Fall theory is worse than Mayavada says Narasingha Maharaja

[Guruvani]

 

Would you rather I wrote in German or 'Australian'

 

Better for you is to just stop writing and read the books of Srila Prabhupada for another 20 years before you attempt to explain the Gaudiya siddhanta to anyone.

 

Don't write.

Just read, read and read.

If you stopped writing and started reading you would find out your dreamervada is just a fairytale.

[Svarupa]

 

Better for you is to just stop writing and read the books of Srila Prabhupada for another 20 years before you attempt to explain the Gaudiya siddhanta to anyone.

 

Don't write.

Just read, read and read.

If you stopped writing and started reading you would find out your dreamervada is just a fairytale.

 

Waffle on with your small talk Einstein. Dandavats wouldn't even print your nonsense however, they did printed the correct undertanding.

[Svarupa]

Guruvani, Begger and all other impersonal brahmajyoti origin believers, there is an impersonal stench to how you all have understood the teachings of Vedanta and Srila Prabhupada.

 

The full expression and complete potential of ALL marginal living entities is their perpetual ’svarupa’ body that is eternally situated and established within Goloka or Vaikuntha. Therefore it can then be said that the marginal living entities who have miss-used their free will and chose to enter the maha-tattva, are only temporarily trapped within the material creation, while their undying ‘svarupa’ body is currently laying dormant (hidden from their present awareness) within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

 

Of course this viewpoint is only from the marginal living entities perspective or standpoint wihin the material creation. Their conditional existence continues on until the marginal living entity again becomes responsive enough to perceive their true original Krishna Conscious bodily foundation within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

 

A rudimentary example of this is when someone goes away from watching a movie, putting the dvd player on hold or pause, let me explain -.

 

It should be noted this example does not mean the spiritual pastimes of Goloka can ever be been put on hold or pause for the benefit of the marginal living entity, such a ridicules proposal is not what I am trying to communicate here.On the other hand, from the perspective of the marginal living entity within the material world, their relationship with Krishna HAS been presently put on hold or ‘pause’ while they ‘consciously’ roam around the temporary material creation.

 

This is only an analogy describing that the jiva soul’s relationship with Krishna CAN AND IS put on hold due to them falling out of sync with their nitya-siddha body in Goloka and ‘sub-consciously’ taking shelter within divided time within the maha-tattva. In this way the marginal living entity forgets the eternal devotional realm of Krishna’s pastimes going on in Goloka. Such pastimes are perpetually established and founded within the never-ending ‘present’, which is the reality of Goloka and Vaikuntha.

 

In this way our eternal svarupa body is fully established in Goloka and has always has been there.

 

Guruvani, Begger and all other 'EINSTEIN' impersonal brahmajyoti origin nonsense believers, there is an impersonal stentch to how you all have understood the teachings of Vedanta and Srila Prabhupada. You do not explain or possibly do not understand that the effulgence of Krishna (His Brahman effulgence) is founded on Personalism within Goloka, the home of all living entities. Srila Prabhupada explains the following of what Krishna’s effulgence, Brahmajyoti or lustre is -

 

“The word varnam refers to the lustre (effulgence) of one’s original identity. The original lustre of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original lustre of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], is the lustre of ānanda, or pleasure”. Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Within this effulgence there are innumerable spiritual planets, and they are known as the Vaikuntha planets. Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Visnu. These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord. They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time.” (Bhag. 1.14.36)

 

Srila Prabhupada - “We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are LIKE the shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – Hawaii, January 28, 1974

 

Svarupa Damodara - “The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material”.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies.” .Svarupa Damodara wedsite

 

“The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

 

“The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can’t be eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

 

Srila Prabhupada – ‘This ordinary living being is of two kinds — nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.’ SB 5.11.12 Purport

 

Then Srila Prabhupada explains we are all nitya-siidha but presently cannot see our perpetual real permanant bodily identity that always is serving Krishna.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, (NITYA-BADDHA) but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

 

Srila Prabhupada “This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad by Srila Prabhupada Part Two

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

 

The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many who wrongly believe that the jiva-soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will, therefore their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is obviously impersonal and therefore dangerous. Such sects like the present mundane version of the Gaudiya math, do not understand the correct PERSONAL teaching of the Vedas given to us by Jagat Guru His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

[Beggar]

 

Guruvani, Begger and all other impersonal brahmajyoti origin believers, there is an impersonal stench to how you all have understood the teachings of Vedanta and Srila Prabhupada.

