Fall theory is worse than Mayavada says Narasingha Maharaja

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

But then you say that ISKCON are sleepervadis?

 

The cancer has spread far and wide, it seems. Still, there is much of the body that is still healthy and whole. The prognosis is good says I, though I am not a doctor.

[suchandra]

 

The cancer has spread far and wide, it seems. Still, there is much of the body that is still healthy and whole. The prognosis is good says I, though I am not a doctor.

 

Well, I'm only asking coz I consider lately to re-join.

[Kulapavana]

 

But then you say that ISKCON are sleepervadis?

 

The sleepervada exists only in Iskcon and ritvik circles. Look at the article they posted on Dandavats, the official GBC controlled Iskcon site. That certainly added legitimacy to this bogus philosophy. Half of my posts to articles on Dandavats never make it to the threads, usually because they contain some critical material. But this garbage hangs on Dandavats as if it was a legitimate interpretation of our siddhanta. The censorship on Dandavats obviously thinks the sleepervada is worth promoting, as the site is viewed by thousands of devotees all over the world.

[suchandra]

 

The sleepervada exists only in Iskcon and ritvik circles. Look at the article they posted on Dandavats, the official GBC controlled Iskcon site. That certainly added legitimacy to this bogus philosophy. Half of my posts to articles on Dandavats never make it to the threads, usually because they contain some critical material. But this garbage hangs on Dandavats as if it was a legitimate interpretation of our siddhanta. The censorship on Dandavats obviously thinks the sleepervada is worth promoting, as the site is viewed by thousands of devotees all over the world.

 

Looks like that such kind of deeper discords can only be solved by the Lord Himself, present Vaishnavas do nothing but installing different camps. If truth is so clear, why others insist to not accept? If we can't properly convince others about what is wrong and what is right, better leave it and learn to live with it. Installing all those camps - is it befitting for those who study vedic knowledge?

[Kulapavana]

 

If truth is so clear, why others insist to not accept? If we can't properly convince others about what is wrong and what is right, better leave it and learn to live with it. Installing all those camps - is it befitting for those who study vedic knowledge?

 

Good questions.

 

First of all, for those who were initiated into a particular sampradaya the siddhanta should be very clear. No guru has the right to change the siddhanta of his sampradaya. Those who think Prabhupada changed the BMG sampradaya siddhanta dont belong in that sampradaya - period! The formation of "political" camps is unavoidable, but creating apa-sampradayas is most unfavorable to the unity of Mahaprabhu's movement. Iskcon can certainly turn into an apa-sampradaya, just like Auls, Bauls, and other Gaudiya splinter groups did.

[mahak]

ring around the rosie, and we all fall down. Sweet song bout the bubonic plague.

 

All we need to prevent this falling down is a pocket of posies.

 

If ya catch my drift.

 

But the ring around the rosie discussion continues......

 

mahaksadasa

[Beggar]

 

But the ring around the rosie discussion continues......

 

Sure, there is some truth to what your are saying, but here's where the thread has progressed:

 

Iskcon can certainly turn into an apa-sampradaya...

Reflexively, from their viewpoint the Sleeper and Fall-Vadis believe that everyone who does not accept their conception is apa-sampradaya. Who will be the judge? How ever you accept the meaning of Prabhupada's statement, "these books will be the law books for the next ten thousand years" we must admit that the law books are not the judge. Rather the content of the law books are to be applied by the judge. Prabhupada-onlyism in what ever form that it appears accepts only the law books, not the law judge or siksa, instructing guru. Yet Prabhupada-onlyism is inherently dishonest and hypocritical just like the management and guru system in-place in post-Prabhupada ISKCON. What makes it such is it's position on siksa or taking instructions is like an author writing a book about why books are not needed. The greater Prabhupada-onlyite section which includes ISKCON, Rtviks, IRM, Sleeper-Vadis etc. all overtly or covertly take guidance from others either who have official or unofficial postions in the Prabhupada-onlyite section. The different parties or camps within the Prabhupada-onlyite section and their guidance givers disagree on many points to the extent that it has become like the Tower of Babel in the Old Testament.

