Fall theory is worse than Mayavada says Narasingha Maharaja

[mahak]

thanks gHari, over and over. Srila Prabhupada is guru because he is humble. He clearly states that he doesnt make things up.

 

So his origin theory is "somehow or other, from time memorial, we have become conditioned."

 

It happened. This is reality. It doesnt even matter how it happened. What matters is Visnu smaranam, how to remember Krsna, how to revive our consciousness.

 

So, the jnani will sapend lifetimes more analyzing how the hell he forgot, will even speculate that he never knew despite the contrary vision of Srila Vyasadeva. But until he focuses on sadhana bhakti, a scientific device to enhance the memory, the revival of lost consciousness, he just rambles on about stuff our Guru covered by the phrase, all that is pertenent, "somehow or other, from time memorial, we have become conditioned."

 

Where does Prabhupada teach falldown theory (or dispute it, for that matter)? He doesnt. He is sent by Krsna to revive our original consciousness, not dwell on the hell we have been through. He enables rememberance, he doesnt care for the science or mechanics of forgetfulness.

 

So, go back and forth, and when yall find out what happened, write it down somewhere.

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Beggar]

 

Where does Prabhupada teach falldown theory (or dispute it, for that matter)? He doesnt. He is sent by Krsna to revive our original consciousness, not dwell on the hell we have been through. He enables rememberance, he doesnt care for the science or mechanics of forgetfulness.

 

Yet both Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur both taught about the tatastha origins of the jiva soul in an extensive and in depth manner. Were they not also sent by Krsna to revive our original consciousness? Many of Srila Prabhupada's followers make the mistake of viewing him out of relation to the previous acaryas. The fall and dream apasiddhantas cannot stand in the light of Jaiva Dharma.

[suchandra]

 

So his origin theory is "somehow or other, from time memorial, we have become conditioned."

 

It happened. This is reality. It doesnt even matter how it happened.

 

Somehow it seems that this is the unuttered spirit of our sampradaya, originating from Lord Brahma. In order to be linked to the mercy of the disciplic succession better adopt this policy and avoid any shooting foreward, may it look great or whatever.

[mahak]

I think prabhupada made this issue clear. Its not about other acaryas. Its not about disputes or differences. Why didnt haridas plow those rascals who tried to kill him..Madhavacarya did. He was ultimate ninja fighter and wouldnt take anyones abuse. Are they at odds?

 

The mistake is not viewing him out of relation to previous acaryas, the mistake is a serious infraction of viewing previous acaryas out of relation to the one sent by Lord Nityananda to retrieve us.

 

Not to be offensive here, but if one looks at acarya lines thru Bhaktisiddhanta and Bhaktivinode, I always see a bunch of names following these past acaryas, and as often as not, Srila Prabhupadas name is ommitted. I get my bhaktisiddhanta and bhaktivinode from prabhupada, I dont move his aside so we can hear5 from our (me and pra bhupadas) guru.

 

Thats what this is all about, why dont yall name this thread, "How lame and misguided Srila Prabhupada was".

 

mahak

[Vigraha]

 

I think prabhupada made this issue clear. Its not about other acaryas. Its not about disputes or differences. Why didnt haridas plow those rascals who tried to kill him..Madhavacarya did. He was ultimate ninja fighter and wouldnt take anyones abuse. Are they at odds?

 

The mistake is not viewing him out of relation to previous acaryas, the mistake is a serious infraction of viewing previous acaryas out of relation to the one sent by Lord Nityananda to retrieve us.

 

Not to be offensive here, but if one looks at acarya lines thru Bhaktisiddhanta and Bhaktivinode, I always see a bunch of names following these past acaryas, and as often as not, Srila Prabhupadas name is ommitted. I get my bhaktisiddhanta and bhaktivinode from prabhupada, I dont move his aside so we can hear5 from our (me and pra bhupadas) guru.

 

Thats what this is all about, why dont yall name this thread, "How lame and misguided Srila Prabhupada was".

 

mahak

 

Hari Bol !!

[Beggar]

 

I get my bhaktisiddhanta and bhaktivinode from prabhupada, I dont move his aside so we can hear5 from our (me and pra bhupadas) guru.

 

mahak

I'm assume your saying, " I get my bhaktisiddhanta and bhaktivinode from prabhupada, I dont move him aside so we can hear from our (me and prabhupada's) [Gaudiya Math] guru."

In an era when their are myriad voices interpreting Srila Prabhupada and all saying that they are only taking his teachings "as it is" it helps to look at the writings of his guru and param guru to get some perspective. We have have already quoted where Prabhupada suggested that we read Jaiva Dharma. He certainly desired to publish it but was limited by time. As quoted many times, he also saw Sridhar Maharaja as a siksa guru. If your position is so neutral then why were you "hari boled" by Vigrah das Sleeper-Vadi?

[mahak]

becvause sleepervads are those who agree with the proposals of the songwriter who sings "Jiv Jago" Im a forgetvadi, and maybe there maybe a connection between sleep and forget. But I dont compare sleep with existance in brahman, because there is no-self in brahmana, whereas, in sleep, there is just alternative consciousness.

 

Srila Prabhupada minimizes why we fell, because all this eternity in this quarter section of mahat-tattwa is of no significance. He was asked specifically once about rememberance of material positions after we become fully krsna consciousness. His answer was that it didnt even happen it is so insignificant. His position is that we are also in illusion about how long we have spent in this eternity of forgetfulness. Even Lord Brahma blinks an eye while thousands of civilizations are born and crumble under layers of lava floes. And he resides in the material world on siddhaloka. And he himself discovers his own insignificance, per that wonderful story in Teachings of Lord Chaitanya, when a mere servant of Narayana asks, "which brahma are you?"

 

Forgetfulness is MAYA. She biows to the Lord, she is His subserviant. The eternity of forgetfulness, spoken of here as Nitya Baddha, is also subservient to nitya siddha. The spell of nitya baddha can be broken, by visnu smaranam. Visnu smaranam is divyajnana, the gift of guru from Lorde Nityananda.

