Fall theory is worse than Mayavada says Narasingha Maharaja

[Beggar]

Little jiva little one

Made My heart come all undone

Do you see Me, do you little jiva soul

jiva soul My little jiva soul

 

I have watched you on the tatastha shore

Standing by the Casual Oceans roar

Do you see Me do you little jiva soul

jiva soul my little jiva soul

 

We could come to the Material or Spiritual Worlds together

Or stay here and watch the tatastha shatki grow

Along with Paramatma I would take you... everywhere in matter you go

So I say from Me to you

I will make your dreams come true

Do you see Me do you little jiva soul

jiva soul My little jiva soul

Well

jiva soul My little jiva soul

Well

jiva soul My little jiva soul

Well

jiva soul My little jiva soul:crazy2:

[gHari]

So like do dudes sleep in Goloka, like after a hard day of chasing cows and stuff? I guess I could go and check for myself but it appears I have some attachment to this place to sort out.

 

Sorry; the sleeper thread turned into a nightmare.

[Kulapavana]

It is not that I dont believe that our constitutional position is being a servant of Krsna. This is what we are meant to be, or the only thing we can be in the sense of our proper functioning. But I dont believe that this is what we were before we came to this world.

 

This is how I understand these often confusing statements Srila Prabhupada made on this subject.

 

As the Back to Godhead thread was closed I hope this thread will not degenerate into a similar mele...

[Guruvani]

 

It is not that I dont believe that our constitutional position is being a servant of Krsna. This is what we are meant to be, or the only thing we can be in the sense of our proper functioning. But I dont believe that this is what we were before we came to this world.

 

This is how I understand these often confusing statements Srila Prabhupada made on this subject.

 

The way I read it is that there is no escaping service to Krishna.

That is what is meant by constitutional position.

Even the living entity in the modes of material nature is serving Krishna.

You cannot escape or avoid service to Krishna.

Either you serve him with love in the spiritual world or you serve him without love in the material world, there is no escaping serving Krishna.

 

The material energy is Krishna's energy.

The modes of natures are Krishna's creation.

 

Everyone is serving Krishna whether they know or not or like it or not everyone is servant of Krishna and there is no escape.

It is just a matter of whether we choose to do it with love or do it without love.

 

nitya-krishnadas means forever and eternally servant of Krishna.

So, there cannot be any break in service to Krishna even if we fall into illusion and material desire.

 

It is not that we only become servant of Krishna if we surrender and attain Goloka-dhama.

Everyone is eternally servant of Krishna.

Even those who hate Krishna are serving Krishna because Krishna is master of the material energy.

 

So, the idea of NO-fall can actually be an accepted concept if we accept the fact that even as we are pursuing material desires in the material world we are actually still serving Krishna indirectly though being servant of his maya.

 

We are servants of maya.

Maya is servant of Krishna.

 

So, indirectly nobody can escape service to Krishna.

 

<center> jivera svarupa haya krsnera nitya dasa

krsnera tatastha sakti bhedabheda prakasa

</center> "The constitutional position of the jiva is that of an eternal servant of Krishna. The jiva belongs to the marginal potency of Krishna and as such the jiva is considered a manifestation simultaneously one and different from Krishna."

 

Eternal servant of Krishna means without break, forever and unceasing.

No living entity can ever escape serving Krishna even though he might think he has.

 

(but, we aren't serving in Goloka in a spiritual body. we are serving in the material world with a material body)

[Vigraha]

In actual fact NO-ONE FALLS DOWN, but not in the way Kundali/Satyanarayan explain in their book "In Vaikuntha Not Even The Leaves Fall".

Why? Because we are now only ‘dreaming’ or ‘thinking’ that we are not there in Goloka or Vaikuntha when in actual fact our svarupa body is ALWAYS there regardless. Srila Prabhupada explains clearly to us that our original position is ALWAYS in Goloka and that we only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are fallen OR NOT THERE. In fact we are not fallen, we only 'IMAGINE, BELIEVE or have convinced ourselves that we are fallen due to our mistaken selfish desires.

There argument is therefore with the words from His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Clearly without any doubt whatsoever Srila Prabhupada tells us we ALL come down from Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada -”The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully”(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service”(Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that I have nothing to do with this material world and that I am simply Krishna’s servant.- Eternal servant. That’s all. Lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - “You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 196

Srila Prabhupada - “Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that I have nothing to do with this material world and that I am simply Krishna’s servant.- Eternal servant., we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada – “We have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - “When the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972

Srila Prabhupada - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only”

Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

Srila Prabhupada clearly states “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what your relationship with Krishna is automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explain very clearly to his disciples and grand disciples to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka.

There is no region, place or plane called tatastha, the jiva souls ARE the jiva-tatastha's. Also they are NOT inbetween the material and Vaikuntha realm but rather choose between SERVING the Superior energy (Krishna and His expansions) or being COVERED by and a slave to the inferior energy (maha-tattva)

In other words, one can stay in Vaikuntha as their 'svarupa' body or 'dream' of an imaginary self COVERED by the material energies ethereal and biological vessels within the mahat-tattva.

In actual fact NO-ONE FALLS DOWN, but not in the way Kundali/Satyanarayan explain in their nonsense book. Why? Because we are now only ‘dreaming’ or ‘thinking’ that we are not there in Goloka or Vaikuntha when in actual fact our svarupa body is ALWAYS there regardless. Srila Prabhupada explains clearly to us that our original position is ALWAYS in Goloka and that we only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are fallen OR NOT THERE. In fact we are not fallen, we only 'IMAGINE, BELIEVE or have convienced ourselves that we are fallen due to our mistaken selfish desires.

All glorious to Srila Prabhupada

[Vigraha]

The correct translation from the teachings of Jiva Gosvami -

The jiva-sakti is not included within the svarupa-sakti that refers to superior energy, which are Krishna and His Vishnu tattva expansions. The jiva-sakti is also not included within the maya-sakti or the inferior energy or the Lord known as the mahat-tattva or material creation that is the dream of Maha-Vishnu. The jiva sakti is totally independent and can choose to serve the superior energy or be covered and a slave to the inferior energy. In this way the independent marginal living entity is known as tatastha-sakti. This also means the marginal living beings can choose to remain as their perpetual svarupa body serving Krishna in Goloka in the eternal 'present', or can choose to be covered by the inferior energy or the temporary bodily vessels that are on offer within the mahat-tattva or material creation. This mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu takes up and attracts only 25% of the living entities in creation to 'consciously' abandon their perpetual service to Krishna and their 'svarupa' body that is their eternal bodily form that has no beginning or end within Goloka and Vaikukuntha.

