after Prabhupada's tirobhava. Read or listen to those conversations and you will see many leading men at the time like Jayapataka Maharaj, TKG and Bhakti Caru Swami confirming that Prabhupada asked them to come.

 

 

yeah sure, then Sridhar Maharaj say them you are gurus now and He made the same mistake in gaudiya math after the departure of Srila Bahktisidhanta Sarasvati

[Sarva gattah]

 

From reading Narasingha's quotes it is readily apparent that he does not understand the argument the other side is putting forth.

 

No one is saying that maya enters Vaikuntha and snatchs souls at random from Krsna's service. That is truly an absurb idea.

 

It also amounts to a strawman.

 

What they are saying is that a desire to experience existence as the central enjoyer arises from within the jiva and then the jiva is immediately( not one second or even a nano second because still no time influence) self projected out of his svarupa form into a dream existence.

 

Some say that at this "point" (still not influenced by material time) having seemingly given up his svarupa form he existence only as a pinpoint of Brahman until drawn by the need for personal relationships he "falls" further by dreaming up material varigatedness pervertedly based upon on the variegatedness in the spiritual sky. and at this TIME he has enteredthe three modes of material nature and drifts into further entanglement.

 

That is basicly the argument.

 

At anyonje time now for months there has been as many a three or even four threads on the front page of this forum running the same debate and those sharing the position of Narasingha Swami still haven't understoof their opponents point of view.

 

WHAT A COLOSSAL WASTE OF TIME AND ENERGY!!!

 

Now if you really understand the position of the other side you will also see how futile it is tp try and resolve this by a mind that is conditioned by material time. It is not possible.

 

Now I have my own question of doubt that I could put forward to those that think this way but I don't because I know they can't answer it. It will come in time through internal revelation and NO OTHER WAY.

 

Time is better spent helping others in this world by promoting theism instead of being enraptured listening to oneself talk on this issue.

 

Narasingha Maharaja obviously does not understand what the marginal living entity or jiva tatastha actually is and where we (the marginal living entities) perpetually reside. I have met him on a few occasions and like many of us, the correct understanding of jiva tatastha is still a mystery and not understood.

The fact is that many Swami’s and Guru’s and devotees find this difficult to comprehend, which is that the full devotional and bodily potential of the marginal living entities (jiva-tatastha) are already perpetually present in Goloka and that their svarupa body is always their as their original rasa bodily form, regardless if they are dreaming in the mahat-tattva or impersonal Brahmajyoti.

To suggest anything else IS impersonalism because if they say we did not originate from Goloka, then the only other place is an impersonal origin.

Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we originated from some impersonal Brahmajyoti fantasy or myth.

“The fact is the individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY; he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp.

Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently.

Marginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy.

"If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal". (See CC Adi 2.96)

“Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down”. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

“The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

In this way the living entities are called marginal potency because they are naturally surrounded by and serving the Superior energy (Krishna and His Vishnu expansions) in their original perpetual body in Vaikuntha, or can choose to use their free will and become covered by the temporary inferior energy in the forms of decaying ethereal and biological bodies (MATERIAL) within the mahat-tattva or material creation.

The jiva-tatastha or marginal living entity can also further enter the greatest phenomenon and mystery that has perplexed so many pandits, scholars, Sadhus, yogis, Swami’s Guru’s and Vaishavas for thousands of years, and that is a dormant dreamless state of individual consciousness that is part of a quiescent collective called the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

The Impersonal Brahman is neither the superior energy nor the inferior energy. Let me explain. Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is applicable here because Krishna, like the sun, is the source of the sunrays, therefore achintya-Bheda-Abheda is appropriate here because just as the analogy that the sun and the sun are inseparable, the superior energy Krishna and the marginal living entity jiva-tatastha are always together and indivisible like the sun and the sunrays.

The rays of the sun are compared to the living impersonal Brahmajyoti which is the ‘collective’ individual jiva tatasthas (marginal living entities) that are like particles of light that makes up the sunshine and consequently appear in a dormant state of inactive consciousness that exists in-between the SUPERIOR ENERGY (Krishna and His many Vishnu expansions) and the INFERIOR ENERGY (the material lifeless creation and bodily vessels, created by one of the Lords expansions, Maha-Vishnu) ‘This in between state is called the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman.

It is in this way that this Impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti does not and can never represent the full potential or Krishna conscious perpetual bodily origins of tatastha s’akti (the marginal living entity) because ones genuine self is eternally established in the endless ‘presents’ of Goloka and Vaikuntha that is beyond the influence of mundane time and space. The jiva-tatasthas souls that have projected themselves into the Impersonal Brahmajyoti are for that reason in a dreaming static state of delusional individual consciousness unaware of their perpetual Krishna Conscious body in Goloka or Vaikuntha. Therefore it is only the lower non Krishna conscious condition of the jiva tatastha that has merged into a individual collective called the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, like the mahat-tattva, is also a temporary state of existence and imagination for the jiva tatastha.

"Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Oy ve!!!

 

Kulapavana Prabhu. I admire your intestinal fortitude for maintaining the fight against the deceivers.

