Fall theory is worse than Mayavada says Narasingha Maharaja

[mahak]

many of his useless disciples did this to his face, a little granny wisdom from another old indian, and prabhupada is reduced to a fairy tale teller.

 

The whole reason that GM literature was basically removed from ISKCON bookstores is that his disciples wanted to imitate him, even to the point of instructing him, pretending that their guru is his guru. In fact, that is the whole foundation of rtvik ideology, the fact that satswarupa inserted the word rtvik into a management meeting, as if he were enlightening srila prabhupada.

 

The whole idea of guru means that this person is THE vehicle for the disciple to cross this ocean. Srimad Bhagavatam has the most full and important instruction on guru tattwa in the very first chapters of canto one, yet, thousands if not the full majority of his disciples continually dispute these books, that which was delivered to us intact from the spiritual strata.

 

So, decades later, we start to think that hes not so good a captain, that his boat is limited, that he taught us not everything we need. This is actually a full description of those who never pass the inquisitive stage. Sure, they are eligible, but if they dont get wise, then they go away. Thus we see all these people jumping ship, abandoning the only captain who ever gave a crap about them.

 

This aint about the position of the moon, bro, which we can certainly disagree with, and he actually loves us more for gradually leaving the awe and reverence of servitude aside in favor of a friendship where disagreements can occur. But never does any of this cross the line of guru tattwa, the subtle falldown, the abandoning ship, the utter treachery.

 

So, did we fall from goloka? As far as I am concerned, I didnt abandon ship, tried to many times, but he wants me more than I want him so he left this threadlike lifeline, so I accept his version. I also accept the fact that real initiation is in the hands of not diksa, not siksa, but in the form of he who has INTRODUCED us to Krsna. Srila Prabhupada, in his very first production in the west, states clearly everything we need to know:

 

(NOTE: I hate doing this, as I have criticized others for doing so, but I highlight pertenent points for this thread)

 

 

"As explained on the cover of the record album, this transcendental vibration--by chanting of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare--is the sublime method for reviving our Krsna consciousness. As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter since time immemorial, our consciousness is now polluted by material atmosphere. In this polluted concept of live, we are all trying to exploit the resources of material nature, but actually we are becoming more and more entangled in our complexities. This illusion is called maya, or hard struggle for existence over the stringent laws of material nature. This illusory struggle against the material nature can at once be stopped by revival of our Krsna consciousness." [His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada]

 

Originally, we are Krsna Conscious entities. Therefore, disciples of Srila Prabhupada reject the notion that we are originally sparks in the great fire of brahman effulgence. There is no identity within the brahmajyoti, there is no consciousness at all, it is non-existance, period. Entity defines as "something that has separate and distinct existence and objective or conceptual reality". To place the adjectival phrase, "krsna conscious" on the word entity, we see that Srila Prabhupada is telling us that this is our origin, krsna conscious BEINGS of separate and distinct existance.

 

All other concocted ideas on this subject have no value, smack of aparadha if the concoction is opposing one's own spiritual master. etc.

 

Now if this Narasingha Maharaja wants to make a thesis about some others falldown theory, this is for his disciples to accept. I mean, without a thesis, who cares. Srila Prabhupada doesnt mention "fall down", ever. But he does always saqy that somehow or other, from time immemorial, we have had our consciousness polluted by maya, and we have forgotten. He doesnt say sleep, even though he has translated the song "Jiv Jago", meaning that we sleep on the lap of the witch called maya. So your stupid derision of those you call "sleepvadis' are actually bonafide disciples of the author of Jiv Jago, (Narottama or Bhaktivinode, I forget). You say one doesnt forget, but apparently one does, according to the above initial instruction by Srila Prabhupada. So maybe these folks really want to throw Srila Prabhupada aside from the helm of the ship, but their ship aint going to where I want to go, thus I gladly call myself a "forgetvadi". I accept the FACT that at one time, I was originally Krsna conscious , but due to my association with matter since time immemorial, my consciousness is now polluted by material atmosphere.

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

 

[theist]

 

It's not so easy for when it really comes down to all the different sides believe that they are understanding Srila Prabhupada properly and the others are not.

No go back and read the context of what I was responding to. It was Guruvani's post where he says that Srila Prabhupada contradicted himself many times on this point.

 

What I am suggesting is that when Srila Prabhupada clearly states something that is oppsite of the position we hold to be true that we don't twist those words to try and justify our position but rather we say honestly that we don't accept what he says.

 

That much honesty is required.

 

 

 

Those who have heard from siksa gurus outside of ISKCON (or even within, like Gaura Govinda Maharaja) have in a sense triangulated the whereabouts of the siddhanta in this issue. Those who only hear from Prabhupada, may or may not find the proper conclusion as we have seen.

You think you have seen. They think they see something else. They see your triangulation as a square.

 

 

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja and others do not or did not believe that they were disagreeing with Srila Prabhupada about the origin of the jiva.

Perhaps they do or don't. I don't know or care. I am happy knowing my origin is from the Supreme Person and am satisfied that when I am capable of understanding (liberated from time) He will/may reveal the truth of all this to me. It is not a debatable topic.

 

 

They are or were viewing his statements in the light of the previous acaryas.The Fall-Vadis and Sleepervadis both believe that Srila Prabhupada has some unique realization about the origin of the soul that others in the past did not have.

The previous acarya Bhaktivinode Thakur taught in Jaiva Dharma that some souls come from Krsna's aura and go right to Goloka others from Vishnu's aura and go to Vaikuntha and other's from Maha-vishnu's aura and come to the material world and have to work their way out of hell.

 

Is this true? I don't know. But in reading Bhaktivinode Thakur one thing I have picked up was his desire to see everyone question to the limits the previous acaryas teachings while developing realizations (not speculations) of our own. So to think Srila Prabhupada may have been shown something beyond what his godbrothers had or even those acaryas previous to him is not at all astounding to me as I believe in a progressive revelation of truth without limits.

[CCC]

 

A couple of paragraphs before this Srila Srila Prabhupada writes,

The abode of Lord Sri Krishna is described in the Bhagavad-gita, Fifteenth Chapter, sixth verse:

 

 

na tad bhasayate suryo

na sasanko na pavakah

yad gatva na nivartante

tad dhama paramam mama

 

 

"That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world."

 

 

You are grasping at straws, trying to read too much into an attempt to convey transcendental concepts in a crude, barbaric language.

 

"That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world."

 

 

From Bhagavad Gita Introduction:

"The Lord says, na tad bhasayate suryo na sasanko na pavakah. yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama. One who can approach that spiritual sky is not required to descend again to the material sky.

 

That mean that there is a posibility to fall down from the spiritual planets, is not an obligation because you are not entagled by your karma so you don't have to return, but if you want to descend from the spiritual world to the material world again, you can come.

But when the souls comes to this plane they realize that this material world is hard and almost invariably don't come again to enjoy without Krsna, and if they come again is for preaching or to assist the Lord in other pastimes.

 

"Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back.

Prabhupada: No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become

intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order

of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something.

Now, if somebody comes, 'Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,' I'll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I'll never become." Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108 (San Francisco, February 18, 1967) "

[cbrahma]

LORD POLONIUS: [Aside] How say you by that? Still harping on my

daughter: yet he knew me not at first; he said I

was a fishmonger: he is far gone, far gone: and

truly in my youth I suffered much extremity for

love; very near this. I'll speak to him again.

What do you read, my lord?

 

HAMLET: Words, words, words.