The word tata means a shore or bank, like the shoreline of an ocean; and the verbal root stha means to be situated. The shore is not part of the ocean, yet it is not part of the land, which borders the ocean. One situated on the shoreline is known as tatastha. He is situated neither within the ocean, nor on the land.

The above means the marginal living entities can choose to serve Krishna AS their original svarupa position within the perpetual 'present, or can choose to forget that genuine eternal bodily identity that is always their in Goloka or Vaikuntha and be covered [like a cloud or dream] by the mahat-tattva's illusionary [temporary] ethereal and biological vessels. Tatastha also means being completely independent and in between the influence of the Superior and inferior energy (they are not Vishnu-tattva nor belong to the mahat-tattva), they have their own ‘marginal identity' that is not part of both the superior energy [Krishna, His Vishnu-tattva expansions] and the inferior energy the [maha-tattva or material lifeless energy] (that’s why it’s called marginal) yet paradoxically are 'dependant on Krishna in Goloka or Maha-Vishnu within the material creation or mahat-tattva)

In his Paramatma-sandarbha, Jiva Gosvami has described the tatastha-sakti as follows: “The jiva-sakti is known as tatastha-sakti for two reasons. First of all it cannot be included within mayasakti for it is beyond maya-sakti (This means the marginal living entity you and I are not part of the inferior energy or mahat-tattva, but can be covered by it). Secondly, although jiva-sakti is overcome by ignorance, the defect of being overcome in this way cannot touch the Paramatma (Maha-Vishnu - Kshirodakasayi Vishnu accompanies the marginal living entity as Paramatma ONLY while covered by ethereal and biological vessels because those vessels are the property of Paramatma (maha-Vishnu) situated in his heart of His bodily creations).

This is understood by the following analogy. We see that shade or clouds can cover some portion of the sun’s rays, but the sun itself cannot be covered. Similarly, the individual marginal living entity, who is vibhinnamsa, a separated part of Him is always as their full potential perpetually vigraha form established as their svarupa body in their original position in the eternal ‘present’ that can be forgotten or covered by the mahat-tattva like clouds or shade cover the sun.

In this way the marginal living entity can 'come down and be covered by the mahat-tattva', not as their svarupa body, but rather in a dreaming conscious state called nitya-baddha that can come about due to being marginal, or independent and having the ability to choose. Krsna Himself can never be covered. “From this it may be understood that the jiva-sakti or jiva-tattva is separate from the svarupa-sakti or Vishnu-tattva for the following obvious reasons. Svarupa-sakti or Vishnu-tattva is present AS the Paramatma or Maha-Vishnu - Kshirodakasayi Vishnu.

If the jiva-sakti (marginal living entity) were included within the svarupa-sakti (Vishnu-tattva), then the defect of the jivas (marginal living entities) being overcome by ignorance would be transposed upon the svarupa-sakti (Vishnu-tattva) situated within as Paramatma or (maha-Vishnu - Kshirodakasayi Vishnu) well and ultimately upon the Paramatma Kshirodakasayi Vishnu (Maha-Vishnu) Himself.

Since that is not the case, it is evident that the jiva-sakti (marginal living entity) is not included within svarupa-sakti (Vishnu-tattva's). Consequently, because the jiva-sakti (marginal living entity) is included neither within svarupa-sakti (Vishnu-tattvas) nor within mayasakti (mahat-tattva), it is known as tatastha-sakti (neither part of the superior (Vishnu tattva's) or inferior energy (mahat-tattva or material creation”).

[Beggar]

 

In this way the marginal living entity can 'come down and be covered by the mahat-tattva', not as their svarupa body, but rather in a dreaming conscious state called nitya-baddha that can come about due to being marginal, or independent and having the ability to choose.

No thought is a bad thought - Bhaktivinode Thakur. The above thought comes from the nitya siddha krsna prema verse of Caitanya Caritamrta. But this is just one angle of vision given in the Gaudiya sastras. Opposing angles of vision must be harmonized. If not then we are not followers of acintya bheda-abheda tattva, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's conception of the simultaneous oneness and difference of everything.

[Vigraha]

Some devotees once said in Mayapur that it is too difficult to

understand how we originally feel down from Goloka or Vaikuntha and

the subject is best not discussed. Here is Srila Prabhupada's

response.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult".

 

Acyutananda - "It is not difficult. They don't want to understand".

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Because you are part and parcel of God, God has

got full independence, but you have got little independence,

proportionately, because you are part and parcel".

 

Acyutananda - "But in the Gita, it says, "Once coming there, he never

returns."

 

Srila Prabhupada - "But if he likes, he can return".

 

Acyutananda - "He can return".

 

Srila Prabhupada - "That independence has to be accepted, little

independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha

kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown".Mayapur, India, on

February 19, 1976, Srila Prabhupada

 

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is

very nice,Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is

the meaning of free will?' Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

 

Prabhupada - "originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha.

 

nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti 'sadhya' kabhu naya

zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya

 

Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other,

just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world" Srimad

Bhagavatam Class

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they

only 'think' they are fallen or 'dream' they are fallen but in

perpetual reality one can never fall down". Srimad Bhagavatam class

Japan

 

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha

planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976 Questions to Srila Prabhupadfa of

how we fell down from Goloka, (not as our nitya-siddha body) as our

dreaming nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness

 

Srila Prabhupada - "So as eternal servitors of Krishna-our

constitutional position-we fall down when we try to become the

enjoyer, imitating Krishna. That is our downfall". Letter to

Jananivasa Prabhu, dated August 27, 1967

 

This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or

Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE. The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "This material creation is the spirit soul's dream.

Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu,

as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "This material world is created by the dreaming of

Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when

the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead,

he is put into this dreamland of material creation." Purport to SB.

4.29.83.

[Beggar]

Opposite of the conception that the badha jivas, conditioned souls are already nitya siddha (nitya siddha krsna prema sadhya kabu naya) are statements such as these, quoted on another thread by Guruvani: [Remember everything that Prabhupada writes or says come from a sanskrit or sanskritized Bengali sloka in the Gaudiya sastra and commentaries].

