Fall theory is worse than Mayavada says Narasingha Maharaja

[Guruvani]

I already posted a quote from Lord Chaitanya who says that the original svarupa or original form of the jiva is as a spirit spark 1/10,000th the size the tip of a hair.

 

So, so many people just want to dismiss the actual teachings of the supreme master and believe in some concoction of Drutakarma das and his flock.

 

If Mahaprabhu says the original form of the soul is as a spiritual spark then why are people saying that the original form is a spiritual body in Goloka?

[Beggar]

 

Of course, the main problem with the no-fall theory is

that it is covert Mayavada due to it's contention that

we originated in the brahmajyoti. This theory then

logically concludes that the jivatma comes from an

impersonal origin, when that is clearly against what

Srila Prabhupada said: "Because he falls down from

brahma-sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but

he does not remember that before that even he was with

Krsna".

 

 

What you call the no-fall theory is certainly the siddhanta of both Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur as shown in previous posts. Krsna says:

 

 

<center>The Yoga of the Supreme Person</center>

TEXT 27

 

 

brahmano hi pratisthaham

amrtasyavyayasya ca

sasvatasya ca dharmasya

sukhasyaikantikasya ca

 

 

SYNONYMS

 

brahmanah--of the impersonal brahmajyoti; hi--certainly; pratistha--the rest; aham--I am; amrtasya--of the immortal; avyayasya--of the imperishable; ca--also; sasvatasya--of the eternal; ca--and; dharmasya--of the constitutional position; sukhasya--happiness; aikantikasya--ultimate; ca--also.

 

TRANSLATION

 

And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness, and which is immortal, imperishable and eternal.

 

If Krsna is the basis of brahman or "the impersonal brahmajyoti" then the tatastha origin of the jivas is only apparently impersonal. It just involves adjusting ones angle of vision. Advanced Gaudiya Vaisnavas who are fixed in their eternal relationship with Krsna such as Prabhupada, his guru and param gurus have realization that is experiential. The slokas and commentaries come alive in their hearts. They see Krsna "face to face". There is nothing more personal or less personal when it comes to those great saints who have come down from Goloka to perform the service (Radharani's service) of engaging the conditioned souls in devotional service.

 

 

[Guruvani]

According to the writtings of Srila Prabhupada, the brahmajyoti is not impersonal because the brahmajyoti is KRISHNA.

Krishna himself says that he is the brahmajyoti, so the claim the origin in the brahmajyoti is impersonal is false.

Krishna IS the brahmajyoti, at least according to Lord Krishna.

 

Krishna Book, ch. 89:

 

Lord Krsna's and Arjuna's reaching the brahmajyoti region is described in Harivamsa. In that portion of the Vedic literature, Krsna informed Arjuna, "My dear Arjuna, the glaring effulgence, the transcendental light which you are seeing, is My bodily rays. O chief of the descendants of Bharata, this brahmajyoti is Myself."

[Beggar]

Mahak you are confusing lila with karma. The divine lila of the Absolute is non-dual. Everything within the lila is taking place for the pleasure of Krsna and this is all arrainged by the internal energy or Yoga Maya. What goes on in the realm of the genuine conditioned souls is governed by Durga devi or Maha Maya. Akrura was and is an eternal associate of Krsna and he is behaving like an actor in a play. Akrura is not to be considered subject to the three-fold miseries like we are. Then again, he wasn't exactly the favorite of the Gopis.

[cbrahma]

What I don't get, is if one can fall down from Goloka Vrndavana then the same argument against practicing impersonal jnani yoga can be leveled against bhakti yoga. - that is one can fall down. (regardless of why).

On the other, there is something really arbitrary about how some jivas just happen to be eternally situated with Krsna and others are not.

[Beggar]

 

What I don't get, is if one can fall down from Goloka Vrndavana then the same argument against practicing impersonal jnani yoga can be leveled against bhakti yoga. - that is one can fall down. (regardless of why).

On the other, there is something really arbitrary about how some jivas just happen to be eternally situated with Krsna and others are not.

<center>Beauty is the Autocrat,

Sweetness is the Autocrat,

Love is the Autocrat

 

</center> <center>by Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja

 

</center> Everything is to be enjoyed by the Lord. If we can understand this principle of life then it is our duty to taste only what He has already enjoyed. We are to approach divinity, reality, in this spirit of dedication. If we can practice this habit we can be free from the whole of the illusory potency. All our duties should be done in a spirit subservient toward the Centre according to His direction or at even a higher level of understanding according to His own whims. The autocrat has chalked out a path and I am exclusively following that path. If we do not follow or if we stand still, that is an offence. And if I go in another direction, that is also an offence. We must follow in the footsteps of that Autocrat. The principal way of upper life is to follow in the footsteps of the Autocrat in a serving mood. This is the real path. All our illusions will be conquered if we can only try to accept this principle of life. If we do not try for this, it is an offence even to our own selves. And if we do otherwise, that is also an offence. This is law above all law. And for our own best interests, we must mark this.

Following His footsteps faithfully, as no other law is possible here, because He is actually the Autocrat. We shall not be the losers because He is a sweet and loving Autocrat. He is the Autocrat but He is sweet. And you will also get sweetness, fulfilment and love by following in the footsteps of that Autocrat. Beauty is the Autocrat; Sweetness is the Autocrat; Love is the Autocrat – and that is beyond all law. We are required by that dynamic character to follow in those footsteps everywhere to the nearest millimetre.

This is the summary of the all-serving principle coming from the lotus mouth of Sri Uddhava, considered the greatest devotee according to the consideration of Sri Krsna Himself. Of course, Uddhava admires the gopis’ love for the Lord, but more risk is there in that kind of Divine Love. Their opposition to the sweetness also becomes service in such positions where the servants are crossing the realm of their master. Service, the all-serving principle, has got such a position! Service reaches such a stage of nearness that even the Autocrat comes down to His devotees. Such risky service is possible.

 

ajnayaivam gunan dosan, mayadistan api svakan

dharman santyajya yah sarvan, mam bhajeta sa ca sattamah

 

(Srimad Bhagavatam, 11.11.32)“In society, one must obey the law. But there is also the possibility of crossing the law to show faithfulness to the king. If one risks his life and reputation in crossing the general law, and thereby enters into the royal chambers to fight with an assassin, then he will be considered the best and most loyal servitor. Similarly, the Lord is saying, I have already ordered in the scriptures, “Do this and you shall be promoted. If, by crossing My previous orders on a particular level, one follows My footsteps, then he is sure to be promoted.”

 

We shall then find no charm for the temptations that are around us. Our intuition – our far-sightedness – will say to us, “do not follow these travelling phenomenal proposals. They are not reliable, but treacherous. They are like black market dealings with some self-interest for profit and gain, trying to get more than the real market price for a commodity. These proposals will be detrimental for your progressive march towards Divinity. Do not allow yourself to be captivated by these external charms – they are treacherous exhibitions. Only take the prasadam which is enjoyed by the Lord.” Everything should be done with this idea in mind, and this will fully relieve us. Whatever you do, whether in dress or in food, you are to act according to what is sanctioned by Him – following in His footsteps. We shall always perform everything in that consciousness – in God consciousness or Krsna consciousness. God is Beauty and He is the Autocrat. Whatever our engagement, we shall perform with the help of Krsna consciousness in our heart and divine help will come to us beyond our wildest expectations. Doing nothing or acting without the proper attitude, the proper consciousness, is considered detrimental.

Whatever you do, you should do in the proper consciousness at every step. You should do everything in a legal way in the highest sense of the term. “Legal” which in this instance means He who propounds the law. We shall do according to His will, the will of the autocrat, Sri Krsna. This is the sum and substance. We are to go on with Krsna Consciousness following at every step in this way.

We are to go on eating, sleeping and doing all our duties, but always in the association of Krsna. Whatever we do must be done in Krsna consciousness, otherwise all activities are futile.

[Guruvani]

The sleepervadi school of deprecating the brahmajyoti is very offensive.

The brahmajyoti is non-different from the form of Lord Krishna.

If you don't love Krishna's effulgence then you don't love Krishna because you cannot separate the two.

Who cannot love the glow of Krishna?

Only a demon cannot love the effulgence of Krishna - it is produced of nectar.

 

Lord Krishna:

 

this brahmajyoti is Myself

 

If our origin is the brahmajyoti, then our origin is Krishna.

[theist]

 

What I don't get, is if one can fall down from Goloka Vrndavana then the same argument against practicing impersonal jnani yoga can be leveled against bhakti yoga. - that is one can fall down. (regardless of why).

On the other, there is something really arbitrary about how some jivas just happen to be eternally situated with Krsna and others are not.

 

The fall down of the impersonalists from the brahmajyoti is actually a good thing. It allows an oppurtunity for further development into personalism.

 

Yes it is the arbitrary nature of some jivas starting out as nitya siddha and others as nitya baddha that disturbs me and I don't accept it.

 

On the other hand the idea of souls being placed into certain rasa's from the beginning also raises questions like, why doesn't the rasa unfold according to the desire of the individual, from within the individual. I think it should.

 

So there are questions for both camps that I never hear addressed and so I just don't try to formulate an answer to the question. I may lean more one way than the other but so what? My leaning has no value. I do think debating the topic ad nauseum is absurd.

[CCC]

 

What I don't get, is if one can fall down from Goloka Vrndavana then the same argument against practicing impersonal jnani yoga can be leveled against bhakti yoga. - that is one can fall down. (regardless of why).

On the other, there is something really arbitrary about how some jivas just happen to be eternally situated with Krsna and others are not.

I tried to send this post below three times by private but it seems that didn't work, maybe Krsna wants that all people read it. when I read your post I inmediatley remembered this letter below, please I don't want to open a new discussion with this letter, but I consider it very interesting about the soul's origin.

 

4) Could Chandravali Decide to Leave Goloka?

BY: PUNDARIKAKSA DASI

 

[PADA: First of all, Srila Prabhupada did NOT want his followers and his

ISKCON society to begin a controversy over the "fall of the soul from

Vaikuntha" issue:

 

"Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use

of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of

this conditional existence--as much as a patient should take care for

treating his disease more--and less waste his time in finding out the cause

of his disease." SP Letter to Upendra, 10-27-69

 

First of all notice the fact that we should NOT be "arguing" about this

point. Period. Next, there is nothing to argue about since the "soul's

origin" (part of jiva tattva) is made very clear by Srila Prabhupada, "we

were all originally in Krishna's lila or sport,jivera swarupa haya,

nitya Krishna dasa,the original constitutional position of the jiva is

to be Krishna's eternal servant." Very clear, we originated in Krishna's

presence and this is why Srila Prabhupada also wrote to Revatinanadana that

"we have all seen Krishna face to face." Srila Prabhupada repeats this

point over and over, "we became envious of Krishna" etc. so it should not

be argued? We should accept the words of the guru?

 

So it is a little astonishing that the bogus GBC's "authorities" like

Sridhara/ Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura govinda/ BV and BP Puri maharajas et

al. started a big imbroglio complaining about Srila Prabhupada's idea that

we "fall from Vaikuntha (the spiritual world)" just after 1977. Srila

Prabhupada says, do not waste your time arguing about this issue, and yet

that is all they do all the time. Essentially they are attacking Srila

Prabhupada's view that ALL souls are "originally with Krishna." From PADA's

perspective this imbroglio was created intentionally by these deviants so

that they could divert from the real issue, that Srila Prabhupada's society

had been hijacked by deviants, and these "swami advisors" were sneaking

their way into authority posts in ISKCON by "working with" the deviants as

their "shiksha and rasika advisors."

 

And all of this seems oddly connected to Narayana Maharaja's saying that

the reason many gurukuli children were molested is "they had bad karma."

The children have the bad karma of coming in contact with Narayana

Maharaja's molester cult, since he has been the main scholar backing the

pedophile worship cult. This begs the question, why did Narayana Maharaja

say that those of us who disagreed with his pedophile worship regime are

"poison"? Why does he not try to change people's "bad" karma? Again, this

effort tries to blame some "random cause" -- when we all know that Narayana

Maharaja was helping cause the molesting by backing their regime.