 

we are not speaking about a myriad of voices. I am not disputing Sridhar nor the precepts of Jaiva dharma. I do reject the notion that Srila Prabhupada appointed Sridhar as a siksa for his disciple, havent we been thru this appointment scenario before? And I do have evidence from ChCh that disputes between acaryas happen, but there is grave consequences for non-advanced neophytes to take sides with mu ndane reasonings.

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[mahak]

Oh, BTW, thanks for the tip. I havent even read Vigraha lately because I didnt like something else he wrote awhile back. I have now, and dont find a lot of fault in his recent posts. So, he gets labeled for this?

 

Im going back to sleep, gnite.

[shiva]

 

I have some thoughts on the subject.

 

 

 

 

This verse must be understood properly.

It is easy to take this verse and extrapolate a false conclusion.

 

This verse actually substantiates the conclusion that the conditioned living entities originate on the platform of santa-rasa as described in this statement of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur.

 

"Brahmana and Vaisnava" entitled Harijana-khanda:

 

 

 

How have I come to that conclusion one might ask?

 

What Bhaktisiddhanta is talking about has to be understood in the context of santa rasa (in this usage of the term) being cognate with the teaching that the jiva originates from Brahman. In this conception the jiva is born from Brahman where that relationship with the Lord is neutral (unconscious) and therefore can be categrized in the lowest level of rasa with the Lord (santa rasa). Santa rasa covers more ground then just that though, for example, when a yogi or jnani understands the true nature of the relationship between God and the soul, but has not begun to furthur develop a relationship with the Lord, then his relationship with the Lord is also considered to be in santa rasa.

 

 

 

First, we must understand the progressive levels of love of Godhead which can be divided into nine varieties, beginning with attraction and extending up to ecstatic love and finally up to the topmost ecstatic love [mahābhāva].

 

The first stage or the first level of love of Godhead is known as prema.

Prema is the innate natural love that every soul has for the soul of his own soul - the Supersoul (Paramatma).

Everyone loves his own soul.

Everyone naturally loves the soul of his own soul - the Supersoul, even if they don't know him as such.

 

Mahaprabhu explained to Sanatan Goswami that this prema (nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-prema) is the most fundamental and elementary form of love of Godhead that can be realized by the shanta-bhaktas in shanta-rasa.

 

 

 

Beyond prema is the first advanced platform of love of Godhead - raga.

Then comes anuraga, bhava and ultimately mahabhava.

 

So, Mahaprabhu doesn't say that raga, anuraga or bhava is already in the heart of the conditioned living entity.

He says that "prema" is already in the heart of the living entity and it can be awakened.

 

As shown in the verse above, this prema that Mahaprabhu says is in the heart of every living entity is simply the most basic and elementary platform of love of Godhead and that shanta-bhaktas can attain UP TO that level of love of Godhead.

 

When love of Godhead surpasses the level of prema it is called "raga".

Then after that comes "anuraga", "bhava" and ultimately "mahabhava".

 

So, really, Mahaprabhu again confirms in his teachings that the original constitutional position of the conditioned living entities is shanta-rasa where the most basic level of love of Godhead - prema can be realized in the perfection of shanta-rasa.

 

I think you are going too far with the claim that the "constitutional" position of the nitya-baddha jiva is in santa rasa. There is a difference between original and constitutional. Constitutional means inherent and essential within or part of a thing. Therefore whatever is constitutional to a thing cannot be separated from that thing. Since the jivas do not stay in that original santa rasa position therefore it is not the constitutional position of the jiva. Mahaprabhu therefore tells us:

 

Madhya 20.108-109

 

jivera 'svarupa' haya -- krishnera 'nitya-dasa'

krishnera 'tatastha-sakti' 'bhedabheda-prakasa'

suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya

svabhavika krishnera tina-prakara 'sakti' haya

It is the living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krishna because he is the marginal energy of Krishna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krishna has three varieties of energy.

 

What Mahaprabhu is saying is the constitutional position is something which will always be with the jiva i.e. being tatastha and being a servant.

 

 

However, the higher levels of love of Godhead - pure love of Godhead without adulteration must be acquired from beyond ourselves.

It comes from Krishna.

 

Srila Prabhupada explains in this purport:

 

 

 

 

So, unadultered love of Godhead must be bestowed upon the living entity as an emanation from Sri Krishna.

It is not said to be innately in the soul.

Apparently, the prema that is innately in the heart of the conditioned soul is a form of adulterated prema because pure prema must emanate from Lord Krishna and become bestowed upon the loving devotee of Krishna.

 

In the conditioned soul the prema is adulterated. But the soul does not start off as conditioned, so the prema is not adulterated until that occurs. I wouldn't say that the "prema that is innately in the heart of the conditioned soul is a form of adulterated prema", because innately implies something intrinsic or inherent or original (as in born with), when in fact the adulterated prema is a temporary affliction, pure prema is innate but becomes covered over:

 

nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-prema 'sādhya' kabhu naya

śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya

Pure love for Kṛṣṇa is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens.

 

 

 

When this prema emanates from the living entity it is adulterated and directed at the material illusion.

When prema emanates from Lord Krishna and is bestowed upon the living entity than THAT PREMA is pure and makes the devotee into a pure lover of Krishna.

 

 

 

What is being explained in other terms can be expressed as: the jiva's loving bliss seeking propensity when perverted by selfishness becomes conditioned and is directed at trying to exploit selfishly the energy of the Lord. When the jiva is the recipient of the Lord's mercy then the Lord bestows His Hladini sakti (Sri Radha) upon the jiva. Then by and through Her mercy the devotee becomes a pure lover of God. This is more esoteric then one might think at first glance.