 

The nitya-siddha devotees never fall down. (Bhag. 3.3.26, purp.)

. . . a devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord never falls. (Bhag. 3.15.48, purp.)

In the spiritual world... inhabitants...They're aksara. They do not fall down. Ksara aksara. We are ksaras. We have fallen down in this material world. But there are devotees in the spiritual world, in the Vaikunthaloka, they never come down. Never come down in this material world, but they are also persons like us, but eternal persons, with full knowledge and life of blissfulness. That is the difference between them and us. (741105SB.BOM)

 

Even if we are merely dreaming that we are fallen, that by definition would also qualify as fallen; then such an idea would be a circular argument. Srila Prabhupada explains that are material life is like a dream which is the use of analogy. The extrapolation occurs when drop the word "like" and we assert that we actually are in Goloka dreaming, and that this is the only valid concept. The fallacy of circular reasoning occurs when the conclusion of an argument is essentially the same one as the premises of the argument. The conclusion of the argument is that we are actually in Goloka dreaming that we are in the Material World. This conclusion is based on the premise that that we are actually in Goloka dreaming that we are in the Material World. It is a classic circular argument which is fallacious. The nitya siddha krsna prema verse only gives one aspect of the infinite. The real Gaudiya Siddhanta takes into consideration all aspects of reality. As Srila Sridhar Maharaja says the Krsna conception is the most broad religious conception in the World. It is absurd to pit one part of the philosophy of Krsna Conciousness against another part. Then we find certain persons attacking not only the sadhus that they think oppose their guru, but also ideas found directly in their own guru's books because by false reasoning and predjudice they attribute these conceptions to some sort of anti-party.

By becoming irrationally attached to such fallacious thinking such persons essentially are only bigots, unable to exchange in any kind of genuine diaglogue with those whom they view as there adversaries. Saying that these ideas are from the evil "Gaudiya Math" is like an Nazi anti-Semite saying that the ideas expressed by a certain philosopher have no merit becuse the philosopher happens to be Jewish. When the anti-Semite rationality is challenged his only recourse is to call the person he views as an adversary a "dirty Jew" or a "Jew lover". Such a bigoted and predjudiced view of the World can only occur when one views everthing as black and white or complete duality. But the World is not in black and white, look around you, everything is in shades of gray. Bhayam dvitiya bhinnibhesita syat. The Bhagavatam tells us that fear comes from duality. Fear and hatred go hand and hand, they are both products of such duality. If we view the Krsna Conciousness devoid of Mahaprabhu's conception of acintya bheda[a]bheda tattva, simultaneous oneness and difference of everything (yes, everything -vasudeva sarvam iti) then our conception will become dualistic. It is such dualism that allows persons to wrap themselves in the flag of a particular camp or guru without really understanding the inner teachings. It is the way of the kannistha adhidari, or one who thinks that the Lord only blesses their guru's camp or their country or ideology. Those who have left ISKCON and gone outside to other Gaudiya Saraswat camps are refugees from a bigoted repression where free faith is being choked out by society consciousness; Where loyalty to guru has become a parnoid loyalty oath and anyone who does not say the right thing is a suspected enemy. The problem is that if we are not careful then we can take our self righteous approach anywhere. God save us all from such a fate. There but for the grace of God go I.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Prabhu-dude! You need to use a bigger font when setting us straight. Let me fix that.

****From Beggar***

Opposite of the conception that the badha jivas, conditioned souls are already nitya siddha (nitya siddha krsna prema sadhya kabu naya) are statements such as these, quoted on another thread by Guruvani: [Remember everything that Prabhupada writes or says come from a sanskrit or sanskritized Bengali sloka in the Gaudiya sastra and commentaries].

Even if we are merely dreaming that we are fallen, that by definition would also qualify as fallen; then such an idea would be a circular argument. Srila Prabhupada explains that are material life is like a dream which is the use of analogy. The extrapolation occurs when drop the word "like" and we assert that we actually are in Goloka dreaming, and that this is the only valid concept. The fallacy of circular reasoning occurs when the conclusion of an argument is essentially the same one as the premises of the argument. The conclusion of the argument is that we are actually in Goloka dreaming that we are in the Material World. This conclusion is based on the premise that that we are actually in Goloka dreaming that we are in the Material World. It is a classic circular argument which is fallacious. The nitya siddha krsna prema verse only gives one aspect of the infinite. The real Gaudiya Siddhanta takes into consideration all aspects of reality. As Srila Sridhar Maharaja says the Krsna conception is the most broad religious conception in the World. It is absurd to pit one part of the philosophy of Krsna Conciousness against another part. Then we find certain persons attacking not only the sadhus that they think oppose their guru, but also ideas found directly in their own guru's books because by false reasoning and predjudice they attribute these conceptions to some sort of anti-party.

By becoming irrationally attached to such fallacious thinking such persons essentially are only bigots, unable to exchange in any kind of genuine diaglogue with those whom they view as there adversaries. Saying that these ideas are from the evil "Gaudiya Math" is like an Nazi anti-Semite saying that the ideas expressed by a certain philosopher have no merit becuse the philosopher happens to be Jewish. When the anti-Semite rationality is challenged his only recourse is to call the person he views as an adversary a "dirty Jew" or a "Jew lover". Such a bigoted and predjudiced view of the World can only occur when one views everthing as black and white or complete duality. But the World is not in black and white, look around you, everything is in shades of gray. Bhayam dvitiya bhinnibhesita syat. The Bhagavatam tells us that fear comes from duality. Fear and hatred go hand and hand, they are both products of such duality. If we view the Krsna Conciousness devoid of Mahaprabhu's conception of acintya bheda[a]bheda tattva, simultaneous oneness and difference of everything (yes, everything -vasudeva sarvam iti) then our conception will become dualistic. It is such dualism that allows persons to wrap themselves in the flag of a particular camp or guru without really understanding the inner teachings. It is the way of the kannistha adhidari, or one who thinks that the Lord only blesses their guru's camp or their country or ideology. Those who have left ISKCON and gone outside to other Gaudiya Saraswat camps are refugees from a bigoted repression where free faith is being choked out by society consciousness; Where loyalty to guru has become a parnoid loyalty oath and anyone who does not say the right thing is a suspected enemy. The problem is that if we are not careful then we can take our self righteous approach anywhere. God save us all from such a fate. There but for the grace of God go I.

