Fall theory is worse than Mayavada says Narasingha Maharaja

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Well said.

 

However, let's not insult the Mayavadis like that. The Mayavadi's philosophy is more consistent than the "fall from Goloka" folks' philosophy.

 

 

You've got it quite wrong, my friend. No one is saying that the brahmajyoti is the place of origin for the baddha jivas. The brahmajyoti emantates from the body of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and His innumerable Visnu tattva expansions. Since Bhagavan's body is not different from Himself it is also true to say that the baddha jivas expand from Bhagavan Himself. The point is that the conditioned souls or baddha jivas were never actually in the Spiritual Planets situated in their sthayi bhava rasa with the Lord. Consequently to condem the Gaudiya Siddhanta as given by the predesessor acaryas as impersonal is being done by first creating a "straw man" rhetorical argument, that is to make the false allegation that anyone believes that the marginal jiva souls are not expanding or emanating from Sri Bhagavan, Himself. But we must also note that although from some theorectical perspective the souls who eternally serve the Lord in the Vaikuntha may have the potential to fall down, yet this fall down never occurs because Maha Maya can never enter the region of cinmaya dham. But if we insist that there is absolutely no difference from the eternal servitors of the Lord, nitya siddhas and the nitya baddhas then our theology becomes very much akin to mayavada.

[CCC]

 

As it is???? Or as they were mistranscribed (or is that only a claim of yours when you don't like the transcription), misheard, misrepresented? Do you trust your faulty senses so much?

 

You don't *know* what the words of Srila Prabhupada were. Even the words in his books are not *directly* his!!

 

Bull-crap!!!!!

 

As with everything, one must capture the *spirit* of Srila Prabhupada if one wishes to faithfully follow him.

 

Who has captured Srila Prabhupada's spirit? His closest associates! Do you know who those associates are?

you are talking nonsense...

 

closest asociates? the eleven ones?, Sridhar Maharaj, Narayan Maharaj?, are you kidding me? do you know what are you talking about??

 

 

OMG!

[Guruvani]

 

you are talking nonsense...

 

closest asociates? the eleven ones?, Sridhar Maharaj, Narayan Maharaj?, are you kidding me? do you know what are you talking about??

 

 

OMG!

 

Please start another topic for your blasphemy of Vaishnavas.

This topic is not about that.

Take your bad mouth and start your own topic dedicated to blaspheming Vaishnavas.

This topic has nothing to do with your blasphemous rantings.

 

Devotion to Srila Prabhupada is not enhanced by blaspheming Vaishnavas in the name of devotion.

 

But, of course this is what you have learned from your neophyte ISKCON guru.

That and some fancy little fairytale bedtime stories about falling from Goloka to become a worm in stool.

[sevabhakta]

 

Srila Prabhupada, eh? And for Whom is Srila Prabhupada a "transparent via medium"?

 

If Mahaprabhu was standing before you, would you say, "Sorry, Srila Prabhupada is the final..."?

 

Sorry, sometimes I forget that some of the audience isn't attempting to, or directly, using Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon to spread the holy name in such a careless way, setting themselves up as authorities beyond their pay grade.

 

As far as I am concerned, those qualified by their devotion to present Gaudiya Vaisnavism in a way that does not contradict the Saraswata Parivar is Siksa Guru to me, and I consider them Srila Prabhupada to their disciples whoever you may be.

 

My comments were made for the disciples of H.D.G. A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, those who aspire to that line, and the aforementioned young souls who are still using their Real Daddy as a crutch for their lukewarm attempts at harmonizing with him at the expense of their big egos.

 

Hare Krsna

 

Hare Krsna

[sevabhakta]

 

I actually tell these people: Find out what are the qualification of a real guru and seek out such a person by examining him directly, no middle-men involved. Blind faith is dangerous. Spend some time with such a guru, observe his words and actions while serving him. Then - and only if you are absolutely sure this person is qualified - take diksa from such a guru and treasure the Gayatri mantra passed on in our sampradaya because this mantra is Krsna. One day you will see that for a fact.