[Beggar]

 

Disciple: In the Bhagavad-gita, Krishna says:

bahunam janmanam ante

jñanavan mam prapadyate

vasudevah sarvam iti

sa mahatma sudurlabhah

(Bg. 7.19)

["After many, many births, the jñani, person in knowledge (who happens to achieve the association of My pure devotee) finally comes to understand that the whole universe of moving and stationary beings is of the nature of Vasudeva, alone, in as much all are subordinate to Vasudeva. (I, as Vasudeva am the source and substance of all that be.) Having grasped this conception, he surrenders unto Me. Know such a great soul to be extremely rare."]

What exactly is the meaning, here?

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: From 'brahma' conception, the different installments follow. In brahma realisation, there is a 'mass' of consciousness: 'all-consciousness'. Then, the nest step will come: the consciousness is of individual character – with deeper vision, individuality is added to consciousness. There is consciousness plus individuality.

Consciousness and Personality

In fact, no consciousness can exist without individuality, without personality. So, the consciousness is personal: personality and consciousness, they cannot be separated, one from the other. What is differentiated from personality, that is only the halo of the personality – it is something like that. And that 'halo' – that brahma – is also the combination of minutest personality, of souls¹.

Substance is of two kinds: ksara, or changing, perishable; and aksara, unchanging, eternal. In the Bhagavad-gita (15:16) Lord Krishna says: ksarah sarvani bhutani – whatever we see in the changing aspect of the world, that is called ksara. And what is unchangeable is called aksara. Then, He says:

yasmat ksaram atito 'ham

aksarad api cottamah

ato 'smi loke vede ca

prathitah purusottamah

(BG 15:18)

"My existence transcends both of these two substances, ksara – aksara. So, I am purusottamah – My name is 'Purusottama'. My glories are sung in the world and in the scriptures, as Purusottama, the Supreme Person."

'Purusottama' means Vasudeva. So, bahunam janmanam ante...; after many births, when the jñanis, those of the impersonal school, come to understand that the Prime Cause of the consciousness of their quest is a personal one, then they come to conceive of Vasudeva.

Real Devotion – Most Rare

But such jñanis are very rarely to be found. Mostly, jñanis cannot cross this line. They are lost there:

ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninas

tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha buddhayah

aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah

patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad anghrayah

(SB 10:2:32)

["O lotus-eyed Lord, although non-devotees who accept severe penances and austerities to achieve the highest position may think themselves liberated, their intelligence remains impure. They simply speculate in various ways and do not seek the means to take shelter of You. Because they have no regard for Your lotus feet, they simply fall down from their position of imagined superiority into material existence again."]

Generally, it is the fate of the jñanis to climb up to the highest position with great effort, and then, when they cannot grasp that 'consciousness' means 'person' – they cannot cross that understanding – they have to revert back. They have to come back, fall back. And for those who can cross this line, who can understand that: "Yes, consciousness means person – a Big Personality. I am small...;" bhakti begins there. The relation of subordination of the lower to the Higher, that comes into effect. And, sa mahatma sudurlabhah – such a person among the jñanis is very rarely to be found, who can take the positive connection of the higher aspect of life. Mostly they come back, they have to come back from there. After much penance, they climb up to that high mark, but they cannot accommodate that "the higher entity must be dealt with devotion," so they have to come back.

Personality with Potency

But those who realise: vasudevah sarvam iti, that Vasudeva – Purusottama – is personal, they can 'cross the line' and enter Vaikuntha, the service area proper.

And there, we are told, gradually as their vision grows more and more, they can find potency on the side of the personal God. Then they become the devotees of Lakshmi-Narayana, and enter completely into Vaikuntha-seva. And in that service, we find awe, reverence; there are sastric (scriptural) rules, and also examples of the higher-realised souls, to guide them.

The Search for Full Engagement

And in that Vaikuntha-seva, if the soul does not find the whole of his innate nature having full engagement, there will be some sort of thirst, some inner tendency which cannot find any corresponding relation to satisfy itself. And when he feels this kind of urge from within, he has to search after another rasa², for a purer, more friendly service than the filial service³.

And ultimately the madhura-rasa service – the sweetheart's service, in consorthood – urges him to go up. It urges him to go up, and to go deeper. And gradually, by coming in contact with such (madhura-rasa) agents, he finds his own heart blossoming. And blossoming to its fullest extent, his heart takes him gradually towards Goloka Vrindavana⁴...

The Service of Reality the Beautiful

Then he can see that what was (initially realised as) 'brahma'; then Paramatma, or Vasudeva; then Lakshmi-Narayana, that has gradually come to him as Krishna consciousness, not Narayana consciousness. Superceding Narayana consciousness he comes in contact with Krishna consciousness of the Reality. He is awakened – he finds himself awakened in a plane where he sees the all-connecting, all-harmonising principle is no longer Narayana, but Krishna – He is showing Himself as Krishna. Then he is fully awakened, and at the same time he sees that the environment, and the object of his search, is also fully equipped. This is full-fledged theism.

Full-fledged theism – where the theistic conviction receives its satisfaction in the fullest way. Just as, with the opening of the eye we can see the world, and according to the degree of out sight we come to see the subtlest thing of the environment, so also, by our inner awakenment of the fullest type, we come to a particular world, environment, and that is Vrindavana – Goloka Vrindavana, the land of love. And movement there is spontaneous; and all around, we find the environment only friendly. It is so simple, so friendly; and the dealings of all who are there are filled with so much intimacy.

And in Vrindavana we will find that our thirst for any higher change of environment, of association, no longer needs to be quenched; but there is thirst, eternal thirst, for coming in closer relation with them, closer connection with them. There is no possibility of any higher change of environment – where he has reached is almost final – and now the only remaining thing, is how to come into a more and more close connection with the environment. And that becomes the initiative of our movement there: more and more intimate connection with the environment. The environment is eternal, but in the intimacy of connection – the 'competition' (in loving service), the movement, is there. And the guidance is given according to that.