[Vigraha]

Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only”

 

The occurrence of time only exists in the perishable mahat-tattva due to the phenomenon of past, present and future where as only the present exists in perpetual Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.

Therefore no one says ones svarupa body is sleeping in Goloka, please understand that once and for all. It is only because of the absence of the time factor that there is no disappearance of ones 'svarupa' in Goloka, therefore it is always there serving Krishna regardless. Eventually when one one’s 'dreaming imaginary self or the nitya-baddha consciousness is dissipated, and one has returned to their full spiritual potential and awareness of their nitya-siddha-svarupa body serving Krishna. Once one has returned one realizes themself as the endless nitya-siddha-svarupa-rasa body, ones so called fall down will be as if it never happened. "Never happened" because there is no past tense as we know it in Goloka.

The nitya-baddha 'dreaming’ consciousness aspect of the jiva=tatastha is not moving from one body to the next. Krishna says the soul is immovable in the Gita. The only movement there is is one of nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness and not movement as understood and experienced under the influence of material time and space.

So from ones marginal svarupa body in Goloka- Vrndavana or Vaikuntha, the marginal nitya-baddha may manifest due to ones free will and choice to ‘dream’ in a separated state from their svarupa body that is endlessly serving Krishna however, in absolute reality one is never separated from their nitya-siddha-svarupa body and ones rasa with Krishna.

Factually, due to the eternal 'present’ ones relationships of servitude NEVER interrupted BECAUSE WHEN THE DREAM IS OVER IT WILL BE AS IF THEY NEVER LEFT, Srila Prabhupada says we only dream or think we are fallen, in actual fact we are NEVER fallen and only dream for a moment we are separated from Krishna.

That dream condition of sub-conscious restricted awareness is called the nitya-baddha conscious condition that enters the mahat-tattva to become covered by the illusion of moving between birth & death, heaven and hell, past & future where that ‘moment’ for the nitya-siddha can be trillions upon trillions of years to the nitya-baddha condition of consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada- Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centred choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming.

Our perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa Krishna Conscious body does not fall and can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

We can simply choose to do what we desire or imagine because that is the freedom all marginal living entities are endowed with. In this way any marginal living entity in Goloka or Vaikuntha have the propensity to knowingly turn their back on Krishna and the perpetual body they eternally serve Krishna as. Even though most marginal living entities (75%) never ever fall down 'consciously' from Goloka, they still have that choice to pursue their non-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts if they want.

It is there within that mahat-tattva cloud cover, the projected secondary consciousness, emanating from ones original perpetual body, which can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, becomes contained in ethereal and biological vessels in a phenomenon of time and space (past, present, future, decay and impermanence) that does not exist in the perpetual Spiritual Sky surrounding the mahat-tattva. Such temporary ethereal and biological bodies are provided by the presiding Deity of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu and guided (constantly tempted through the mahat-tattva by Maya-Devs’ s’akti, the wife of Maha-Vishnu.

The mahat-tattva cloud is a real manifestation like the other three quarters of creation or Spiritual Sky however, unlike the perpetual Spiritual Sky; the mahat-tattva or ‘cloud of the dreaming’ is temporary.

In other words the mahat-tattva is simply the place where the marginal living entities go when they choose to have their ‘moment’ of non-Krishna conscious dreaming however that ‘moment’ can appear to be trillions of years, then on return to ones rasa body, it will be as if they never left.

There is no beginning or end to the creation so in the face of eternity, time has no meaning because no one can measure something that has no beginning or end like all marginal living entities or nitya-siddha-svarupa devotee’s that are said to be emanating from Lord Krishna’s transcendental Vigraha body but have factually always exited without beginning as the Bhagavad Gita as it is tells us. All jiva-tatastha ‘souls’ therefore are never created nor do they EVER appear from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti as A PLANE SHEET OF CONSCIOUSNESS as some learned Vaishnava scholars, gurus and sanyasi’s believe.

EVERY living marginal entity OR JIVA-TATASTHA has a perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body that they have always been for eternity without beginning and without end. Most of the Vedas therefore are dealing with the nitya-baddha secondary aspect of the jiva-tatastha, seeing everything from the viewpoint of that secondary nitya-baddha consciousness and not from their nitya-siddha perpetual body that they have forgotten.

In other words, modern day 21st century Vaishnavism are seeing everything from the viewpoint of the nitya-baddha consciousness that is given ethereal and biological bodies or vessels by Maha-Vishnu. In this way, the description of sparks in the effulgence or a particle or atom in a ray of light is correctly describing the nitya-baddha conscious aspect of the jiva-tatastha covered by the inferior energy (the mahat-tattva) and the nitya-baddha consciousness (the lower secondary characteristic of the marginal living entity dreaming in a dreamless state in the surrounding impersonal portion of the Brahmajyoti that only CONSCIOUSLY’ separates Vaikuntha (Superior energy) from the maha-tattva (inferior energy).

The fact is 100%, or ALL of the marginal living entities or jiva-tatastha are eternally in their original position as nitya-siddha devotee of whom some (UP TO 25%) are simultaneously 'DREAMING’ in the mahat-tattva as a bodiless conscious projection that is provided ethereal and biological material vessels by Maha-Vishnu.

[cbrahma]

 

Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only”

 

The occurrence of time only exists in the perishable mahat-tattva due to the phenomenon of past, present and future where as only the present exists in perpetual Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.

Therefore no one says ones svarupa body is sleeping in Goloka, please understand that once and for all. It is only because of the absence of the time factor that there is no disappearance of ones 'svarupa' in Goloka, therefore it is always there serving Krishna regardless. Eventually when one one’s 'dreaming imaginary self or the nitya-baddha consciousness is dissipated, and one has returned to their full spiritual potential and awareness of their nitya-siddha-svarupa body serving Krishna. Once one has returned one realizes themself as the endless nitya-siddha-svarupa-rasa body, ones so called fall down will be as if it never happened. "Never happened" because there is no past tense as we know it in Goloka.