 

I'm sorry but we are of the opinion that there is a unqualified dualistic, neo-Abrahamic theological stench to your misunderstanding of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's teachings. Those who assert that the nitya-siddha participants in Krsna lila fall down or even dream they fall down are by nature unable to appreciate the worshipable position of those devotees. Consequently they cannot appreciated the loving exchanges of Krsna and His eternal associates in the four active lilas (dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madurya). Their crackpot theory which we call Sleeper-Vada is even more aparadhic that that of the Fall-Vadis. If the Fall Theorists are worse than Mayavada, then what is the position of the Sleeper-Vadis? I shudder at the mere thought!

[Beggar]

Time to muzzle the aparadhic Sleeper-Vada Propagandist! Perhaps they should be spayed or fixed so that they don't multiply!

[Svarupa]

Srila Prabhupada – ‘This ordinary living being is of two kinds — nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.’ SB 5.11.12 Purport

 

Then Srila Prabhupada clearly explains we are all nitya-siddha but presently cannot see our perpetual real permanant bodily 'svarupa' identity that always is serving Krishna.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, (NITYA-BADDHA) but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

[Svarupa]

Gaudiya math is polluted with impersonal Brahmajyoti origins of the jiva - beware!! :deal:

 

The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many who wrongly believe that the jiva-soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will, therefore their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is obviously impersonal and therefore dangerous. Such sects like the present mundane version of the Gaudiya math that is polluted with the belief we have originated from the impersonal Brahmajyoti, do not understand the correct PERSONAL teaching of the Vedas given to us by Jagat Guru His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

[Beggar]

Sripad Tripurari Maharaja:

Q. Some devotees say that one's svarupa, or spiritual identity, is already within us and is realized through spiritual practice (sadhana).

Other devotees say that it is not something that is already existing but rather manifests according to one's desire. Which is it?

A. One's eternal svarupa is already existing but needs to be realized by hearing and chanting. This is explained by Sri Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami, krsna prema nitya siddha sadhya kabu naya, sravanadi suddha citte karaye udaya. One's svarupa is a manifestation of Krsna prema, which is eternally existing in perfection (nitya siddha krsna prema).

It is not something that was not existing at some point and later comes into existence (sadhya kabhu naya). Hearing, chanting, and so on, about Krsna (sravanadi) purifies one's consciousness (suddha citte), at which time one's eternal svarupa awakens (karaye udaya). This awakening involves the experience of desiring to serve Krsna in a particular sentiment. According to Bhaktivinoda, as the svarupa becomes visible to the guru, he or she guides the disciple's bhajan accordingly, at which time the disciple cultivates the budding desire to serve Krsna in a particular sentiment. It is also possible that one's inherent svarupa may begin to awaken and then be cultivated by the disciple without external guidance. This is explained by Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura in his Ragavartma Candrika. The Thakura cites the following verse from Srimad Bhagavatam:

yatha yathatma parimrjyate 'saumat- punya-gatha-sravanabhidhanaihtatha tatha pasyati vastu suksmamcaksur yathaivanjana-samprayuktam

"Just as a diseased eye treated with medicinal ointment will gradually be able to see more clearly, similarly a conscious living entity--the seer--purified by hearing and chanting the virtuous narrations of my glories, is gradually able to see more and more subtle truths." (SB 11.14.26)

Commenting on this verse in his Ragavartma Candrika 1.9, Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura writes that when sacred greed for Vraja bhakti awakens within the sadhaka's heart, Bhagavan illuminates the sadhaka's goal both externally as Sri Guru and internally as the indwelling oversoul, the antaryami. The Thakura explains that such sadhakas may receive instructions concerning the esoteric truths of raganuga sadhana bhakti either directly from the mouth of Sri Guru or a qualified sadhu, or such instructions will manifest of their own accord in the heart of the sadhaka purified by hearing and chanting.

Thus one's svarupa is already existing and at the same time it is experienced as the sadhaka's desire to serve in a particular sentiment.

When Bhaktivinoda Thakura speaks about one's svarupa being inherent, he means that one's svarupa exists in potential, just as an infant's capacity to walk is inherent, and given the right circumstances, he or she will eventually walk. The jiva is a manifestation of the tatastha sakti, which is a partial manifestation of the svarupa sakti, the svarupa sakti being the source of all sakti. Unlike the maya sakti, which is a distorted manifestation of the svarupa sakti, the tatastha sakti has the potential to live in the conscious world as an eternal servant of Bhagavan. This potential can be realized when the tatastha sakti comes in contact with the current of the guru-parampara, which is the channel through which the svarupa sakti extends itself to the jiva soul. The partial expression of the svarupa sakti that the jiva is constituted of is insufficient to afford it standing in the lila of Bhagavan in and of itself. In order for it to realize its full potential it requires an investment from above, just as a small business requires an investment of capital to realize its potential to go public.

Q. In his Harinama Cintamani, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains the manifestation of the spiritual body in five stages, from sravana dasa to sampati dasa. The third stage smarana dasa has five levels. In the first of these levels meditation is said to be unsteady or fluctuating.