 

I also tell them: Watch out for the fanatics and the con-men. These are the folks who destroyed Srila Prabhupada's movement. Think for yourself and trust your heart.

 

At least I take responsibility for my ego, and proud to do it, I like to be an individual.

 

Just by "telling these people" like you say, puts you directly in the middle between him and them. How transparent you are is what counts. Except in your example you pretend to be merged into the Brahmajyoti and tell this person to examine the person who they are considering to be their spiritual teacher (de facto and in facto who you are to them already due to the circumstance of you "telling them" anything about their spiritual life) and see if they meet the qualifications of a spiritual master while LIVING WITH THEM AND SERVING THEM FOR A WHILE).

 

And of course this is what all the Iskcon gurus say. As they send someone to LIVE WITH AND SERVE their "good" self, or one of their Godbrothers.

 

And since this person does not have access to Srila Prabhupada's original books, such as the CC where the original version said if the society seems filled with false devotees you can take shelter of the spiritual master, and the changed version says that you must stick to the society regardless of what you think of the other "disciples".

 

And because you are a madhyama or a kanistha learning how to be a qualified brahmana and preach a little, there ain't know way you are going to fit the bill, so I dare say a smart kanistha or madhyama will do something similar to what I suggest and call the spades spades, the acaryas acaryas, and be a good madyhama monkey middle man for an Acarya who is light years more advanced in his devotional mood and preaching capability through his books than you will probably be in this lifetime, and then maybe his mercy and grace will bring out the self-effulgent acarya in you sometime, but let us not put the cart in front of the horse.

 

If this advice were followed by more of the folks I speak with, including some finishing touches on my part, there would be alot less debate and discussion with this tinge of passion, and lots more Sankirtana and cooperation between us since the factions are simply a creation of lack of chastity to A MAHABHAGAVAT ACARYA'S INSTRUCTIONS, whichever one YOU choose to take on your head.

 

I would be fine and silent if a person was just going off and starting his own movement from scratch, having no more interaction with Iskcon or Srila Prabhupada's disciples than sharing Hari Nama and formal affairs, in other words NEVER casting doubt in the minds of a disciple of SP by contradicting him or criticizing him wherever they MIGHT be present, like this internet forum for example, except that some people are here actually trolling for such disaffected disciples and aspirants to discipleship of His Divine Grace, and offering their "ALTERNATE PLAN" and suchness.

 

So despite the confusion of some of our young friends in the audience, I continue to point out the truth, as a middle man, and that is if you are going to apply any spirit of examination to any of the lost sheep of Iskcon, or anyone preaching on this board, match what they say to either of the three great spiritual teachers, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, Bhakti Raksak Sridhara Maharaja, and their protege Srila Govinda Maharaja, in order to confirm that the person you are examining is properly representing the conclusions of the founding duo of the Saraswata Parampara, the father son team of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhu, in terms of how a Harinama Sankirtana mission is to be conducted among the most fallen of the "Western" world.

 

Hare Krsna

[CCC]

 

But, of course this is what you have learned from your neophyte ISKCON guru.

I am not from Iskcon, I am not an initiated devote by a so called guru from iskcon or gaudiya math, I just read Prabhupada's books chant Hare Krsna and feel the bliss from chanting the maha mantra. Sometimes I cry or laugh or get stunned and fell that a nectar of love flow trhu my body from the heart, sometimes the emotion are so powerfull that I can't check them and are liberated in ecstatics dreams or in a kirtan. Some devotes thinks that I am mad some thinks that I have ghosts whatever... sometimes I don't like to express such emotions but sometimes is out of my control.

 

I have attain such state reading Srila prabhupadas books, exactly, reading with faith the pastimes of the Lord and chanting with faith. I rememebr the first times I read Srila Prabhupadas books was something so wonderful and the first kirtans that I see in the street attracted me like a magnet...

 

So, Srila Prabhupada is my Guru, my material life is ever worst so I have no material qualification for being proud. Every time I try to do something not conected with Krsna He disappear and I get mad and I can do nothing at all because I have no other refuge, not money, no material qualifications. I think that is the mercy of Krsna and then He comes again to my heart and I can't control my happiness.