The jiva-tattva, tatastha or the lower nitya-baddha 'dreaming’ consciousness aspect of the soul is not moving from one body to the next. Krishna says the soul is immovable in the Gita. The only movement there is is one of nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness and not movement as understood and experienced under the influence of material time and space.

So from ones marginal svarupa body in Goloka- Vrndavana or Vaikuntha, the marginal nitya-baddha may manifest due to ones free will and choice to ‘dream’ in a separated state from their svarupa body that is endlessly serving Krishna however, in absolute reality one is never separated from their nitya-siddha-svarupa body and ones rasa with Krishna.

Factually, due to the eternal 'present’ ones relationships of servitude NEVER interrupted BECAUSE WHEN THE DREAM IS OVER IT WILL BE AS IF THEY NEVER LEFT, Srila Prabhupada says we only dream or think we are fallen, in actual fact we are NEVER fallen and only dream for a moment we are separated from Krishna.

That dream condition of sub-conscious restricted awareness is called the nitya-baddha conscious condition that enters the mahat-tattva to become covered by the illusion of moving between birth & death, heaven and hell, past & future where that ‘moment’ for the nitya-siddha can be trillions upon trillions of years to the nitya-baddha condition of consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada- Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centred choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming.

Our perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa Krishna Conscious body does not fall and can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

We can simply choose to do what we desire or imagine because that is the freedom all marginal living entities are endowed with. In this way any marginal living entity in Goloka or Vaikuntha have the propensity to knowingly turn their back on Krishna and the perpetual body they eternally serve Krishna as. Even though most marginal living entities (75%) never ever fall down 'consciously' from Goloka, they still have that choice to pursue their non-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts if they want.

It is there within that mahat-tattva cloud cover, the projected secondary consciousness, emanating from ones original perpetual body, which can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, becomes contained in ethereal and biological vessels in a phenomenon of time and space (past, present, future, decay and impermanence) that does not exist in the perpetual Spiritual Sky surrounding the mahat-tattva. Such temporary ethereal and biological bodies are provided by the presiding Deity of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu and guided (constantly tempted through the mahat-tattva by Maya-Devs’ s’akti, the wife of Maha-Vishnu.

The mahat-tattva cloud is a real manifestation like the other three quarters of creation or Spiritual Sky however, unlike the perpetual Spiritual Sky; the mahat-tattva or ‘cloud of the dreaming’ is temporary.

In other words the mahat-tattva is simply the place where the marginal living entities go when they choose to have their ‘moment’ of non-Krishna conscious dreaming however that ‘moment’ can appear to be trillions of years, then on return to ones rasa body, it will be as if they never left.

There is no beginning or end to the creation so in the face of eternity, time has no meaning because no one can measure something that has no beginning or end like all marginal living entities or nitya-siddha-svarupa devotee’s that are said to be emanating from Lord Krishna’s transcendental Vigraha body but have factually always exited without beginning as the Bhagavad Gita as it is tells us. All jiva-tatastha ‘souls’ therefore are never created nor do they EVER appear from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti as A PLANE SHEET OF CONSCIOUSNESS as some learned Vaishnava scholars, gurus and sanyasi’s believe.

EVERY living marginal entity OR JIVA-TATASTHA has a perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body that they have always been for eternity without beginning and without end. Most of the Vedas therefore are dealing with the nitya-baddha secondary aspect of the jiva-tatastha, seeing everything from the viewpoint of that secondary nitya-baddha consciousness and not from their nitya-siddha perpetual body that they have forgotten.

In other words, modern day 21st century Vaishnavism are seeing everything from the viewpoint of the nitya-baddha consciousness that is given ethereal and biological bodies or vessels by Maha-Vishnu. In this way, the description of sparks in the effulgence or a particle or atom in a ray of light is correctly describing the nitya-baddha conscious aspect of the jiva-tatastha covered by the inferior energy (the mahat-tattva) and the nitya-baddha consciousness (the lower secondary characteristic of the marginal living entity dreaming in a dreamless state in the surrounding impersonal portion of the Brahmajyoti that only CONSCIOUSLY’ separates Vaikuntha (Superior energy) from the maha-tattva (inferior energy).

The fact is 100%, or ALL of the marginal living entities or jiva-tatastha are eternally in their original position as nitya-siddha devotee of whom some (UP TO 25%) are simultaneously 'DREAMING’ in the mahat-tattva as a bodiless conscious projection that is provided ethereal and biological material vessels by Maha-Vishnu.

This makes more sense than falling directly from the brahmajyoti. All jivas fall down from the brahmajyoti eventually. It doesn't explain how some jivas end up in Goloka in their swarupa.

Just the luck of the draw?

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

 

However, there is no shastric support for this fairytale.

If anyone can support it with the teachings of Mahaprabhu or his direct disciples then please show it.

 

Otherwise, all we can do is accept it as some fairytale preaching to neophyte western people that Srila Prabhupada was trying to nurture along with fables and stories.

 

Anyway, there is more than one way to understand this statement.

Because originally we were with Krishna in his lila or sport as a spark of light in his effulgence.

 

It doesn't mean that we were playing with Krishna in his lila or sport.

It means that we were integrated as a spirit spark in the effulgence of Krishna as he engaged in his lila or sport of creating the material world.

 

Being "WITH" Krishna is not the same as PLAYING with Krishna.

 

Sure, we were spirit sparks with Krishna in his form of Maha-Vishnu in his lila or sport of material creation and expansion of his tatastha-shakti.

 

Otherwise, this means that we fell from Vaikuntha and we know that Srila Prabhupada rejects that idea in his books.

 

The lila or sport Srila Prabhupada must be referring to is the lila of material creation.

Otherwise he is contradicting himself where he says several times in his books that no one falls from Vaikuntha.

[Beggar]

 

This makes more sense than falling directly from the brahmajyoti. All jivas fall down from the brahmajyoti eventually. It doesn't explain how some jivas end up in Goloka in their swarupa.

Just the luck of the draw?

Srila Bhaktirakshaka Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaja:

 

Generally, souls emanate from the brahmajyoti which is living and growing. Within the brahmajyoti, their equilibrium is somehow disturbed and movement begins. From nondifferentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication.

 

A Short Presentation on Jiva-tattva By Swami B. B. Visnu,

 

Proponents of the "Fall Theory" like to equate statements such as "forgetting Krsna" as synonomous with the assumption that we were with Krsna in the spiritual world and forgot Him. Srila Prabhupada however dispelled this misunderstanding in a letter to Jagadisa Dasa in 1970:

Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature?

Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called

susupti

which is exactly like deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs.

The understanding that is presented here very clearly by Srila Prabhupada is much different than that interpreted by some–that we were all originally with the Lord in His lila in the spiritual world. In the purport of this famous Bhag. 11.2.37, krsna bhuli verse (alsoCc. Madhya-lila 20.117) Srila Prabhupada explains the text of this verse, translated as "Forgetting Krsna" as meaning

When the living entity forgets his constitutional position as an eternal servant of Krsna.

Furthermore, the statements presented above of Srila Prabhupada and other acaryas, directly refuting the fall hypothesis are completely ignored by proponents of this hypothesis without any attempt to reconcile them. Therefore the burden of proof lies with those proposing this fall theory.

Additional references are available at:

 

 

 

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/jiva/jiva_1.html

 

 

 

 

 

[Beggar]

Previously in Post #259 I wrote,

 

Even if we are merely dreaming that we are fallen, that by definition would also qualify as fallen; then such an idea would be a circular argument. Srila Prabhupada explains that are material life is like a dream which is the use of analogy. The extrapolation occurs when drop the word "like" and we assert that we actually are in Goloka dreaming, and that this is the only valid concept. The fallacy of circular reasoning occurs when the conclusion of an argument is essentially the same one as the premises of the argument. The conclusion of the argument is that we are actually in Goloka dreaming that we are in the Material World. This conclusion is based on the premise that that we are actually in Goloka dreaming that we are in the Material World. It is a classic circular argument which is fallacious. The nitya siddha krsna prema verse only gives one aspect of the infinite. The real Gaudiya Siddhanta takes into consideration all aspects of reality. As Srila Sridhar Maharaja says the Krsna conception is the most broad religious conception in the World.

Visnu Maharaja also points out in his article,

 

All evidence given by all Gaudiya Vaishnava acaryas, sastra, and Vaishnava publications directly states that we do not fall from the spiritual world [either Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana]. When the primary meaning of evidence is clear and coherent there is no necessity to interpret it, as stated by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, "For each sutra the direct meaning must be accepted without interpretation. However, you simply abandon the direct meaning and proceed with your imaginative interpretation. Although there is other evidence, the evidence given in the Vedic version must be taken as foremost. Vedic versions understood directly are first-class evidence." (Cc. Madhya-lila 6.134-5, texts)

Statements taken as indicating that the origin of all living entities in this material world is by falling from the Lord's lila are obtained thru misinterpretation of secondary indirect statements and not primary direct statements. According to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, one must consider direct first hand evidence rather than subsidiary indirect statements interpreted according to one's necessity. To introduce ambiguous statements and interpret them distorts the clear meaning of the primary evidence further. The Our Original Position book (OOP's) clouds the issue by presenting inconclusive arguments without answering the many contradictions pointed out in this presentation.

Sarvabhauma Battacarya tried to defeat Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu with many false arguments: "The word

vitanda

indicates that a debater, not touching the main point or establishing his own point, simply tries to refute the other person's argument. When one does not touch the direct meaning but tries to divert attention by misinterpretation, he engages in

chala.

" (

Cc. Madhya-lila

6.176, purp.)

[Shakti-Fan]

Yestrerday on "The concept of "Back to Godhead" thread there was a personal attack by Swaupa or Sarva gatah on "Gaudiya Math gurus". Then on this thread Beggar wrote:

 

Opposite of the conception that the badha jivas, conditioned souls are already nitya siddha (nitya siddha krsna prema sadhya kabu naya) are statements such as these, quoted on another thread by Guruvani: [Remember everything that Prabhupada writes or says come from a sanskrit or sanskritized Bengali sloka in the Gaudiya sastra and commentaries].

Even if we are merely dreaming that we are fallen, that by definition would also qualify as fallen; then such an idea would be a circular argument. Srila Prabhupada explains that are material life is like a dream which is the use of analogy. The extrapolation occurs when drop the word "like" and we assert that we actually are in Goloka dreaming, and that this is the only valid concept. The fallacy of circular reasoning occurs when the conclusion of an argument is essentially the same one as the premises of the argument. The conclusion of the argument is that we are actually in Goloka dreaming that we are in the Material World. This conclusion is based on the premise that that we are actually in Goloka dreaming that we are in the Material World. It is a classic circular argument which is fallacious. The nitya siddha krsna prema verse only gives one aspect of the infinite. The real Gaudiya Siddhanta takes into consideration all aspects of reality. As Srila Sridhar Maharaja says the Krsna conception is the most broad religious conception in the World. It is absurd to pit one part of the philosophy of Krsna Conciousness against another part. Then we find certain persons attacking not only the sadhus that they think oppose their guru, but also ideas found directly in their own guru's books because by false reasoning and predjudice they attribute these conceptions to some sort of anti-party.

By becoming irrationally attached to such fallacious thinking such persons essentially are only bigots, unable to exchange in any kind of genuine diaglogue with those whom they view as there adversaries. Saying that these ideas are from the evil "Gaudiya Math" is like an Nazi anti-Semite saying that the ideas expressed by a certain philosopher have no merit becuse the philosopher happens to be Jewish. When the anti-Semite rationality is challenged his only recourse is to call the person he views as an adversary a "dirty Jew" or a "Jew lover". Such a bigoted and predjudiced view of the World can only occur when one views everthing as black and white or complete duality. But the World is not in black and white, look around you, everything is in shades of gray. Bhayam dvitiya bhinnibhesita syat. The Bhagavatam tells us that fear comes from duality. Fear and hatred go hand and hand, they are both products of such duality. If we view the Krsna Conciousness devoid of Mahaprabhu's conception of acintya bheda[a]bheda tattva, simultaneous oneness and difference of everything (yes, everything -vasudeva sarvam iti) then our conception will become dualistic. It is such dualism that allows persons to wrap themselves in the flag of a particular camp or guru without really understanding the inner teachings. It is the way of the kannistha adhidari, or one who thinks that the Lord only blesses their guru's camp or their country or ideology. Those who have left ISKCON and gone outside to other Gaudiya Saraswat camps are refugees from a bigoted repression where free faith is being choked out by society consciousness; Where loyalty to guru has become a parnoid loyalty oath and anyone who does not say the right thing is a suspected enemy. The problem is that if we are not careful then we can take our self righteous approach anywhere. God save us all from such a fate. There but for the grace of God go I.