However, in Madhurya Kadambini, it is said that meditation on the asakti level is uninterrupted. Does this mean that meditation on one's siddha deha can be performed before the devotional stage of asakti?

A. In his Harinama Cintamani, Thakura Bhaktivinoda emphasizes that as one advances in chanting the holy name one should simultaneously engage in smaranam (meditation) on Sri Krsna's form, qualities, and lila in this order. The particular form in which Krsna appears in meditation replete with particular qualities corresponds with his worshiper's budding sentiment. This meditation then places one's Deity in the appropriate lilas for further meditation. After explaining this, Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes that meditation on Sri Krsna's lila is to be performed from the perspective of one's siddha deha (perfected spiritual body).

In support of the practice of meditating on one's siddha deha and Krsna's eightfold daily nitya-lila, Bhaktivinoda Thakura cites the Ramananda-samvada of Caitanya-caritamrta. Therein Ramananda Raya, acting as the raga marga guru of Sri Krsna Caitanya, explains to him the theoretical truth concerning one's siddha deha. It is notable that this occurs after Mahaprabhu has taken sannyasa and has been engaged in Sri Krsna sankirtana for some time.

At this point in Harinama Cintamani the Thakura writes that in order to begin this bhajana of meditating on the daily lila of Sri Krsna and one's siddha deha, one must first hear about these things in theory from one's guru. He calls this sravana dasa. Sravana dasa is followed by varana dasa. Varana dasa involves the disciple expressing his experience of his emerging spiritual identity, and in response to this revelation Sri Guru confirms and further clarifies this identity. When the disciple embraces this identity, he or she begins the practice of meditating on both the siddha deha and the daily lila of Sri Krsna.

This meditation involves five stages, remembrance (smarana), self-reminding (dharana), absorption in the object of meditation (dhyana), uninterrupted meditation (anusmrti), and comprehensive meditation (samadhi).

It appears from the text of Harinama Cintamani that the emergence of one's siddha deha occurs at a later stage of devotion. Indeed, the entire discussion of this is reserved for the final section of the final chapter of the book, the greater balance of which consists of a treatise on offenseless chanting of Krsna nama. The idea that the emergence and subsequent discussion or experience of one's siddha deha develops at a later stage of devotion is consistent with the Thakura's bhajana siksa in his book Bhajana Rahasya.

The foremost follower of Thakura Bhaktivinoda, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, characteristically did not discuss in detail the emergence of his disciple's siddha deha, but emphasized its realization through kirtana of Krsna nama and the smarana that arises naturally from this. He writes that hearing about Krsna-lila (sravana dasa) is followed by kirtana of that which one has heard (varana dasa). When this kirtana is performed in light of a particular devotional mood cultivated by the kirtaneer, this in turn gives rise to meditation (smarana dasa). See also his commentary on Upadesamrta 8.

Both of these acaryas have emphasized that one's siddha deha is experienced at the stage of asakti, at which time deep meditation on one's siddha deha is possible. Thakura Bhaktivinoda writes in his Bhajana Rahasya, pancamete suddha dasya rucira sahita hare rama sankirtana smarana vihita:

"With the fifth pair of names (in the maha mantra--Hare Rama), as one's taste (ruci) for chanting increases (asakti), one attains an attitude of pure servitude (manifestation of the siddha deha); and as one chants "Hare Rama," one should take up the practice of smaranam."

Examined in context, this is a clear reference to the stage of asakti, at which time Bhaktivinoda writes one should "take up the practice of smaranam." Commenting further on the stage of asakti, Thakura Bhaktivinoda writes later on in Bhajana Rahasya, "At this stage of cultivating the practice of the holy name, the aspirant prays for knowledge of his eternal spiritual identity and for service to Lord Krsna. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu sets the example in his Siksastaka (5)."

However, some followers of these acaryas feel that nistha is the threshold for the practice of raganuga bhakti that involves meditating on one's emerging siddha deha, while others stress the stage of ruci just prior to asakti. Ruci is the stage at which raganuga bhakti sadhana proper (jata ruci raganuga) is performed, and thus some degree of meditation on one's siddha deha is certainly possible.

Ruci has two stages of its own. The first stage involves taste for bhakti that is dependent on externals being in place, such as the kirtana being performed with musical proficiency, or Hari katha being poetically embellished. The second stage involves taste for bhakti that is not dependent on these externals. In these respective stages meditation can be distracted (smarana) and involves a deliberate effort (dharana).

Anusmrti (the fourth stage of uninterrupted meditation) is achieved in bhava-bhakti. Asakti involves natural meditation from which one cannot trace how one's mind drifts from mundane thought to absorption in the object of devotion. This is the opposite of the experience at the stage of nistha, where one cannot trace out how one's mind drifts away from thoughts of the object of devotion to mundane thoughts. This is not anusmrti, but rather the third stage of meditation, dhyana, wherein meditation is not deliberate but spontaneous.