Merging in Krishna Consciousness

In this way, there is progress. There is some sort of 'necessity', by which the service is moving. And, there is repetition – a kind of 'repetition', but it is ever-fresh, ever-new! It is ever-new, and it is only a question of the time. For example, every day when I am hungry, in the morning, food is tasteful to me, and not always – by the movement of the time, it is like that. In this way, everything is palatable, not stale. In that plane, there is movement of time, but it is eternal. It is managed by yogamaya⁵ in such a way.

And finally, there we will attain the fullest satisfaction of all the inner parts of our system, the wholesale satisfaction of every atom of every constituent part of our spiritual body: priti anga lage kale, priti anga mora – "Every part of my every limb, cries for union with the corresponding part of every limb of the other side." Sambandha – relationship with the environment – may come to such a stage, that every atom consistuting my spiritual body and mind, will aspire after union with every corresponding part of the environment.

In this way, in such a friendly way, so many are moving there, and it is adjusted accordingly by yogamaya. And this is the highest conception.

Priti anga lage kale, priti anga mora – "Every atom of my existence is in loving aspiration with the environment, and that is Krishna. Krishna consciousness has surrounded me." 'Surrounded me' means, "From all sides it has embraced me; I am lost in the thought of Krishna consciousness, with its detailed, elaborate acquaintance. I am merged, merged in the deepest part of Krishna consciousness, where I shall find "Krishna has captured every atom of my existence. Every atom is feeling as if it is experiencing separate pleasure by His embracing..."

This is possible only in consorthood relationship, where every atom has been embraced, captured, by coming into the most intimate connection with Him. It is called adi-rasa, or mukhya-rasa. The name of Madhurya-rasa is adi-rasa, that is, it is the most original, it is the source of all other rasas, and all other rasas are dependent on it. So it is called 'adi-rasa'. And, mukhya-rasa: the sum total of all 'rasas' – their gist, their essence, is represented here. We are told like that.

And Mahaprabhu came with this gift – madhurya-rasa. It is anarpita carim cirat, "that which was never distributed before" – that of which, it is considered, any distribution was not possible previously, before Him.

Highest Revelation

In Bhaktivinode Thakur's book Jaiva Dharma, we find that one Vaisnava is asking his Gurudeva; "Devotion, it is eternal; but why do you say that it came from Mahaprabhu?" Then his Guru, Paramahamsa Babaji, is saying, "I visited Vrindavana and asked the eternal servitor of Sri Chaitanyadeva, Sanatana Goswami: "This anarpita carim cirat – "which has never been dealt with before" – what is the meaning underlying it?" Then Sanatana Goswami replied: "Bhakti is eternal; in 'Narada-bhakti-sutra', 'Sandilya-sutra', all such scriptures, this has been given – but the type of devotion which Mahaprabhu came with, which we meet after the advent of Mahaprabhu Sri Chaitanyadeva, that was not previously at any time open to the ordinary person. So, it is called 'anarpita carim'. And what is that standard of devotion? It is this: complete surrender to Krishna in consorthood, where every atom of the jiva-soul gets welcomed and embraced by the corresponding atom of Krishna consciousness – madhura-rasa. That was not open to the public before. This is my finding, my faith. You may accept, or not accept..." Sanatana Goswami told like this to that Vaisnava: "This is my prvate conception – you may take it, or not." This was his reply.

The World of Dedication

So devotion has its beginning; the beginning of devotional life is here, where Krishna says 'vasudevah sarvam iti...' ("I, Vasudeva, am the source and substance of all that be" – BG 7:19). Then, the beginning of bhakti, the primary admission into the devotional school above jñana (knowledge) and vairagya (renunciation), that is santa-rasa ('passive' relation with the Lord). And from there, the gradation: dasya-rasa (servitude); then sakhya-rasa (fraternity); then vatsalya-rasa (parenthood); then madhura-rasa (conjugal love). All this is given in details in Ramananda-samvada⁶.

In this way, bhakti is going up. Systematically, we are to understand, and digest, digest what is bhakti. But, in the beginning, we are to have a broad conception of the positive world, the world of dedication.

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: From 'brahma' conception, the different installments follow. In brahma realisation, there is a 'mass' of consciousness: 'all-consciousness'. Then, the nest step will come: the consciousness is of individual character – with deeper vision, individuality is added to consciousness. There is consciousness plus individuality.

 

But, the sleepervadis say that this is impersonal mayavada.

You are saying that there was a time when we were ONE with Krishna.

 

Actually, is this the fact?

Was our original "form" the shared form of Krishna?

 

Was there a situation where we were actually integrated into the person and form of Krishna without being a "separated part-and-parcel".

 

What does "separated" mean"

Think about it..............

 

Seperated means that at one point we were NOT seperate.

 

Our original form was the form of Krishna or Vishnu (not different).

We were not the whole Krishna, just one photon of energy that came out from within the unlimited depths of the heart of Krishna.

 

I call this philosophy "Krishnavada".

 

Our original form was the the form of the Godhead.

We were not the whole form, just one itty-bitty photon within the form.

Still, our original form was Krishna.

 

Should I present a "Prabhupada said" to prove it?

OK.

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 5.14 purport,

 

 

Beyond the manifested and unmanifested existence of material nature (vyaktāvyakta) is the sanātana nature, which is called the paravyoma, or the spiritual sky. Since that nature is spiritual in quality, there are no qualitative differences there: everything there is spiritual, everything is good, and everything possesses the spiritual form of Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself.

[CCC]

 

But, the sleepervadis say that this is impersonal mayavada.

You are saying that there was a time when we were ONE with Krishna.

 

Actually, is this the fact?

Was our original "form" the shared form of Krishna?

 

Was there a situation where we were actually integrated into the person and form of Krishna without being a "separated part-and-parcel".

 

What does "separated" mean"

Think about it..............

 

Seperated means that at one point we were NOT seperate.

 

Our original form was the form of Krishna or Vishnu (not different).