 

LORD POLONIUS: What is the matter, my lord?

 

HAMLET: Between who?

 

Of course it is clear between who.

[Guruvani]

 

Is this true? I don't know. But in reading Bhaktivinode Thakur one thing I have picked up was his desire to see everyone question to the limits the previous acaryas teachings

 

I don't know what Bhaktivinoda Thakur you are talking about but it must be the one you have created in your imagination.

That surely doesn't not describe the real Bhaktivinoda Thakur.

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakur was different only in terms of the audience he was attempting to reach.

Bhaktivinoda Thakur started writing and preaching to English speaking people and oriented his approach to that population.

Other than that, it would be foolish to say that he questioned the predecessor acharyas or altered the siddhanta.

 

Even if he did, all it would have secured for him in the future would be a place in the Gaudiya Hall of Shame for all time to come.

 

I don't believe for a nanosecond that Bhaktivinoda questioned, challenged or deviated from the previous acharyas.

 

Anyone who says he did is simply living in a fantasy.

[mahak]

how about this one, guruvani. How come srila bhaktivinode states clearly that Lord Jesus Christ is a vaisnava when no previous acarya said such a thing?

 

gotcha, bro, mahak

[Guruvani]

 

how about this one, guruvani. How come srila bhaktivinode states clearly that Lord Jesus Christ is a vaisnava when no previous acarya said such a thing?

 

Maybe he was having a bad day?

[theist]

 

Maybe he was having a bad day?

 

More likely you are having a bad day or should we say a very long string of bad days,

[Beggar]

 

That mean that there is a posibility to fall down from the spiritual planets, is not an obligation because you are not entagled by your karma so you don't have to return, but if you want to descend from the spiritual world to the material world again, you can come.

 

I'm sorry but this makes no sense and I'm not just talking about your error in syntax. Srila Prabhupada made statements emphasizing free will because he knew that his late adolescent, early adulthood disciples who he called, "boys and girls", had a very difficult time at taking personal responsibility. The majority of his disciples were a bunch of kids who had quite recently been irresponsible hippies. It doesn't help anyone except perhaps a rank beginner to equivicate on the position of the nitya-siddha bhaktas who participate directly in Vraja and Gaura lila. If they fall down like us then they ARE us. If they ARE us then our only recourse would be to worship Krsna directly and alone. But we don't, we worship Krsna tvadiya or everything that is associated with Radha Krsna and is therefore cinmaya.

Without a definite line of demarcation between nitya-siddhas and nitya-badhas, the higher levels of the Gaudiya conception such as Rupanuga begin to dissemble. Mahaprabhu and Kaviraja Goswami did not give the "nitya-siddha krsna prema" verse in Caitanya Caritamrta for us to proclaim that we are nitya-siddha and see ourselves as equal to Krsna's eternal associates. Never-the-less the verse gives deep insight into Reality. I find it amazing that hardly anyone will respond to these points.

What gives?

[Guruvani]

 

Mahaprabhu and Kaviraja Goswami did not give the "nitya-siddha krsna prema" verse in Caitanya Caritamrta for us to proclaim that we are nitya-siddha and see ourselves as equal to Krsna's eternal associates. Never-the-less the verse gives deep insight into Reality. I find it amazing that hardly anyone will respond to these points.

What gives?

I have some thoughts on the subject.

 

 

Madhya 22.107 -

 

nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-prema 'sādhya' kabhu naya

śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya

 

Pure love for Kṛṣṇa is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens.

This verse must be understood properly.

It is easy to take this verse and extrapolate a false conclusion.

 

This verse actually substantiates the conclusion that the conditioned living entities originate on the platform of santa-rasa as described in this statement of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur.

 

"Brahmana and Vaisnava" entitled Harijana-khanda:

 

"Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. EVEN THOUGH HE IS NOT ENGAGED IN SERVING THE SUPREME LORD , he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF SELF REALIZATION, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state."

How have I come to that conclusion one might ask?

 

First, we must understand the progressive levels of love of Godhead which can be divided into nine varieties, beginning with attraction and extending up to ecstatic love and finally up to the topmost ecstatic love [mahābhāva].

 

The first stage or the first level of love of Godhead is known as prema.

Prema is the innate natural love that every soul has for the soul of his own soul - the Supersoul (Paramatma).

Everyone loves his own soul.

Everyone naturally loves the soul of his own soul - the Supersoul, even if they don't know him as such.

 

Mahaprabhu explained to Sanatan Goswami that this prema (nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-prema) is the most fundamental and elementary form of love of Godhead that can be realized by the shanta-bhaktas in shanta-rasa.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 24.32

 

śānta-bhaktera rati bāḍe 'prema'-paryanta

dāsya-bhaktera rati haya 'rāga'-daśā-anta

 

SYNONYMS

śānta-bhaktera — of devotees on the platform of neutrality; rati — attraction; bāḍe — increases; prema-paryanta — up to love of Godhead; dāsya-bhaktera — of devotees on the platform of servitude; rati — attraction; haya — increases; rāga-daśā-anta — up to the point of spontaneous attachment.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"The attraction to Kṛṣṇa of devotees on the platform of neutrality increases up to love of Godhead [prema], and the attraction of devotees on the platform of servitorship increases to spontaneous attachment [rāga].

 

Beyond prema is the first advanced platform of love of Godhead - raga.

Then comes anuraga, bhava and ultimately mahabhava.

 

So, Mahaprabhu doesn't say that raga, anuraga or bhava is already in the heart of the conditioned living entity.

He says that "prema" is already in the heart of the living entity and it can be awakened.

 

As shown in the verse above, this prema that Mahaprabhu says is in the heart of every living entity is simply the most basic and elementary platform of love of Godhead and that shanta-bhaktas can attain UP TO that level of love of Godhead.

 

When love of Godhead surpasses the level of prema it is called "raga".

Then after that comes "anuraga", "bhava" and ultimately "mahabhava".

 

So, really, Mahaprabhu again confirms in his teachings that the original constitutional position of the conditioned living entities is shanta-rasa where the most basic level of love of Godhead - prema can be realized in the perfection of shanta-rasa.

 

However, the higher levels of love of Godhead - pure love of Godhead without adulteration must be acquired from beyond ourselves.

It comes from Krishna.

 

Srila Prabhupada explains in this purport:

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 4.68

 

hlādinīra sāra 'prema', prema-sāra 'bhāva'

bhāvera parama-kāṣṭhā, nāma — 'mahā-bhāva'

 

 

SYNONYMS

hlādinīra — of the pleasure potency; sāra — the essence; prema — love for God; prema-sāra — the essence of such love; bhāva — emotion; bhāvera — of emotion; parama-kāṣṭhā — the highest limit; nāma — named;

mahā-bhāva — mahābhāva.

 

 

TRANSLATION

The essence of the hlādinī potency is love of God, the essence of love of God is emotion [bhāva], and the ultimate development of emotion is mahābhāva.

 

 

PURPORT

The product of the hlādinī-śakti is love of Godhead, which has two divisions — namely, pure love of Godhead and adulterated love of Godhead. Only when the hlādinī-śakti emanates from Śrī Kṛṣṇa and is bestowed upon the living being to attract Him does the living being become a pure lover of God. But when the same hlādinī-śakti is adulterated by the external, material energy and emanates from the living being, it does not attract Kṛṣṇa; on the contrary, the living being becomes attracted by the glamor of the material energy. At that time instead of becoming mad with love of Godhead, the living being becomes mad after material sense enjoyment, and because of his association with the qualitative modes of material nature, he is captivated by its interactions of distressful, unhappy feelings.