The above analysis of the stages of meditation in relation to stages of advancement is no doubt a conservative one. In his Bhakti-sandarbha, Sri Jiva Goswami, citing verses from several scriptures, has described the five stages of meditation similarly. He describes the first stage of meditation (smarana) in a more liberal way ("a sinner somehow or other thinking of Visnu"); however, he describes the second stage of self-reminding (dharana) as anusmarana, "constant meditation." Sri Jiva describes the third stage (dhyana) as "undivided meditation" on God that enables one to endure the dualities of heat and cold, pleasure and pain, and so on, envisioning such difficulties as blessings. Jiva Goswami describes the fourth stage (anusmrti) as never forgetting Krsna even for a moment. He cites Vyasa's trance that gave rise to Srimad Bhagavatam as an example of the fifth stage (samadhi).

While Sri Jiva's description of the second through the fifth stages apply well to the forgoing analysis, I don't think Sri Jiva's liberal explanation of the first stage of meditation is what Thakura Bhaktivinoda had in mind when writing about the first stage of meditation on the eightfold nitya-lila of Sri Sri Radha Krsna from the vantage point of one's eternally perfected spiritual body. Nor does it fit well with the teaching of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura.

Overall, so little is written anywhere on these stages that they are left open to some degree of interpretation, and acaryas have thus taken an interpretive license when writing about them.

As mentioned above, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura discusses sravana dasa, etc., including the five stages of meditation, in his commentary on Upadesamrta 8. After concluding this discussion he states:

"When a devotee following the path of vaidhi bhakti (here he refers to ajata ruci raganuga) abandons his variety of material desires and performs bhajana in accordance with the instruction of sat-guru, sastra, and Vaisnava, ruci arises in his bhajana. Upon the appearance of ruci, he abandons the path of vaidhi bhakti and enters the path of raganuga (jata ruci raganuga)."

Ajata ruci raganuga bhakti, or raganuga sadhana bhakti that is not motivated primarily by taste but rather by intellect, is often referred to by both Bhaktivinoda and Saraswati Thakura as vaidhi bhakti. By this they do not mean the path of vaidhi bhakti that leads to majestic love of God. Thus their emphasis on raganuga bhakti seems to stress jata ruci raganuga as that sadhana in which all the components of raganuga sadhana, such as meditation on one's siddha deha, will be in place.

This is certainly the emphasis of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura in expressing his understanding of the teachings of Thakura Bhaktivinoda.

As a rule, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura did not personally discuss in detail meditation on the siddha deha with his disciples. In this regard he did not do what Thakura Bhaktivinoda writes about in Harinama Cintamani with regard to the guru discussing the siddha deha with a disciple at an advanced stage of practice. He emphasized realizing one's siddha deha through kirtana and the smaranam that arises naturally from it.

In this regard I was recently forwarded biographical notes from one of Srila Prabhupada's disciples, and a section of his notes contrasts the approach that Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura taught regarding realization of one's siddha deha and that of Lalita Prasada, his brother. Both of these gurus considered themselves followers of Thakura Bhaktivinoda. This disciple of Srila Prabhupada was initiated first by Srila Prabhupada and later he received bhajana siksa, etc. secretly from Lalita Prasada while Srila Prabhupada was still among us. To my knowledge he is not active in Gaudiya Vaisnavism at this time.

He relates the following: "When Prabhupada came to Vrndavana for a visit, I got Dr. Kapoor to come with me to ask about it (discussing one's siddha deha). Prabhupada said, "This is not done in our line. One must realize his relationship for himself. One cannot just jump ahead.

When one is ripe and ready, it will be revealed from within . . . I am a cowherd boy."

This, I believe, represents the policy of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. Representing the approach of Lalita Prasada, the same devotee writes:

"He [Lalita Prasada] called Bhakta Ma to help pick a name for me. She came up with Sudha Manjari. He had me pick an age I wanted to be from eight to thirteen. Thirteen. He said my color was golden, and I wore a sky blue sari, and that color combination was very beautiful. He asked me what service I liked performing the best. I enjoyed bathing the Deity of Radha and dressing her in the morning. That became my eternal service. My abode is Mahananda Kunja, a bower in Vrndavana. Lalita Prasad told me not to change any of these things without his permission, and to always meditate on them. He gave me a printed list of the disciplic succession with their spiritual identities and a place to add my name and information to the succession."