 

So if soemone is really sincere or trying to be sincer or just desiring to be or just recognize sorry Krsna I am not sincere but I would like to d sometyhing for you Krsna will send him a genuine guru and will give to that soul instructions from within. When I read Srila Prabhupadas books he is living in his books, so when I read Srila Prabhupada's instructions about his godbrothers or whatever I take them seriously.

 

Hare Krsna!

[Guruvani]

 

I am not an initiated devote. Sometimes I cry or laugh or get stunned and fell that a nectar of love flow trhu my body from the heart, sometimes the emotion are so powerfull that I can't check them and are liberated in ecstatics dreams or in a kirtan. Some devotes thinks that I am mad some thinks that I have ghosts whatever... sometimes I don't like to express such emotions but sometimes is out of my control.!

 

Oh, so you are a sahajiya to boast about things in public?

Now I understand.

 

Only a fool would say such things in public.

 

Go back to your fairytale dream that you are in Goloka playing with Krishna.

Sorry I bothered you in all your ecstacy.

 

It's nice that you come out of trance long enough to post in the forum.

[CCC]

 

Oh, so you are a sahajiya to boast about things in public?

Now I understand.

 

Only a fool would say such things in public.

 

Go back to your fairytale dream that you are in Goloka playing with Krishna.

Sorry I bothered you in all your ecstacy.

 

It's nice that you come out of trance long enough to post in the forum.

 

As you, I get very happy when someone is advancing in Krsna conciousness!, why should I not say these things openly? anyway no one knows me here. Is just to show that Krsna conciousness works.

 

But I know the reason but I dont want to say because is very clear.

[Beggar]

 

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja:

Mahaprabhu says na prema-gandho 'sti darapi me harau, "I am hankering for a drop of real prema; and I have not attained it yet. I am weeping, shedding so many tears, crying 'Krsna, Krsna.' It is all hypocrisy, because the positive proof is here: I am alive without Him. I have not disappeared; I did not dissolve. I am living, I am eating, and I am sleeping. This is positive proof that I have no genuine love for Krsna." Mahaprabhu Himself says that.

 

 

Bhava is such a valuable attainment, and we think ourselves masters of it overnight! Fools, deceivers, self-deceivers! In the positive, assertive way it can never be attained. Only in the negative, submissive way can we have some conception. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura says, vicaksana kari', dekhite cahile haya, haya akhi-agocara: "Suddenly a flash came, but when I tried to look, it disappeared. It was withdrawn." In this way, in a submissive way, we can have some idea. Whimsically He may come, and suddenly I may feel, "Oh, here is some experience of the higher knowledge and love, but if I try to capture it, there is nothing, vanished."

 

[Guruvani]

 

As you, I get very happy when someone is advancing in Krsna conciousness!, why should I not say these things openly?

As on some other issues being discussed here, you are showing yourself to be suffering from a lack of proper understanding.

The fact that you don't know that what you just said is very absurd and ludicrous is evidence that in fact you don't know very well the shastra or the tradition of Gaudiya culture.

 

Your ignorance to demean advanced devotees is also revealing that you are an upstart western devotee who thinks he is better than the actual Vaishnava devotees born in India who were direct disciples of Srila Saraswati Thakur.

 

Maybe you are pleased with yourself, but Srila Prabhupada would never be pleased with that nonsense still being perpetuated some 30 years after his departure.

 

Claiming sattvik-bhavas is a sure sign of a neophyte that has a cheap idea of what Krishna consciousness is.

 

It's amazing that you can come out of trance long enough to criticise some lovely Vaishnavas much older, learned and more advanced than you.

[Kulapavana]

 

Just by "telling these people" like you say, puts you directly in the middle between him and them. How transparent you are is what counts.

 

More news flash for you: Only the brainwashed Iskcon devotees think they can become disciples of a departed guru. I have not met a single "new" person who would conceive of such an absurd idea. Consequently I try to give people the tools (like SP books) which will help them figure out how to proceed, and hopefuly avoid any disappointments on the path of KC.

