Fall theory is worse than Mayavada says Narasingha Maharaja

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Still no answer? Just more copy and paste? I can copy and paste also.

 

 

All this chatter, and not one person from the "fall from Goloka" camp has attempted to answer the question below. It seems like such a simple question. It should be easy to answer.

 

How is it useful to think that we are nitya-siddha?

 

What is the mood shown by the great Vaishnavas?

[cbrahma]

 

Perhaps the Vedas do not, I don't know.

 

What seems pretty clear from my reading of some of Srila Sridhar Maharaja's books is that the Goswamis, in presenting the path of sadhana-bhakti have most *certainly* made a distinction between what is useful and what is not.

 

Despite the fact that everything is Krishna or Krishna's energy, isn't it said that we should accept that which is favorable for our spiritual development and reject that which is unfavorable?

 

Based on the way they present themselves here and blashpheme the Vaishnavas, it seems abundantly clear that the "fall from Goloka" notion has *not* been favorable for those who so dearly cling to it.

The blaspheming has been nicely distributed on either side.

But issues of usefulness and truth claims are differnt unless you to pragmatism. Vedanta is not pragmatic otherwise the Absolute Truth would have no meaning. (All truth being relative to utility).

[Vigraha]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Murali_Mohan_das

All this chatter, and not one person from the "fall from Goloka" camp has attempted to answer the question below. It seems like such a simple question. It should be easy to answer.

How is it useful to think that we are nitya-siddha?

What is the mood shown by the great Vaishnavas?

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

It is not a question of thinking we are nitya siddha prabhu because perpetually (way beyond the concept of originally) we ARE ALL nitya siddha Krishna Conscious devotees of the Lord but presently 'think' 'imagine' and 'dream' we are not who we really are (nitya-siddha). Our eternal 'svarupa body' is our real genuin identity in the 'eternal present' that only exists in Goloka and Vaikuntha. This is not really that difficult to understand.

[theist]

 

Srila Prabhupada - “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. At any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, actually we are not fallen at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that I have nothing to do with this material world and that I am simply Krishna’s servant. Lecture Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

 

14 pages of controversy. Prabhupada has made the situation abundantly clear in the above two sentences.

[suchandra]

 

14 pages of controversy. Prabhupada has made the situation abundantly clear in the above two sentences.

Looks rather like we have to learn to live in a Vaishnava world full of controversy.

 

 

 

 

 

Eight Prayers in Separation From My Spiritual Master

Third Octet

A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

1) You instructed everyone you met

to chant the holy name of Lord Krsna.

You showed the example of continually reciting

the maha-mantra into their ears.

 

2) You empowered everyone with the qualification

to further distribute that holy name

But now, by the influence of Maya,

there is only darkness on all sides.

 

3) The souls who are truly attached to worshiping the Lord

always sing and dance in joyful sankirtana.

Following in the footsteps of their spiritual master,

they deliver the whole world.

 

4) But those who have no such qualification perform nirjana bhajana

or so-called confidential worship in a solitary place.

Thus acting whimsically, all of them actually remain absorbed

in personal sense gratification.

 

5) [As stated in the Srimad Bhagavatam 10,33,30]:

"An ordinary soul should never imitate the activities

of the Supreme Lord, even in his mind."

According to these instructions in devotional service,

the unqualified imitators are ruined.

 

6) You preached "utility is the principle"-

that is, one should act without attachment

and use anything that is deemed appropriate

in the devotional service of the Lord.

 

7) In such detached devotional service to Lord Krsna

there would be a temple established in every house

But now just the opposite situation

is apparent everywhere.

 

8) O Srila Prabhupada! You personally suffer

to see the suffering

of the fallen conditioned souls.

On this day of your separation

I am utterly despondent.

</pre>

 

 

[Guruvani]

 

14 pages of controversy. Prabhupada has made the situation abundantly clear in the above two sentences.

 

The brahmajyoti is in the spiritual sky so that quote really makes nothing abundantly clear because the brahmajyoti is in the spiritual sky.

 

The liberated devotees are not in the spiritual sky, they are on the spiritual planets.

The brahmajyoti is in the spiritual sky, not the pure devotees of Goloka.

They are not in the SKY.

They are on the ground of Goloka not in the spiritual sky like the brahmajyoti is.

[Guruvani]

The fall-from-goloka or the sleepervadi theory cannot be true because Srila Prabhupada made it clear in his his books that no one falls from the Vaikuntha planets.