It should be noted that this devotee had not attained a particularly advanced stage of devotion such as nistha or ruci when Lalita Prasada gave him this information. I leave it for the reader to decide which approach better represents Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

Some devotees feel that the early stages of devotional life before ruci is attained involve at least "remembrance" (smarana) and "self-reminding" (dharana) of one's siddha deha, as given by gurus in various Gaudiya lineages. Some of these devotees also point to evidence in the life of Bhaktivinoda Thakura and others he associated with that could be construed as support for this approach, one that is popular and has a long-standing tradition.

For the followers of Bhaktivinoda Thakura, perhaps the conclusion to be drawn from all of this is that meditation on one's siddha deha is appropriate at whatever stage and to whatever extent it manifests. By all means, whenever one's siddha deha begins to manifest, to that extent one should try to meditate on it. To get to that stage, take shelter of the guru of your choice and follow his or her bhajana siksa.

[Svarupa]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

You and Guruvani plus the’ so called’ swamis and guru’s who support such nonsense do not understand that ‘seed form’ means our eternal svarupa bodily form that is eternally founded, placed and endlessly situated beyond mundane time and space within Goloka or Vaikuntha. In other words ‘we’ are already there and we just have to become Krishna consciously 'realized' enough to realize who we genuinly are for all eternity as our imperisgable svarupa or nitya-siddha body.

The real offensive Mayavadis are those who cannot understand the simple teachings of Srila Prabhupada who has said on many occasions we are eternally in Goloka and only think or dream we are not there.

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture " />

Srila Prabhupada –"When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream.lecture <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

[font=/><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

[font=][font=/><st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

<FONT]Krishna" /><st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Srila Prabhupada - “So as eternal servitors of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. That is our downfall”. Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated <st1:date Month="8" Day="27" Year="1967">August 27, 1967</st1:date>

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=5>This 'clearly means' our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE.

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky.

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Srila Prabhupada - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by <st1:City><st1:place>Milton</st1:place></st1:City> in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in <st1:country-region><st1:place>Australia</st1:place></st1:country-region>

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Srila Prabhupada - “Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna” Letter to Australian devotees 1972

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>When we’re dreaming, we think it’s real. It seems real, no matter how mixed up the dream is. That’s life in the material world. We think it’s real, but it’s not. It’s a real dream. But still a dream.

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Srila Prabhupada - “when the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” <st1:City><st1:place>Bombay</st1:place></st1:City>, <st1:date Month="12" Day="27" Year="1972">December 27, 1972</st1:date>

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Srila Prabhupada - "When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream.lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - "Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

In conclusion, the marginal living entities (tatastha s’akti) nitya-siddha identity is perpetually beyond the mundane decaying effect of time and space in the material creation (mahat-tattva) and is ‘always’ in Goloka. In other words ones eternal svarupa is always in Goloka.

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This for the benifit of those who are not polluted by those who think we originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti anD want to know the real truth of how all of us ORIGINATED FROM THE PERSONAL PASTIMES OF KRISHNA IN GOLOKA OR VAIKUNTHA, and follow the teachings of Srila Prabhupada, rather than those SO CALLED SWAMIS AND GURUS trying to use him to establish their own following

 

 

[Svarupa]

Pass this on to Tripurari Maharaj and 'friends' at the Gaudiya math.

In actual fact NO-ONE FALLS DOWN, but not in the way Kundali/Satyanarayan explain in their nonsense book. Why? Because we are now only ‘dreaming’ or ‘thinking’ that we are not there in Goloka or Vaikuntha when in actual fact our svarupa body is ALWAYS there regardless. This understanding is for the benefit of those who are not polluted by such drival as "In Vaikuntha Not Even The Leaves Fall". Srila Prabhupada explains clearly to us that our original position is ALWAYS in Goloka and that we only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are fallen OR NOT THERE. In fact we are not fallen, we only 'IMAGINE, BELIEVE or have convienced ourselves that we are fallen due to our mistaken selfish desires.

There present day 'non-eventful' Gaudiya math and their followers argument is therefore with the words from Jagat Guru His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

 

Clearly without any doubt whatsoever Srila Prabhupada tells us we ALL come down from Goloka.

[Beggar]

 

This for the benifit of those who are not polluted by those who think we originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti anD want to know the real truth of how all of us ORIGINATED FROM THE PERSONAL PASTIMES OF KRISHNA IN GOLOKA OR VAIKUNTHA, and follow the teachings of Srila Prabhupada, rather than those SO CALLED SWAMIS AND GURUS trying to use him to establish their own following

 

 

Show one place where Srila Prabhupada or any acarya ever stated that the jivas "originated from the personal pastimes of Krishna in Goloka or Vaikuntha". And while your at it why don't you explain to us how exactly this unfolds using sastric references. I don't think that you'll even attempt it.