 

In any case, there is no intelligent reason that Krishna does anything, it

is all random fall down, random karma and so on. The "random appearance in

the material world" is what we are taught in Episcopal Christianity as

well, i.e. most souls are ALWAYS with God, while a few others (ok us

unfortunate knuckleheads) are randomly put here in this world -- for no

apparent reason. Of course as soon as we try to fix people's "random bad

karma" such as child molesting, then we are poison? And in short "Krishna

the gambler" gave the residents of the spiritual world four aces, but you

unlucky suckers were given a mixed flush, so you are destined to fail and

lose from square one because -- God is not fair. Then again this is like

the theory of "the chosen people," some are randomly selected and some are

not etc.

 

Hence the basic problem with these thinkers is, they blame God for all of

the suffering of the material world. This is why some Christians get angry,

"Why has God put me here"? They fail to recongize that they desired

independence. So these "Krishna" deviant's ideas are akin to the

Christian's jiva tattva. Their idea is: God has sent you to sit in the

corner and wear a dunce hat, but you did nothing wrong? So they are taking

away OUR original choice: to serve God or Maya. They say: you had no

choice, you were never in Vaikuntha to "decide" whether to stay there or

not. Krishna made the choice for you, and since Krishna is not too balanced

or just, He made the wrong choice for you. Too bad!

 

Yet the Vedas say the opposite, that the basic propensity of the souls is

to have DESIRES, and the fallen souls DESIRED to turn away from Krishna

(the two birds analogy), but if we were never with Him, then how did we

turn away? Evidently, the Sridhara/ Narayana/ Gaura Govinda/ Tripurari

sabha like this idea because it means: they are not responsible for their

being here. All because Krishna is a rambling, gambling dice roller: you

either get a lucky roll or you don't. God has no judgement / justice. And

in sum God is randomly nasty to some of us, and randomly He rewards others,

willy nilly. "God is a sort of rambling, gambling man," perhaps Sridhara

Maharaja listens to too much country Western music?

 

So this is one reason PADA has accepted Srila Prabhupada's idea, it is

superior to the Christian's "random placement of the soul" idea. Srila

Prabhupada says that the thinkers who say that God acts randomly -- have no

brains to understand what is the actual plan of God. In sum they say God

has no organized process of placing the renegades here and keeping the

surrendered there? It all is going on in some disorganized, disjointed,

random process. The police might arrest you and put you in jail, or they

might take you to the governor's ball as their main guest, you just get

punished or rewarded for no reason. In short, Krishna has no rules or

guidelines, He may punish or reward for no reason. Hence God operates under

the same guidelines as "The madness of King George."

 

So this is the first problem with their theory, they are insulting God as a

random / unjust actor who has no intelligent capability to discriminate

that some souls are renegades who DESERVE to come down here, while other

souls are surrendered and they DESERVE to stay up there with Him. They have

no actual criteria for staying there or falling here? The Sridhara/

Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura Govinda/ BV and BP Puri maharajas scheme simply

does not explain: how do some souls end up here and some stay up there with

God -- in an intelligent / justice / rules system? Worse, they BLAME GOD

for their own failure to stay up there! So God acts randomly without

intelligence.

 

No, there is a very controlled process. ALL OF the souls are WITH KRISHNA,

and are given equal chance to stay with God. Then, some CHOOSE to leave. It

is not some random function. The Sridhara/ Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura

govinda/ BV and BP Puri maharaja team did not seem to care one iota for the

problems of ISKCON. Rather they began a huge debate over the "real issue,"

the fall of the soul -- and not the victimization of ISKCON and worse --

they harassed those of us trying to address the victimization. Srila

Prabhupada says that people will leave ("bloop") ISKCON, jst like we left

Vaikuntha in the first place. There is a choice involved.

 

So they criminally diverted attention from the real problems. And they

still are doing that. In sum they have failed to come to grips with their

complicity in supporting deviants as messiahs. Worse, they forwarded yet

another bogus theory, that the "pure devotee residents of Vaikuntha" -- are

in fact quite often deviants, criminals, womanizing drunkards,

orchestrators of murder, and that is the fate of many of their "Vaikuntha

resident pure gurus." This is the next wave of insane nonsense they

started, that their "pure devotee residents of Vaikuntha" -- are deviants.

Yet the "soul falling issue" was the exact issue Srila Prabhupada told them

to avoid and -- not -- to bother discussing?

 

Then, as we all know, the Sridhara/ Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura Govinda/ BV

and BP Puri maharajas project began to support the bogus GBC's "diksha

gurus, shaksat hari tvena, Vishnupada, Radharani's servants, pure devotees,

rati keli siddhas and acharyas" (aka "eternal residents of Vaikuntha"). And

as we all know their -- "pure devotee's never fall program" -- immediately

produced -- "falling down from Vaikuntha" -- left, right and center,

including that their "pure devotee Vaikuntha Vishnupadas" (!) are often

having illicit sex with disciples and even children. Yet despite constant

ongoing scandals, the above "scholars" acted as apologists, cheerleaders

and position paper writers for the theory that -- pure devotees, residents

of Vaikuntha, Vishnu's padas -- are "falling down" and are indeed "engaged

in illicit sex with men, women and children."

 

So God is placing souls here in a chaotic way, and the behavior of His

fully surrendered dedicated pure devotees is another process of madness and

chaos. Indeed Sridhara Maharaja writes that the acharyas (residents of

Vaikuntha) "go mad" after money, women and followers. The residents of

Vaikuntha are mad criminals! Who knew! And so they said, let us keep the

discussion on the abstract "soul origin" topic so we can -- cover up for

our child molesting "mad" messiahs. Of course the GBC/ Sridhara/ Narayana/

Tripurari/ Gaura Govinda maharaja team did offer to us in 1980: "When our

rubber stamped residents of Vaikuntha are taking LSD, having illicit sex

with the wives of their disciples, beating up dissenters, neglecting

children etc., we should 'wait and see' and not do anything about it."

Swell, when the residents of Krishna loka (?) are behaving worse than

donkeys and monkeys, we are told by Sridhara Maharaja "none should

criticize."

 

So not only do they endorse bad behavior found in Krishna's Vaikuntha

parisad devotees, but no one can complain when a deviant juxtaposes illict

behavior into Vaikuntha. Narayana Maharaja even said that those of us who

object (i.e. do not affix deviations like child molesting to his alleged

residents of Vaikuntha) we are -- poison. Yet Narayana Maharaja's boot

lickers like Virabahu are more honest. He says that ninety five percent of

the GBC's guru / sannyasis / residents of Vaikuntha will fail. So now they

are telling us that MOST of the residents, indeed ninety five percent of

the residents of Vaikuntha -- will fail and fall. And thus only five

percent of the living beings in all the creation will remain with Krishna?

Satan wins! So there are many layers upon layers of their deviant ideas,

based on their original misconceptions, that the Vaikuntha living entities

are not ever falling, except ninety five percent of the time -- when they

are falling?

 

Oddly, not too many noticed the utter inconsistent hypocricies here? None

of these "scholars" seemed to notice that they are constantly disproving

their own theory. Their idea that "no one falls" IS FALSE at least by their

own process, because for starters their own rubber stamped "pure residents

of Vaikuntha" are unable to take two steps without falling? Worse, there

was a panic at one time that their "residents of Vaikuntha" might be

spreading the AIDS disease to children, which by the way has never been

clearly settled. In other words their "pure devotees who never fall down"

could not even uphold the higher standards of behavior of a donkey, monkey

or the street trash collector.

 

Srila Prabhupada says that the guru is a resident of Krishna loka and that

means he is pure. Whereas the Sridhara/ Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura Govinda/

BV and BP Puri maharajas project says, their rubber stamped residents of

Krishna Loka gurus are also PURE, yet they admit their gurus act worse than

donkeys. Indeed an actual donkey is more pure than their "residents of

Vaikuntha." And anyone who disagrees with this process is "a bogus ritvik."

At the same time -- their Vaikuntha residents, rasika gopi assistants, and

pure devotee gurus are maybe giving AIDS to children by sexually assaulting

them? In sum, they have no idea what a resident of Vaikuntha is in the

first place, apart from all the other holes in their theories.

 

And then people like Sridhara Maharaja began to act as Vatican apologists

for his failed "residents of Vaikuntha" project by saying that (acharyas)

pure devotees, even Narayana Maharaja's "raskika residents of Goloka," ...

"go mad after money, women and followers" as he says in his book "Sri Guru

And His Grace." Yet Sridhara Maharaja never explains his idea: (a) He says

the residents of Vaikuntha "never fall down," yet (b) He says his gurus,

his pure residents of Vaikuntha, are simultaneously -- mostly mad fools

chasing after material exploitation? Meanwhile Gaura Govinda Maharaja wrote

a paper for the GBC saying that his pure devotee Vishnupada acharyas are

(a) always pure and simultaneously (b) often found to be -- asuras, demons.

The residents of Vaikuntha are -- demons? Notice that they always use

mutually exclusive terms which Srila Prabhupada calls "word jugglery."

 

And then they began to give elaborate rationalizations for how "the pure"

are often "impure," or the pure are becoming impure. They just cannot say,

ooops, Srila Prabhupada is pure, why not worship him? Instead they started

a whole elaborate process of schemes to artificially label deviants as

"residents of Vaikuntha," to justify their falling down from Vaikuntha

friends. So (a) their Vaikuntha guru "never falls," meanwhile (b) the

residents of Vaikuntha are falling, mad fools and -- "demons"? Jayadvaita

has summed their Vaikuntha guru project nicely, the Sridhara/ Narayana/

Tripurari/ Gaura Govinda/ BV and BP Puri rubber stamped guru's / aka

"residents of Vaikuntha" are "engaged in illicit sex with men, women and

children." Did we forget to mention that these folks are FULL time

ASSAULTING the residents of Vaikuntha with such insults!

 

So from the get go, their theory was that "no one falls from Vaikuntha" yet

this has always been falling apart because most of their "pure devotees,"

at least the ones these folks have forwarded -- were (and still are)

falling down constantly. Thus there is a huge contradiction in their

position from square one. That has to be explained from the get go, that

the primary exponents of the "no fall" theory have rubber stamped hundreds

of their own concocted "pure devotees" who fall terribly into worse

behavior than the ordinary man would engage in. In sum they are hypocrites,

or worse. And at the same time -- they are discussing the falling soul

issue so they can cover up for all their guru project's molesting and

murders, general criminal chaos, degrading of ISKCON, and degrading the

status of actual pure devotees, all caused by their alleged "pure residents

of Vaikuntha."

 

So, before we can even discuss what it means to fall from Vaikuntha, we

have to understand that the residents there are not "engaged in illicit sex

with men, women and children," as these deviant's ersatz pure guru

residents of Vaikuntha (?) are doing left, right and center. We could go on

here, but you get the point, their idea (a) that the pure never fail, and

(b) the pure fails ninety five percent of the time, this is a contradiction

and Srila Prabhupada says contradiction is mateiral.]

 

** Today I read the new article by Eric Johansen where he argues that souls

in this world have fallen down from Vaikuntha and become caught in samsara.

I previously sent the Sun some articles in regard to this topic but in my

mind I decided not to persist in discussing this matter. However after

studying Eric Johansen's article it seems sensible to express a few

thoughts which I have had.

"OK", I will say. "OK, I was wrong and you are right". OK, now that I have

adopted your point of view can you please address some serious concerns I

have in regard to this.

 

Mahesh Raja presented the quote below by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.

760805BG.PAR Lectures:

Translator: "The question is: did we fall in this material world to find

some highest pleasure? His question is: did we fall in the material world

to experience something which is higher?

Prabhupada: I do not follow.

Yogesvara: I think his question is the husband will leave the wife because

he is dissatisfied. But if our love for Krsna originally is perfect why

should we have left?

Prabhupada: YOU HAVE LEFT... JUST LIKE SOMEBODY IS DAILY EATING PURIS AND

HALAVA, AND HE WANTS TO EAT PUFFED RICE. SO THAT TENDENCY IS THERE. THAT IS

ALSO A SIDE OF ENJOYMENT. "I am eating daily this, let me eat this." What

is the difficulty? That tendency is there. That is also enjoyment. After

all, we are hankering after enjoyment, anandamayo 'bhyasat. So different

taste we desire, that "Let me taste this, let me taste that, let me taste

that." So the real basic principle is enjoyment, sense enjoyment. That's

all."