 

There is NO getting around it.

Srila Prabhupada has explicitly said that liberated pure devotees who are nitya-siddhas NEVER fall down or fall into illusion as the sleepervadi theory proposes.

 

That is it.

Srila Prabhupada says no one falls from the Vaikuntha planets.

 

All the attempts to try and prove that they do is simply an attempt to undermine the teachings of Srila Prabhupada and establish some new sleepervadi theory that defies shastra.

 

No one falls from Vaikuntha.

The sleepervadi idea would also be a fall down so it cannot be true.

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Prabhupada - “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. At any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, actually we are not fallen at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that I have nothing to do with this material world and that I am simply Krishna’s servant. Lecture Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

 

14 pages of controversy. Prabhupada has made the situation abundantly clear in the above two sentences.

No so fast.

Here is what Srila Prabhupada says about the spiritual SKY in the introduction to Bhagavad-gita.

 

 

the Lord states that in the eternal sky there is no need for the sun nor for the moon nor electricity or fire of any kind because the spiritual sky is already illuminated by the brahmajyoti, the rays emanating from the Supreme Lord.

 

 

One who desires to merge into the existence of the Supreme Brahman is at once transferred to the brahmajyoti of the Supreme Lord and thus attains the spiritual sky.

So, it seems quite obvious Srila Prabhupada is referring to our origins in the brahmajyoti of Krishna.

[theist]

 

What does the word revive mean?

 

Accept it or not. That is what he is teaching. I have realized nothing personally but I am not going to change his words or contort the obvious meaning of his words just to fit my ignorance.

[Guruvani]

 

The abode of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, Fifteenth Chapter, sixth verse:

 

 

na tad bhāsayate sūryo

na śaśāńko na pāvakaḥ

yad gatvā na nivartante

tad dhāma paramaḿ mama

 

"That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world."

 

 

Those who reach the supreme abode of Vaikuntha NEVER return to the material world.

 

So, what about FREE-WILL?

What about marginal energy?

 

If the jiva still has free will and is marginal energy then some of them surely must be falling down.

 

But, Lord Krishna says they NEVER return to the material world.

 

So, there must be some prefection of free will and some transcending of the marginal existence for a jiva to be so infallible.

[Guruvani]

 

 

What does the word revive mean?

 

Accept it or not. That is what he is teaching. I have realized nothing personally but I am not going to change his words or contort the obvious meaning of his words just to fit my ignorance.

Can you explain that with original Sanskrit verses beyond the fairytales that Srila Prabhupada nurtured the brain-dead hippie disciples with?

 

I am sorry but Srila Prabhupada contradicts himself too many times for me to just accept anything that doesn't have shastric support.

 

At some point in our study of the shastra we have to start weeding out the fairytale from the siddhanta and get beyond confusion.

 

As long as we don't see the fairytale for what it is we are left with nothing except to say that Srila Prabhupada had contradicted himself many times in his teachings.

 

There is nothing to revive except our position as spirit sparks in the brahmajyoti.

 

Well, we have to revive that and then progress beyond that to devotional service to Krishna.

 

Reviving what we had is just the beginning.

We must go way past revival to attain the highest perfection.

[mahak]

there is nothing to revive in brahmajyoti. There is no consciousness, either. Consciousness necessitates form, rupa. We are full of form, there is no form in brahmajyoti.

 

The buddhist is lying while saying that a boddhisattwa feels compassion while in brahmajyoti, because there is no feeling, no existance. Existance necessitates rupa, and svarupa is our original form.

 

When creation takes place again, sparks from the brahmajyoti get form, and have a chance as long as they dont get stuck in non-existential brahmajyoti again. This is why hedonism is preferrable to a sane person over mayavada and buddhist atheism.. Better to be in hell with form that in a place where one has no existance. This is why the vaisnava considers such liberation as suicide, because there is no self, therefore, no love, no happuiness, no name, no form, no pastimes. Black or white light is of no consequence, live at the point of atomic reaction or live in a black hole, no life. No attraction.

 

Sorry, you are wrong, guruvani, not because I say you are wrong, but because you are.

 

mahak

[Guruvani]

 

there is nothing to revive in brahmajyoti. There is no consciousness, either. Consciousness necessitates form, rupa. We are full of form, there is no form in brahmajyoti.

 

The buddhist is lying while saying that a boddhisattwa feels compassion while in brahmajyoti, because there is no feeling, no existance. Existance necessitates rupa, and svarupa is our original form.