Evidently Muralimohan Prabhu appreciated what Beggar wrote and I do also find his analysis very interesting even if it isn't perfect. It's clear that the opposition doesn't read other's posts very carefully, but now I'm wondering if hardly anyone is reading and able to take in new information. New thoughts and information are coming, but we just seem to be going around in circles here.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

New thoughts and information are coming, but we just seem to be going around in circles here.

 

"And the seasons they go round and round

And the painted ponies go up and down

Were captive on the carousel of time

We cant return, we can only look behind

From where we came

And go round and round and round

In the circle game"

--Joni Mitchell

[Vigraha]

 

This makes more sense than falling directly from the brahmajyoti. All jivas fall down from the brahmajyoti eventually. It doesn't explain how some jivas end up in Goloka in their swarupa.

Just the luck of the draw?

 

The Answer to your question is the ‘svarupa bodily identity’ of the marginal living always exists without any beginning or end. Those of us trapped in the material world in our secondary conscious state can only revive the memory (service) of what already exists because one is originally and perpetually nitya siddha eternally as Srila Prabhupada explains to us. He further explains we only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are fallen but in actual fact our ‘svarupa’ bodily identity is never fallen.

 

Question - Are we dreaming the material world that is a real but a temporary phenomenon?

 

Answer - The marginal living entity or jiva tatastha always has access to a twofold reality because of their marginal stastus that gives them the free will to choose, one as who they really are as their ‘svarupa bodily form’ that is there eternal nitya-siddha bodily identity that is always Krishna Conscious, and the other is their dreaming secondary consciousness called nitya-baddha, yet can only exist in a temporary changing atmosphere devoid of any bodily form, until one is provided one within the unpreserved maha-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu?

 

It is hard for us judge how Krishna gives out his causeless mercy and realizations to His dear devotees? Just because we may not understand that technically we are always with Krishna and presently we are only ‘dreaming’ or ‘thinking” we are not with Him, does not mean other devotees do understand this and have actually realized this truth of Krishna’s creation. Just because other cannot understand this, do we believe their misconceptions that we have originated from the Impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyoti?

 

Bhakti yoga or loving devotion to Lord Krishna and His dear devotees is not based on jnana (knowledge) or imitation; it is purely based on the simplistic teaching of Lord Chaitanya and the congregational chanting of the Hare Krishna Maha Mantra meant to deliver us back home back to Godhead – from whence we originally came from.

 

The introduction of the Bhagavad-Gita as it is tells us

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position”

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

All this chatter, and not one person from the "fall from Goloka" camp has attempted to answer the question below. It seems like such a simple question. It should be easy to answer.

 

How is it useful to think that we are nitya-siddha?

 

What is the mood shown by the great Vaishnavas?

 

 

That may be, but I've yet to get an answer to my question. It seem like such a simple one.

 

How is it useful in our spiritual life to think that we are nitya-siddha?

 

If it is *not* useful, then why are we bothering to contemplate this?

[Vigraha]

 

 

Letter to: Jagadisa : 70-04-25 Los Angeles AS IT IS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hare Krsna, the letter is divided in two parts with two question:

 

First Question:

 

"Letter to: Jagadisa : 70-04-25 Los Angeles

Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence. But those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to Krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down."

No comment and has no interpretation is very clear Srila Prabhupada. You accept the words of the self effulgent acharya or not, easy.

 

 

Good observation and well explained -

 

Even though most marginal living entities (75%) never ever fall down 'consciously' from Goloka, they still have that choice to pursue their non-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts if they want, but choose NEVER to leave their service within the pastimes of Lord Krishna however, 25% do make that foolish choice and therefore 'think' or 'dream' they are fallen and 'sub-consciously' (as nitya-baddha) enter the mahat-tattva.

 

It is there within that mahat-tattva cloud cover, the projected secondary consciousness, emanating from ones original perpetual body, which can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, becomes contained in ethereal and biological vessels in a phenomenon of time and space (past, present, future, decay and impermanence) that does not exist in the perpetual Spiritual Sky surrounding the mahat-tattva. Such temporary ethereal and biological bodies are provided by the presiding Deity of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu and guided (constantly tempted through the mahat-tattva by Maya-Devs’ s’akti, the wife of Maha-Vishnu.

 

The mahat-tattva cloud is a real manifestation like the other three quarters of creation or Spiritual Sky however, unlike the perpetual Spiritual Sky; the mahat-tattva or ‘cloud of the dreaming’ is temporary.

 

In other words the mahat-tattva is simply the place where the marginal living entities go when they choose to have their ‘moment’ of non-Krishna conscious dreaming however that ‘moment’ can appear to be trillions of years, then on return to ones rasa body, it will be as if they never left.

 

There is no beginning or end to the creation so in the face of eternity, time has no meaning because no one can measure something that has no beginning or end like all marginal living entities or nitya-siddha-svarupa devotee’s that are said to be emanating from Lord Krishna’s transcendental Vigraha body but have factually always exited without beginning as the Bhagavad Gita as it is tells us.

 

All jiva-tatastha ‘souls’ therefore are never created nor do they EVER appear from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti as A PLANE SHEET OF CONSCIOUSNESS as some learned Vaishnava scholars, gurus and sanyasi’s believe.

 

EVERY living marginal entity OR JIVA-TATASTHA has a perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body that the jiva-soul has always been in the perpetual 'present' in Goloka for eternity without beginning and without end.

 

Most of the Vedas therefore are dealing with the nitya-baddha secondary aspect of the jiva-tatastha, that is the conditional state of the living entity in the material world (dream) All of us are presently seeing our existence from the viewpoint of that secondary nitya-baddha consciousness and NOT from our Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha 'svarupa; perpetual body that we have all forgotten.

 

Srila Prabhupada “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that I have nothing to do with this material world and that I am simply Krishna’s servant.- Eternal servant., we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this situation” lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

All this chatter, and not one person from the "fall from Goloka" camp has attempted to answer the question below. It seems like such a simple question. It should be easy to answer.

 

How is it useful to think that we are nitya-siddha?