 

I'm just nauseous from the fumes.

 

Really, it's sickening to see folks dancing on top of the Samadhi of the pure Vaishnava.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

People (perhaps me included) who keep picking and choosing from Srila Prabhupada's words to suit their own misconceptions while conveniently ignoring other instructions are involved in the *ongoing* poisoning of Srila Prabhupada's body.

 

 

Oy ve!!!

 

Kulapavana Prabhu. I admire your intestinal fortitude for maintaining the fight against the deceivers.

 

I'm just nauseous from the fumes.

 

Really, it's sickening to see folks dancing on top of the Samadhi of the pure Vaishnava.

[Kulapavana]

 

WRONG! Kulapavana you should read some history

 

 

so should you. actually Srila Bhaktisiddhanta allowed at least one of his disciples to initiate while SB was still present. Even one of the first Western GM Vaishnavas was initiated by Bhakti Saranga Goswami Maharaj in the presence of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta.

[Kulapavana]

 

yeah sure, then Sridhar Maharaj say them you are gurus now and He made the same mistake in gaudiya math after the departure of Srila Bahktisidhanta Sarasvati

 

you would not know what transpired in GM at that time because you chose to accept the twisted lies and half truths fed to you through the Iskcon propaganda machine. the attitude you people picked up towards SP godbrothers makes Vaishnavas cringe with horror and disgust.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Actually, a real Vaishnava wouldn't treat a *dog* the way some folks treat Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers.

 

Please accept my wretched obeisances, Kulapavana Prabhu.

 

 

you would not know what transpired in GM at that time because you chose to accept the twisted lies and half truths fed to you through the Iskcon propaganda machine. the attitude you people picked up towards SP godbrothers makes Vaishnavas cringe with horror and disgust.

[CCC]

 

you would not know what transpired in GM at that time because you chose to accept the twisted lies and half truths fed to you through the Iskcon propaganda machine. the attitude you people picked up towards SP godbrothers makes Vaishnavas cringe with horror and disgust.

sorry but the history is in my favor, I have accepted the words of Srila Prabhupada as it is

 

"Despite the spiritual master's order to form a governing body and execute the missionary activities of the Gaudiya Matha, the two unauthorized factions began litigation that is still going on after forty years with no decision. Therefore, we do not belong to any faction. But because the two parties, busy dividing the material assets of the Gaudiya Matha institution, stopped the preaching work, we took up the mission of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and Bhaktivinoda Thakura to preach the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu all over the world, under the protection of all the predecessor acaryas, and we find that our humble attempt has been successful". (C.C Adi 12.8)

Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami, at the time of his passing away, ordered all his disciples to work conjointly to preach the mission of Caitanya Mahaprabhu all over the world. Later, however, some self-interested, foolish disciples disobeyed his orders. Each one of them wanted to become head of the mission, and they fought in the courts, neglecting the order of the spiritual master, and the entire mission was defeated. We are not proud of this; however, the truth must be explained. We believed in the words of our spiritual master and started in a humble way --in a helpless way-- but due to the spiritual force of the order of the supreme authority, this movement has become successful." (C.C Adi Lila 7.95-96)

[sevabhakta]

 

I have news for you: Srila Prabhupada is a past acarya now, just like Srila Bhaktisiddhanta or Bhaktivinoda are past acaryas. You cant walk up to him and ask him to clarify the fall from Goloka issue, or the ritvik controversy, can you? If you insist SP is a current acarya, get these answers from him on tape. So who is a current acarya now? Take your pick, as it is all based on faith of the Vaishnavas involved.

 

Another point. Disciples of Prabhupada like yourself now insist that you have to understand SP through them, thus positioning themselves as the authority on proper understanding. And I am not talking about Iskcon gurus - I am talking about you personally. If you think I need to uderstand Prabhupada based on your purports, you claim you are the new acarya and SP is a past acarya. There is NOBODY between a guru and a disciple, so dont place yourself there.

 

Folks like you simply make Srila Prabhupada into a cheap commodity you push on others. This is not the way this system works. NEVER place yourself between the guru and his disciples. That is also Vaisnava standard 101.

 

Srila Prabhupada is not a past acarya to those who he is still the current acarya.

 

Sorry you can't see that.

 

And I am pushing nothing on you. Yet. I am pushing your nonsense philosophy about Vaisnava acaryas AWAY FROM anyone who might be lured by your own attempt to do what you are saying I am doing, which is to place yourself between anyone in the west seeking to understand Gaudiya Vaisnavism and the only person who came to the west who understood it.

 

I do the same, yet I guide them to Srila Prabhupada as the ultimate authority, especially in cases where I am less than knowledgeable about how to proceed.

 

You are claiming the buck stops with your puny interpretive mind.

 

Big difference.

 

Just see you are such a speculator that in your last post you wrote,

 

1. "Disciples of Prabhupada like yourself now insist that you have to understand Srila Prabhupada through them."

 

Can't Prove it. Cause it Never happened. I have repeatedly said that he presents himself clearly, and THAT is all someone needs to understand through ME.