We were not the whole Krishna, just one photon of energy that came out from within the unlimited depths of the heart of Krishna.

 

I call this philosophy "Krishnavada".

 

Our original form was the the form of the Godhead.

We were not the whole form, just one itty-bitty photon within the form.

Still, our original form was Krishna.

 

Should I present a "Prabhupada said" to prove it?

OK.

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 5.14 purport,

 

Hare Krsna

 

Reading your post you are saying that we come from the heart of Krsna. well, all come from Krsna, even matter, also matter is conscious, there are pastimes when great devotees chant the holy name and the matter is smelted, also you can incarnate as a planet, the planets are living entities like us, Our planet is called mother earth, bhumi, or pachamama by the southamerican cultures and is mother because is female, also the sun has a soul, and that soul is the sun deity or Vivasvan and from him comes the sun's brahmajyoti. So it is a fact that all come from Krsna.

 

So if we have an origin or manifestation from the body of Krsna, we are persons, like father mother and son, if our father and mother Radha-Krsna have a personality and form, we have personality and form like our father and mother. So the soul is not impersonal at all and the soul can't be originated in the brahmajyoti far away from the body of the Lord.

 

Once I read that when Radha and Krsna "meet" infinite jivas are manifested. and also you have quoted:

 

 

Beyond the manifested and unmanifested existence of material nature (vyaktāvyakta) is the sanātana nature, which is called the paravyoma, or the spiritual sky. Since that nature is spiritual in quality, there are no qualitative differences there: everything there is spiritual, everything is good, and everything possesses the spiritual form of Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself.

 

so that mean that we as jiva in our origin are not a formless atom - at least a tiny ball of light floating in the brahmajyoti, this is brahmasayujya who is like suicide for the devotee and is attained by impersonalist from this material world-. The spiritual body is inherent to the soul, is like the fire, fire has light and heat, similarly the living entity has a soul and spiritual body wich are inseparable and non different in nature. at this moment our spiritual body is covered by the differents material layers.

 

 

"Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. EVEN THOUGH HE IS NOT ENGAGED IN SERVING THE SUPREME LORD , he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF SELF REALIZATION, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state. " Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura

 

So, if the soul has an origin that mean that there was a time when he was not serving the Lord (not yet) "due to a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF SELF REALIZATION" and remain in santa rasa. Also Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur said:

 

 

It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports.They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul... gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God...he begins to get back his pure essential nature... - Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada, Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323.

 

and Bhaktivinoda Thakur:

 

 

However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha... material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas. - Srila Bhaktivinoda Takura, Prema-pradipa, p. 83

 

Above Srila Bhaktissidhanta Sarasvati Thakur is saying that we were with Krsna in his sports and also said in another book that we had a relationship with the Lord in santa rasa. For me this is not contradictory because if the soul has an origin that mean that he is not experienced in serving the Lord, but that attitud is almost in a dorman state like a child, therefore the souls that fall down to this world maybe are not very attached to the Lord or are not close and intimate asociates of the Lord "due to a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF SELF REALIZATION" simply because they are new souls without experience and also in the spiritual world there are different levels of surrender. I will continue tomorrow is too late and I am tired...

 

 

 

I have a question where it is said that santa rasa mean being floating in the brahmajyoti?

[suchandra]

 

Hare Krsna

 

Reading your post you are saying that we come from the heart of Krsna. well, all come from Krsna, even matter, also matter is conscious, there are pastimes when great devotees chant the holy name and the matter is smelted, also you can incarnate as a planet, the planets are living entities like us, Our planet is called mother earth, bhumi, or pachamama by the southamerican cultures and is mother because is female, also the sun has a soul, and that soul is the sun deity or Vivasvan and from him comes the sun's brahmajyoti. So it is a fact that all come from Krsna.

 

So if we have an origin or manifestation from the body of Krsna, we are persons, like father mother and son, if our father and mother Radha-Krsna have a personality and form, we have personality and form like our father and mother. So the soul is not impersonal at all and the soul can't be originated in the brahmajyoti far away from the body of the Lord.

 

Once I read that when Radha and Krsna "meet" infinite jivas are manifested. and also you have quoted:

 

 

 

so that mean that we as jiva in our origin are not a formless atom - at least a tiny ball of light floating in the brahmajyoti, this is brahmasayujya who is like suicide for the devotee and is attained by impersonalist from this material world-. The spiritual body is inherent to the soul, is like the fire, fire has light and heat, similarly the living entity has a soul and spiritual body wich are inseparable and non different in nature. at this moment our spiritual body is covered by the differents material layers.

 

 

 

So, if the soul has an origin that mean that there was a time when he was not serving the Lord (not yet) "due to a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF SELF REALIZATION" and remain in santa rasa. Also Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur said:

 

 

 

and Bhaktivinoda Thakur:

 

 

 

Above Srila Bhaktissidhanta Sarasvati Thakur is saying that we were with Krsna in his sports and also said in another book that we had a relationship with the Lord in santa rasa. For me this is not contradictory because if the soul has an origin that mean that he is not experienced in serving the Lord, but that attitud is almost in a dorman state like a child, therefore the souls that fall down to this world maybe are not very attached to the Lord or are not close and intimate asociates of the Lord "due to a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF SELF REALIZATION" simply because they are new souls without experience and also in the spiritual world there are different levels of surrender. I will continue tomorrow is too late and I am tired...

 

 

 

I have a question where it is said that santa rasa mean being floating in the brahmajyoti?

Thanks CCC these are good points. What came in mind when reading your post, it could be, that the title of this topic is quite impudement and not Vaishnava mood. "One should be curious within one's limit", we're like prisoners within a jailhouse and the mood of the topic starter is rather like, "I want access records - why everyone was imprisoned?". This is rather an obstreperous challenge and not the mood of a prisoner who wants amnestied. The topic starter surely has a right to challenge the teachings of the previous acaryas of being diffuse, but will it help on the path of bhakti?