How can a Gaudiya Vaisnava mission with myriad conflicting voices push on with success? It is impossible! Therefore the recruiting system with in ISKCON is churning out bhaktas who are soon to be Rtiviks, mainstream Fall-Vadis, Sleeper-Vadis, IRM followers or non-Prabhupada-onlyites such as the different Gaudiya Math spinoffs. Many are doomed to become "I'm Confused-onlyites" as well. This is the current situation but in the background we can know that as Srila Sridhar Maharaja has stated, "we can only be cheated by ourselves" from the absolute standpoint. We are all experiencing the world and the devotional world according to our karma and our sukrti. Real bhakti is ahaituki and upratiyata, causeless and irresistable. No material situation can check it. "Our dearmost Friend is the controller of everything", suhrdam sarva bhutanam. "Every wave is a favorable wave". And as Srila Prabhupada has said and written, we, "are the architects of our own destiny."

[CCC]

 

Thanks CCC these are good points. What came in mind when reading your post, it could be, that the title of this topic is quite impudement and not Vaishnava mood. "One should be curious within one's limit", we're like prisoners within a jailhouse and the mood of the topic starter is rather like, "I want access records - why everyone was imprisoned?". This is rather an obstreperous challenge and not the mood of a prisoner who wants amnestied. The topic starter surely has a right to challenge the teachings of the previous acaryas of being diffuse, but will it help on the path of bhakti?

 

 

Fall theory is worse than Mayavada says Narasingha Maharaja

For me this an insult to all vaishnavas who are following the teachings and instructions of Srila Prabhupada and is saying that we are worst than mayavadas.

 

 

guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete koriya aikya,

ar na koriho mane asa

sri-guru-carane-rati, ei se uttama-gati,

je prasade pure sarva asa

 

Make the teachings from the lotus mouth of the spiritual master one with your heart, and do not desire anything else. Attachment to the lotus feet of the spiritual master is the best means of spiritual advancement. By his mercy all desires for spiritual perfection are fulfilled.

 

Why Srila Prabhupada wrotes thousands of letters to his disciples and why his conversation were recorded?

 

Because all words of the spiritual master are trascendental, If Srila Prabhupada wanted he could have called to their disciples by phone, would be fast and easy. But he was wise, and he knew that his letters and conversation would be a source of knowledge.

 

So for me the words of Srila Prabhupada are not different, letters, conversations, books, are not different.

 

Srila Prabhupada says in his letters conversation and books that we have forgotten the Lord and his service, We were with him in his lilas, we were serving Him, . Srila Bhaktisiddhanta says the same and Bhaktivinoda thakur the same.

 

So I have become more than my guru and the whole parampara?

[suchandra]

 

For me this an insult to all vaishnavas who are following the teachings and instructions of Srila Prabhupada and is saying that we are worst than mayavadas.

 

 

Why Srila Prabhupada wrotes thousands of letters to his disciples and why his conversation were recorder?

 

Because all words of the spiritual master are trascendental, If Srila Prabhupada wanted he could have called to their disciples by phone, would be fast and easy. But he was wise, and he knew that his letters and conversation would be a source of knowledge.

 

So for me the words of Srila Prabhupada are not different, letters, conversations, books, are not different.

 

Srila Prabhupada says in his letters conversation and books that we have forgotten the Lord and his service, We were with him in his lilas, we were serving Him, . Srila Bhaktisiddhanta says the same and Bhaktivinoda thakur the same.

 

So I have become more than my guru and the whole parampara?

 

Looks like that Prabhupada's endeavour to record his lectures and type his letters on paper is more or less considered as out of date and a waste of time. (see, Will "Prabhupada said" hold up in 21st Century) Posts which don't start with, "I think", or "my opinion is", considered as unintelligent and boring. But since it says, spiritual forum, it seems Krishna can manage sometimes to reveal some nectar.

[Kulapavana]

 

Real bhakti is ahaituki and upratiyata, causeless and irresistable. No material situation can check it.

 

if someone gets confused by the preaching of various camps, is that a material situation? when your guru falls down, is that a material situation? too often Vaishnavas use call various things "material" or "spiritual" based on the need of the moment and not on sound philosophy.

 

regardless of what we call them, without a doubt such situations have a profound effect on our spiritual life. if we create false expectations people are bound to become disappointed.

[suchandra]

 

if someone gets confused by the preaching of various camps, is that a material situation?

Preaching which confuses should rather not be called preaching in that sense that spiritual knowledge is like the Sun:

 

krishna — surya-sama; maya haya andhakara

yahan krishna, tahan nahi mayara adhikara

 

 

"Krishna is compared to sunshine, and maya is compared to darkness. Wherever there is sunshine, there cannot be darkness. As soon as one takes to Krishna consciousness, the darkness of illusion will immediately vanish.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 22.31

[Beggar]

 

if someone gets confused by the preaching of various camps, is that a material situation? when your guru falls down, is that a material situation? too often Vaishnavas use call various things "material" or "spiritual" based on the need of the moment and not on sound philosophy.