 

2. "If you think I need to understand Srila Prabhupada based on your purports..."

 

If is your favorite word. Why don't you find out the truth instead of speculating. For I never said or implied any of the above.

 

But the truth is, according to your misconceptions, you would do well to consider me as acarya for this one moment, and READ MY PURPORT...

 

Srila Prabhupada is the final authority on Gaudiya Vaisnava Philosophy, it is all in his books.

 

My first and last purport as acarya.

 

Hope it helps.

 

Hare Krsna

[Sarva gattah]

The fact is that many Swami’s and Guru’s and devotees find this difficult to comprehend, which is that the full devotional and bodily potential of the marginal living entities (jiva-tatastha) are already perpetually present in Goloka and that their svarupa body is always their founded endlessly in the never ending 'present' as their original rasa bodily form, regardless if they are dreaming in the mahat-tattva or impersonal Brahmajyoti.

To suggest anything else IS impersonalism because if they say we did not originate from Goloka, then the only other place is an impersonal origin.

Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we originated from some impersonal Brahmajyoti fantasy or myth.

 

[Kulapavana]

 

Actually, a real Vaishnava wouldn't treat a *dog* the way some folks treat Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers.

 

Please accept my wretched obeisances, Kulapavana Prabhu.

 

Please... you break my heart. We are all so unworthy of respect, yet we should practice respecting all others.

 

There is a generation of Vaishnavas which is lost to proper understanding of our siddhanta, as their hearts have turned to stone due to many offences at the feet of exalted Vaishnavas. They parrot only the bitter words their guru spoke about his godbrothers, and they shun the far more numerous sweet words of praise Srila Prabhupada also had for his godbrothers. Like flies, they only seek out one type of food...

 

My work is to make sure these flies do not polute the new people who are aghast at the level of acrimony, envy, and ill will between the Vaishnavas. People dont respect us, because we show so much disrespect to ourselves. How will Mahaprabhu's movement spread in such an atmosphere? It will not - and it is quite obvious when we look at our temples - they are empty. In some Iskcon temples there are more Deities than devotees!

 

Such a pity...

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

sorry but the history is in my favor, I have accepted the words of Srila Prabhupada as it is

 

As it is???? Or as they were mistranscribed (or is that only a claim of yours when you don't like the transcription), misheard, misrepresented? Do you trust your faulty senses so much?

 

You don't *know* what the words of Srila Prabhupada were. Even the words in his books are not *directly* his!!

 

Bull-crap!!!!!

 

As with everything, one must capture the *spirit* of Srila Prabhupada if one wishes to faithfully follow him.

 

Who has captured Srila Prabhupada's spirit? His closest associates! Do you know who those associates are?

[Kulapavana]

 

I am pushing your nonsense philosophy about Vaisnava acaryas AWAY FROM anyone who might be lured by your own attempt to do what you are saying I am doing, which is to place yourself between anyone in the west seeking to understand Gaudiya Vaisnavism and the only person who came to the west who understood it.

 

I actually tell these people: Find out what are the qualification of a real guru and seek out such a person by examining him directly, no middle-men involved. Blind faith is dangerous. Spend some time with such a guru, observe his words and actions while serving him. Then - and only if you are absolutely sure this person is qualified - take diksa from such a guru and treasure the Gayatri mantra passed on in our sampradaya because this mantra is Krsna. One day you will see that for a fact.

 

I also tell them: Watch out for the fanatics and the con-men. These are the folks who destroyed Srila Prabhupada's movement. Think for yourself and trust your heart.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Srila Prabhupada is the final authority on Gaudiya Vaisnava Philosophy, it is all in his books.

 

Srila Prabhupada, eh? And for Whom is Srila Prabhupada a "transparent via medium"?

 

If Mahaprabhu was standing before you, would you say, "Sorry, Srila Prabhupada is the final..."?

[Beggar]

 

To suggest anything else IS impersonalism because if they say we did not originate from Goloka, then the only other place is an impersonal origin.

Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we originated from some impersonal Brahmajyoti fantasy or myth.

 

You've got it quite wrong, my friend. No one is saying that the brahmajyoti is the place of origin for the baddha jivas. The brahmajyoti emantates from the body of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and His innumerable Visnu tattva expansions. Since Bhagavan's body is not different from Himself it is also true to say that the baddha jivas expand from Bhagavan Himself. The point is that the conditioned souls or baddha jivas were never actually in the Spiritual Planets situated in their sthayi bhava rasa with the Lord. Consequently to condem the Gaudiya Siddhanta as given by the predesessor acaryas as impersonal is being done by first creating a "straw man" rhetorical argument, that is to make the false allegation that anyone believes that the marginal jiva souls are not expanding or emanating from Sri Bhagavan, Himself. But we must also note that although from some theorectical perspective the souls who eternally serve the Lord in the Vaikuntha may have the potential to fall down, yet this fall down never occurs because Maha Maya can never enter the region of cinmaya dham. But if we insist that there is absolutely no difference from the eternal servitors of the Lord, nitya siddhas and the nitya baddhas then our theology becomes very much akin to mayavada.