 

So, unadultered love of Godhead must be bestowed upon the living entity as an emanation from Sri Krishna.

It is not said to be innately in the soul.

Apparently, the prema that is innately in the heart of the conditioned soul is a form of adulterated prema because pure prema must emanate from Lord Krishna and become bestowed upon the loving devotee of Krishna.

 

When this prema emanates from the living entity it is adulterated and directed at the material illusion.

When prema emanates from Lord Krishna and is bestowed upon the living entity than THAT PREMA is pure and makes the devotee into a pure lover of Krishna.

 

 

Only when the hlādinī-śakti emanates from Śrī Kṛṣṇa and is bestowed upon the living being to attract Him does the living being become a pure lover of God.

 

 

 

 

 

[Shakti-Fan]

Murwillumbah, Australia: April 28, 2005 [Part 1]

(The second class in the lecture series on Raya Ramananda Samvad)

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

 

...You should know the definition of sva-bhakti, according to the understanding given by Srila Rupa Gosvami:

anarpita-carim cirat karunayavatirnah kalau

samarpayitum unnatojjvala-rasam sva-bhakti-sriyam

harih purata-sundara-dyuti-kadamba-sandipitah

sada hrdaya-kandare sphuratu vah saci-nandanah

[“May the Supreme Lord who is known as the son of Srimati Saci-devi be transcendentally situated in the innermost chambers of your heart. Resplendent with the radiance of molten gold, He has appeared in the Age of Kali by His causeless mercy to bestow what no incarnation has ever offered before: the most sublime and radiant mellow of devotional service, the mellow of conjugal love.” (Caitanya-caritamrta Adi-lila 1.4)]

Sva means “Her own.” “Her own” means Srimati Radhika and Her own special moods of sneha, maan, pranaya, raga, anuraga, bhava, mahabhava, adiruddha, mohan, and then up to madan. Even Lord Krsna has no madan; He has only up to mahabhava – and not even adiruddha mahabhava. Only Lalita, Visakha and other gopis like them have these moods, although they do not have madan. But Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is a combination of Sri Krsna and Sri Radha.

Sva-bhakti is Radhika’s bhakti to Krsna, the love of Radhika for Sri Krsna. Kamatmika-bhakti (madhurya-rasa) has two divisions. One division is called ullasa-mayi-rati, and that is the mood of the manjari, a maidservant of Sri Radha. A jiva can never have the mood of Radhika. If Lalita and Visakha cannot have Her mood, and Sri Krsna cannot have Her mood, how can a jiva have it? By constitution, a jiva who has a relationship with Krsna in madhurya rasa has the eligibility only for this manjari-bhava.

You should think that practically all those in this audience, those of you who are hearing of manjari-bhava, have that bhava in your constitution. You should think that those who are attracted to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu are very fortunate. Those who have come to His line have done so because of Srila Rupa Gosvami, and Rupa Gosvami is internally Rupa Manjari.

How many are you? In number, you are practically nothing. In this entire creation, all of you together are not even one drop. One drop has so many particles, and those particles can be divided into still more particles. So your number is almost nothing. Don’t doubt this. You are very fortunate that you are attracted to this line. Otherwise, you could have gone to Ramanuja, Madhavacarya, Visnusvami or Nimbarka. In India there are also thousands of apa-sampradayas (groups outside the four authorized disciplic successions), and you could have gone there as well.

Only Caitanya Mahaprabhu could have brought this understanding to the world. Before Him there was no bhakti-rasa (raganuga-bhakti and rupanuga-bhakti). Bhakti was there, but it was vaidhi-bhakti, not bhakti-rasa. Mahaprabhu especially ordered Sri Svarupa Damodara and Sri Raya Ramananda to sprinkle their mercy upon Srila Rupa Gosvami, so that he could be qualified to realize the Lord’s mood and establish it in the world – and Rupa Gosvami did establish it. The stayi-bhava (permanent transcendental emotion or relationship) discussed herein is of the manjaris, and it is called bhava-ullasa-rati. It is not directly in relation to Sri Krsna. The manjaris have more inclination towards Srimati Radhika.

radhika-dasi yadi haya abhimana

sigrai milai taba gokula-kana

[“If you develop pride in being Srimati Radhika's exclusive maidservant, then you will very quickly meet Gokula Kana (Sri Krsna).” (Sri Radha-Bhajana Mahima, Glorification of Worship to Sri Radha by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, verse 5)]

If Srimati Radhika is unhappy, in a mood of lamenting and crying, Sri Rupa Manjari will also be crying. At that time Lalita and Visakha can console Radhika, but Rupa Manjari cannot. The same moods relished by Srimati Radhika will manifest in the heart of Rupa Manjari. Seeing her master, she will weep like her master, so how can she console Her? Rupa Manjari, Rati Manjari and Lavanga Manjari cannot console Her. Their moods are very exalted.

[Shakti-Fan]

*Endnote 2: sneha – that stage when prema, attaining a state of excellence, intensifies one's perception of the object love and melts the heart. When sneha is enkindled in the heart, there is no quenching of the ever-new thirst for seeing the beloved.

Maan – that stage of prema in which sneha reaches exultation, thus causing one to experience the sweetness of the beloved in ever new varieties (Ujjvala-nilamani 14.96), and when the nayika assumes an outward demeanor of pique which turns into transcendental anger and indignation arising out of jealous love.

Pranaya – that intensified stage of prema when maan assumes a feature of unrestrained intimacy known as visrambha, or confidence devoid of any restraint or formality. This confidence causes one to consider one's life, mind, intelligence, body, and possessions to be one in all respects with the life, mind, intelligence, and body of the beloved.

Raga – 1) an intensified stage of prema in which an unquenchable loving thirst (prema-mayi trsna) for the object of one's affection (Sri Krsna) gives rise to spontaneous and intense absorption in one's beloved, so much so that in the absence of the opportunity to please the beloved, one is on the verge of giving up his life; 2) when pranaya is experienced in the heart as immense pleasure. If by accepting some misery there is a chance to meet with Krsna, then that misery becomes a source of great happiness. And where happiness affords no opportunity to meet with Krsna, that happiness becomes the source of great distress.

anuraga – an intensified stage of prema as defined in Ujjvala-nilamani (14.146): “Although one regularly meets with and is well-acquainted with the beloved, the ever-fresh sentiment of intense attachment causes the beloved to be newly experienced at every moment, as if one has never before had any experience of such a person.”

bhava – 1) loving emotions; a particular mood of love in which the devotee serves Krsna. 2) an intensified stage of prema which in Ujjvala-nilamani has been equated with maha-bhava, which occurs when anuraga attains a certain stage of exhilaration and relish. This can be experienced and relished only by anuraga itself and by no other bhava. When anuraga is adorned with the inflamed and exciting sattvika passions like molten gold and reaches its climax in Srimati Radhika, becoming identical with Her very temperament and dispositions, it is called bhava.

mahabhava – the most mature stage of prema.