Sripad Tripurari Maharaja (Hare nama, diksa, sanyassa all from Srila Prabhupada)

When Bhaktivinoda Thakura speaks about one's svarupa being inherent, he means that one's svarupa exists in potential, just as an infant's capacity to walk is inherent, and given the right circumstances, he or she will eventually walk. The jiva is a manifestation of the tatastha sakti, which is a partial manifestation of the svarupa sakti, the svarupa sakti being the source of all sakti. Unlike the maya sakti, which is a distorted manifestation of the svarupa sakti, the tatastha sakti has the potential to live in the conscious world as an eternal servant of Bhagavan. This potential can be realized when the tatastha sakti comes in contact with the current of the guru-parampara, which is the channel through which the svarupa sakti extends itself to the jiva soul. The partial expression of the svarupa sakti that the jiva is constituted of is insufficient to afford it standing in the lila of Bhagavan in and of itself. In order for it to realize its full potential it requires an investment from above, just as a small business requires an investment of capital to realize its potential to go public.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

The problem is that at some point students in the lower section may come to oppose the higher levels of knowledge such as those in Caitanya Caritamrta. Clearly Srila Prabhupada was willing to take this risk in his preaching to establish the foundations of Krsna Conciousness worldwide. But clearly,he would never approve of this assault by the elementary students on the higher siddhantas of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the Goswamis of Vrndavana.

 

[Svarupa]

 

 

 

The correct understanding of what time is explained very simply that even our good mate Gurvani can understand

 

 

 

The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you are experiencing in this inert world. Material time is divided into past, present and future. But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time.

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><B>Every event in Goloka and Vaikuntha (the Personal ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comThis is NOT the case in mahat-tattva and the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that takes up 25% of the spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti.

Whatever we speak or describe in the material world is under the influence of material space and material time. therefore, whenever we make statements such as, ‘the Jivas were created’, such a concept is not true because they were never created, they have always existed as their full bodily ‘svarupa’ potential and real self in Goloka but sometimes, due to free will and choice, ‘think or believe and assume ’ they are not that eternal ‘svarupa’ body. Such thoughts immediately place them ‘sub-consciously’ in the divided time of past, present and future within ethereal and biological material bodies that has a side effect of decay and importance within its own separate reality called the mahat-tattva, ‘thereafter the Jivas became bound by Maya

The spiritual world of Goloka and Vaikuntha are perpetually manifest in the eternal present’, ‘there is no aspect of maya in the original NITYA-SIDDHA svarupa constitution of the Jiva

Material time therefore ONLY influences the nitya baddha secondary conscious characturistics of the marginal living entity.

 

For this reason, no statement concerning the NITYA-BADDHA is exempt from the jurisdiction of material time. Feelings of past present and future naturally are part and parcel of the lower secondary nitya- baddha consciousness but in the face of ones real genuin authentic nitya-siddha bodily, that who one really is without beginning or end . Therefore, while experiencing the import of the descriptions of the spiritual world an spiritual objects, people who are devoted to pure thinking experience the changeless nature of present time. Be very careful in this respect

Srila Prabhupada clearly has told us that actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because they (their svarupa body) never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down.

Srila Prabhupada however further explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen (here Srila Prabhupada is refering to our perpetual svarupa body)

Srila Prabhupada explains we are not fallen because we only 'think' or imagine' ourselves asour non-Krishna Conscious dreaming nitya-baddha lower self that projects us out of Goloka and Krishnas pastimes that performed in the 'eternal present' as the Brahma samhita tells us. So in actual fact we don't go anywhere, we simply imagine we do.

 

Regarding the Gaudiya math

 

"You should avoid strictly meeting with them. They are not after preaching but material gain and reputation and adoration. Otherwise why they are non cooperating with me? So no cooperation is possible. Do not think or indulge in loose talks. Be careful always. Let us do the duty of propagation sincerely and seriously on our own principles. Krsna and Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura are our only hope and they and helping us. Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Acutananda 6/8/74:

 

 

[Beggar]

Our Affectionate Guardians

 

An example of Srila Prabhupada's trust of Srila Sridhara Maharaja is found in his letter of January 30, 1970 to Satsvarupa Maharaja, the editor of Back to Godhead magazine:

 

Regarding Sridhara Swami's article: I do not know what sort of article it is, but whatever it may be, the writer's name should be Swami B. R. Sridhara. Besides that, there is no need of giving any short introductory note at the present moment. If we publish an article, it is to be understood that the version of the article is not different from ours.

 

In other words, even without seeing Srila Sridhara Maharaja's article, he understood that it was philosophically sound and in agreement with his mood of presentation. Additionally, in a 1973 BBT meeting in Los Angeles, Srila Prabhupada stated that only himself and Srila Sridhara Maharaja were qualified to give commentary on the Srimad-Bhagavatam. This is confirmed in Giriraja Maharaja's letter of September 16, 1978 to the GBC.