 

As to me "casting doubts" on the words SP spoke or wrote.... another news flash for you: These people are already FULL of doubts! I am only trying to help them sort it all out - honestly and with intellectual integrity - so they may keep faith in the acharyas and our tradition. And mind you: the mutually contradictory statements SP made on the "fall from Vaikuntha" issue for example are most certainly NOT helping in this matter. Some of these statements contradict shastra, tradition, and the words of the previous acharyas. Deal with that, baba. Maybe you should get out more often and actually talk to the real people who have some interest in KC? Seems to me you are stuck in the 1970's.

[suchandra]

 

More news flash for you: Only the brainwashed Iskcon devotees think they can become disciples of a departed guru. I have not met a single "new" person who would conceive of such an absurd idea. Consequently I try to give people the tools (like SP books) which will help them figure out how to proceed, and hopefuly avoid any disappointments on the path of KC.

 

As to me "casting doubts" on the words SP spoke or wrote.... another news flash for you: These people are already FULL of doubts! I am only trying to help them sort it all out - honestly and with intellectual integrity - so they may keep faith in the acharyas and our tradition. And mind you: the mutually contradictory statements SP made on the "fall from Vaikuntha" issue for example are most certainly NOT helping in this matter. Some of these statements contradict shastra, tradition, and the words of the previous acharyas. Deal with that, baba. Maybe you should get out more often and actually talk to the real people who have some interest in KC? Seems to me you are stuck in the 1970's.

 

Just curious, what will be the title of the book you're presently writing?

[Svarupa]

Settle down Kulapavana how can the truth about our origins get you so fired up?

 

Also you are wrong about ISKCON devotees now becoming disciples of Srila Prabhupada. Thats not possible because he left this planet in 1977. Who told you such nonsense that the GBC squashed years ago?

 

You also cannot deny the fact that Srila Prabhupada said that we all came down from Goloka some millions of years ago, why not accept what HE says?

 

Hare Krishna

[Kulapavana]

 

Just curious, what will be the title of the book you're presently writing?

 

FYI: I am not writing any books and have no such plans.

[Kulapavana]

 

Also you are wrong about ISKCON devotees now becoming disciples of Srila Prabhupada. Thats not possible because he left this planet in 1977. Who told you such nonsense that the GBC squashed years ago?

 

You also cannot deny the fact that Srila Prabhupada said that we all came down from Goloka some millions of years ago, why not accept what HE says?

 

Only in Iskcon sanga (in the wide sense of this term) this absurd concept of becoming a disciple of a departed guru can be seen manifested.

 

And yes, Prabhupada did say on occasions "that we all came down from Goloka some millions of years ago", but he also said (and wrote in his books) that "no one falls from Vaikuntha". And that is the root cause of all this confusion, if you have not noticed (again - only in Iskcon!). I chose to accept ONLY the latter explanation of Srila Prabhupada ("no one falls from Vaikuntha") as it matches the shastra, the teachings of our tradition, and the statements from previous acharyas.

 

Such absurd concepts spread in Iskcon because so many of its members have been thoroughly brainwashed over the years to reject both common sense and previous teachings of our sampradaya.

[Svarupa]

Thats right, YOUR perpetual body can never fall down from Goloka because only the eternal 'presents' exist there and presently you are simply dreaming in the mahat-tattva. Why not accept these facts?

[Svarupa]

Also you are wrong about ISKCON devotees now becoming disciples of Srila Prabhupada. Thats not possible because he left this planet in 1977. Who told you such nonsense that the GBC squashed years ago?

[Kulapavana]

 

Thats right, YOUR perpetual body can never fall down from Goloka because only the eternal 'presents' exist there and presently you are simply dreaming in the mahat-tattva. Why not accept these facts?