 

When creation takes place again, sparks from the brahmajyoti get form, and have a chance as long as they dont get stuck in non-existential brahmajyoti again. This is why hedonism is preferrable to a sane person over mayavada and buddhist atheism.. Better to be in hell with form that in a place where one has no existance. This is why the vaisnava considers such liberation as suicide, because there is no self, therefore, no love, no happuiness, no name, no form, no pastimes. Black or white light is of no consequence, live at the point of atomic reaction or live in a black hole, no life. No attraction.

 

Sorry, you are wrong, guruvani, not because I say you are wrong, but because you are.

 

mahak

 

Then I guess you take issue with Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur who says that originally the jiva is in shanta-rasa without any service to Krishna?

 

In the second chapter of his book "Brahmana and Vaisnava" entitled Harijana-khanda , Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura states:

 

 

"Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. EVEN THOUGH HE IS NOT ENGAGED IN SERVING THE SUPREME LORD , he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF SELF REALIZATION, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state.

 

So, it is not me that you differ with.

It is the Gaudiya Siddhanta and ALL the predecessor acharyas none of whom ever stated that we were originally with Krishna but fell down.

 

That fairytale came along with ISKCON.

It never existed before the hippies in ISKCON invented it.

[sevabhakta]

 

Can you explain that with original Sanskrit verses beyond the fairytales that Srila Prabhupada nurtured the brain-dead hippie disciples with?

 

I am sorry but Srila Prabhupada contradicts himself too many times for me to just accept anything that doesn't have shastric support.

 

At some point in our study of the shastra we have to start weeding out the fairytale from the siddhanta and get beyond confusion.

 

As long as we don't see the fairytale for what it is we are left with nothing except to say that Srila Prabhupada had contradicted himself many times in his teachings.

 

There is nothing to revive except our position as spirit sparks in the brahmajyoti.

 

Well, we have to revive that and then progress beyond that to devotional service to Krishna.

 

Reviving what we had is just the beginning.

We must go way past revival to attain the highest perfection.

 

Jaya Prabhu!

 

Just imagine the space around the very bodily form of Sri Krsna in Goloka Vrndavana to about 3 feet in front of his body. That is the Brahmajyoti, same as the sky that is hundreds of miles away from him. It permeates everything, yet in particular is defined as the sky which pervades.

 

So all potential reciprocal experiences that Krsna may enjoy with a devotee exist in that potential in his brahmajyoti, and as his bodily effulgence EXPANDS the potential for different experiences EXPANDS, and thus innumerable new living enties arise from his very life force, at every moment, and that new living entity contains the potential of an everlastingly fresh and unique service exchange with the Lord.

 

Every one of us has that potential. And he creates new unique living entities at all times always, and expands himself to taste that unique reciprocation which cannot be found anywhere in his own spiritual or material sky except for right there with each different one of us.

 

We spring from his effulgence because that is what creates the eternally fresh forms of Lila for the Lord and his devotees.

 

The relation between the "birth" of the Jiva and the making of the "choice" between service in heaven, or a nice mayadevi in hell is another story.

[CCC]

 

No so fast.

Here is what Srila Prabhupada says about the spiritual SKY in the introduction to Bhagavad-gita.

 

 

 

So, it seems quite obvious Srila Prabhupada is referring to our origins in the brahmajyoti of Krishna.

No, stop twisting the purports of Srila Prabhupada, when Srila Prabhupada talks about spiritual sky and material sky he is refering to the spiritual and material dimensions as a whole

 

From Bhagavad Gita Introduction:

"The Lord says, na tad bhasayate suryo na sasanko na pavakah. yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama. One who can approach that spiritual sky is not required to descend again to the material sky. In the material sky, even if we approach the highest planet (Brahmaloka), what to speak of the moon, we will find the same conditions of life, namely birth, death, disease and old age. No planet in the material universe is free from these four principles of material existence. Therefore the Lord says in Bhagavad-gita, abrahma-bhuvanal lokah punar avartino 'rjuna. The living entities are traveling from one planet to another, not by a mechanical arrangement but by a spiritual process."

[Beggar]

 

 

From Bhagavad Gita Introduction:

"The Lord says, na tad bhasayate suryo na sasanko na pavakah. yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama. One who can approach that spiritual sky is not required to descend again to the material sky.