 

[PADA: And Jaya and Vijaya also fell down from Vaikuntha. The whole idea of

the soul leaving by his own volition actually paralells the other Christian

idea that Adam and Even were "with God," but they wanted to experience "the

forbidden fruit." The main point is that the infinitesimal jiva souls were

-- originally -- with God. Next, there is the Christian example of Satan.

Once again, he too was with God, indeed he was a highly placed Angel no

less. And yet "he became envious." So this is another paralell. The main

idea of Srila Prabhupada, and even the Christian idea to some extent -- is

that we "wanted to enjoy the forbidden fruit," or "we became envious." That

means, we were with God at the beginning. Otherwise, how could we want to

"enjoy separate from Him," or "become envious of Him," if we were never

with Him? Therefore, the main point is that we "originated" with God, or as

Srila Prabhupada says "we were all originally Krishna conscious living

beings."]

 

** A number of questions arise in my mind after reading this. I hope and

pray that the intelligent brahmana gentlemen following this discussion will

be able to enlighten a less intelligent person such as I, and provide me

with answers to the doubts in my mind.

In this quote above His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada says souls come here

and get into Maya for the purpose of feeling enjoyment. Presumably, if and

when I return to Goloka I will find that the happiness in Goloka I feel is

the same as it was before I left. So my concern is this: is there any

statement in the scriptures saying that devotees who have come back home

after being in Maya are any happier or wiser because of their experience of

Maya?

 

[PADA: Apparently, we do "learn" from the bad experience of being in the

material world:

Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes

perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka,

there’s no possibility of falling back.

Prabhupada: No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after

putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really

intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become

intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order

of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something.

Now, if somebody comes, 'Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and

marry again and become a family man,' I'll never become, because I have got

my bad experience. I'll never become." Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta,

Adi-lila 7.108 (San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

[CCC]

** Presumably, after going back to Godhead we will be of the same

intelligence we had before. Then when another day comes where I feel a

taste for a higher type of enjoyment than what I am getting in Goloka I may

decide to come back to the material world again. Again and again I will

come back here. Is it not so? If the personal quest for enjoyment is the

driving force then surely my feeling of happiness in Goloka will fade once

again. Is it not so? The second question I have is a question I raised

before which nobody has answered: why should anybody make an effort to go

back to Godhead if eternal associates of Krishna feel this world is a more

attractive place to be than Vaikuntha? If the devotees in Goloka feel a

desire to come to the material world so they can experience greater

enjoyment, why should I want to go to Goloka? Perhaps as a matter of duty

and religious zeal we should serve Krishna. But in Goloka the souls serving

Krishna as cowherd boys and girls do not feel a sense of duty towards

Krishna but instead they live a life of fun in a world centered around

Krishna. Souls such as those, it would seem, may sometimes desire to enjoy

separately from Krishna. This is very perplexing.

 

[PADA: Yes, it is perpelexing. The answer is that as a general principle,

the souls in Vaikuntha / Goloka do not fall down to the material world.

Hence we find the Vedas saying that the souls in the spiritual world live

there eternally. So the general principle is that there is not a constant

flow of people coming and going. Indeed, Krishna also says that those who

return BACK to Vaikuntha from planet earth are very rare. So those who fall

are very rare, and those who return are very rare, this is not some

actively revolving door principle. This is why Srila Prabhupada says, if he

can simply take one soul back to Godhead that is his great success, it is

not like many people are coming and going.

 

So we have to see this as a general principle, the souls that are in

Vaikuntha / Goloka generally stay there eternally, and the souls that are

here, stuck in matter, generally stay here. The Vedas use terms such as

"nitya siddha" (eternally perfect) and nitya baddha (eternally bound). So

once in a great while someone falls from Goloka to here, and once in a

great while someone returns from here to Goloka. And those who might go

back to Goloka and then return here are rarer still since, there is yet

another general principle: "once burned by fire one does not put his hand

back into the fire." Therefore for the most part, those who return to

Goloka stay there and they do not come back to the material world. We

cannot focus on the rare exceptions as the rule.

 

At the same time, even if we return "there is chance" to fall again because

otherwise we would not have complete freedom? Again the emphasis is that we

are "always" in Goloka as long as we desire to be there, it is never a

forced post. Thus generally, the souls that come here and then "return

home" stay there perpetually having been "burned by the fire." For the most

part the souls that leave Goloka and come here, and then return to Goloka,

they do not come back here. There may be a very rare exceptional case and

is not to be considered as the main example. Then again Srila Prabhupada

did not even want us to bother our weary heads with these issues because

for the most part it is only relevant that we have to get out of here, that

is the main priority right now.

 

So when Srila Prabhupada says, "No one falls from Vaikuntha," he is stating

the main fact -- that the souls in the spiritual world (for the most part)

stay there. It is not like they are coming and going like tourists going to

Las Vegas. Generally it is an eternally fixed post, and to contemplate

other alternatives is not very useful, and is in any case the rare

exception. Of course, for the Sridhara/ Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura Govinda/

BR and BV Puri sector MOST of their alleged "pure devotees" are "falling

down" by the zillions, every two seconds one of their pure residents of

Vaikuntha splats on the pavement like incessant rain from a demoniac cloud.

Their theory is that (a) the neophyte devotee becomes pure and is a

resident of Vaikuntha, but (b) only for a few years, then he returns here.

Their whole idea is that people are coming and going to Vaikuntha like the

bus station at the Las Vegas Sands Hotel. There is no "eternity" at all for

these folks, ETERNAL purity is all in flux over the span of a few years.]

 

** My third question, an unanswered question I asked before in a previous

article, is this. Buddha said the gods in heaven do not live there forever

since all concrete realms are impermanent. If it is true that "Formerly we

were with Krsna in His lila" then it must also be true that the world of

Krishna is an impermanent residence for souls, since people in Vaikuntha

can (and do) fall into a state of illusion from time to time. This is the

logical conclusion I arrive at. Can someone please explain to me how my

thinking is wrong?

 

[PADA: Just because the eternal abode has been abandoned by some of us, and

not all at once but gradually over time -- over hundreds of trillions of

years -- this does not make a case that the spiritual world is in a state

of massive flux like the material world? We were in Krishna's lila or

sport, Jaya and Vijaya were in the spiritual world and they fell, and Satan

was an angel, and Adam and Eve were in the garden, these are examples to

illustate that the souls had a desire to be "independent masters." This

does not indicate that the spiritual world is itself in great flux because

some few souls leave and some come back over massive periods of time. And

since the largest majority of the souls stay in the spiritual world, that

means it is only a minority that are in bondage.

 

At the same time, lest we forget, Srila Prabhupada sort of says this is all

far too much for our teeny brains to comprehend, yes it is inconceivable

that we loved God and then wanted to be independent of God, but it can and

does happen because of "misuse of minute independence." Yet whatever

movement of a few souls is occuring at any given time, this has no real

impact on the status of the residents of Vaikuntha. Just as when a person

is either going to jail or is being released from jail in San Francisco,

almost nobody knows or cares, it has no impact on the city itself, and it

has about zero impact on the entire universe. For that matter, the

residents of the Nob Hill Estates have no idea what is the problem in the

Mission District of San Francisco, they are in separate worlds already even

when they are right next to one another. In short, a few souls at a time

leaving and coming back to planets with hundreds of trillions of entities

is not vey significant.]

 

** I have a fourth question, and a fifth. But before asking my fourth

question I would like to present two verses from the Gita.

 

In the Bhagavad gita (8.21) Krishna says:

avyakto 'ksara ity uktas tam ahuh paramam gatim

yam prapya na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama

"That supreme abode is called unmanifested and infallible, and it is the

supreme destination. When one goes there, he never comes back. That is My

supreme abode.

 

And in verse 6.15 Krishna says:

na tad bhasayate suryo na sasanko na pavakah

yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama

 

"That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by

electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world."

 

Some devotees interpret these verses to mean that a liberated person who

has gone back to Godhead from the material world will never fall again

whereas souls who have never fallen may still fall at some time in the

future if they decide to seek a higher type of satisfaction which they want

to experience in the material world. Yet if some cowherd boy in Goloka

makes a conscious choice to fall into Maya so he can experience enjoyment

separate from Krishna then why doesn't Krishna take care of his silly

friend and save him from all the trouble that he will go through? Why

doesn't Krishna protect the boy from the reactions that will come about

because of his desire to enter Maya and get born in physical bodies that

get old and rotten? Krishna says in the gita (9.31): "Declare it boldly

that My devotee will never perish." Why does Krishna say that if he doesn't

save his cowherd friends from becoming grubs? This is my fourth question.

 

[PADA: Once again, the main emphasis is that "no one falls" from the

spiritual world. And Srila Prabhupada says that Krishna does try to tell us

not to leave. Yet the main point that should be emphasized is, "Once

returning home, no one will come back here," that is the point that was

emphasized constantly by Srila Prabhupada. That means any other case is the

extremely rare case, so it is not emphasized. Then again, Krishna comes

here personally or sends his agents to "tell His servants to return home,"

and what happens then? Krishna is attacked by so many demons, and / or His

pure devotees are crucified or poisoned. If Krishna cannot convince them,

what should He do? Force people to march and chant Zeig Heil? No, He wants

you -- to want -- to serve Him. He could force you, but that is not His

perogative.

 

In short there are not a lot of people HERE who want to -- listen -- to

Krishna's message, they wanted to leave Krishna and they ended up in this

world. Why doesn't Krishna ask us to return after we get here? He does.

There are just not a lot of listeners. And then again we have those who

poison their guru, sit in his seat, and exploit Krishna's message. So

Krishna sends His pure devotees, and then the pure devotes are attacked, so

the actual listeners are few in number. Of course in other ages like Satya

Yuga, most of the people return home, that is another thing. Yet to be born

in Satya Yuga one has to be purified to a great extent already. So there is

the process of going where you deserve, and we deserved to be in Kali Yuga

where not many will be liberated. And in this age many will sit around

having tea and crumpets with the poisoners of the pure devotee.]

 

** There are billions of living souls in this world, all of which have

fallen into illusion from Vaikuntha (we believe). Why does Krishna allow so

many of his eternal friends from Goloka who he used to play with in the

pasture grounds fall into a state of seemingly perpetual illusion.

(Considering this issue carefully, I am starting to feel I should recant on

my earlier decision to accept that the souls in this world fall down from

Vaikuntha. It is much easier to accommodate the idea that souls who have

fallen from Brahman are filling up this world and that none of the

miserable maggots in the rubbish pile at the local junkyard were formerly

cowherd boys in Goloka).

 

[PADA: OK, you have failed to offer an explanation so far for how we

"desired to leave Krishna"? Before you can dismantle our idea, at least

present your idea? At least the Sridhara/ Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura

Govinda/ et al. have some counter idea, their idea is that the "residents

of Krishna loka" are extreme criminal deviants. Their idea of Vaikuntha

residents is about as pure as a dead beached sea lion, which stinks up the

beach as we experienced. Their idea stinks, but at least they have a

counter idea? You have to at least attempt to present a better explanation,

if there is one?]

 

** Previously I wrote: If each and every fly and germ in the material world

was originally a servant of Krishna in Vaikuntha, if the residents of

Goloka such as Gopis and Gopas can become maggots and spend millions of

lifetimes in samsara, then what about Krishna's statement "Declare it

boldly that My devotee will never perish." (Bhagavad gita 9.31)?

 

[PADA: OK, but when you desire to leave Krishna, you are no longer His

devotee? Thus you have to REVIVE your service to Krishna.]

 

** Mahesh Raja presented an article in which he said that souls in this

world start of as Brahma and fall down from there. But then, as he

mentioned in quotes he gave in regard the fallen jiva, "before that even,

he was with Krishna". That is, before he was a Brahma he was a cowherd (or

a resident of Vaikuntha), and then Krishna let this liberated individual

who was doing service fall into illusion and become a fool, become a

Brahma, and become a maggot. Sorry if my language seems harsh but I want to

emphasize this issue that concerns me deeply. If one of the brahmana

gentlemen presently advising me how to understand Krishna Consciousness

properly would please enlighten me about this matter I would be extremely

grateful.

 

[PADA: Well it is simple, you fall down from serving Krishna because you

wanted to serve yourself. Then you become entangled in this world and go

downwards. Just look at the bogus GBC gurus, they were serving Krishna,

then they decided to serve themselves.]