*Endnote 3: bhava-ullasa rati – Generally, devotees of the same mood and who are enriched with similar desires naturally share suhrd-bhava, intimate friendship, with each other. That is why the love and affection that Lalita and the other sakhis have for Srimati Radhika is called suhrd-rati. When their suhrd-rati is the same as or slightly less than their Krsna-rati (affection towards Sri Krsna), this is called sancari-bhava (a temporary emotion that is compared to the waves that swell and then return to the ocean of their permanent emotion of the mood of Krsna's beloveds). In other words when this suhrd-rati becomes equal to the waves in the ocean of their prominent affection for Krsna, it is a sancari-bhava. However, in the case of the manjari-sakhis, their suhrd-rati (for Sri Radha and everything connected with Her), which abundantly exceeds their krsna-rati and which constantly increases by the moment due to their full absorption in it, is called bhava-ullasa-rati. This is a special feature of madhura-rasa. Of the five types of sakhis, only the nitya sakhis and prana sakhis, who are known as manjaris, have this bhava-ullasa-rati as their permanent emotions (sthayi-rati). It is no longer just a sancari-bhava. These manjaris nurture an abundance of sneha, tender affection, for Radhaji.

It is seen that creepers are always endeavoring to embrace trees, but the leaves, flowers and buds (manjaris) of the creepers do not even slightly try to embrace the trees directly. When a creeper embraces a tree, the joy of those flowers, leaves, and manjaris automatically increases. In Sri Vrndavana Srimati Radhika stands supreme among all gopis. She is famous as the kalpa-lata (the creeper that fulfills every desire) of love for Sri Krsna. Some of Her sakhis have the nature of leaves, some are like flowers, and some like manjaris. That is why they are always eager for Srimati Radhika to meet with Krsna, and are carried away by the bliss of Their union. (Srila Narayana Maharaja's commentary on Venu-gita, verse 7)

*Endnote 4:

Sancari-bhavas - also known as vyabhicari; thirty-three internal emotions which emerge from the nectarean ocean of sthayibhava, cause it to swell, and then merge back into that ocean. These include emotions such as despondency, jubilation, fear, anxiety, and concealment of emotions.

Sattvika-bhavas - that which causes perturbation to be aroused within the heart. They are of eight kinds: stambha, becoming stunned; sveda, perspiration; romanca, standing of the hairs on end; svara-bhanga, faltering of the voice; kampa, trembling; vaivarna, palor or change of color; asru, tears; pralaya, fainting or loss of consciousness.

vyabacari-bhavas - also known as sancari bhavas.

The vyabhicari-bhavas are thirty-three in number. Because they are specifically directed towards and offer special assistance to the sthayibhava, they are known as vyabhicari-bhavas. The word vyabhicari here has a special technical meaning. It can be broken down into three parts: vi (distinction or intensification), abhi (towards) and cari (going). In other words an emotion that moves distinctively in the direction of the sthayibhava and that serves to intensify it is called vyabhicari-bhava. The vyabhicari-bhavas are made known by one's speech, by the limbs such as the eyes and eyebrows, and by sattva, or in other words, by the anubhavas arising from sattva. All these vyabhicari-bhavas move towards the sthayibhava; therefore they are also called sancari-bhavas. The word sancarin means moving. The vyabhicari-bhavas are like waves which emerge from the nectarean ocean of the sthayibhava and cause it to swell. Then they merge back into the ocean and disappear. (Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu)]

[Guruvani]

 

Murwillumbah, Australia: April 28, 2005 [Part 1]

(The second class in the lecture series on Raya Ramananda Samvad)

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja :

 

The stayi-bhava (permanent transcendental emotion or relationship) discussed herein is of the manjaris, and it is called bhava-ullasa-rati. It is not directly in relation to Sri Krsna. The manjaris have more inclination towards Srimati Radhika.

 

 

So, even though Krishna-prema is innately in the heart of the conditioned jiva, can we then say that Radha-dasyam is automatically there as well?

 

Generic love of Krishna in shanta-rasa is there in a dormant condition of the nitya-baddha jivas, but can we extrapolate therefrom that Radha-dasyam and madhurya-rasa are automatically there in the heart of every conditioned soul?

 

 

These higher things are acquired by association with devotees from that class.

 

Does anybody have a verse to show that?

Surely somebody can find something?

[mahak]

Why does there NEED to be a definite line of demarcation between nitya-siddhas and nitya-badhas? This is a very dangerous path, one Ive actually seen even thirty years ago when I was in the loop (or in the noose, its all semantics, eh:) ). And ive been told its wrong, in my heart I know its wrong.

 

The spiritual master has been compared to touchstone, and yes, one cannot make gold out of pig iron, yet touchstone CAN do such a thing. We have been taught that all contradictions are nullified in the presence of the Supreme Lord. We see the messenger reporting back to Narada Muni, describing how Lord Narayana was weaving elephantsa thru the eye of the needle. We hear Lord Jesus, in his camel thru the eye of a needle, add that "With the Supreme Father, all things are possible."

 

Now, we hear this revisionism that states that we are nitya baddhas and can never be back home, in intimate rasa with the supreme Lord./ That is what is being said in all of this. Some have even hinted that back home means being a miocrobuzz in the great atomic blast. We see the intimate relationships in the direct traveling road show of Krsna are positions that are unattainable. In fact, this revisionism is a santa rasa cult, meaning that our only hope is that we can get the DVD and watch, maybe.

 

But this is not so. Even though an eternity of forgetfulness gives us the distinction of being nitya baddha, there is an eternity that minimizaes this experiance to a nano second. Same being, different eternity, changed by touchstone, this whole movement is the touchstone that can crush the eternal forgetfulness once and for all. Unless we forget again:eek: :eek: .

 

So we yak aboutr raga and bhava, yak about prema being rudimentary. In the mean time, we gotta go to the store soon because we are all out of cigarettes, and I gotta call aunt mary soon to find out what her kids want for christmas. And I cant miss that show about Katrina being an inside job.

 

The highest form of Krsna Consciousness taught by Srila Prabhupada is to force ourself out of bed and place the hand in the bag he gave us. In that bag is touchstone, and when the hand is not in the bag, we are truely insane, amnesiac. But in that bag is the highest form of devotional service, only nitya-siddhas are in that bag. In that bag are 108 gopis and Krsna doing the rasa dance. The highest form of religion is in that bag, the conclusions about raga, preme, bhava, as discussed by Ramananda Raya, in the bag.

 

So, we do have clear distinction between nitya baddha and nitya siddha, its in the bag.

 

Simple never meant easy.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guruvani]

 

 

So we yak aboutr raga and bhava, yak about prema being rudimentary. In the mean time, we gotta go to the store soon because we are all out of cigarettes, and I gotta call aunt mary soon to find out what her kids want for christmas. And I cant miss that show about Katrina being an inside job.

 

 

so, if we all just stop such talk and talk only about Jesus is that what we should be doing?

[mahak]

philosophy is for another age. who the hell is conversant in any of this stuff, meaning they are able to speak from experiance. No one, thats who. When I hear a kanistha adhikari speaking about bhava, especially those who say prabhupada is in fairy tale mode, well, its like hearing from the fat welder what hed do different than the quarterback of the NFL team.

 

Yakkin is okay, as long as its presented as theory when a student is speaking, but when the student starts saying that the professor aint doing anything for them, well, theres the door to the new guru supermarket, where others would love to get your affection to agree with your points.

 

Yuga dharma is samkirtana yajna, and all philosophy is fully realized when one purely chants. So, yeah, jesus christ didnt delve too much into philosophy, he just had his disciples worship the name of His Father.

 

We have forgotten, but Krsna doesnt forget. So I leave ya with loreena, who asks god to remember her.