 

A couple of paragraphs before this Srila Srila Prabhupada writes,

The abode of Lord Sri Krishna is described in the Bhagavad-gita, Fifteenth Chapter, sixth verse:

 

 

na tad bhasayate suryo

na sasanko na pavakah

yad gatva na nivartante

tad dhama paramam mama

 

 

"That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world."

 

 

You are grasping at straws, trying to read too much into an attempt to convey transcendental concepts in a crude, barbaric language.

 

 

 

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Srimad Bhagavatam 1.5.11

 

 

tad-vag-visargo janatagha-viplavo

yasmin prati-slokam abaddhavaty api

namany anantasya yaso 'nkitani yat

srinvanti gayanti grinanti sadhavah

 

 

 

 

 

On the other hand, that literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, etc., of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bringing about a revolution in the impious lives of this world's misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest.

 

[cbrahma]

 

Then I guess you take issue with Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur who says that originally the jiva is in shanta-rasa without any service to Krishna?

 

In the second chapter of his book "Brahmana and Vaisnava" entitled Harijana-khanda , Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura states:

 

 

 

So, it is not me that you differ with.

It is the Gaudiya Siddhanta and ALL the predecessor acharyas none of whom ever stated that we were originally with Krishna but fell down.

 

That fairytale came along with ISKCON.

It never existed before the hippies in ISKCON invented it.

The specific characteristics of santa-rasa - unflinching faith in Krsna and cessation of all desires which are not connected with Krsna - are common to all other rasas as well, just as sound is generally present in all other elements (air, fire, water and earth) because it is produced from the sky. Similarly, these two characteristics of santa-rasa are present in other transcendental relationships, such as dasya (servitorship), sakhya (fraternity), vatsalya (paternal affection), and the madhura-rasa (conjugal love).

Faith in Krsna is not impersonal.

[Guruvani]

You guys need to read everything that has been posted on the topics related to this issue.

There is much, much evidence to disprove the fall-from-goloka theory and it has been presented several times already in the proper topics.

 

We are not going to go over it again and again every time somebody jumps in the middle of a discussion ignoring everything that has already been presented on the topic.

 

Obviously, some of you have not bothered to read evidence from the other side of the argument but are just jumping in the middle of something after the discussion has already been dealt with in depth on previous topics.

[Beggar]

Bhagavd Gita As It Is 15.7 Purport,

"The following information is there in the Madhyandinayana-sruti: sa va esa brahma-nistha idam sariram martyam atisrjya brahmabhisampadya brahmana pasyati brahmana srnoti brahmanaivedam sarvam anubhavati. It is stated here that when a living entity gives up this material embodiment and enters into the spiritual world, he revives his spiritual body, and in his spiritual body he can see the Supreme Personality of Godhead face to face. He can hear and speak to Him face to face, and he can understand the Supreme Personality as He is. In smrti also it is understood that in the spiritual planets everyone lives in bodies featured like the Supreme Personality of Godhead's. As far as bodily construction is concerned, there is no difference between the part and parcel living entities and the expansions of visnu-murti. In other words, at liberation the living entity gets a spiritual body by the grace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead...

That fragmental portion, when liberated from the bodily entanglement, revives its original spiritual body in the spiritual sky in a spiritual planet and enjoys association with the Supreme Lord. It is, however, understood here that the living entity, being the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, is qualitatively one, just as the parts and parcels of gold are also gold."

Look at this statement:

"It is stated here that when a living entity gives up this material embodiment and enters into the spiritual world, he revives his spiritual body, and in his spiritual body he can see the Supreme Personality of Godhead face to face."

Here again we see the limitations of the English language that Srila Prabhupada is working in. If you enter into a place, you, by definition, must be in a different place to begin with. Yet how can you revive something that you don't already have? Therefore Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has told that these things are inconcievable and simultaneously one and different. Srila Prabhupada is looking at this from different angles of vision, but he will never conclude that the nitya-siddha bhaktas actually fall down even if they always have free will. The idea that we already have a "swaupa body" in Goloka and are just dreaming that we are in material existence won't work to bridge the gap between the two opposite ideas, i.e., enter and revive. It is a concept that is dualistic, not taking into consideration the opposite angle of vision which accomodates the special postion of the nitya-siddha servitors of the Lord who are as much or more the object of devotion of the Rupanuga Vaisnavas. On the other hand as noted by Sripad Visnu Maharaja, the Fall Theorist's strategy is to simple ignore opposing statements in Srila Prabhupada's books as if they don't exist.