 

** The next question I have, the fifth question is that I would like to

know why a distinction is made in the scriptures between jiva souls who

arise from the marginal potency and the eternal residents of Vaikuntha who

are said to be expansions of the antaranga shakti? If all of us jivas were

originally part of the Goloka-lila and consequently part of the antaranga

shakti then why is it that in the scriptures such as Brahma Samhita it is

stated that the jiva souls arise from Brahman (not the antaranga shakti)?

 

[PADA: Well this is another interesting point. Some of the souls such as

the gopis are considered as the highest devotees, perhaps that means they

would never fall down. Yet we also find that sometimes conditioned jivas

join up with the liberated gopis in Krishna's lila on this earth, to become

trained up as gopis and go back to that service. So it seems that perhaps

some former gopis are regaining their original post. It would also seem

that some of most advanced devotees, Radha's direct servants for example,

they are more or less part of the internal energy, thus they are not

ordinary jivas who can fail. Yet the main point remains, that there are

conditioned jivas being trained as gopis, so it is possible to go to that

level even after being conditioned. Whether they were originally gopis who

are reviving their post is an interesting question, but it seems possible.

The conclusion is that it seems to be a possibility for any regular jeeva

to fail, just like Satan was formerly supposed to be God's right hand

servant. After leaving, we may end up falling here and then going to

brahman, but that is not our actual source.]

 

** (Various persons have made comments about how the translations of the

writings of previous Acaryas are unreliable translations. But this is a

moot point in regard to the English translation we have of Brahma Samhita

because that book is coming to us in the direct English words penned by

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura.)

 

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura wrote in Sri Brahma Samhita. Text 21:

sa nityo nitya-sambandhah prakrtis ca paraiva sa

 

TRANSLATION: The same jiva is eternal and is for eternity and without a

beginning joined to the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship. He

is transcendental spiritual potency.

 

PURPORT: Just as the sun is eternally associated with his rays so the

transcendental Supreme Lord is eternally joined with the jivas. The jivas

are the infinitesimal particles of His spiritual effulgence and are,

therefore, not perishable like mundane things. Jivas, being particles of

Godhead's effulgent rays, exhibit on a minute scale the qualities of the

Divinity. Hence jivas are identical with the principles of knowledge,

knower, egoism, enjoyed, meditator and doer. Krishna is the all-pervading,

all-extending Supreme Lord; while jivas have a different nature from His,

being His atomic particles.

 

That eternal relationship consists in this that the Supreme Lord is the

eternal master and jivas are His eternal servants. Jivas have also

sufficient eligibility in respect at the mellow quality of the Divinity.

Apareyam itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param. By this verse of the Geeta

it is made known that jivas are His transcendental potency. All the

qualities of the unalloyed soul are above the eightfold qualities such as

egotism, etc., pertaining to His acit potency. Hence the jiva potency,

though very small in magnitude, is still superior to acit potency or Maya.

This potency has another name, viz., tatastha or marginal potency being

located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and mundane

potencies. He is susceptible to the influence of the material energy owing

to his small magnitude. But so long as he remains submissive to Krsna, the

Lord of Maya, he is not liable to the influence of Maya. The worldly

afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered

condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a

time that has no beginning.

 

[PADA: Tatastha simply means the bank of a river, which can move one way or

the other, so the souls can go from Vaikuntha to here, and from here back

to Vaikuntha. The tatastha idea is that we are able to move, that is the

main point here. Marginal and moveable -- means it can remain spiritual, or

slip into matter, it is not necessarily fixed. Yet some Sridhara Maharaja

and GGM folks tried to tell us that we originate in the marginal area. No,

we originate in the spiritual area and because we are marginal we may move

into the material. Brahmajyoti is marginal because it is separating

spiritual and material, and thus we are likened to that state because we

are "in between." So tatastha describes how the river bank can move, it

does not say that is the source of the river?]

 

** Here, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura clearly states in his own words

written in English that the jiva shakti is tatastha shakti. Moreover, we do

know that tatastha shakti is different from the antaranga shakti from which

the parshads (eternal associates) are expanded. So in summary, my fifth

question is that I would like to know why the previous Acaryas make a

distinction between tatastha shakti and antaranga shakti if the jiva shakti

is not truly arising from the "margin" between Prakriti and the antaranga

shakti. Shouldn't it become a point of philosophy we preach, that this jiva

shakti is made up of persons who used to be in the antaranga shakti but who

then became ignorant fools.

 

[PADA: Well ok, if the jiva goes back by his tatastha ability, then he

becomes an associate / parisad. Yet you are confusing different points. The

devotees in Vaikuntha are able to leave, that is the meaning of tatastha,

it does not indicate they started in brahman, it means they have the

ability to move here or there. "To revive your dormant Krishna

consciousness" means that the internal spiritual enegy is still within us,

even in the conditioned jivas, it is just dormant. This is also why the

souls cannot be burned, dried, or killed etc., the internal spiritual

potency is still there, it is merely covered. Srila Prabhupada says when

you wipe the dust from the mirror, then you see yourself. So the soul has

to clean off the material dust and then he will see his spiritual body,

which is already there, it is just covered by the material dust.]

 

** I started this article off by saying that I now accept the notion that

all the jivas in this world have fallen down from Vaikuntha. But having

reconsidered all these points I do wonder if there are serious fundamental

problems that have arisen simultaneously with the notion that eternal

servitors of the Lord can fall into Maya. Might it be possible, I wonder,

that at some time in the future Srila Prabhupada himself will decide to

seek happiness in the material world? I appreciate that many devotees will

think this statement of mine is scandalous. But truly I am just trying to

understand this idea that anyone in Vaikuntha can fall down into illusion.

 

[PADA: Well the first point is that most of your ideas are re-packaged

ideologies from the Gaudiya Matha. They opened a can of worms here on this

issue, but as we already pointed out, there are so many flaws in their

process it is hardly worth considering. Srila Prabhupada has already said:

Once we fall and get to know about the bad experience of the material

world, we are then experienced in putting our hands in the fire, so we are

not inclined to come back HERE to the fire once we go back home. That is

even more the case for people who are acharyas, they come here and they are

harassed if not killed for their preaching effort, they really know the

material world is not heavenly.

 

Thus the acharyas have no inclination to reside in this world whatsoever.

As Srila Prabhupada says, the only reason the acharyas come here is to

preach. It seems to us that you are thinking the positions of the jeevas in

Vaikuntha, or even the acharyas, are changing all the time, but they are

not. Change is rare there, even here on earth we see it is rare for someone

to serve the pure devotee. Srila Prabhupada also says that by dint of the

extreme service performed by the acharyas, they are always protected by the

Lord. So there are special cases where certain devotee will get special

protection and treatment by dint of extreme sacrifices, and the acharyas

are certainly eligible for that. In sum, generally the residents of Krishna

loka are staying there in the first place. Those who come here and become

liberated go back and stay there without even falling again, that is the

general rule.]

 

** I wonder about all this. If anyone can fall from Goloka into Maya then

maybe one day Chandravali and other Gopis will decide to leave aside that

life they are living on the slopes of Govardhana. Maybe they will decide to

seek the greater joys of life that can be found in the material world. Oh,

and if Chandravali decides to leave Goloka, will Krishna let her become a

grub or a tree for millions of lifetimes? I just don't know the answer to

that.

 

[PADA: Well yes, you were told not to dither on this topic by the acharya

himself. The status of great devotees like Chandravali are also not

something we should speculate about. We merely presented a few points to

help you see that it is not that difficult if we follow the process given

by Srila Prabhupada. thanks pd]

[Beggar]

CCC's Grades:

Part 1 F-

Part 2 F-

[cbrahma]

"Of course, everyone has a particular relationship</I> with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But, in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten</I> the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord</I>. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive</I> that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position</I>." -Introduction to Bhagavad-gita As It Is</U>

 

Forgetting one's svarupa - What? from the brahmajyoti? I think not.

[Guruvani]

 

"Of course, everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But, in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position." -Introduction to Bhagavad-gita As It Is

 

Forgetting one's svarupa - What? from the brahmajyoti? I think not.

since when does "relationship" mean spiritual body?

it has already been explained in shastra many times that the relationship is that the soul is a spark of light in the effulgence of Krishna.

The relationsip is servant.

 

That is the relationship.

Krishna is the whole and the jiva soul is the part.

 

Why do people always try to screw some personal form out of the term relationship?

 

I have a relationship with the chair I am setting in.

I set in the chair and the chair holds me up.

That doesn't means the chair has a spiritual form in Goloka that it has forgotten about.

 

Lord Chaitanya said the svarupa of the jiva is a spirit spark 1/10,000th the size the tip of a hair.

That is the definition of svarupa according to Lord Chaitanya.

 

Why do people insist that Mahaprabhu was wrong?

Hatred for the brahmajyoti is hatred of Krishna because Krishna says "this brahmajyoti is myself".

[Vigraha]

 

What you call the no-fall theory is certainly the siddhanta of both Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur as shown in previous posts. Krsna says:

 

 

 

<CENTER>The Yoga of the Supreme Person</CENTER>

 

TEXT 27

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

brahmano hi pratisthaham

 

 

 

amrtasyavyayasya ca

sasvatasya ca dharmasya

sukhasyaikantikasya ca

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SYNONYMS

 

 

 

 

brahmanah--of the impersonal brahmajyoti; hi--certainly; pratistha--the rest; aham--I am; amrtasya--of the immortal; avyayasya--of the imperishable; ca--also; sasvatasya--of the eternal; ca--and; dharmasya--of the constitutional position; sukhasya--happiness; aikantikasya--ultimate; ca--also.

 

TRANSLATION

 

 

 

 

And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness, and which is immortal, imperishable and eternal.

 

 

 

If Krsna is the basis of brahman or "the impersonal brahmajyoti" then the tatastha origin of the jivas is only apparently impersonal. It just involves adjusting ones angle of vision. Advanced Gaudiya Vaisnavas who are fixed in their eternal relationship with Krsna such as Prabhupada, his guru and param gurus have realization that is experiential. The slokas and commentaries come alive in their hearts. They see Krsna "face to face". There is nothing more personal or less personal when it comes to those great saints who have come down from Goloka to perform the service (Radharani's service) of engaging the conditioned souls in devotional service.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are sure you are not an impersonalist Begger? There is no region, place or plane called tatasha, the jiva souls ARE the jiva-tatastha's. Also they are NOT inbetween the material and Vaikuntha realm but rather choose between SERVING the Superior energy (Krishna and His expansions) or being COVERED by and a slave to the inferior energy (maha-tattva)

 

In other words, one can stay in Vaikuntha as their 'svarupa' body or 'dream' of an imaginary self COVERED by the material energies ethereal and biological vessels within the mahat-tattva.

 

Also CCC's Grades: Part 1 F Part 2 F are very true, very well written.

 

It's also very clear that when Svarupa talks of other sects, he means the Gaudiya math who Srila Prabhupada instructed his genuine disciples to avoid completely, ISKCON has nothing to do with the present mundane version of the Gaudiya math :deal: :deal:

 

[Beggar]

 

Are sure you are not an impersonalist Begger?

Are sure you are not a Communist Viggy?

This is the bogus mentality that's been going around ISKCON for almost four decades. If someone is an impersonalist then they would accept the impersonalist interpretation interpretation of brahmano hi pratisthaham, which has Sri Krsna saying, "the impersonal Brahman is my basis". The personalist understands that Krsna is really saying, "I am the basis of impersonal Brahman". Yet at the same time we must understand advaya-jnana-para-tattva:

 

 

vadanti tat tattva-vidas

tattvam yaj jnanam advayam

brahmeti paramatmeti

bhagavan iti sabdyate

 

["Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramatma or Bhagavan." (SB 1.2.11)]

 

In a sense this verse was the very basis of the preaching of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and Srila Prabhupada has quoted it numerous times.

Prabhupada's 1970 pastime with the "fallen" sanyassis which came to head in New Vrndavana is quite mysterious. The end result was Krsna Consciousness spreading all over the Southern USA. At the same time there was created quite a paranoia about impersonalism in ISKCON. The effects of this were widespread and in the early seventies there definitely was a repressive mentality where impersonalists were found lurking everywhere. Individual persons have anarthas and so do groups. The early seventies irrational ISKCON paranoia about impersonalism lives on today in the minds of many ISKCON subgroups, such as PADA, Drutakarma's gang and none other than the deluded Sleeper-Vadi section.