 

Prabhu, did you actually read the Gita? If you did - please read it again and this time pay attention to Chapter 2, as your deranged "sleeper" concept violates the most basic tenets of Vaishnavism as explained by the Gita and all previous acharyas.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

... Sometimes I cry or laugh or get stunned and fell that a nectar of love flow trhu my body from the heart, sometimes the emotion are so powerfull that I can't check them and are liberated in ecstatics dreams or in a kirtan. Some devotes thinks that I am mad some thinks that I have ghosts whatever... sometimes I don't like to express such emotions but sometimes is out of my control.

 

 

Whom To Follow And How Much To Follow Them <hr> <table align="right" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="203"> <tbody><tr> <td> Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

</td> </tr> </tbody></table> Granada, Spain: June 24, 2003 Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja:

One thing more – if you want to develop your Krsna consciousness, don't try to show off your bhakti to others. Keep it like camphor in your heart. If burning camphor is kept in a closed room, its fragrance increases. If kept in an open doorway it evaporates.

Be like Bharata Maharaja, who never told anyone about his advancement in devotion. Only out of mercy he spoke to Rahugana, and not to others, for he was hiding his wealth. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu prayed, "Na prema-gandho 'sti darapi me harau. – I have not a trace, or even a shadow, of prema – I have nothing." If someone would ask Him, "Then why You are weeping?" He would reply, "I am weeping so that all will praise Me. If a fish is taken out of water, she dies at once, in a moment. But as far as I am concerned, I am not meeting with Krsna, and I am tolerating the separation. So how can I say I have prema?"

Srila Narottama Thakura has written in Prema Bhakti Candrika (verse 9), "Apana bhajana-katha, na kahiba jatha tatha. Don't tell anyone, 'I have seen Krsna in my dream. I have realized Krsna. Sometimes I weep bitterly for Krsna. I chant sixty-four rounds of harinama.' Or 'I can speak very nicely; better than anyone.' You must hide everything – if you want to develop your Krsna-prema."

[Kulapavana]

 

Also you are wrong about ISKCON devotees now becoming disciples of Srila Prabhupada. Thats not possible because he left this planet in 1977. Who told you such nonsense that the GBC squashed years ago?

 

GBC did not "squash" the ritvik apasampradaya - actually most of the GBC members are crypto-ritviks.

 

Do you see any non-Iskcon trained devotees becoming interested in this concept of becoming disciples of a departed acharya? No. So it is just the problem for our devotees, especially in USA and India.

[Sarva gattah]

 

GBC did not "squash" the ritvik apasampradaya - actually most of the GBC members are crypto-ritviks.

 

Do you see any non-Iskcon trained devotees becoming interested in this concept of becoming disciples of a departed acharya? No. So it is just the problem for our devotees, especially in USA and India.

 

Stop writing nonsense.

[sevabhakta]

 

More news flash for you: Only the brainwashed Iskcon devotees think they can become disciples of a departed guru. I have not met a single "new" person who would conceive of such an absurd idea. Consequently I try to give people the tools (like SP books) which will help them figure out how to proceed, and hopefuly avoid any disappointments on the path of KC.

 

As to me "casting doubts" on the words SP spoke or wrote.... another news flash for you: These people are already FULL of doubts! I am only trying to help them sort it all out - honestly and with intellectual integrity - so they may keep faith in the acharyas and our tradition. And mind you: the mutually contradictory statements SP made on the "fall from Vaikuntha" issue for example are most certainly NOT helping in this matter. Some of these statements contradict shastra, tradition, and the words of the previous acharyas. Deal with that, baba. Maybe you should get out more often and actually talk to the real people who have some interest in KC? Seems to me you are stuck in the 1970's.

 

Prevarication and obfuscation are the only things you don't have to "try" to do, they seem to come quite naturally. But I am satisfied that if there was anyone reading this exchange with a modicum of intelligence, who was on the fence, will certainly reject you as an authority, and honestly, that makes my day.

 

A new person, by definition, doesn't have a CLUE IN REALITY what they are looking for anyway, they are of 4 types, and only the wise has an INKLING that there must be some absolute truth behind all relative truths, and that maybe someone can help CLUE them in on it, but someone like that doesn't give a rat's ass whether the person with the answer left it written in a book and has "departed" for greener pastures. They just want the truth. The discipline is Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's anyway, but he is departed to, so I guess all anyone is left is... Kulapavana???