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KFIC5wfuwcQ

[Shakti-Fan]

 

 

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

IF YOU DON'T KNOW

 

 

(Alachua, USA, May 24, 2001)

 

 

Yesterday we were explaining sadhana. When our objective is to attain rati, and with these material senses - the tongue, mind, etc. - we do our sadhana, only then will it be real sadhana; otherwise not. First there must be the objective: "I want to attain rati." What is rati? Rati is that mood of our specific relationship with Krsna - which should be our objective."

 

 

suddha-sattva-visesatma

prema-suryamsu-samya-bhak

rucibhis citta-masrnya-

krd asau bhava ucyate

 

 

["When devotional service is executed on the transcendental platform of pure goodness, it is like a sun-ray of love for Krsna. At such a time, devotional service causes the heart to be softened by various tastes, and one is then situated in bhava (emotion)." (Madhya lila 23.5)]

 

 

What is this bhava? We should know. If you don't know what is bhava, what is rati, then how can your objective be to attain it? If you do not know this, how can you do sadhana? If, not knowing this you are doing 'sadhana', it will not be sadhana. It may be sadhana-abhasa, or even less than that. It is not actually bhakti. We are all in this category.

 

 

What is rati? What is the meaning of suddha-sattva-visesatma? What is sattva? What is suddha-sattva? What is visuddha-sattva? What is suddha-sattva-visesatma? There are four truths to know...We must know what is sattva, and then we must know what is suddha-sattva. Sattva means existence. This body is material sattva. It has no actual existence. All kinds of existence in this world and that transcendental world are sattva. Sattva is of two kinds: Suddha-sattva and misra-sattva. All the souls who are captured in the material energy are now misra-sattva. One who gives up the material sattva and considers himself an infinitesimal part of the Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is suddha-anucit. Transcendental substance is called suddha-sattva.

 

 

Next, what is suddha-sattva-visesatma? What is this type of suddha-sattva? Baladeva Prabhu is the origin of all suddha-sattva, transcendental existence, and everything that exists in this world also comes from Him. He is the presiding Deity of sandini-sakti, Krsna's potency of existence. Everything that comes directly from this sandini-sakti in the form of Baladeva is suddha-sattva. Do you understand?

 

 

Perhaps after two days you will forget this, and therefore you should try to note it down in your heart. Suddha-sattva-visesatma. Hladini-sakti and samvit-sakti belong to the category of the svarupa-sakti of Krsna. Krsna's svarupa-sakti is hladini and samvit. Hladini-sakti is love and affection, with ananda. Samvit means knowledge. From that knowledge all the various kinds of bhava to serve Krsna which are in Radhika may partly come in the jiva. The essence of hladini and samvit, on the platform of sandini, is suddha-sattva visesatma.

 

 

How will it come? It will not come by any sadhana that can be performed by a jiva. It will come by krpa-siddha. What is krpa-siddha? It is perfection by mercy. Mercy is of two kinds. The first is Krsna's mercy, and that includes the mercy of Srimati Radhika, Vrnda, and all tadiya, associates. Secondly, mercy comes from high-class devotees of Krsna, like Sankara, Narada Gosvami, Uddhava, and even more advanced than that, Rupa Gosvami, Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, our Gurudeva, our Srila Swami Maharaja, and others in this line.

 

 

Devotee: And you.

 

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Not myself. I want to be the dust of their lotus feet.

This comes by mercy only. It comes when we surrender and we hanker for rati, always weeping and thinking that we will do everything necessary to attain it, and meanwhile always hankering after the mercy of Krsna and devotees. At that time the devotees' hearts will be melted by seeing our eagerness and endeavors to practice bhakti, in the same way that Krsna looked towards the efforts of mother Yasoda and His heart was melted. If their hearts are not melting by seeing your efforts, they will not sprinkle their mercy. They will think, "Oh, he is very proud. He has so much false ego and so many worldly desires. He is not endeavoring. Although he is sleeping and not chanting, still he is proudly thinking, 'Oh, I have done sixteen rounds of harinama.' This will not do."

 

 

You have seen in the lives of Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami and Srila Rupa Gosvami that they have accepted four qualities:

 

 

trnad api sunicena

taror api sahisnuna

amanina manadena

kirtaniyah sada harih

 

 

Being humble like a blade of grass, more tolerant than a tree, and unselfish, their lives were totally for others. They were always giving proper honor to all Vaisnavas. They were never criticizing others, whether those persons were wrong or right - especially worldly persons. They are always praising the devotees, Krsna, bhakti and so on.

 

 

Never criticize anyone, whether he is a very wretched person or lusty, no matter what he is doing. If you do, all those bad qualities will come into you. Give proper respect to all, and don't have any ambition or desire to be respected. You should especially follow Srila Rupa Gosvami and Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. Accept whatever is favorable for bhakti. Whatever is unfavorable for bhakti, whether it is your body, friends, society, wife, children, wealth, or even your life, you will try to give up. Do these things properly.

 

 

What is the first thing to do? You should accept any transcendental guru - even if he is a madhyama-adhikari. He must be selfless, expert in all kinds of siddhanta and in removing all kinds of doubts, and he should never have any worldly desires. Then, duly take diksa initiation in the real sense. Daily chant harinam, continuously, and whatever mantras Guru Maharaja has given, you should also do daily. This is lacking in all devotees. They do not chant, they do not even have tulasi mala, and still they are telling of themselves, "I am a disciple of Srila Prabhupada" or any other guru. You should know the meaning of your mantra, and you should know who is the predominating Deity of that mantra and what your relationship is with that Deity. You should have strong belief in those Deities, that they will support and nourish you. This is called prapatti.

 

 

Next is saranagati. If you have belief in Krsna, and you have given yourself at His lotus feet, why are you worried about maintaining your life? If Krsna can create this whole world, this whole universe, in a moment, and you are taking shelter of that very Krsna who is so powerful, why are you worried?

 

 

I have seen so many small dogs with their masters. The master puts a belt around the dog's neck and attaches a chain to that belt. The then master takes him walking. If that small dog sees a very big dog coming, he wants to jump and bark. When he is walking alone, however, he will run away. He is proud when he is with his master. He thinks that his master has a gun, and if anyone attacks he will shoot him. He is such a powerful master.

 

 

Similarly, if you have taken shelter of the Supreme Master, who is so powerful, why fear for your maintenance? If you are worried for this, you have not really surrendered. There is a loophole at the root, and this is why you want to have a very good house, good family, and so on. You have no faith in Krsna. This is lacking. Even though our gurus have opened our eyes to see, still we try to keep our eyes closed. Try to see and understand all these things, then suddha-sattva may come. Otherwise, how can it come?

 

 

If the devotees' hearts are not melting in Goloka Vrndavana Dhama by seeing all your endeavors, they will not pray to Krsna, and without their prayers, Krsna's mercy cannot come. Krsna's mercy is dependent on His devotees' mercy.

 

 

Try to please devotees. If you cannot please your gurudeva who always wants to sprinkle his mercy, if you cannot serve him, if you cannot make his heart melt, then how can you receive mercy? There must be a loophole at the root of your bhakti. Something is wrong. If you do not know all truths about the mantra, how will the effect of the mantra come? How can it come? You are planting the seed on barren land, on sand, and yet you think, "Very soon it will sprout."

 

 

Even one name, in one mantra, chanted even one time, can give the result. Yet, your gurudeva has told you that you should practice chanting this mantra ten times, or one hundred and eight times, or even more than this. Nyasa means to take a sankalpa, a vow, that, "I will follow all these principles." You must promise, "I will certainly do all these things." That is nyasa. If you are not really following, you will not get the result.