 

 

 

[mahak]

I was using the akrura story as analogy, but I do understand the concept of Krsna illusion as opposed to the forgetfulness of the jiva. These two opposing mayas make things hard to discuss at times, kinda like acintya bheda bheda tattwa.

 

The real point of my last post, which has never been answered by those who claim that srila prabhupada never taught that our original position is with God as his servant, is that what is meant when srila prabhupada often states that "we have somehow or other forgotten". My question, "forgotten" what?

 

I was excited that Kula posted a thread about back to godhead. I writwe here to not pollute that thread with this continual discussion that goes nowhere. Agsain, I ask those who thing we were never in our swarupa siddhi ifn full krsna consciousness, why BACK to godhead? Back means to return, meaning we were once there. All of Srila Prabhuipadas teachings are nullified by those who say we have not forgotten, that we were never with Krsna, that we are dead eternally conditioned stones that have no consciousness, and then, presto, we get a brand new life with God.

 

All theology is based on RETURNING. The prodigal son, the two servants spending three incarnations as demons who fight directly with Krsna as temporary setbacks, after which they again assume their posts as gatekeepers to the Vaikunthas.

 

Srila Prabhupada did not name his publication "attaining Godhead", "Discovering Godhead", or even "The Descending Gift of Godhead". It is Back to Godhead, returning to where we once were, before "somehow or other we have forgotten."

 

I see why there is so much discussion on this subject, because the basic premise is ESSENTIAL to the very foundation of this science. The debate goes nowhere, but the tattwa doesnt change by the opinions of us with our foggy memories.

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[Kulapavana]

 

I see why there is so much discussion on this subject, because the basic premise is ESSENTIAL to the very foundation of this science.

 

Yes, the understanding of this issue is quite pivotal to the proper understanding of spiritual life. In a way we can be greatful to the sleeper-vadis for sparking a debate about one of the very fundamental concepts of Gaudiya Vaishnavism and spirituality in general: Precisely WHERE do we come from?

[mahak]

I guess im a forgettavadi. Somehow or other, I forgot.

 

As far as the early mayavad controversy, it was all political, never philosophical. A power play that actually was never resolved, and ISKCON imploded because of it.

 

Srila Prabhupada did have a dear disciple teach mayavad to see if his students would recogtnize, and they did. But they chose to personalize this and criminally harassed the one following Srila Prabhupadas order. Their actions, the mayavadi-phobes (you guys make up words, heres one for yall), began the factionalization, thus ending the missionary work in favor of power grabs and non-cooperation.

 

Vaisnavas do not fear mayavada. They understand it as jnana, knowledge. The only flaw in mayavada is that it is incomplete, not untrue.

[Shakti-Fan]

Prema Prayojana Prabhu:

Yesterday we began to discuss the conception of jiva-tattva and dharma in an attempt to convey Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's presentation of these topics in his great masterpiece, Jaiva Dharma. For those who were not here, I will quickly review a few points that we touched upon last night. Every field of knowledge has its own terminology that helps us understand the subject precisely. In understanding the soul, it is helpful for us to become acquainted with the terms: dharma, svabhava, vastu, ghatana, vikara and nisarga. The word dharma comes from dhri dhatu-the verbal root, meaning 'to hold'. That which any substance is holding and never lets go of and by which it can be identified is called its dharma, its religion.

Every vastu, or substance, has its dharma, that is, its svabhava, or nature. This svabhava arises automatically from its ghatana, its internal construction. It is not something acquired from anywhere else. It is not something to be practiced or learned. Dharma is the intrinsic nature (svabhava) arising from the ghatana (construction) of any substance (vastu). Next, we discussed how a vastu, when coming in contact with another force, can undergo transformation. The transformation of any substance is called vikara. When vikara takes place, the svadharma (svabhava) of a substance goes into a latent position and is apparently lost; the vastu's subsequent acquired nature is called nisarga.

To illustrate these terms, an example is given. A vastu, in this case water, has a dharma (svabhava), namely liquidity, which arises automatically from its ghatana. When water is subjected to extreme cold, a vikara (transformation) occurs in which its dharma, liquidity, is apparently lost. The transformation in this case is commonly known as freezing, in which the substance exhibits nisarga, an acquired nature, namely hardness or solidity, as opposed to its svabhava or dharma, liquidity. Now let us apply these terms to the subject of the jiva soul.

The jiva is transcendental by constitution; but because he is very tiny, he undergoes vikara (transformation) when he comes in contact with the material energy. His svabhava, his nature, or his dharma-that is, prema-dharma, vaisnava-dharma, bhagavat-dharma, sanatana-dharma, or jaiva-dharma-goes into a latent position and he takes on an acquired nature, called nisarga. It is important to know how that nisarga manifests in our lives. As a result of this nisarga, the jiva begins to engage in karma, or fruitive activity, that is, doing something to get something in return. Otherwise, he engages in jnana (speculative knowledge) in an attempt to become liberated. Or he performs yoga to achieve siddhi, mystic powers to control his environment. Thus, when Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is speaking about jaiva-dharma, or vaisnava-dharma, he is not referring to a sectarian concern. This is not 'our belief,' our 'manifesto,' our 'party line.' No, this is the nature of every jiva.

Then how can we understand all the other religions of the world? Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains that the dharma of the jiva is unconditional loving service to Krsna, the all-attractive Supreme Personality of Godhead. The degree to which the conception of such service to Krsna is present within any other religious conception determines the degree to which that religious conception is valuable. We find that in all the religious conceptions of this whole world, there is some mixture of karma, jnana or yoga. Therefore, by following these paths, one cannot become entirely free from his nisarga, acquired nature.

What is vaisnava-dharma? If you will gather together all the religions of the world, and take out from them karma (the fruitive mentality, to go to paradise), jnana (the desire for salvation, to be liberated), and desires which are mixed with yoga siddhi (mystic powers such as healing and speaking in tongues), you'll be left with Vaisnavism. This is the pure dharma; it is without any contamination coming from nisarga (the acquired nature resulting from contact with the modes of material nature). Therefore, this jaiva-dharma, or the process of prema-bhakti, is the religion of every jiva, every living entity. The conception is completely broad and universal. If you will discuss this with anyone, they can easily see the defects of karma, jnana and yoga. And if they will remove these things from their religion, they will be left with Vaisnavism. So this is very good news for the whole world. We have a lot of work to do to broadcast this idea. We discussed this yesterday and we also explained about Krsna's sakti. He has one sakti, svarupa sakti, and it has three vrttis, three functions or tendencies known as sat-cit-ananda, or sandhini, samvit and hladini.

parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate

svabhaviki jnana-bala-kriya ca

(Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.8)

There are three vrttis in the svarupa sakti. When the svarupa sakti comes out from the mandala of the cit-jagat, it transforms and becomes tatastha-sakti. From this tatastha-sakti, so many jivas have come. This sakti also transforms into the shadow of its original nature-that shadow aspect is called maya-sakti, and the effect of sandhini, samvit and hladini is also present there. We have discussed the three influences of these three vrttis in the three transformations of svarupa-sakti. Everyone remembers clearly? I think so. In case not, we'll mention again in brief. In the spiritual world, sandhini makes forms and shapes, samvit makes knowledge, but in Vrndavana samvit cannot work. It is transformed; because there is so much hladini there, it becomes only sambandha-jnana, knowledge of a special relationship with Krsna. And hladini transforms:

hladinira sara 'prema', prema-sara 'bhava'

bhavera parama-kastha, nama--'maha-bhava'

(CC. Adi 4.68)

This hladini develops into all the different varieties of prema. This is the vilasa of hladini-sakti. This sakti becomes so many varieties of waves of endless affection, its ultimate embodiment being Srimati Radhika Herself. So these are the three functions in the spiritual world.

In the material world, the three functions are present but in a transformed state. They become temporary existence, material knowledge, and happiness and distress, respectively. In the tatastha sakti, sandhini makes the jiva's form, samvit makes brahma-jnana, and hladini makes brahmananda. When the jiva is covered over and is not aware that 'I am the soul,' 'I am atma,' he is only absorbed in maya. In this condition, he has material knowledge and undergoes material happiness and distress. When his consciousness is not entangled in maya, then he realizes himself. What does he realize? Aham brahmasmi, I am spirit.

brahma-bhuta prasannatma na socati na kanksati

samah sarvesu bhutesu mad bhaktim labhate param

(Bhagavad Gita 18.58)

Brahma-bhuta prasannatma: he realizes, 'I am Brahma,' 'I am spirit only' and prasannatma, he becomes happy. How happy? Brahmananda: 'I am liberated'-only this.

Yesterday we also spoke about the vikara of the jiva's svarupa. Because the jiva is very tiny, due to contact with the material energy, vikara takes place. That means transformation takes place in the jiva's svarupa. There is atma guna vikara, that is, the qualities of the soul also become transformed. The jiva gives up his pure nature and becomes entangled with maya.

Today I want to say something about this tatastha sakti. When svarupa-sakti comes out from the mandala of cit-jagat, then it is called tatastha-sakti. This tatastha-sakti is also called aisi-sakti. Aisi-sakti means sakti of Isvara. The word 'aisi' comes from the word Isa. All the saktis are from Isvara, but this particular one is really special in the sense thatt it has some unique characteristics. Tatastha sakti has one karya, duty, and it has kriya, activity, the activity by which it performs its duty. So what is the duty of tatastha-sakti, aisi-sakti? What does she have to do?

(Devotee: She has to serve Krsna.)

All saktis have to serve Krsna. Now the karya, the duty of aisi-sakti, tatastha-sakti, is to assemble to apurna jagat. There is purna-jagat, the spiritual world, and apurna-jagat, the material world. That is the complete universe, and this in the incomplete universe, apurna-jagat. Aisi-sakti has to assemble the apurna jagat. That is her karya, her duty. How does she do it? In Bhagavad-Gita (7.4) Krsna says:

bhumira apo'nalo vayuh kham mano buddhi eva ca

ahankara iti yam me bhinna prakrtir astadha

There are eight types of bhinna prakrti, separated energy-earth, water, fire, air, space, mind, intelligence and false ego. But:

apareyam itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param

jiva-bhutam maha-baho yayedam dharyate jagat

(Bhagavad-Gita 7.5)

Apart from these separated energies, I have another energy, 'prakrtim viddhi me param.' You should know this is para, this is a transcendental energy, it is not material, it is not a part of maya. Jiva bhutam maha baho: from this energy come all the jivas. What are the jivas doing? Yayedam dharyate jagat dharyate: dharma, dhr-dhatu-they are holding or sustaining this jagat, this material universe. Unless the jivas enter into the material energy, the universe will not go on. Take your body as a microcosm of the universe-in this body there are so many elements and so many living entities, all of whom are working together and living in harmony as long as the soul is present. The moment the soul goes, suddenly every cell in the body doesn't know how to cooperate with the others and it doesn't work anymore. Everything breaks down and becomes rotten and begins to emanate a foul odor. So the presence of the jiva causes everything in the body to go on in harmony. Due to the presence of the jiva in the sun, the sun god is is able to function. The moon, the wind, the rain and everything work in this way. The jivas have entered into the material energy along with the Supersoul, who facilitates their desires. Therefore, because of the presence of the jivas in all the departments of the material world, this jagat is going on. All the elements are there, but who assembled them? It was accomplished by one jiva in the form of Lord Brahma. Brahma took the material elements and assembled them, and the jivas entered into what he assembled; then their bodies came alive and they began to move. In this way, the whole universe is going on.

Krsna said: Jiva-bhutam maha-baho yayedam dharyate jagat. It was the duty of the tatastha-sakti to assemble the apurna-jagat. How did the aisi-sakti assemble the apurna-jagat? By manifesting unlimited, tiny jivas. Those jivas are very astonishing, having a quality that is not present in any other spiritual manifestation. Though they are para-sakti, of a transcendental nature and not material, they have a dual passport. It means that this particular manifestation, which has come from tatastha-sakti, can come under the control of cit-dharma, the spiritual nature. Alternatively, they can become vasibhuta (overpowered) and come under the control of jada-dharma. By coming into the proximity of the modes of material nature, then, though they are spiritual and conscious, gradually they can accept jada-dharma. That means they tend towards inert nature. In other words, they start to freeze up. Water is soft, but it can gradually become hard-crystals form, it solidifies and becomes ice. In the same way, by the influence of the powerful material energy, the jivas, because they are so tiny, undergo some transformation (vikara) and accept jada dharma, even though they are spiritual by nature. This is the only spiritual energy that has the capacity to accept jada dharma. When vikara of the jiva-svarupa, the transformation of his nature (atma-guna-vikara) takes place, the jiva becomes less and less conscious.