 

And as for people being "full of doubts" due to Prabhupada's words...

 

The only contradictions in anything Srila Prabhupada said are contradictions in your conditioned mind because you don't have the full picture in order to harmonize what APPEAR TO YOU OR ANY DOUBTER, AT FIRST, to be contradictions.

 

Anything that seems to be a contradiction is due to the Acintya principle that something can be bedha and abedha. We are to EVENTUALLY stop analyzing Sri Krsna and the methods behind his madness, and just love him unconditionally and accept all his ways.

 

The rest of the population of devotees will stay mired in the level of philisophical "contradiction" until they actually get humble enough to accept Krsna and his service plan "as it is", and then they get the intelligence to IMMEDIATELY see through any SEEMING CONTRADICTION THAT ARISES through the DESCENT OF UNDERSTANDING WHICH COMES DIRECTLY THROUGH THE INTERNAL POTENCY.

 

You can have the sandbox back for a while now and be King of the Doubters, there is an unlimited supply of them to rule around here, I need some rest.

 

Hare Krsna

[Kulapavana]

 

You can have the sandbox back for a while now and be King of the Doubters, there is an unlimited supply of them to rule around here, I need some rest.

 

 

Actually I dont have a whole lot of doubts to deal with. I actually dont really care where I fell from, or how far is from here to the Moon. I have my own priorities. Still, these are issues that people grapple with and they MUST be addressed if we want to do some serious preaching. Blind faith is not the answer and people are not buying it from anyone these days. Anyway, take care Mark, good talking to you. Pranams...

[Guruvani]

Let's not argue the ritvik issue in this topic.

It's not something that can definitively be disproven or proven with shastra, so the argument will go on till the end of time.

 

This topic is about exposing the fall theory as being worse than Mayavadi philosophy.

There is no doubt that it is.

 

It appears that Srila Prabhupada didn't foresee that allowing the fairytale to perpetuate would in the future cause a burden on ISKCON as the devotees carry that baggage with them into the 21st Century when Gaudiya Vaishnavism in the western world has expanded well beyond ISKCON.

 

Now, the baggage of the fall-from-goloka fairytale is dogging ISKCON like a Chihuahua on steroids as ISKCON devotees makes fools of themselves all over the world by preaching the fairytale in abject defiance of shastric conlusions to the contrary.

 

The "Back To Godhead" theme is nice if understood from the proper perspective.

But, neophyte western devotees have taken that theme and turned it into a new version of Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

The "anti-Godbrother" campaign of Srila Prabhupada got way out of control and has come back to roost in ISKCON like a vulture setting on a power-pole looking for roadkill.

 

In ISKCON Jesus is nice, Mohammed is nice but all the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada are the bad guys.

It's a nightmate scenario for ISKCON.

It turns my stomach.

[Kulapavana]

 

Now, the baggage of the fall-from-goloka fairytale is dogging ISKCON like a Chihuahua on steroids as ISKCON devotees makes fools of themselves all over the world by preaching the fairytale in abject defiance of shastric conlusions to the contrary.

 

The "Back To Godhead" theme is nice if understood from the proper perspective.

But, neophyte western devotees have taken that theme and turned it into a new version of Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

Yes, it is definitely a serious problem. Actually there is no sanskrit term for "back to Godhead", because the entire concept is not based on tradition. some say Prabhupada was the only one who understood we fell from Vaikuntha planets but that is a huge stretch. I also see it merely as a preaching concept which dissolvs away when a disciple matures. The reason it was introduced was perhaps a desire to minimize the appeal of the impersonal brahamvada path.

 

 

The "anti-Godbrother" campaign of Srila Prabhupada got way out of control and has come back to roost in ISKCON like a vulture setting on a power-pole looking for roadkill.

 

In ISKCON Jesus is nice, Mohammed is nice but all the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada are the bad guys.

It's a nightmate scenario for ISKCON.

It turns my stomach.

 

Spot on. I think I would rather associate with real sahajyas then with offenders like that.