 

 

"The nitya-siddha devotees never fall down to the region of the material atmosphere even though they sometimes come into the material plane to execute the mission of the Lord." (Bhag. 3.3.26, purp.)

[Beggar]

To prove Makak's theory, I've decided to argue with myself!

Some devotees once said in Mayapur that it is too difficult to

understand how we originally feel down from Goloka or Vaikuntha and

the subject is best not discussed. Here is Srila Prabhupada's

response.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult".

 

Acyutananda - "It is not difficult. They don't want to understand".

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Because you are part and parcel of God, God has

got full independence, but you have got little independence,

proportionately, because you are part and parcel".

 

Acyutananda - "But in the Gita, it says, "Once coming there, he never

returns."

 

Srila Prabhupada - "But if he likes, he can return".

 

Acyutananda - "He can return".

 

Srila Prabhupada - "That independence has to be accepted, little

independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha

kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown".Mayapur, India, on

February 19, 1976, Srila Prabhupada

 

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is

very nice,Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is

the meaning of free will?' Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

 

Prabhupada - "originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha.

 

nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti 'sadhya' kabhu naya

zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya

 

Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other,

just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world" Srimad

Bhagavatam Class

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they

only 'think' they are fallen or 'dream' they are fallen but in

perpetual reality one can never fall down". Srimad Bhagavatam class

Japan

 

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha

planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976 Questions to Srila Prabhupadfa of

how we fell down from Goloka, (not as our nitya-siddha body) as our

dreaming nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness

 

Srila Prabhupada - "So as eternal servitors of Krishna-our

constitutional position-we fall down when we try to become the

enjoyer, imitating Krishna. That is our downfall". Letter to

Jananivasa Prabhu, dated August 27, 1967

 

This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or

Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE. The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "This material creation is the spirit soul's dream.

Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu,

as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "This material world is created by the dreaming of

Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when

the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead,

he is put into this dreamland of material creation." Purport to SB.

4.29.83.

[theist]

 

Can you explain that with original Sanskrit verses beyond the fairytales that Srila Prabhupada nurtured the brain-dead hippie disciples with?

 

I am sorry but Srila Prabhupada contradicts himself too many times for me to just accept anything that doesn't have shastric support.

 

 

Without taking a side in this most futile of debates I find it usefull to make this point. You people that pretend to know the inner meaning of Srila Prabhupada's intent and twist his words to mean the exact opposite of what he clearly says are the worst of the worst. I don't agree with everything Srila Prabhupada taught on certain subjects, like the moon for example , but I simply say I disagree I don't try to make it sound like he really believes what I believe but had to say something else for some reason.

 

You guys are in spirit much worse than the editors at the BBT that rewrote his books. God forbid you ever got your little paws on them for you would mangle them beyond all recognition.

 

If you disagree with Srila Prabhupada simply man up and be honest enough to say so and stand on your own and let the chips fall where they may. Quit trying to hide behind his dhoti while disagreeing with what he taught.

[Guruvani]

 

Bhagavd Gita As It Is 15.7 Purport,

"The following information is there in the Madhyandinayana-sruti: sa va esa brahma-nistha idam sariram martyam atisrjya brahmabhisampadya brahmana pasyati brahmana srnoti brahmanaivedam sarvam anubhavati. It is stated here that when a living entity gives up this material embodiment and enters into the spiritual world, , and in his spiritual body he can see the Supreme Personality of Godhead face to face. He can hear and speak to Him face to face, and he can understand the Supreme Personality as He is. In smrti also it is understood that in the spiritual planets everyone lives in bodies featured like the Supreme Personality of Godhead's. As far as bodily construction is concerned, there is no difference between the part and parcel living entities and the expansions of visnu-murti. In other words, at liberation the living entity gets a spiritual body by the grace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead...

That fragmental portion, when liberated from the bodily entanglement, revives its original spiritual body in the spiritual sky in a spiritual planet and enjoys association with the Supreme Lord. It is, however, understood here that the living entity, being the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, is qualitatively one, just as the parts and parcels of gold are also gold."

Look at this statement:

"It is stated here that when a living entity gives up this material embodiment and enters into the spiritual world, he revives his spiritual body, and in his spiritual body he can see the Supreme Personality of Godhead face to face."