In the human form of life, we are relatively conscious some of the time, and sometimes not. If the jiva will degrade into the animal species, then his consciousness becomes more and more contracted. As he goes further down-to fish, to plants and stones, the consciousness continues to contract, and in stone, the jiva is practically like jada now, having no feeling at all. Though the jivas are spiritual, they can accept jada-dharma. There are other jivas who also came from jiva-sakti, but they manifested directly in the spiritual world when Krsna situated Himself in jiva-sakti and became Baladeva. These jivas are essentially the same as the tatastha jivas, but because they are in the atmosphere of svarupa-sakti, their visuddha-bhava (their pure mood) is active; therefore, they can never be covered by maya. This means they will never accept jada-dharma. Only those jivas that are manifested from Paramatma as tatastha, due to haviing a dual nature, have the opportunity to accept cit-dharma or jada-dharma.

If you want to understand the subject deeply, you have to know that sattva (existence) has many levels. The word sattva means existence; the sandhini-sakti makes existence but it transforms into many levels. So this sattva has different levels. First we should know what is sattva, then misra-sattva, suddha-sattva, visuddha-sattva, and finally suddha-sattva visesatma.

The conditioned soul is called misra-sattva. This existence is contaminated by the reactions of the modes of nature-sattva, rajas and tamas, goodness, passion and ignorance. When the jiva comes in contact with the material energy, vikara takes place in the jiva-svarupa because the gunas have entered his satta (existence). This is the state of misra-sattva, mixed existence. When the jiva's tendency for karma, jnana and yoga have gone, the jiva can completely retract the senses and stop them from contemplating the material energy. This is accomplished either by associating with a transcendental personality or by executing very hard austerities. Gradually his transformation goes away and he comes from the level of misra-sattva to suddha-sattva, pure existence. Now he is mukta purusa, liberated.

In Jaiva Dharma, we see how Brajanatha questioned Raghunatha dasa Babaji. He asked, Now I have understood the defect in the conditioned soul-this vikara in atma-svarupa. He has undergone some transformation due to the association of guna-mayi-maya. But is there any defect in a liberated soul? I am not talking about a pure devotee who is liberated in that world, but rather a mukta, a jiva who has achieved liberation. He is brahma-bhuta-is there any defect in him? Babaji Maharaja replied, There is no defect in a liberated soul in terms of vikara. There is no transformation in jivatma-svarupa. But there is one problem. That is, because he is very weak, from the platform of liberation, again he can fall down. Again, vikara, the transformation, can take place, because he is very tiny and the material energy is very powerful.

This has been described in Srimad-Bhagavatam. It is very important to understand the depth of this verse. If a jiva becomes mukta, that is, suddha, all the vikara goes away; the transformation in his svarupa goes away. It is as if he has come again to the central, or marginal, position. But if he wants to enter the spiritual world, another transformation will have to take place, because when he is liberated, what can he realize? What is in the jiva? Brahma-jnana and brahmananda, only up to this. Therefore, when he is liberated and he becomes free from the influence of the material energy, he will only realize brahma-jnana and brahmananda. From there, again he can become distorted, vikara can take place and he can come in maya again. Only to become pure is not enough. To come to the platform of suddha-sattva is not enough. He will have to come to the stage of visuddha-sattva.

Visuddha-sattva, specialized purity, is the nature of Krsna and His associates and the whole spiritual world. There, the pure existence is predominated by the actions of samvit and hladini, which are of the nature of visuddha-sattva. This is described by Rupa Gosvami in Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu (1.3.1):

suddha-sattva visesatma

prema suryamsu samya-bhak

rucibhis citta-masrnya

krd asau bhava ucayate

Here the word 'visesa' indicates visuddha-sattva. Visesatma prema-don't stop at the end of the line, go one word further, suddha-sattva visesatma prema, the love. In other words, the combination of samvit and hladini, which is of the nature of visuddha, is like the sun, and one ray of that is called bhava. So unless the jiva attains bhava, he can fall down. He may be suddha, but unless his service to the Supreme Lord in the form of bhava-bhakti manifests, he can fall down. Therefore, in Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.2.32), it is stated:

ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninas

tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayah

aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah

patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah

Srila Prabhupada quoted this verse in many of his purports throughout his Bhagavatam. It means, O my Lord, because they neglect to serve Your lotus feet, those who think that they are liberated by dint of very hard austerities again fall down because their intelligence is not pure. We have heard this verse a thousand times, but look closely at the words. It says, ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninas: those who think, manina means they consider themselves vimukta, supremely liberated; they are mukta, they are liberated. They are not touched by the three modes of material nature anymore, but they are thinking, I am vimukta, supremely liberated. Ye 'nye 'ravindaksa,' 'O Aravindaksa, O lotus-eyed Lord, ye-those who, vimukta manina-think they are supremely liberated, tvayy asta bhaved avisuddha-buddhayah-their buddhi is not visuddha. They may be suddha, but they are not visuddha. What will happen to them? Aruhya krcchena-even though by practice, aruhya means they went up, krcchena means by terribly severe austerities, yoga, sense control and jnana; they come up. Param padam-to a transcendental situation, tatah-from that place, patanty-they fall down. Patanti adho 'nadrta-yusmad-anghraya-why did they fall down? 'nadrta-they do not honor You. They have no respect for Your lotus feet, so they fall down.

The jiva may do very hard austerities and gradually, gradually become free from the influence of the material energy, but because, when the svarupa-sakti transforms into tatastha, the action of samvit and hladini is only brahma-jnana and brahmananda. Therefore, although by their own activity they can become liberated, they remain weak, and again they can go down. This is a very important point. If we can understand this tattva, then we will understand all tattvas-such as pramana-tattva, jiva-tattva, guru-tattva, sadhu sanga, vaisnava-tattva, nama-tattva, bhakti-tattva, bhava-tattva, prema-tattva-if we can just clear this point. How? Now we understand that when the jiva is free from the modes, he can become liberated, but the function of samvit and hladini in him is only brahma-jnana and brahmananda.

That is why every single living entity has a tendency to try just to get out of this world (nirvana). This is their disposition. Generally, all the jivas of this world do not naturally go toward bhakti. There are millions and millions of people in this world following a spiritual path, all of whom are like Buddhists. All are mayavadis. Otherwise, they are Christians and think God is the light. Even Muslims, Sikhas, Jains and all others ultimately think that God is not a person, that He has no form, and that there is no sense of service in that realm. Why? Because this is the nature of the jiva. Up until the point of liberation, even in the pure state, it is their nature.

[Shakti-Fan]

So, if this is the nature of the jiva, why is devotional service being called jaiva dharma? Why? This is a very wonderful thing. Now we come very deeply to the conception of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and all our acaryas. The tatastha-sakti is ultimately a transformation of svarupa-sakti, so the vrttis of samvit and hladini are present in the form of brahma-jnana and brahamananda. But because the jiva-sakti is ultimately transformed from svarupa-sakti, the jivas undergo another transformation by the association of a person who is himself established in svarupa-sakti. The samvit and hladini which is present in the jiva can be transformed, the brahma-jnana transforms into sambandha-jnana and the brahmananda into premananda, or sevananda. Ultimately, the tatastha-sakti is a transformation of svarupa-sakti. Then, though the jivas have not come from the spiritual world, they have come from tatastha, thus samvit and hladini in them is only as brahma-jnana and brahmananda, even if they are completely pure. Still, because ultimately the tatastha-sakti has come from (is a transformation of) svarupa sakti, the samvit and hladini within them becomes refined and transforms back, even though the jiva himself was never like that. Because tatastha has come from there originally, transformation takes place: brahma-jnana into sambandha-jnana and the brahmananda into premananda, sevananda.

I'll give one example to clarify this. This example has been given in Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.2.24) and it's quoted by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura in Madhurya Kadambini:

parthivad daruno dhumas

tasmad agnis trayimayah

tamasas tu rajas tasmat

sattvam yad brahma-darsanam

[The firewood is the transformation of the earth, and smoke is better than the raw wood, and fire is still better, because by fire we can derive so many benefits by superior knowledge, or Vedas. Similarly, rajas quality of matter is better than tamas quality, but sattva quality is the superior quality by which one can realize the Absolute Truth.]

He is saying that if you gather a big pile of dirt and try to set it on fire, what will happen? Nothing. But earth transforms into wood. If wood is wet, you can't do anything with it either, but if it is dry, you can light a fire. From fire you can perform a yajna, and from a yajna you can get transcendental knowledge. In the same way, when the jiva is absorbed in misra-sattva, when he is in the mode of ignorance, you can't do anything with him. He is useless-just sleeping all day, getting drunk, arguing and lamenting. But at least, if the jiva is in the mode of passion, that is better because he is running around like a madman. In this condition he can make himself useful-you can give him a bookbag or a mrdanga and let him run around. Gradually, as the effect of raja guna goes away, he will come in sattva guna. In this world, however, there is always some mixture of tamas and rajas in sattva guna. But when he comes to pure goodness, suddha-sattva, then, sattvam yam brahma-darsanam.

From that platform he can realize brahma. The jiva can be compared to wood. Inside the wood there is fire. Why? Wood is formed by heat coming from the sun. The sun has fire, which has been absorbed and stored up in the wood. That piece of wood was never on fire, never. If you put the wood down and carefully watch it forever, it will never catch on fire, never. But if another piece of wood which is already on fire will come and touch it, what will happen? The wood will burst into flames. Where did the fire in the first piece of wood come from? It originally came from the sun and was already in the wood, but it takes the touch of the second piece of wood that was already on fire to cause the potential within that wood to come out. By itself, it will not come out.

In the same way, the jiva, coming from tatastha sakti, cannot do any bhakti. On its own, the jiva cannot do bhakti, no matter how much he chants, how much he reads, how much he associates with other jivas, who are also like wood. There will have to be at least one piece of wood that is on fire-who has visuddha-bhava. This is true even if the living entity is doing a very strong sadhana, and he has been liberated from the modes of passion and ignorance. Sometimes devotees will glorify someone, This devotee is really brahminical. He gets up everyday and serves the deities and chants so much. He's so fixed and steady and so much in the mode of goodness. He's a very good devotee. Then, after thirty years he falls down. Why? Because it doesn't matter how pure you become by your own efforts, you will only come up to the platform of sattva, pure goodness. You can realize brahma-jnana and brahmananda. But how will the potential within you, like the fire in wood, come out? Your potential sambandha-jnana and sevananda, or premananda, will not come out. There's nothing you can do. The jiva's ultimate potential will surface only when he comes in contact with a pure devotee who has bhava, suddha-sattva visesatma, who is not in misra-sattva or suddha-sattva. Then and then only, by that contact, will the idea come in his heart that I want to serve God, and his tendency to go towards karma, yoga or jnana-sense gratification and liberation, bhukti and mukti-will begin to be severed. When one associates with a maha-bhagavata, a pure devotee in the stage of bhava, a new-born desire comes, that first feeling that I don't want enjoyment, I don't want exploitation or renunciation, I want only dedication. This first feeling is called bhakti-lata-bija.

Therefore: brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavana jiva

guru krsna prasade paya bhakti lata bija

Where does this bhakti-lata-bija come from? Does the jiva have it? No. Does the guru have it? No. When the jiva comes in contact with someone who has visuddha-bhava, then, the potential that was there becomes activated. It is a function; can we say a function is there or not? A function is not a substance, it's a function. For example, you are sitting down now, you can run, but when you are sitting, where is running? Do you have running? No, because it's not a substance, it's a potential, you can run. So this function, that is, krsna-seva vasana, the desire to serve Krsna, becomes animated. That latent function becomes animated when he meets the maha-bhagavat, who has visuddha-bhava. Therefore brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva. The jivas are wandering through thousands of lifetimes and his tendency to serve Krsna will never come-he will always strive for bhukti or mukti. This is what we see in so many religions of the world. But this tendency, I want to serve Krsna only, being free from bhukti and mukti, comes when he associates with someone who is on fire, not someone who is in misra-sattva, or even a mukta in suddha-sattva. What is required is a pure devotee who has prema or at least bhava. He is called jata rati vaisnava. The association of a vaisnava who has rati can cause the awakening of the tendency within the jiva to serve Krsna. This tendency is called bhakti-lata-bija. We will need more and more association. Why? Because the jiva's pure visuddha mood has not come yet. Only by the light of that association he is feeling something. If he doesn't have that association, that feeling to serve Krsna will become very weak and will eventually turn into bhukti and mukti again. Why? Because his realization is coming like a reflection from the association, and it will remain like this until he comes into the stage of bhava.