[Beggar]

 

Their many confidential talks reveal the depth of their relationship. In March 1982, Srila Sridhara Maharaja said:

 

When he [srila Prabhupada] began his translation of the

Bhagavad-gita,

it was in consultation with me in a very deep way. Later, he requested me many a time, "Please look after them; I am taking them this side [to Krsna consciousness]. You have a responsibility to look after them."

 

 

[Beggar]

 

Throughout his life, Srila Prabhupada always maintained the highest respect for and confidence in Srila Sridhara Maharaja. He even sent some of his disciples to Srila Sridhara Maharaja for instruction. On January 31, 1969, in a letter to one of his disciples, Hrsikesa dasa, he wrote:

 

Because you are my disciple and, I think, a sincere soul, it is my duty to refer you to someone who is competent to act as

siksa

guru.For spiritual advancement of life, we must go to someone who is actually practicing spiritual life; not to some head of a mundane institution, not to someone who has offended his spiritual master in so many ways. I do not wish to go into details here. So, if you are actually serious to take instructions from a

siksa

guru, I can refer you to the one who is the most highly competent of all my godbrothers. This is B. R. Sridhara Maharaja, whom I consider to be even my

siksa

guru, so what to speak of the benefit that you can have by his association.So, if you are serious about the advancement of your spiritual life, I will advise you to go to Sridhara Maharaja.It will be very good for your spiritual benefit, and I will feel that you are safe. When I was in India with the others, we lived with Sridhara Maharaja. You can also make arrangements for your other godbrothers to go there in the future.

 

 

[Svarupa]

The present day version of the Gaudiya math obviously does not understand what the marginal living entity or jiva tatastha actually is and where we (the marginal living entities) perpetually reside. I have met him on a few occasions and like many of us, the correct understanding of jiva tatastha is still a mystery and not understood.

 

The fact is that many Swami’s and Guru’s and devotees find this difficult to comprehend, which is that the full devotional and bodily potential of the marginal living entities (jiva-tatastha) are already perpetually present in Goloka and that their svarupa body is always their as their original rasa bodily form, regardless if they are dreaming in the mahat-tattva or impersonal Brahmajyoti.

 

To suggest anything else IS impersonalism because if they say we did not originate from Goloka, then the only other place is an impersonal origin.

 

The following is a nonsense impersonal understaning of the jiva's origins written by Sridhar Goswami Maharaja

 

"Generally, souls emanate from the brahmajyoti which is living and growing. Within the brahmajyoti, their equilibrium is 'somehow?' disturbed and movement begins. From nondifferentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication.

 

The brahmajyoti, the nondifferentiated marginal plane, is the source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of nondifferentiated character. The rays of the Lord's transcendental body are known as the brahmajyoti, and a pencil of a ray of the brahmajyoti is the jiva. The jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms".

 

Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we originated from some impersonal Brahmajyoti fantasy or myth.

[Beggar]

If Srila Prabhupada was still in his manifest lila form and he heard about what you have written, that Srila Sridhar Maharaja has put forth something "nonsense" philosophically, then he would twist your ear in a very forceful manner! Of this I am certain.

Srila Prabhupada letter of 31/1/69 to Hrshikesa:

So, if you are actually serious to take instructions from a siksa guru, I can refer you to the one who is the most highly competent of all my godbrothers. This is B. R. Sridhara Maharaja, whom I consider to be even my siksa guru, so what to speak of the benefit that you can have by his association.

[Svarupa]

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

Srila Prabhupada - "originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha.

 

nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti ‘sadhya’ kabhu naya

zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya

Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world" Srimad Bhagavatam Class

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976 Questions to Srila Prabhupadfa of how we fell down from Goloka, (not as our nitya-siddha body) as our dreaming nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness

Srila Prabhupada - “So as eternal servitors of Krishna—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating Krishna. That is our downfall”. Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated August 27, 1967

This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE.

The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky.

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

These are the words of Lord Caitanya: The jiva's constitutional or inherent position is that of servant of Krsna because he is tatastha sakti, the marginal potency, a manifestation one with and different from Krsna.

We (the marginal living entities) are not a region or place in creation, the marginal plane or jiva s'skti IS/ARE the individual independent living beings like you and I, the marginal energy, jiva-soul or tatastha-s’akti, therefore WE ARE NOT in position or area in creation as Akruranatha prabhu and Shiva also correctly explained to us.

The marginal living entities are simply the jiva soul’s individual identity that eternally exists as independent thinking entities or beings that can choose to serving the Superior energy (Krishna) as their perpetual body, or be covered by the inferior energy (fleeting material energy of subtle [ethereal] and gross [biological] bodily vessels) within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

Although there is a paradox to all this or an apparent contradiction here, which is, even though the marginal living entities are independent thinkers, still they are always fully dependant on the Lords Superior or inferior energy to express their independent desires.