 

 

First you should obey Srila Rupa Gosvami's Upadesamrta, and then Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami's Manah-Siksa:

 

 

gurau gosthe gostalayisu sujane bhusura-gane

sva-mantre sri-namni vraja-nava-yuva-dvandva-sarane

sada dambham hitva kuru ratim apurvam atitara

maye svantar bhratas catubhir abhiyace dhrta-padah

 

 

["O my dear brother, my foolish mind! Taking hold if your feet, I humbly pray to you with sweet words. Please give up all pride and quickly develop sublime and incessant rati for Sri Gurudeva, Sri Vraja-dhama, the residents of Vraja, the Vaisnavas, the brahmanas, your diksa-mantra, the holy names of the Supreme Lord, and the shelter of Kisora-Kisori, Sri Sri Radha-Krsna, the eternally youthful divine couple of Vraja." (Sloka One)]

 

 

You should follow all these practices. Don't neglect your diksa-mantras and harinama. Make your goal rati. First comes sraddha, then nistha, ruci, asakti, and then rati. You should have this rati for chanting nama, but first have it for guru, both siksa and diksa-guru. The next word in the sloka is gostha. Have rati for the dhama: Nandagram, Varsana, Radha-kunda, Puri, and all the pastime places. The next word is gostalayisu, love and affection for those who are there in the dhama: Nanda Baba, Yasoda Mayia, and all others. Have rati for Rupa Gosvami, Sanatana Gosvami, and for all those who are in our sampradaya. Also, you should honor those who are not in our sampradaya, those in the Nimbaditya sampradya, and all others. You should also give proper respect to them. Don't criticize them. We should also respect brahmanas. Even if they are not one-pointed to Krsna, still try to honor them. Especially have love and affection for harinama and our mantras, and also for Radha-Krsna Yugala and Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

 

In this way give proper respect to all, have abundant rati, love and affection, for all of these, and go on practicing. Then, the mercy of the Vaisnavas, the mercy of Krsna will come and you can realize all these things. This is our objective now. We should therefore follow all these principles and try to realize them.

 

 

Gaura Premanande!

 

 

 

[gHari]

It's in the bag. Maximum Max!

[Vigraha]

quotes by CCC

"That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world."

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>From Bhagavad Gita Introduction:

"The Lord says, na tad bhasayate suryo na sasanko na pavakah. yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama. One who can approach that spiritual sky is not required to descend again to the material sky.

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

That mean that there is a posibility to fall down from the spiritual planets, is not an obligation because you are not entagled by your karma so you don't have to return, but if you want to descend from the spiritual world to the material world again, you can come.

But when the souls comes to this plane they realize that this material world is hard and almost invariably don't come again to enjoy without Krsna, and if they come again is for preaching or to assist the Lord in other pastimes.

 

"Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back.

Prabhupada: No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become

intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order

of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something.

Now, if somebody comes, 'Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,' I'll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I'll never become." Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108 (San Francisco, February 18, 1967) "END OF QUOTE BY CCC

 

<!-- / message -->75% of the living entities NEVER ever fall down 'consciously' from Goloka or Vaikuntha, and those who have 'fallen or come down sub-consciously' MOST NEVER EVER return to the material world HOWEVER, IT IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW, they ALL still have that choice to pursue their non-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts if they want, but (MOST) choose NEVER AGAIN to leave their service within the pastimes of Lord Krishna.

 

Therefore even in Goloka and Vaikuntha, 25% of the marginal living entities DO make that SELFISH foolish choice and therefore 'think' or 'dream' they are fallen and 'sub-consciously' (only as there secondary nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness, and NEVER AS THEIR NITYA-SIDDHA PERTUAL OR REAL IDENTITY) enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu.

 

It is there within that mahat-tattva cloud cover, the projected secondary consciousness, emanating from ones REBELLIOUS THOUGHTS, RATHER THAN FROM THEIR NITYA-SIDDHA BODY which can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, becomes contained in ethereal and biological vessels fascilitated by Maha-Vishnu in a within His mahat-tattva 'dreaming' phenomenon of time and space (past, present, future, decay, imagination, illusion and impermanence) that does not exist in the perpetual Spiritual Sky established permanantly within the never ending 'PRESENT' surrounding the mahat-tattva.

 

Such temporary ethereal and biological bodies are provided by the presiding Deity of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu and guided (constantly tempted through the mahat-tattva by Maya-Devs’ s’akti, the wife of Maha-Vishnu (also Vishnu tattva) AND AROUND 33,000,000 demigods (jiva-tattva) who are also 'dreaming' as nitya-baddha.

 

The mahat-tattva cloud is a real manifestation like the other three quarters of creation or Spiritual Sky however, unlike the perpetual Spiritual Sky; the mahat-tattva or ‘cloud of the dreaming’ is temporary.

 

In other words the mahat-tattva is simply the place where the marginal living entities go and DREAM with their thoughts of imagination and mistaken desires when they choose to have their ‘moment’ of non-Krishna conscious dreaming however that ‘moment’ can appear to be trillions of years, an almost eternity, then on return to ones rasa body, it will be as if they never left.

 

There is no beginning or end to the creation so in the face of eternity, time has no meaning because no one can measure something that has no beginning or end like all marginal living entities or nitya-siddha-svarupa devotee’s that are said to be emanating from Lord Krishna’s transcendental Vigraha body but have factually always exited without beginning as the Bhagavad Gita as it is tells us.

 

All jiva-tatastha or marginal living entities (‘souls’) therefore are never created nor do they EVER appear from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti as A PLANE SHEET OF CONSCIOUSNESS as some learned Vaishnava scholars, gurus and sanyasi’s believe.

 

EVERY living marginal entity OR JIVA-TATASTHA has a perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body that the jiva-soul has always been in the perpetual 'present' in Goloka for eternity without beginning and without end.

 

Most of the Vedas therefore are dealing with the nitya-baddha secondary aspect of the jiva-tatastha, that is the conditional state of the living entity in the material world (dream) All of us are presently seeing our existence from the viewpoint of that secondary nitya-baddha consciousness and NOT from our Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha 'svarupa' perpetual body that we have all forgotten.

 

Srila Prabhupada “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that I have nothing to do with this material world and that I am simply Krishna’s servant.- Eternal servant., we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this situation” lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

 

Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only”

 

The occurrence of time only exists in the perishable mahat-tattva due to the phenomenon of past, present and future where as only the present exists in perpetual Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.

 

Therefore no one says ones svarupa body is sleeping in Goloka, please understand that once and for all. It is only because of the absence of the time factor that there is no disappearance of ones 'svarupa' in Goloka, therefore it is always there serving Krishna regardless. Eventually when one one’s 'dreaming imaginary self or the nitya-baddha consciousness is dissipated, and one has returned to their full spiritual potential and awareness of their nitya-siddha-svarupa body serving Krishna. Once one has returned one realizes themself as the endless nitya-siddha-svarupa-rasa body, ones so called fall down will be as if it never happened. "Never happened" because there is no past tense as we know it in Goloka.

 

Also a special thanks to His Holiness Ramai Swami Maharaj for his class this morning -

 

"O Lord, with this corpselike body, always full of fear, we bear the burden of the relative happiness of kings, which is just like a dream. Thus we have rejected the real happiness of the soul, which comes by rendering selfless service to You. Being so very wretched, we simply suffer in this life under the spell of Your illusory energy". Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.70.28 <!-- edit note -->

[Guruvani]

You can't establish conclusive siddhanta on "Prabhupada said".