When the jiva's desire to serve Krsna is kindled by the association of a pure devotee, he will face some obstacles and problems. These are called anarthas and they come in many varieties:

1) Svarupa bhrama: that means philosophical misconceptions. These are of four types: Sva-svarupa bhrama-in regard to one's own nature. For example, many devotees think that the jiva has no svarupa, we are just a blob of Brahman; but no, we do have a very subtle form. But the tendency to serve will not come without association. This is called jiva-svarupa bhrama. Then paratattva-svarupa bhrama-not understanding the nature of paratattva Sri Krsna. Then sadhya-sadhana-bhrama-not knowing what is the goal of life and the process to achieve it. The last one is called bhajana-virodhi-visaya bhrama: not understanding what is detrimental to our bhajana. So these misconceptions will have to go away.

2) Then the second type of anartha it called asat trsna, thirst for asat, that which is not opposed to our eternal nature. It is also of four types: 1) the thirst for material enjoyment in this world; 2) the desire for happiness in the heavenly planets, svarga loka. The third one is the desire for asta siddhi and nava nidhi, the eight perfections of yoga and nine jewels of Kuvera. The fourth one is liberation. This is also called asat trsna, thirst for that which is opposed to our eternal nature.

3) Aparadha-this is of four types. The first one is seva-aparadha. That means offences to Krsna's svarupa, the deity in the temple. There are thirty-two types of seva-aparadha. Then there are ten types of nama-aparadha. The next aparadha is called tadiya-aparadha, offences to those who are tadiya-they belong to Krsna, such as Vaisnavas, Tulasi devi, guru, sastra and so on. Then jiva-aparadha, to all jivas, even those who are not devotees. They are apparently disconnected from God, but we should not make offences even to an ant. These are the four types of offences.

4) The last one is hrdaya durbalya, weakness of heart. This is manifest in the tendency to be proud, as well as fault-finding, enviousness, duplicity and attachment to very insignificant things.

Now the question comes, what is anartha? Where is it? We all have anarthas we have to deal with, so if we just knew what they were and where to find them, then we could locate them and wipe them off the face of the earth. OK anarthas, you've been giving me so many problems. We're going to line you up against the wall andŠ We've heard so much about all the different types of anarthas, but what are they and where are they? We know about so many substances-earth, water, fire, air, ether, intelligence, mind, false ego-we know all the ingredients, the twenty-six elements of the material world. But I never saw anartha anywhere among the elements. So what are they made of? What is this anartha? In Jaiva Dharma, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura clearly explains the conception of anartha, which is called naisargika phal, the fruit of nisarga. In other words, when the jiva undergoes vikara and his svabhava becomes latent, he attains nisarga, an aquired nature. Anarthas are the automatic characteristics of his citta-vrtti, the tendency of his consciousness due to having an acquired nature. Now the jiva has become hard, so he will have to become very soft. He will have give up his rigid behavior and attitudes and learn to relax a little bit. This relaxation or melting means that he will have to let go of his accustomed behavior as a softness gradually comes in the jiva. This softness indicates that he is gradually becoming free from nisarga, the acquired nature.

[Shakti-Fan]

What is the method by which the jiva gradually becomes soft and lets go of the acquired nature, which is characterized by the presence of so many different anarthas? It is called saranagati. Surrender is the process of giving up the nisarga, the acquired nature. And how do you know that the jiva is giving up his nisarga? Because these anarthas, which are the fruits of nisarga, are all gradually disappearing; they are fading away and becoming less and less and less. That is called anartha nivrtti. So:

adau sraddha tatah sadhu-

sanga 'tha bhajana-kriya

tato 'nartha-nivrtti syat

tato nistha rucis tatah

From sraddha up to ruci are the progressive steps of the gradual process of saranagati. Now we can understand saranagati-giving up nisarga and approaching our actual svabhava. So Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains that in this process of saranagati, there are six angas, six limbs. What are they?

anukulyasya sankalpah pratikulyasya varjanam

raksisyat iti visvaso goptrtve varanam tatha

atma-niksepa karpanye sad-vidha saranagatih

(Hari-bhakti-vilasa 11.676)

Anukulyasya sankalpa, we make a strong vow, I will do everything which is favorable for devotional service. Pratikulyasya varjanam, I will make a determined effort not to do anything against my practice of devotional service. Raksisyatiti visvaso, I have a strong faith that in any situation Krsna will protect me. Goptrtve varanam tatha, Now and tomorrow and forever, I will not have to do anything for my maintenance, Krsna will maintain me. Dainya, to always be meek and humble and give respect to others. And atma-nivedana means to not have any interest separate from the interest of Krsna. In the beginning, surrender means to Gurudeva and Vaisnavas, gurupadasraya, surrendering completely to Gurudeva,because at first we don't know Krsna. To not have any interest separate from the desire of guru, to make your desire and the desire of guru one-this is atma-nivedana.

The six angas of saranagati are composed of five moods. The first mood is called pratijna, promise, anukulyasya sankalpah-pratikulyasya varjanam, I will do everything favorable and give up everything unfavorable. These two together make one mood that is called pratijna, I promise-this mood should come. Then the next mood, Krsna will certainly protect me, is called visvas, confidence, confidence in Krsna. The third mood, I know that Krsna will maintain me throughout my whole life-this is called nirbharata, dependence. Then, to always be humble-this is dainya bhava. And finally, atma-nivedana means not to have an independent mood. To depend on Krsna is one mood and not to have any independent mentality is the final mood.

So now we can see where we are. We are in misra-sattva. Some devotees are very pure, I know, but myself and others like me are now absorbed in misra-sattva. Our jivatma has undergone vikara, some transformation, and we are ruled by an acquired nature, nisarga. The fruit of this nisarga is anartha, but if everyday we try to keep in our hearts these five moods, that is, a very firm promise, confidence in Krsna, to depend on Krsna, to always be humble, and have no self-interest, then when these five moods are firmly situated in the heart, that means that the nisarga has gone away.

The combination of these five moods together is called sraddha, faith-this sraddha is suddha, it is pure. This is called paramartika sraddha. The first sraddha, as found in the verse 'adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sanga', is not paramarthika. It is not transcendental faith. It is worldly faith only, and it is soft, but because it came about by some contact with a sadhu, there is a slight scent of paramartika sraddha in it. It manifests in the feeling that only Krsna is worshipable; all the demigods are not worshipable, only Krsna. If this mood is there-that God is a person and He is the object of my worship, not anyone else-this laukika sraddha mentioned here is called 'adau sraddha'. There is only a smell of paramarthika sraddha in it in the form of one-pointedness towards Krsna. But strictly speaking, at this time, sraddha is not called paramartika because it is mixed. The jiva is still in the stage of misra-sattva, but he is trying hard to make a strong promise: I will follow everything my Gurudeva said. I have confidence in Guru and Krsna. Guru and Krsna will maintain me, and I will not be independent.

When these moods gradually become stronger and stronger, and five moods are combined in the heart, that means naisargika phala is going away. This is called anartha nivrtti, and the devotee becomes steady. Now his suddha mood is coming. He is advancing to the platform of being liberated, because the effect of the modes of nature is going away. In nistha he is still not fully surrendered, but when ruci starts to come, he is known as saranagat, unconditionally surrendered. Even when he is in nistha, these five moods are always in his heart; he never lets go and no material moods predominate. Then if he will continue to associate with a sadhu, ruci will come. Why? Because there is some light coming out from that association. By his own effort alone, he can only realize something of brahma, but by that association he can have a realization-I want to serve Krsna in a particular way. Before taking sadhu sanga, he was not entitled to this realization. And when that feeling comes to serve Krsna in one particular mood, he has entered ruci.

The bhakti-lata-bija has been called sraddha which is steady and mixed with pure ruci. The inner portion of the bhakti-lata-bija is the desire to serve Krsna, krsna-seva-vasana, and the outer portion is sraddha, faith. The external symptom that someone has faith is 'sa ca saranapati laksana' (Amnaya Sutra 58), they are unconditionally surrendered and are manifesting these five moods. Now there is an important point to note here. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura said that when the six angas of saranagati are manifest, five feelings are firmly situated in the heart of the jiva. Those five feelings combined together is called sraddha and that mood is the first step that the conditioned jiva takes in becoming like the nitya parikaras, the associates of Sri Krsna in the spiritual world. The associates of Radha and Krsna in the spiritual world always have these moods, but in a very advanced degree. When the living entity gives up his nisarga and these five moods are firmly situated in his heart (he has achieved sraddha), that is the first step that the jiva takes in becoming just like them. If you want to live in this world, you have to be like everyone else. But if you want to live in that world, you'll have to make the first step in becoming like them, and that is paramarthika sraddha. This will not come in misra-sattva or during nisarga. Naisargika phala should melt away by the process of saranagati; the devotee's mood must be steady, and then he comes in his suddha mood.

Now, from this suddha mood begins ruci, and suddha-bhava is coming. Visuddha-bhava refers to the transformation of brahma-jnana into sambandha-jnana, and brahmananda into premananda, but this has not happened yet. The transformation has not yet taken place properly until bhava-bhakti comes. Ruci is the first appearance of suddha-bhava, and in this stage he must have association. When ruci becomes thicker, it turns into asakti, attachment. In the stage of asakti, now his heart is so pure that he can realize his spiritual form. He can see an abhasa (semblance) of his spiritual form at the time of chanting-some sphurti takes place by mercy of guru. Why? The form was already there, but covered. Therefore Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu says:

ceto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam

sreyah-kairava-candrika-vitaranam vidya-vadha-jivanam

anandambudhi-vardhanam prati-padam purnamrtasvadanam

sarvatma-snapanam param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam

Ceto darpana marjanam refers to sraddha, you should have some paramarthika sraddha. When you chant, bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam, all the anarthas are going. Then sreyah-kairava-candrika-vitaranam: this means that the name is like the moon and the rays of bhava are coming from that pure name. But in the stage of ruci, you are not chanting the pure name. Therefore, you must do kirtana with devotees who are chanting the pure name. And the rays coming out from that pure name will induce the lotus of your heart to open. This is ruci. The jiva can go up to liberation himself, but when he does kirtana with someone who has visuddha mood, then its rays touch his heart and initiate the first feeling that I want to serve Sri Radha-Krsna like Rupa Manjari. This is called ruci. Why? Because the rays of bhava coming from his association are opening his heart, and when it starts to open more and more, he sees the abhasa of his own svarupa in the stage of asakti. At the time of bhajana, he sometimes sees Radha and Krsna and Vrndavana also. But because his own visuddha-bhava has not come yet, he has no seva-adhikara, he has no qualification to go and serve Them. Gurudeva always says, He can see but he can't touch. Like in a sweet shop, the sweets are behind glass-you can see the sweets but you cannot taste them.

So in that stage, he should associate more and more, and the more he stays in contact with someone who is on fire, then the fire, the potential within him, comes out and he goes from asakti to bhava. That is called:

suddha-sattva visesatma prema suryamsu samya-bhak

rucibhis citta-masrnya krd asau bhava ucayate

What is bhava? Now, by his association, the potential which was in him comes out. Rucibhis citta-masryna, and his citta is masrnya. Now it just melts completely, it becomes completely molten-that is called bhava. What is the melting of the heart? This involves three types of tastes: bhagavat-prapti-abhilasa, anukula-abhilasa and sauhard-abhilasa. In ruci, this desire arises, but when bhava comes, his heart totally melts and his spiritual body is now totally enlivened-he is composed of this taste. What is that? Bhagavat-prapti-abhilasa-to attain Radha and Krsna; anukula-abhilasa-to serve Radha and Krsna in such a way that They become extremely happy; and sauhard-abhilasa-to not only serve Them, but to be really really intimate, to have one heart with Them, to become tadatmika with Radhika. This is bhava.