[Guruvani]

 

The topic starter surely has a right to challenge the teachings of the previous acaryas of being diffuse, but will it help on the path of bhakti?

 

Will it help bhakti to think that all the conditioned souls in the material world were at one time associates and playmates of Krishna who got expelled from Goloka and sentenced to eternal damnation?

 

Such a claim is nothing less than blasphemy and a direct assault on the integrity of Lord Krishna and his eternal associates.

 

The fall from Vaikuntha fairytale is WORSE than Mayavada.

It won't help bhakti or spreading Krishna consciousness.

It is a useless theory.

[Kulapavana]

Quote:

I have a question where it is said that santa rasa mean being floating in the brahmajyoti?

----------

 

Every living entity is situated in one of the five principal rasas. Because the santa rasa is a passive relationship it most certainly applies to living entities in the brahmajyoti.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Highest Revelation

In Bhaktivinode Thakur's book Jaiva Dharma, we find that one Vaisnava is asking his Gurudeva; "Devotion, it is eternal; but why do you say that it came from Mahaprabhu?" Then his Guru, Paramahamsa Babaji, is saying, "I visited Vrindavana and asked the eternal servitor of Sri Chaitanyadeva, Sanatana Goswami: "This anarpita carim cirat – "which has never been dealt with before" – what is the meaning underlying it?" Then Sanatana Goswami replied: "Bhakti is eternal; in 'Narada-bhakti-sutra', 'Sandilya-sutra', all such scriptures, this has been given – but the type of devotion which Mahaprabhu came with, which we meet after the advent of Mahaprabhu Sri Chaitanyadeva, that was not previously at any time open to the ordinary person. So, it is called 'anarpita carim'. And what is that standard of devotion? It is this: complete surrender to Krishna in consorthood, where every atom of the jiva-soul gets welcomed and embraced by the corresponding atom of Krishna consciousness – madhura-rasa. That was not open to the public before. This is my finding, my faith. You may accept, or not accept..." Sanatana Goswami told like this to that Vaisnava: "This is my prvate conception – you may take it, or not." This was his reply.

Prema Prayojana Prabu: Bhava-bhakti is composed entirely of samvit-sakti and hladini-sakti. Samvit-sakti means the cognitive potency or the knowledge potency of the Supreme Lord. And hladini-sakti refers to His pleasure potency. When the essence of these two potencies are combined it is called bhakti-sakti. This potency of bhakti is not available in this material world. It exists eternally in the form of a mood in the hearts of the associates of Radha and Krishna in the spiritual sky. When a devotee in this world is practicing sadhana-bhakti very sincerely, and his gurudeva and guru-varga, they bestow mercy upon him, by their invitation then bhakti-sakti, Bhakti-devi herself, comes down from the associates of Krishna in the spiritual sky and touches his heart. The prema in the hearts of the associates of Krishna is very powerful like the sun, and one small ray of that sun descends into this world and touches the heart of the practicing devotee in this world. When that suddha-sattva-viseshatma, the essence of the samvit-sakti and hladini-sakti, touches the heart of the sadhaka, his heart melts. At that time many feelings arise in his heart. One is called bhagavat-prapti-abhilasa, he has a very intense desire to attain his istadeva.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: What is the meaning? That I will have the service of Krishna. An intense desire, so intense desire comes, and suddha sattva comes, that it makes his heart very soft, then it is called bhava.

 

 

Prema Prayojana Prabhu: That means that when this bhava comes in his heart, his heart is restless with so much eagerness and so many desires to serve Krishna.

 

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: You should understand by this example. Your wife is very beautiful, and very sweet to you. But for so many day she has not met you. For a long time, about one year, she was separated from you anywhere, but she telephoned that, "Today I'm coming." Then what kind of feeling will come in your heart? You will be very happy. It may be that your heart will be melting and hairs may be standing on end. This is called, when a devotee thinks that, "Oh, now I will meet Krishna, I will serve Krishna and Radhika," so a very high class of this abhilasa, desire comes, this is called bhagavat-prapti-abhilasa. Then after that?

 

 

Prema Prayojana Prabhu: Anukula-abhilasa.

 

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Then you should explain.

 

 

Prema Prayojana Prabhu: Then another feeling comes into the heart of the devotee. This is called anukula-abhilasa. Anukula means that which is favorable. In other words the devotee knows that there are some particular services which are very, very pleasing to Krishna. Therefore the intense eagerness to render those particular services which are very pleasing to Him arises within his heart.

 

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Like an example. When I will meet Krishna, I will fan Him with camara. Then Krishna will embrace me, and then I will be very happy and I will serve Him in so many ways. When I massage His feet, and then tears will come along with so many ankula abhilasa. Then? Go on

 

 

Prema Prayojana Prabhu: Then the third mood which comes into the heart of the devotee, it is called sauhard abhilasa. In this mood, sauhard-abhilasa, then the devotee is always thinking how Krishna will be happy. It is called suhrt-bhava, he feels very close intimate affection for Krishna, and he is thinking how Krishna will become happy.

 

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: This is called rati. And if we by our sadhana, we keep an object to have a rati or bhava, then your sadhana or process is called sadhana-bhakti, otherwise not. What is the definition of sadhana? Krti sadhya bhavet sadhya Bhava sa sadhanabhidha Nitya siddhasya bhavasya Prakatyam hrdi sadhyata

 

Madhava Maharaja: So now gurudeva ordered me what is the definition of sadhana. Krti sadhya bhavet sadhya Bhava sa sadhanabhidha Nitya siddhasya bhavasya Prakatyam hrdi sadhyata. Srila Rupa Gosvamipada has explained in his Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, kriti sadhya, that is when we do sadhana by our senses, very carefully, and to achieve the mood. Which mood? That which he explained just now, that suddha sattva visesatma, and Sriman Prema Prayojana Prabhu and Srila Gurudeva explained about bhava. We have to keep our aim and object to achieve that bhava. Then which activity we are doing, then it is called sadhana.