If you can't prove your theory with shastra then you have nothing but a fairytale for people who can't understand Krishna consciousness by reading the books.

"Prabhupada said" some things that aren't shastric Gaudiya siddhanta.

That was just a fable or fairytale he told to nurture the along the derelicts from the 60's that were joining the movement.

 

You can't prove your case with "Prabhupada said".

That is not the Gaudiya process.

It must be shown with shastric evidence.

If you can't do that then all you have is a fairytale.

[Vigraha]

So from ones nitya-siddha perpetual body in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha, the aspect of ones marginal identity (nitya-baddha) may manifest due to ones free will and choice to THINK IMAGINE AND ‘DREAM’ in a separated state from their svarupa body that is endlessly serving Krishna however, in absolute reality one is never separated from their nitya-siddha-svarupa body and ones rasa with Krishna.

 

Factually, due to the eternal 'present’ ones relationships of servitude NEVER interrupted BECAUSE WHEN THE DREAM IS OVER IT WILL BE AS IF THEY NEVER LEFT, Srila Prabhupada says we only dream or think we are fallen, in actual fact we are NEVER fallen and only dream for a moment we are separated from Krishna.

 

That IMAGINARY, THINKING AND DREAMING condition of sub-conscious restricted awareness is called the nitya-baddha conscious condition that enters the mahat-tattva to become covered by the illusion of moving between birth & death, heaven and hell, past & future where that ‘moment’ for the nitya-siddha can be trillions upon trillions of years to the nitya-baddha condition of consciousness.

 

Srila Prabhupada- Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.

 

In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centred choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming.

 

Our perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa Krishna Conscious body does not fall and can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

 

We can simply choose to do what we desire, think, dream, contemplate or imagine an exitence without Krishna because that is the freedom all marginal living entities are endowed with.

 

In this way any marginal living entity in Goloka or Vaikuntha have the propensity to knowingly turn their back on Krishna and the perpetual body they eternally serve Krishna as. Even though most marginal living entities never ever fall down 'consciously' from Goloka, they still have that choice to pursue their non-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts if they mediate on such things.

 

EVERY living marginal entity has a perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body that they have always been for eternity without beginning and without end. Most of the Vedas therefore are dealing with the nitya-baddha secondary aspect of the jiva-tatastha, seeing everything from the viewpoint of that secondary nitya-baddha consciousness and not from their nitya-siddha perpetual body that they have forgotten.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972

 

Srila Prabhupada "We have come from God. Just like one man is put in the prison house. He has come from his free home. By his work he is criminal; therefore he is put into the prison house. Similarly, we are all part and parcel of God. Our real home is Vaikuntha”,. Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.12.2 Bombay, April 13, 1976

 

Srila Prabhupada “But we have come here. How we have come, that is a very mysterious thing; but we are part and parcel. Why you are jumping with a jet plane to go to the moon planet? If you prepare yourself… There are methods; otherwise, why Krishna says, yanti deva-vrata? “If you want to go to the higher planetary system, you prepare yourself in this life. You’ll be next life…” Tyaktva deham: “You shall go there. Or if you want to remain, go to the planets of Pitrloka, you can go there. And if you prepare yourself to come to Me, back to home, back to God, you can do that.” So what should be our aim of life? We shall go to the higher planetary system or back to home, back to Godhead? “Back,” we say, because we have come from God. Just like one man is put in the prison house. He has come from his free home. By his work he is criminal; therefore he is put into the prison house. Similarly, we are all part and parcel of God. Our real home is Vaikuntha. But we have come here. How we have come, that is a very mysterious thing; but we are part and parcel. Somehow or other… Bhaktivinoda Thakura has sung, anadi karama phale, padi ’bhavar?ava-jale. Somehow or other we have fallen this. Therefore the real aim of life, how to get out of this bhavar?ava, nescience, that is the aim of life. If we remain again like the monkeys and cats and dogs, eating, sleeping, mating, and dancing, that is not very responsible life. Every man should be responsible." Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.12.2 by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Bombay, April 13, 1976

 

We just have to become ‘Krishna consciously pure enough to realize it’

the ‘svarupa bodily identity’ of the marginal living always exists without any beginning or end. Those of us trapped in the material world in our secondary conscious state can only revive the memory (service) of what already exists because one is originally and perpetually nitya siddha eternally as Srila Prabhupada explains to us. He further explains we only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are fallen but in actual fact our ‘svarupa’ bodily identity is never fallen.

 

Question - Are we dreaming the material world that is a real but a temporary phenomenon?

 

Answer - The marginal living entity or jiva tatastha always has access to a twofold reality because of their marginal stastus that gives them the free will to choose, one as who they really are as their ‘svarupa bodily form’ that is there eternal nitya-siddha bodily identity that is always Krishna Conscious, and the other is their dreaming secondary consciousness called nitya-baddha that can only exist in a temporary changing atmosphere devoid of any bodily form, until one is provided one within the unpreserved maha-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

 

It is hard for us judge how Krishna gives out his causeless mercy and realizations to His dear devotees? Just because we may not understand that technically we are always with Krishna and presently we are only ‘dreaming’ or ‘thinking” we are not with Him, does not mean other devotees do understand this and have actually realized this truth of Krishna’s creation. Just because other cannot understand this, do we believe their misconceptions that we have originated from the Impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyoti?

 

Bhakti yoga or loving devotion to Lord Krishna and His dear devotees is not based on jnana (knowledge) or imitation; it is purely based on the simplistic teaching of Lord Chaitanya and the congregational chanting of the Hare Krishna Maha Mantra meant to deliver us back home back to Godhead – from whence we originally came from.

 

The introduction of the Bhagavad-Gita as it is tells us

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position”

[Guruvani]

 

It is only because of the absence of the time factor that there is no disappearance of ones 'svarupa' in Goloka, therefore it is always there serving Krishna regardless. Eventually when one one’s 'dreaming imaginary self or the nitya-baddha consciousness is dissipated, and one has returned to their full spiritual potential and awareness of their nitya-siddha-svarupa body serving Krishna. Once one has returned one realizes themself as the endless nitya-siddha-svarupa-rasa body, ones so called fall down will be as if it never happened. "Never happened" because there is no past tense as we know it in Goloka.

 

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Another fairytale myth that there is no time in the spiritual world.

There is time in the spiritual world.

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.11.38

 

kālo 'yaḿ dvi-parārdhākhyo

nimeṣa upacaryate

avyākṛtasyānantasya

hy anāder jagad-ātmanaḥ

 

SYNONYMS

kālaḥ — eternal time; ayam — this (as measured by Brahmā's duration of life); dvi-parārdha-ākhyaḥ — measured by the two halves of Brahmā's life; nimeṣaḥ — less than a second; upacaryate — is so measured; avyākṛtasya — of one who is unchanged; anantasya — of the unlimited; hi — certainly; anādeḥ — of the beginningless; jagat-ātmanaḥ — of the soul of the universe.

 

 

TRANSLATION

The duration of the two parts of Brahmā's life, as above mentioned, is calculated to be equal to one nimeṣa [less than a second] for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is unchanging and unlimited and is the cause of all causes of the universe.

 

 

Purport (excerpt):

In the spiritual world there is undoubtedly time, but it has no control over activities. Time is unlimited, and the spiritual world is also unlimited, since everything there exists on the absolute plane.

 

So, your fairytale can't hold up on the fairytale that there is no time in the spiritual world because that fairytale is also another ISKCON myth.