 

What is the mood shown by the great Vaishnavas?

[cbrahma]

 

All this chatter, and not one person from the "fall from Goloka" camp has attempted to answer the question below. It seems like such a simple question. It should be easy to answer.

 

How is it useful to think that we are nitya-siddha?

 

What is the mood shown by the great Vaishnavas?

As far as I know the Vedas don't espouse a pragmatic theory of truth - that is usefulness is not the criterion of whether something is true of false.

Certainly arguing this issue endlessly does not help anybody on his/her spiritual path. - quite simply - useless.

[cbrahma]

 

The Answer to your question is the ‘svarupa bodily identity’ of the marginal living always exists without any beginning or end. Those of us trapped in the material world in our secondary conscious state can only revive the memory (service) of what already exists because one is originally and perpetually nitya siddha eternally as Srila Prabhupada explains to us. He further explains we only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are fallen but in actual fact our ‘svarupa’ bodily identity is never fallen.

 

Question - Are we dreaming the material world that is a real but a temporary phenomenon?

 

Answer - The marginal living entity or jiva tatastha always has access to a twofold reality because of their marginal stastus that gives them the free will to choose, one as who they really are as their ‘svarupa bodily form’ that is there eternal nitya-siddha bodily identity that is always Krishna Conscious, and the other is their dreaming secondary consciousness called nitya-baddha, yet can only exist in a temporary changing atmosphere devoid of any bodily form, until one is provided one within the unpreserved maha-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu?

 

It is hard for us judge how Krishna gives out his causeless mercy and realizations to His dear devotees? Just because we may not understand that technically we are always with Krishna and presently we are only ‘dreaming’ or ‘thinking” we are not with Him, does not mean other devotees do understand this and have actually realized this truth of Krishna’s creation. Just because other cannot understand this, do we believe their misconceptions that we have originated from the Impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyoti?

 

Bhakti yoga or loving devotion to Lord Krishna and His dear devotees is not based on jnana (knowledge) or imitation; it is purely based on the simplistic teaching of Lord Chaitanya and the congregational chanting of the Hare Krishna Maha Mantra meant to deliver us back home back to Godhead – from whence we originally came from.

 

The introduction of the Bhagavad-Gita as it is tells us

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position”

 

Oh yes. That really clears it up.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

As far as I know the Vedas don't espouse a pragmatic theory of truth - that is usefulness is not the criterion of whether something is true of false.

Certainly arguing this issue endlessly does not help anybody on his/her spiritual path. - quite simply - useless.

 

Perhaps the Vedas do not, I don't know.

 

What seems pretty clear from my reading of some of Srila Sridhar Maharaja's books is that the Goswamis, in presenting the path of sadhana-bhakti have most *certainly* made a distinction between what is useful and what is not.

 

Despite the fact that everything is Krishna or Krishna's energy, isn't it said that we should accept that which is favorable for our spiritual development and reject that which is unfavorable?

 

Based on the way they present themselves here and blashpheme the Vaishnavas, it seems abundantly clear that the "fall from Goloka" notion has *not* been favorable for those who so dearly cling to it.

[Vigraha]

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"Letter to: Jagadisa : 70-04-25 Los Angeles

Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature? Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs. I hope this will satisfy your questions."

Pay very attention to the question Jagadisa is asking if the conditioned soul has ever seen Krsna, the conditioned soul!! not the liberated soul!!! (is obvious that the liberated soul has seen and see Krsna). So Srila Prabhupada replied Him yes. Just before the conditioned soul get conditioned we have seen Krsna in his Mahavishnu form and He injected us in the mahat tattva as a father inject the soul in the womb of the mother also this mean that the conditioned soul has the chance to see Mahavishnu when He enter Him after the aniquilation of the universe and enter in the susupti state.

so when we are in our original liberated state we can see Lord Krsna face to face and we are in his lilas (First question above), and when we are conditioned we can see Lord Krsna as Mahavishnu (NOT in Krsnaloka or vaikhunta) before entering and after leaving the destroyed universes in his maha vishnu form otherwise we can't see lord Krsna (In Goloka or Vaikhunta) in the conditioned state only if He descends but this is not the line of the question.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Correct however Srila Prabhupada further says that even before that we were all with Krishna. There are some who are suggesting our original position comes <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:PersonName>from</st1:PersonName> an impersonal beginning if we are not all originally nitya-siddha? Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we originated from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or from a plane sheet dreamless consciousness. If we believe this way then we are no better than Mayavardis or Impersonalists.

 

We also certainly did not originate from Maha-Vishnu, it is only our secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that takes shelter within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and subsequently merges into His body at the end of each of His material creations, remaining dormant until the next creation of the maha-tattva. (that is if they desire to continue their 'dream' that denies their real perpetual nitya-siddha bodily identity in Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in His Lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami 1972 <st1:country-region><st1:place>Australia</st1:place></st1:country-region>

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down <st1:PersonName>from</st1:PersonName> Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami 1972 <st1:country-region><st1:place>Australia</st1:place></st1:country-region>

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, <st1:date Month="12" Day="7" Year="1974">December 7, 1974</st1:date>, <st1:City><st1:place>Bombay</st1:place></st1:City>

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter <st1:PersonName>from</st1:PersonName> Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in <st1:country-region><st1:place>Australia</st1:place></st1:country-region>

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls <st1:PersonName>from</st1:PersonName> the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go (nitya-baddha consciousness). It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

Svarupa Damodara - “The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material”.

Srila Prabhupada - “He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies.” .Svarupa Damodara wedsite

Srila Prabhupada - “The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

Srila Prabhupada – ‘This ordinary living being is of two kinds — nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.’ SB 5.11.12 Purport

Then Srila Prabhupada explains how we are ALL are originally nitya siddha

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, (NITYA-BADDHA) but as soon as we surrender to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> do we then become eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, <st1:PersonName>from</st1:PersonName> time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

Srila Prabhupada - “This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad by Srila Prabhupada Part Two

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, <st1:date Month="2" Day="18" Year="1977">February 18, 1977</st1:date>

Srila Prabhupada -“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many who wrongly believe that the jiva-soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will, therefore their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is obviously impersonal and therefore dangerous. Such sects do not understand the correct PERSONAL teaching of the Vedas given to us by Jagat Guru His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.