[Shakti-Fan]

Srila Narayana Maharaja: The desire to serve the Divine Couple in a mood of Radhika's manjaris is also called krsna-seva-vasana. How does it come? By being in good association and hearing pastimes like these from Sri Guru and Vaisnavas, the greed or the desire to serve Krsna can enter the heart of the sincere disciple by their mercy. This is the desire to serve Krsna: krsna-seva-vasana, and it is the bhakti-lata-bija.

I have given three examples of how krsna-seva-vasana comes by good association: in friendship (sakhya-rasa), in a paternal mood (vatsalya-rasa) and in the mood of a paramour lover (madhurya-rasa). If someone who hears these pastimes develops the desire to serve Krsna in any one of the relationships, we should know that he has been given the bhakti-lata-bija by the causeless mercy of Sri Guru and Krsna. This is the meaning of guru krsna prasade paya, bhakti-lata-bija. If anyone obtains this bija, his life will be successful.

[syamarani dasi:] Srila Gurudeva (Srila Narayana Maharaja) has ordered me to give the translation and meaning of this verse.

After taking births within the millions of species of life from a time immemorial, the living entity finally meets the spiritual master and receives the seed of bhakti from him. The spiritual master does not plant the seed himself; rather he gives it to the disciple who then becomes like a gardener, mali-hana, and plants the seed in his own heart. The disciple then nurtures and nourishes the seed by watering it with the process of hearing and chanting under the guidance of the Guru, and in this way the seed begins to sprout.

This verse has many beautiful deep meanings. It is stated in Caitanya-caritamrta:

nitya siddha krsna prema sadhya kabhu naya

sravanadi suddha citta koraye udaya

["Pure love for Krsna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens." (Cc Madhya 22.108)]

It's not that the spiritual master is giving a seed of something that is not already in the heart of the living entity. Nitya siddha krsna prema: krsna prema is already lying dormant, latent within our hearts, in the same way that the seed of any tree or plant has everything about that tree or plant already within it in potency. For instance, a mango seed has within it the tree, its branches, leaves, flowers, fruit, and even the flavor and aroma of the fruit. Everything is already there in potency. Similarly, krsna-bhakti, krsna-prema, is already in our hearts in seed form. Our entire spiritual form, services, dress, hairstyles everything is there. This is also stated in the verse:

jivera svarupa hoya krsna nitya dasa

krsnera tatastha sakti bedhabeda prakasa

The living entity is eternally Krsna dasa, and therefore everything about him is already there. We are eternally qualitatively the same as Krsna and quantitatively different from Him. If krsna-prema is already there in a dormant state as a seed in the heart, what then is meant by the statement: the spiritual master gives the seed? In answer, the acaryas have given us the example of a certain planetary constellation called svati-naksatra. When the rain comes at the time of this constellation, it has a special effect on different living entities. For instance, the oysters within the ocean have the potency to produce pearls, but unless the rains of the svati-naksatra fall onto the water in which the oyster lives, the pearl is never developed. Likewise, an elephant has the potential to produce a gaja-mukta (elephant pearl), and if that particular rain falls on the elephant, this pearl appears. Another example is the cow; when this rain falls onto the hoof of a cow, gaurocana, a yellow-gold pigment that is used in unguents, appears. Also, the snake has the potential to produce a jewel, and this happens when the svati-naksatra rains fall on its head.

Similarly, every living entity has an eternal relationship with Krsna in one of the five rasas. This relationship is eternal; but it cannot be developed without the inspiration of the spiritual master. It is he who gives "the seed" of inspiration, and teaches the disciple how to water it by proper hearing and chanting.

[Beggar]

S.B. 3.9.11 Bhativendanta Purport,

 

This attachment of the devotee to a particular form of the Lord is due to natural inclination. Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord. Lord Caitanya says that the living entity is eternally a servitor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, every living entity has a particular type of service relationship with the Lord, eternally. This particular attachment is invoked by practice of regulative devotional service to the Lord, and thus the devotee becomes attached to the eternal form of the Lord, exactly like one who is already eternally attached. This attachment for a particular form of the Lord is called svarūpa-siddhi.

 

[Guruvani]

 

S.B. 3.9.11 Bhativendanta Purport,

 

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> This attachment of the devotee to a particular form of the Lord is due to natural inclination. Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord. Lord Caitanya says that the living entity is eternally a servitor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, every living entity has a particular type of service relationship with the Lord, eternally. This particular attachment is invoked by practice of regulative devotional service to the Lord, and thus the devotee becomes attached to the eternal form of the Lord, exactly like one who is already eternally attached. This attachment for a particular form of the Lord is called svarūpa-siddhi.</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

Yes, the living entity has an eternal relationship with Krishna in shanta-rasa.

But, in contact with devotees of higher rasas the devotee can rise higher into a higher rasa.

[Vigraha]

 

maybe a connection between sleep and forget. But I dont compare sleep with existance in brahman, because there is no-self in brahmana, whereas, in sleep, there is just alternative consciousness.

 

Srila Prabhupada minimizes why we fell, because all this eternity in this quarter section of mahat-tattwa is of no significance. He was asked specifically once about rememberance of material positions after we become fully krsna consciousness.

 

His answer was that it didnt even happen it is so insignificant.

 

His position is that we are also in illusion about how long we have spent in this eternity of forgetfulness. Even Lord Brahma blinks an eye while thousands of civilizations are born and crumble under layers of lava floes. And he resides in the material world on siddhaloka. And he himself discovers his own insignificance, per that wonderful story in Teachings of Lord Chaitanya, when a mere servant of Narayana asks, "which brahma are you?"

 

 

 

Interesting post prabhu

 

Like a fog lifts and reveals the sun, one's true eternal nitya-siddha identity is also revealed when the covering of the mahat-tattva is dispelled, only then does one become aware of their full Krishna Conscious spiritual potential as their real self (nitya-siddha-svarupa body) serving Krishna.