Here again we see the limitations of the English language that Srila Prabhupada is working in. If you enter into a place, you, by definition, must be in a different place to begin with. Yet how can you revive something that you don't already have? Therefore Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has told that these things are inconcievable and simultaneously one and different. Srila Prabhupada is looking at this from different angles of vision, but he will never conclude that the nitya-siddha bhaktas actually fall down even if they always have free will. The idea that we already have a "swaupa body" in Goloka and are just dreaming that we are in material existence won't work to bridge the gap between the two opposite ideas, i.e., enter and revive. It is a concept that is dualistic, not taking into consideration the opposite angle of vision which accomodates the special postion of the nitya-siddha servitors of the Lord who are as much or more the object of devotion of the Rupanuga Vaisnavas. On the other hand as noted by Sripad Visnu Maharaja, the Fall Theorist's strategy is to simple ignore opposing statements in Srila Prabhupada's books as if they don't exist.

 

 

"The nitya-siddha devotees never fall down to the region of the material atmosphere even though they sometimes come into the material plane to execute the mission of the Lord." (Bhag. 3.3.26, purp.)

 

What is interesting in the quote above by Srila Prabhupada:

Bhagavd Gita As It Is 15.7 Purport......

He basically says two different things in the same paragraph.

However, it would take someone who knows Sanskrit to decipher which rendering is accurate to the original.

In one sentence Srila Prabhupada says:

he revives his spiritual body

 

and then a few sentences later says:

 

 

at liberation the living entity gets a spiritual body

 

There is most definitely a difference between reviving a thing and getting a thing.

These statements in the same paragraph have two different meanings.

 

It appears to me that Srila Prabhupada is trying to appease both the fairytale lovers and the shastrically oriented devotees at the same time in the same purport.

 

Ultimately, I would want to see a rendering by an unbiased Sanskrit expert to know which meaning is really most true to the Vedic verse from the Sruti that Srila Prabhupada quoted and gave two different renderings of.

 

Nobody can ever convince me that "revives" and "gets" mean the same thing because they certainly do not.

 

 

[Guruvani]

 

Without taking a side in this most futile of debates I find it usefull to make this point. You people that pretend to know the inner meaning of Srila Prabhupada's intent and twist his words to mean the exact opposite of what he clearly says are the worst of the worst. I don't agree with everything Srila Prabhupada taught on certain subjects, like the moon for example , but I simply say I disagree I don't try to make it sound like he really believes what I believe but had to say something else for some reason.

 

You guys are in spirit much worse than the editors at the BBT that rewrote his books. God forbid you ever got your little paws on them for you would mangle them beyond all recognition.

 

If you disagree with Srila Prabhupada simply man up and be honest enough to say so and stand on your own and let the chips fall where they may. Quit trying to hide behind his dhoti while disagreeing with what he taught.

 

Then apply that criticism to the entire previous Gaudiya sampradaya before ISKCON, because before ISKCON the fall-from-goloka fairytale did not exist in the Gaudiya sampradaya and is clearly refuted by Srila Saraswati Thakur as well.

 

You say "you guys" , but the you guys that you really are referring to is all of the Gaudiya Vaishnavas in history except some neophytes in ISKCON and on this forum.

[Beggar]

 

If you disagree with Srila Prabhupada simply man up and be honest enough to say so and stand on your own and let the chips fall where they may. Quit trying to hide behind his dhoti while disagreeing with what he taught.

It's not so easy for when it really comes down to all the different sides believe that they are understanding Srila Prabhupada properly and the others are not. Those who have heard from siksa gurus outside of ISKCON (or even within, like Gaura Govinda Maharaja) have in a sense triangulated the whereabouts of the siddhanta in this issue. Those who only hear from Prabhupada, may or may not find the proper conclusion as we have seen. Srila Sridhar Maharaja and others do not or did not believe that they were disagreeing with Srila Prabhupada about the origin of the jiva. They are or were viewing his statements in the light of the previous acaryas.The Fall-Vadis and Sleepervadis both believe that Srila Prabhupada has some unique realization about the origin of the soul that others in the past did not have.

[theist]

 

Then apply that criticism to the entire previous Gaudiya sampradaya before ISKCON, because before ISKCON the fall-from-goloka fairytale did not exist in the Gaudiya sampradaya and is clearly refuted by Srila Saraswati Thakur as well.

 

You say "you guys" , but the you guys that you really are referring to is all of the Gaudiya Vaishnavas in history except some neophytes in ISKCON and on this forum.

 

No Guruvani you don't understand what I am saying. I am not speaking of one conclusion or the other I am talking about twisting Srila Prabhupada's words. Could be any subject.