Tatastha s’akti then refers to the jiva souls sovereignty as a living being (you and I) who have ‘our’ identity, personality, individuality and desires or our own way of thinking eternally. We therefore eternally exists independently, not in some place in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable super energy (Lord Krishna), or take shelter of the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) This is an important point to understand.

Therefore JIVA TATASTHA refers to us, the living entities who are presently covered by the transitory inferior material energy (ethereal and biological vessels)

How have we fallen to the material world?

We have all attained our present condition of existence in the material creation due to firstly choosing between the Lord’s two energies. We all have our genuine place or full Krishna Conscious potential in Goloka or Vaikuntha that is everlastingly there, yet also always have the choice to remain aware of our perpetual svarupa body and genuine identity in Vaikuntha that is constantly serving Krishna.

 

We therefore can use our God given ‘marginal’ free will to foolishly enter the perishable universe of imagination and fleeting dreams as our mistaken desires and thoughts to achieve absolute power over all I purvey. However, in our forgetful state we forget that all our desires, dreams and thoughts are given the facility to exist only by the mercy of Maha-Vishnu who is the great facilitator of His maha-tattva creation.

Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy because they ARE the marginal energy and are therefore ETERNALLY called jiva-tatastha.

The marginal living beings (jiva-soul or tatastha s’akti) are autonomous expansion of Lord Krishna that has no beginning, no origin, or ending. They can choose to remain Krishna Conscious in their full devotional potential or transcendental body under the loving supervision of the superior energy (Krishna in Goloka or Vishnu in Vaikuntha), or be covered by the inferior energy (mahat-tattva)

 

In both cases the Supreme Lord is the origin and maintainer of the living entities, whether in their perpetual natural ‘svarupa’ Krishna conscious devotional service in Goloka or Vaikuntha, or if they have chosen to miss use their free will to abandon who they really are by entering the transitory illusionary dreams of greatness and chasing such desires within Maha-Vishnu’s dreaming temporary creation (mahat tattva).

[Guruvani]

"Prabhupada said".

But, it is not in shastra.

 

A handful of off-the-cuff remarks by Srila Prabhupada in his perplexity about how to preach to all these derelicts who were following him around is not enough to change Gaudiya siddhanta with.

 

So?

Srila Prabhupada didn't feel that these people were capable of grasping the truth so he told them a little fairytale to keep them interested and make it all sound so easy.

Fact is........ none of them have just woken-up one day and found themselves in Goloka.

 

Attaining love of Krishna is a process of step-by-step progress.

It's not just a snap of the fingers and waking up in Goloka like the dreamervadis say.

 

The wake-up in Goloka fairytale ignores all the progressive steps that the Mahaprabhu and the Goswamis have explained as leading to bhava bhakti.

 

You don't just wake-up in Goloka.

You have to go through the progressive steps and evolve through the progressive layers of reality to attain Goloka.

[Kulapavana]

Thinking that you fell from Goloka is similar to sahajiya practice of thinking you are a gopi. There may be some psychological benefit to such "meditations" but there is no real substance (tattva) to them.

[Guruvani]

 

Thinking that you fell from Goloka is similar to sahajiya practice of thinking you are a gopi.

 

I totally agree.

I think it is a new version of the sahajiya mentality.

Sleepervada is the ISKCON version of sahajiya mentality.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Right here, you've come as close to answering the questions regarding utility which I pose to the "fall from Goloka" folks--questions they seem unable to answer.

 

In a private discussion with Beggar, even *he* admitted that he can't really fault anybody for taking some courage from the thought that they fell from Goloka (it's when they publicly insist on it while blaspheming the Vaishnavas, that he takes offense).

 

Maybe it's useful for some aspirants. All I know is: the Vaishnavas tend to exhibit the mood of utmost humility.

 

 

Thinking that you fell from Goloka is similar to sahajiya practice of thinking you are a gopi. There may be some psychological benefit to such "meditations" but there is no real substance (tattva) to them.

[Kulapavana]

the sleepervadis could learn a lot from the regular sahajiyas when it comes to Vaishnava humility and respect. because they offend other Vaishnavas, sleepervadis cant make much progress and remain on the lower kanishta level. this can be easily observed: they have faith in the Deity and Guru, but they cant understand the shastra, and cant relate properly to other devotees.

[suchandra]

 

the sleepervadis could learn a lot from the regular sahajiyas when it comes to Vaishnava humility and respect. because they offend other Vaishnavas, sleepervadis cant make much progress and remain on the lower kanishta level. this can be easily observed: they have faith in the Deity and Guru, but they cant understand the shastra, and cant relate properly to other devotees.

 

But then you say that ISKCON are sleepervadis?