[Guruvani]

 

Interesting post prabhu

 

Like a fog lifts and reveals the sun, one's true eternal nitya-siddha identity is also revealed when the covering of the mahat-tattva is dispelled, only then does one become aware of their full Krishna Conscious spiritual potential as their real self (nitya-siddha-svarupa body) serving Krishna.

Yes, that is a very fancy fairytale.

 

I guess setting around dreaming up our own version of Gaudiya siddhanta is becoming contagious.

 

Now, Krishna conciousness is becoming science fiction for story tellers.

[suchandra]

 

Yes, that is a very fancy fairytale.

 

I guess setting around dreaming up our own version of Gaudiya siddhanta is becoming contagious.

 

Now, Krishna conciousness is becoming science fiction for story tellers.

Could be that like they consider that poor people are God, and call them by the name daridra-narayana, or "poor Gods", similiarly somewhere the understanding has sprung up, we're eternal servants of God, but because conditioned by the material energy, daridra-nitya-siddhas, "poor nitya-siddhas"?

[Svarupa]

 

 

The reason why Narasingha Maharaj is wrong and not at all learned with the 'personal' teachings of Vedanta. That is if he did make such an offensive comment that the "fall theory is worse than Mayavada:-

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. At any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, actually we are not fallen at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that I have nothing to do with this material world and that I am simply Krishna’s servant. Lecture Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

 

The various Vedic texts tell us that the Kingdom of Krishna is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes. Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode, this means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continious, everlasting, ceasless, never ending, long lasting, continual jivatma vigraha is ALWAYS there and can NEVER leave because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual means nothing there can decay perish or disappear.

 

As already mentioned and must be constantly emphasised, this means all of us have an eternal form and relationship that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode that is forever there and has always been there, even though from time to time, we are consciously unaware of this unending reality due to our forgetfulness and fantasies that create our mirage like insignificant secondary consciousness (real but temporary) that transmits ‘the thoughts one wants created’ to the material universe in the jiva-bhutah condition consciousness known as the nitya-baddha proviso of existence within the mahat-tattva (material universe).

 

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

 

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their atma-jiva-vigraha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva. All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non Krishna Conscious desires’ cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

 

All self-centered desires, dreams or thoughts expel themselves from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha perpetual portion of the Spiritual Sky due to the selfish independent desires (choices) to no longer want to be with Krishna. To remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha abode, one has to be Krishna Conscious. In this way ones non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams and desires cannot remain there and are transferred as a secondary conscious state (jiva-bhutah) to a far distant transient place in the Spiritual Sky set aside for such temporary thoughts, dreams or desires. Those desires, thoughts and dreams, represented by the jiva-bhutah consciousness, are provided ethereal and biological containers provided by Maha-Vishnu to chase their dream, in some cases for an almost eternity. This place of ‘the dreaming’ is called the mahat-tattva.

 

When one is awake in their biological body, or when one is dreaming in that body, it is still the same ‘self’ existing on two completely different levels of consciousness at the same time, one in the biological body, the other as dreamed up fantasies the biological body is dreaming.

Such dreams appear real while ones biological body is sleeping, so real, one completely forgets the biological body one is dreaming from.

 

In a comparable way, whens ones dreams or thoughts are not Krishna conscious, they create a secondary conscious state called the jiva-bhutah conscious condition. This state of consciousness is then transferred to within the mahat-tattva cloud (material universe), which is real but temporary. In this way, the thoughts of ones lower self, unlike the illusionary unreal dreams one has while their biological body is sleeping, are actually a real reality but subject to decay. Remember, on this level of consciousness, your thoughts are your actions and stays that way while even contained in ethereal vessels within the material heavenly planets. Only in the middle planets of biological vessels are ones thoughts and dreams suppressed.

 

Ones sleeping biological body dreaming, is only an analogy and it does not mean the biological understanding of dreaming is the way we dream ourselves out of the Vaikuntha’s.

There is a difference, ones dreams within Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha are non different from reality or actions. In other words, if one has non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams or desires, they cannot experience those thoughts, desires or dreams in the devotionally uninterrupted KingdomKrishna.

 

To experience such self-centered dreams and desires, the secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah) is extended to the mahat-tattva or material universe. In this way, ones secondary consciousness is transferred to within the confines and restrictions (being contained in ethereal and biological vessels) of mahat-tattva when one is unaware of their real original identity and form (The atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body).

 

As already explained, this means all of us (all marginal living entities) have an eternal shape, form, body and connection that is forever with Krishna in His everlasting Abode which is infinitely eternal even though from moment to moment, we may choose to consciously deny of this everlasting reality due to our desire to experience existence separate from Krishna. Only then, after that choice is made, does forgetfulness enter the equation where ones fantasies of independent grandeur is created by our dreaming secondary consciousness that transmits one to the material universe (mahat-tattva) or nitya-baddha forgetful condition of existence as the jiva-bhutah conscious condition that originates from our perprtual bodily form in Goloka-Vrndavana.

[Shakti-Fan]

Eleven strange terms from the sleepervad lexicon:

 

1)our biological body or vessel dreaming state or secondary consciousness

2)KingdomKrishna

3)atma-jiva-vigraha body counterfeit bodily vessels

4) ethereal and biological vessels

5)perpetual Krishna Conscious

6)ethereal and biological containers

7)the middle planets of biological vessels

8) sleeping biological body dreaming

9)dream ourselves out of the Vaikuntha’s.

10)The atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body

11)our perprtual bodily form in Goloka-Vrndavana.

"If you don't have any common sense ask someone who does" [a famous and unverifiable "Prabhupada said".

[Svarupa]

 

Eleven strange terms from the sleepervad lexicon:

"If you don't have any common sense ask someone who does" [a famous and unverifiable "Prabhupada said".

 

Would you rather I wrote in German or 'Australian'