[Guruvani]

 

 

The introduction of the Bhagavad-Gita as it is tells us

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position”

The "Prabhupada said" cult only works on other similar persons from the "Prabhupada said" cult.

For the rest of us we aren't convinced just because "Prabhupada said".

 

Prabhupada said things as part of a preaching strategy that were more myth than fact.

So, we don't blindly accept the fairytale as fact.

It was a preaching device Srila Prabhupada thought was useful for introducing Krishna consciousness to the western world.

 

Well, times have changed and Gaudiya Vaishnavism is spread all over the world and ISKCON is not the only Gaudiya Vaishnava sect in the western world now.

 

Now, it is time to get beyond the fairytales so ISKCON and the followers of Srila Prabhupada don't look stupid in the eyes of the international Gaudiya Vaishnava community who know shastra and know the fairytale is a myth.

[Vigraha]

 

 

 

The correct understanding of what time is explained very simply that even our good mate Gurvani can understand

 

The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you are experiencing in this inert world. Material time is divided into past, present and future. But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time.

Every event in Goloka and Vaikuntha (the Personal <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> conscious active part of the Spiritual World or Brahmajyoti is ever present.

 

This is NOT the case in mahat-tattva and the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that takes up 25% of the spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti.

Whatever we speak or describe in the material world is under the influence of material space and material time. therefore, whenever we make statements such as, ‘the Jivas were created’, such a concept is not true because they were never created, they have always existed as their full bodily ‘svarupa’ potential and real self in Goloka but sometimes, due to free will and choice, ‘think or believe and assume ’ they are not that eternal ‘svarupa’ body. Such thoughts immediately place them ‘sub-consciously’ in the divided time of past, present and future within ethereal and biological material bodies that has a side effect of decay and importance within its own separate reality called the mahat-tattva, ‘thereafter the Jivas became bound by Maya

The spiritual world of Goloka and Vaikuntha are perpetually manifest in the eternal present’, ‘there is no aspect of maya in the original NITYA-SIDDHA svarupa constitution of the Jiva

Material time therefore ONLY influences the nitya baddha secondary conscious characturistics of the marginal living entity.

 

For this reason, no statement concerning the NITYA-BADDHA is exempt from the jurisdiction of material time. Feelings of past present and future naturally are part and parcel of the lower secondary nitya- baddha consciousness but in the face of ones real genuin authentic nitya-siddha bodily, that who one really is without beginning or end . Therefore, while experiencing the import of the descriptions of the spiritual world an spiritual objects, people who are devoted to pure thinking experience the changeless nature of present time. Be very careful in this respect

Srila Prabhupada clearly has told us that actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because they (their svarupa body) never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down.

Srila Prabhupada however further explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen (here Srila Prabhupada is refering to our perpetual svarupa body)

Srila Prabhupada explains we are not fallen because we only 'think' or imagine' ourselves asour non-Krishna Conscious dreaming nitya-baddha lower self that projects us out of Goloka and Krishnas pastimes that performed in the 'eternal present' as the Brahma samhita tells us. So in actual fact we don't go anywhere, we simply imagine we do.

[Vigraha]

Eventually when one one’s 'dreaming imaginary self or nitya-baddha consciousness' is finally dissipated from the mahat-tattva, like a fog lifting and revealing the sun or one's true nitya-siddha identity, only then does one become aware of their full Krishna Conscious spiritual potential as their real self (nitya-siddha-svarupa body) serving Krishna.

 

It is at that 'time', when one has finally re-established themselves as who they really are, (their endless nitya-siddha-svarupa body that is eternally their Krishna Conscious identity), the dark troublesome cloud of past, present and future of the mahat-tattva is lifted and no longer exists just as darkness can no longer exist in the presents of light.

 

 

When one reaches this realization, ones so called fall down will be as if it never happened. "Never happened" because there is no past tense AT ALL in Goloka.

 

Srila Prabhupada – ‘This ordinary living being is of two kinds — nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.’ SB 5.11.12 Purport

 

Then Srila Prabhupada explains how we are all perpetually NITYA-SIDDHA serving Krishna in the eternal 'present' beyond the past, present and future within the mahat-tattva where our illusionay NITYA-BADDHA CONSCIOUSNESS dreams its own imaginary existence.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, (NITYA-BADDHA) but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968.

 

The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you and I are experiencing in this inert world. Material time is divided into past, present and future. But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time where Krishna’s unlimited pastimes are perpetually going on.

 

Every event in Goloka and Vaikuntha (the Personal Krishna conscious active part of the Spiritual World or Brahmajyoti is ever present. This is NOT the case in mahat-tattva and the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that takes up 25% of the spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti.

 

When ever we speak or describe 'time' in the material world, it is always under the influence of material space and an impermanent reality that is under the constant influence of decay and the dualities suffering and enjoying. Krishna says ‘time I am destroyer of the worlds’, Bhagavad gita as it is 11:32, that is, the material worlds.

 

Also whenever we make statements such as, ‘the Jiva tattvas were created’, such concepts are not true because the jiva-tattvas were never created, in fact ALL jiva tattvas have always existed as their full bodily ‘svarupa’ potential and real self in Goloka but sometimes, due to free will and choice, ‘think, believe, dream and assume ’ they are not that eternal ‘svarupa’ body.

 

Such thoughts immediately place them ‘sub-consciously’ in the divided time of past, present and future within ethereal and biological material bodies or vessels that has a side effect of decay, impermanance and ‘self importance’ within its own separate reality called the mahat-tattva. In this way the Jivas, in their secondary nitya-baddha self became bound by Maya’s past, present and future.

 

The spiritual world of Goloka and Vaikuntha are perpetually manifest in the eternal present’, ‘there is no aspect of maya in the original NITYA-SIDDHA svarupa constitution of the Jiva

 

Material time therefore ONLY influences the nitya baddha secondary conscious characteristics of the marginal living entity that can only manifest 'covered' by the mahat-tattva or uncovered (dormant, no active time) as part of the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

 

For this reason, no statement concerning the NITYA-BADDHA is exempt from the jurisdiction of mundane material time and its bye product of impermanence and decay. In this way past present and future naturally are part and parcel of the lower secondary nitya-baddha consciousness but in the face of ones real genuine authentic nitya-siddha bodily, who one really is without beginning or end, the nitya-baddha consciousness is simply an illusion that has only a real but temporary existence.

 

Srila Prabhupada clearly has told us that actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because they (their svarupa body) never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down.

 

Srila Prabhupada however further explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen (here Srila Prabhupada is referring to our perpetual svarupa body)

 

Srila Prabhupada explains we are not fallen because we only 'think' or imagine' ourselves as our non-Krishna Conscious dreaming nitya-baddha lower self that projects us out of Goloka and Krishna’s pastimes that performed in the 'eternal present' as the Brahma samhita tells us. So in actual fact we don't go anywhere, we simply imagine we do.

 

It must be clearly understood that ones svarupa body is NOT sleeping in Goloka, please understand that once and for all, it is only due to the absence of the time factor that there is no disappearance of ones 'svarupa' in Goloka, therefore it is always there serving Krishna regardless.

 

Eventually when one one’s 'dreaming imaginary self or nitya-baddha consciousness' is finally dissipated from the mahat-tattva, like a fog lifting and revealing the sun or one's true nitya-siddha identity, only then does one become aware of their full Krishna Conscious spiritual potential as their real self (nitya-siddha-svarupa body) serving Krishna.