 

regardless of what we call them, without a doubt such situations have a profound effect on our spiritual life. if we create false expectations people are bound to become disappointed.

But why were those people whom ISKCON created false expectations in that situation to begin with? ISKCON management should think that it's their own fault (managements fault), but from the neutral viewpoint we can see that it is do to lack of sukrti. Sometimes this can be mixed with our karmic reactions.

Still Krsna's hand is behind everything, so mercy may causeless or as it is sometimes said, do to good fortune.

[indulekhadasi]

Just out of curiousity, why is it that the threads that are about the jiva issue have the most comments?

[Beggar]

 

Just out of curiousity, why is it that the threads that are about the jiva issue have the most comments?

 

The lower section, misguided Prabhupada-onlyites, are coming to attack the the higher conceptions of Krsna Consciousness either if it is in the form of Caitanya Caritamrta or those who have very much imbibed that conception and can verify it, such as non-ISKCON Gaudiya Saraswat acaryas. This is a very deep and profound issue, but since it is not Hari Katha proper it can certainly become redundant and hackneyed.

[Beggar]

 

For me this an insult to all vaishnavas who are following the teachings and instructions of Srila Prabhupada and is saying that we are worst than mayavadas.

 

 

Why Srila Prabhupada wrotes thousands of letters to his disciples and why his conversation were recorded?

 

Because all words of the spiritual master are trascendental, If Srila Prabhupada wanted he could have called to their disciples by phone, would be fast and easy. But he was wise, and he knew that his letters and conversation would be a source of knowledge.

 

So for me the words of Srila Prabhupada are not different, letters, conversations, books, are not different.

 

Srila Prabhupada says in his letters conversation and books that we have forgotten the Lord and his service, We were with him in his lilas, we were serving Him, . Srila Bhaktisiddhanta says the same and Bhaktivinoda thakur the same.

 

So I have become more than my guru and the whole parampara?

Then Srila Prabhupada has contradicted himself by the statement,

 

After finishing their mock fighting, both the devotee and the Lord are again associated in the spiritual planets. That is very explicitly explained here. The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

...and I don't think that he has.

Unless you wish to accept Sleeper-Vad and rationalize the above statement by asserting that the reason he says that "The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode" is that we have hit the pause botton and are just dreaming that we are in the world of samsara.

[Guruvani]

The fact of the matter is that all the modern devotees that are familiar with the Gaudiya Matha school and those that are familiar with non-Saraswata Gaudiya parivars as well all conclude that in fact the fall-from-vaikuntha and it's extreme form of dreamervadi theory had nothing to do with Gaudiya Vaishnavism before some oddball ISKCON people invented it by extrapolating extreme interpretations of some allegorical instructions that Srila Prabhupada Bhaktivedanta Swami told to some neophyte western people.

 

The fall-from-vaikuntha and the dreamervadi theory are both ISKCON anomalies that have resulted from Srila Prabhupada's perplexity in trying to find the best way to spoon-feed Gaudiya Vaishnavism to western people.

 

Before ISKCON, the fall-from-vaikuntha and the dreamervadi theory were not at all associated with Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

Some neophyte people from the western world created that fairytale from some allegorical ideas that Srila Prabhupada used in his preaching work.

 

It had nothing to do with Gaudiya Vaishnavism prior to ISKCON.

 

Unless some people want to say that Srila Prabhupada changed the Gaudiya siddhanta and preached something new, we cannot accept the fall-from-vaikuntha or the dreamervada theory that has been fashioned by ISKCON devotees by taking extreme liberties with the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

You know, I have a "fall theory" as well.

 

My theory states that, in the fall, the weather starts getting colder and all the leaves fall off the trees (except the evergreens, which keep their leaves year-round). Of course, this isn't true in the tropics, where it's warm year-round (except for hurricane season, when it cools off a bit), or in Australia, where it's spring, and the weather is starting to get warmer.

 

I haven't worked out all the details yet, but anybody who tells you something different must be in illusion.

 

[theist]

 

Just out of curiousity, why is it that the threads that are about the jiva issue have the most comments?

 

Because it gives people an excuse to argue ad nauseum, display their dislike for others with different viewpoints and all under the cloak of "spiritual debate" and all under the flag of "protecting the siddhanta from those apa-siddhantists."

 

It is really quite a spectacle.

[theist]

Better silence then endless prajalpa.