In misra-sattva, the jiva has nisarga, he is very hard. When the nisarga goes away, he becomes pure. But it is not until he goes on doing bhajana in the association of pure devotees that the heart totally melts. Then, all the potential for love of Krsna comes out in the form of intense desires-to always be with Radha and Krsna, to always serve Them, and not only to serve Them but to have intimacy and equality with Them. Therefore, what is the process of sadhana-bhakti? This is very important. Through proper sadhana and association, all types of tattvas can be understood.

Now we are coming to sadhana-bhakti-tattva. Rupa Gosvami gives the definition in Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu:

krti-sadhya bhavet-sadhya

bhava sa sadhanabhida

nitya-siddhasya bhavasya

prakatyam hrdi sadhyata

What is sadhana? Krti-sadhya, you achieve this by your senses. You are engaging the senses of your body and mind in hearing, chanting and remembering. Sadhya bhava sa sadhanabhida-so that you can attain your sadhya bhava, your perfect mood. Then, if you will hear this first line, it seems that by doing sadhana, you will get something. But no, it is not that by practicing you will get it; it's not like that. This mood is nitya-siddhasya, nitya-siddha-bhava. Siddha means established, it is established in the heart. It is a potential within the jiva, but you will have to do sadhana, and by doing this sadhana, what will happen? Prakatyam hrdi sadhyata, it will manifest. Gurudeva gives the example of stones-in stones there is fire, but you can't see it. However, if you strike two stones together, sparks jump out. Don't think that by clashing the stones together, you made a spark. The fire was already there; you only caused it to manifest. In the same way, when someone does sadhana, he is trying hard again and again; when nitya-siddha-bhava manifests, one should not think that it was produced by one's sadhana. Only prakatyam hrdi sadhyata-what was always there comes out. So when the relationship with Krsna manifests in the heart of the jiva, he feels, I was always the servant of Radha and Krsna. This is who I am. This is self-realization. So even though bhava is something you attain by sadhana, when it comes, he feels like I always had it. This is something very weird. We have to go on chanting. There are not any words to tell what this experience is. Only Rupa Gosvami felt and realized everything, and he is telling us in his writings.

At the time of doing sadhana-bhajana, the devotee can realize, O Rupa Gosvami, how did you write such a wonderful thing! And then a very intense desire comes in you to run and fall at his feet. What Rupa Gosvami has written is so sweet and beautiful. If one will do bhajana, he can realize the words of Srila Rupa Gosvamipada. Now there is one important point here. In Siksastakam, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu writes, vidya vadhu jivanam. When asakti comes you will realize, Oh, I am the maidservant of Radhika, but you cannot serve Her. So, anandambudhi vardhanam, the ocean of ananda is increasing (vardhanam). In other words, ananda was already present in the jiva; now that ananda becomes so powerful. Though the jiva as a vastu is minute, his dharma is unlimited. His prema dharma is unlimited and so powerful. The vast Supreme Personality of Godhead, the controller of all existence, can become controlled by the prema of a tiny jiva. This is the impossible potential of love.

Now, what is the jiva, what nature is in the jiva? I want to explain these tattvas and how this concept of jaiva dharma makes all tattvas clear. So far, we have explained bhakti-tattva-what is sadhana-bhakti and bhava-bhakti, and what is sraddha, bhajana kriya, anartha nivrtti, anartha, nistha, ruci, bhakti-lata-bija, asakti, bhava, bhava-bhakti and prema-bhakti. All of these concepts have become clear only by understanding jaiva dharma.

Now we come to another tattva, guru-tattva. If we will understand only Jaiva Dharma, then we know what is guru-tattva. It does not matter what the jiva does or who he associates with, he cannot even attain ruci unless he has the sanga of a jata-rati-vaisnava. Even if he is always hearing, chanting, remembering and performing other limbs of bhakti, ruci will not come without associating with a Vaisnava in whose heart visuddha-bhava (visuddha-sattva) is present. The desire to serve Krsna in a particular way, the bhakti-lata-bija, will not come. And even if he has associated with a guru and he has received that bhakti-lata-bija, if he does not go on associating, as Gurudeva always says, It will dry up and be finished.

Now, guru-tattva is clear. The guru must have visuddha-bhava; he must have rati. Otherwise, the jivas will always go for bhukti and mukti. They are hearing, chanting and remembering, but what is the result? To have a bigger temple with more marble, a more comfortable room, a better computer, a bigger car, more disciples and a new wife. And if they get a new wife, afterwards they want mukti, liberation. So the jiva will always go towards bhukti and mukti unless he associates with a jata-rati-vaisnava. This is bound to happen; the jiva has no choice, because that is all there is in the tatastha-sakti. The refinement of brahma-jnana and brahmananda takes place only by the association of someone with visuddha-bhava.

We have explained bhakti-tattva, sadhana-tattva, bhava-tattva, prema-tattva, and now guru-tattva is clear. Now come to the next concept, sadhu sanga. You have a bona fide guru who is liberated, and he gave you diksa mantra. So do you still need to associate with a sadhu? Yes. Why? Because if you take a piece of wood which is on fire and touch the other piece of wood and then take it away, what will happen? Even if it was starting to turn black and smoke a little bit, the spark of fire will still go out. You'll have to keep that fire there until the other one is also on fire. In other words, the jiva will have to associate again and again and again with maha-bhagavat jata-rati-bhava-bhaktas until their own bhava manifests; they won't burn on their own until the flames of bhava have manifested in their heart. Even if they have realized sambandha-jnana and they know who they are-sometimes they see the abhasa of their svarupa in a sphurti-but still, until bhava comes, they will have to associate again and again. When they achieve rati and have seva-adhikara, they begin their service to Radha and Krsna. Spontaneously, asta-kaliya-lila comes in their heart whenever they chant. Until this stage comes, even the heat that was coming will cool down if they give up associating. So now, the philosophy of sadhu sanga has been clarified. Do you need to associate with sadhu? Yes. And how much do you need? You need to associate up to bhava. And when you come to the level of bhava, then without sadhu sanga, you will go mad. At that point, this question will not arise. That person does not think, Do I need sadhu sanga? That person rolls on the ground and weeps bitterly:

sunyayate maha-gostham

girindro 'jagarayate

vyaghra-tundayate kundam

jivatu-rahitasya me

(Sri Prarthanasraya-caturdasaka, verse 11)

The whole of Vrndavana is now like a desert, Giriraja Govardhana is like a python eating me alive. Radha Kunda is like the mouth of a tiger about to devour me alive. Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami is asking, Why is it like this? Because I don't have the association of Rupa Gosvami. There is no need to ask such a person, Do you need sadhu sanga? They are beyond any misconception in this regard.

We have clearly explained the necessity of and the extent to which we need sadhu sanga. We have also discussed what kind of sadhu we should associate with, and what is vaisnava-tattva. Next we will look at pramana-tattva. Does anyone know Dasa Mula Siksa?

amnayah praha tattvam harim iha paramam sarva-saktim rasabdhim tad-bhinnamsams ca jivan prakrti-kavalitan tad-vimuktams ca bhavad bhedabheda-prakasam sakalam api hareh sadhanam suddha-bhaktim sadhyam tat pritim evety upadisati janan gauracandrah svayam sah

There are so many more tattvas and they all expand on the basis of one fundamental idea, a clear conception of the dharma of the jiva. Therefore, my Gurudeva often remarks that Jaiva Dharma is a masterpiece and anyone who is well acquainted with it will become very strong because he will know every siddhanta without any doubt or misconception.

Gaura premanande!

[Beggar]

Wow, it takes super long posts to shut down a discussion like this. Almost but not quite. Almost only counts in Horse Shoes and handgrenades!

[Beggar]

 

 

"We are

tatastha-sakti,

marginal potency, and if we want to know any truth about higher reality, we must realize that it is more subtle than our existence, it is super-subjective: It can touch us, but we cannot climb up to that domain out of our own sweet will. Only if we are given the grace which can take us up can we go.

 

"One who has this understanding will be able to combat all the existing intellectualists. The intellect has no capacity to enter into the higher subjective area. That supreme truth is atindriya-manasagocarah: beyond the plane of the senses, mind, and intellect. This expression manaso vapuso vaco vaibhavam tava gocarah by Brahma, admitting to Krsna that He was beyond the reach of his body, mind, and words, was not only a lip-deep statement of the mouth. If we want to know the absolute truth, the only condition for realizing Him is a submissive attitude. In that way, He may be satisfied with our attempt and reveal Himself to us. Divine revelation is not a matter of research within this world–we should have a sincere heart to serve.

Srimad Bhagavatam (7.5.30) it is written:

 

matir na krsne paratah svato va

mitho bhipadyeta grha-vratanam

adanta-gobirvisatam tamisram

punah punas carvita-carvananam

 

 

"Srimad-Bhagavatam

tells us that we can try to enter the world of higher reality through intellectualism, but we will again come back, baffled in our attempts. If we try to press with our intelligence to enter into that domain, we will come back dissatisfied in despair and will wander here within this mortal world again and again.

 

 

sreyah srtim bhaktim udasya te vibho

klisyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye

tesam asau klesala eva sisyate

nanyad yatha sthula-tusavaghatinam

 

 

"O Lord, those who want to have a clear conception of You through their intellect find their attempts useless. Their endeavors end only in frustration, like those who try to beat rice from an empty husk." (

Bhag.

10.14.4)

 

"So jnana, knowledge, is like an empty husk. Energy and knowledge are only outer aspects. The real substance, the rice, is devotion–love. That is the tasteful thing within. Other things are covers (jnana-karmady-anavrtam). But what is within the cover is tasteful, eternal, auspicious, and beautiful: satyam, sivam, sundaram. Beauty is reality, ecstasy is reality; everything else is only an outer cover - with the cover, we cannot get the substance within. Then our life becomes a disappointment:." (Srila Sridhar Maharaja)

[cbrahma]

 

since when does "relationship" mean spiritual body?

it has already been explained in shastra many times that the relationship is that the soul is a spark of light in the effulgence of Krishna.

The relationsip is servant.

 

That is the relationship.

Krishna is the whole and the jiva soul is the part.

 

Why do people always try to screw some personal form out of the term relationship?

 

I have a relationship with the chair I am setting in.

I set in the chair and the chair holds me up.

That doesn't means the chair has a spiritual form in Goloka that it has forgotten about.

 

Lord Chaitanya said the svarupa of the jiva is a spirit spark 1/10,000th the size the tip of a hair.

That is the definition of svarupa according to Lord Chaitanya.

 

Why do people insist that Mahaprabhu was wrong?

Hatred for the brahmajyoti is hatred of Krishna because Krishna says "this brahmajyoti is myself".

"Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa"

[cbrahma]

 

I was using the akrura story as analogy, but I do understand the concept of Krsna illusion as opposed to the forgetfulness of the jiva. These two opposing mayas make things hard to discuss at times, kinda like acintya bheda bheda tattwa.

 

The real point of my last post, which has never been answered by those who claim that srila prabhupada never taught that our original position is with God as his servant, is that what is meant when srila prabhupada often states that "we have somehow or other forgotten". My question, "forgotten" what?

 

I was excited that Kula posted a thread about back to godhead. I writwe here to not pollute that thread with this continual discussion that goes nowhere. Agsain, I ask those who thing we were never in our swarupa siddhi ifn full krsna consciousness, why BACK to godhead? Back means to return, meaning we were once there. All of Srila Prabhuipadas teachings are nullified by those who say we have not forgotten, that we were never with Krsna, that we are dead eternally conditioned stones that have no consciousness, and then, presto, we get a brand new life with God.

 

All theology is based on RETURNING. The prodigal son, the two servants spending three incarnations as demons who fight directly with Krsna as temporary setbacks, after which they again assume their posts as gatekeepers to the Vaikunthas.

 

Srila Prabhupada did not name his publication "attaining Godhead", "Discovering Godhead", or even "The Descending Gift of Godhead". It is Back to Godhead, returning to where we once were, before "somehow or other we have forgotten."

 

I see why there is so much discussion on this subject, because the basic premise is ESSENTIAL to the very foundation of this science. The debate goes nowhere, but the tattwa doesnt change by the opinions of us with our foggy memories.

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

At last, the refreshing voice of clarity and reason.