Fall theory is worse than Mayavada says Narasingha Maharaja

[sevabhakta]

If we just keep in mind that LORD Krsna used his transparent Bhakta Acarya to appeal to the entire bell curve of souls who would even attempt to chant and follow...

 

We can then see the transcendental justification for every word he spoke.

 

Lord Krsna did not care one iota what a few bhaktas might "wish" Iskcon would be like now "if only" Srila Prabhupada did not say things which attracted and appealed to cheaters and their cheated.

 

Lord Krsna inspired/dictated/directed (whatever you want to call it) because Lord Krsna wanted them chanting his name. He even gave them an institution to destroy just to hook em on the basics. Can we get over that?

 

I say only if we wake up to see how everything such an acarya said is perfect, and as some have pointed out, this accptance will lead to maturing to the stage of being able to harmonize "apparent" contradictions with this truism in mind.

 

Doubts arise from the inherent nature of material conditioning. We don't want Krsna, we want the material world to fit our needs, and the transcendental path leaves alot of holes in our material plan, so we doubt, and pick the first contradiction we see to justify a lesser attempt at sadhana.

 

Those who gripe and groan, and plan how to remove these doubts from these people are beating their heads against a wall, perhaps with good intentions, but they too are succumbing to be cheated by wasting their energy in a futile effort, which is actually working AGAINST KRSNA'S PLAN TO KEEP THEM CHEATED JUST THE WAY THEY LIKE IT, FOR AS LONG AS THEY WANT IT.

 

The only solution is to seek out association of those who thoroughly grasp this truth, and let it permeate your consciousness, and then and only then might Krsna actually use you to make a change in a cheater/cheated type when they are ready to come around. Otherwise, it is the drowning trying to save the drowning.

 

Please forgive me for seeming to do exactly what I am asking everyone else not to do, I am still being pulled up by the life preserver I am holding on to and using my best discrimination as to who might possibly grab on also without pulling me back under. See, it is not so easy to let go of misguided sentiment, but I just can't believe that some people who seem so close, so so close, can't just come around. Thy will be done.

 

Hare Krsna

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Thank you for putting the emphasis back on what's important.

 

What you say here is all true.

 

At the same time, it is the nature of the Vaishnava (such as Kulapavana Prabhu) to feel compassion for those who are suffering due to doubts (or whatever cause).

 

While feeling few or no doubts themselves, they strive to shed light into the darkness.

 

It's in their nature.

 

 

If we just keep in mind that LORD Krsna used his transparent Bhakta Acarya to appeal to the entire bell curve of souls who would even attempt to chant and follow...

 

We can then see the transcendental justification for every word he spoke.

 

Lord Krsna did not care one iota what a few bhaktas might "wish" Iskcon would be like now "if only" Srila Prabhupada did not say things which attracted and appealed to cheaters and their cheated.

 

Lord Krsna inspired/dictated/directed (whatever you want to call it) because Lord Krsna wanted them chanting his name. He even gave them an institution to destroy just to hook em on the basics. Can we get over that?

 

I say only if we wake up to see how everything such an acarya said is perfect, and as some have pointed out, this accptance will lead to maturing to the stage of being able to harmonize "apparent" contradictions with this truism in mind.

 

Doubts arise from the inherent nature of material conditioning. We don't want Krsna, we want the material world to fit our needs, and the transcendental path leaves alot of holes in our material plan, so we doubt, and pick the first contradiction we see to justify a lesser attempt at sadhana.

 

Those who gripe and groan, and plan how to remove these doubts from these people are beating their heads against a wall, perhaps with good intentions, but they too are succumbing to be cheated by wasting their energy in a futile effort, which is actually working AGAINST KRSNA'S PLAN TO KEEP THEM CHEATED JUST THE WAY THEY LIKE IT, FOR AS LONG AS THEY WANT IT.

 

The only solution is to seek out association of those who thoroughly grasp this truth, and let it permeate your consciousness, and then and only then might Krsna actually use you to make a change in a cheater/cheated type when they are ready to come around. Otherwise, it is the drowning trying to save the drowning.

 

Please forgive me for seeming to do exactly what I am asking everyone else not to do, I am still being pulled up by the life preserver I am holding on to and using my best discrimination as to who might possibly grab on also without pulling me back under. See, it is not so easy to let go of misguided sentiment, but I just can't believe that some people who seem so close, so so close, can't just come around. Thy will be done.

 

Hare Krsna

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Let's not argue the ritvik issue in this topic.

It's not something that can definitively be disproven or proven with shastra, so the argument will go on till the end of time.

 

This topic is about exposing the fall theory as being worse than Mayavadi philosophy.

 

Well, to me, these two issues go hand in hand (and, in practice we see that they tend to here on this forum).

 

As your buddy Phalguni Krishna das was just observing to me on break: accepting as guru a personality who is no longer present on the planet makes it much easier for the aspirant to pick and choose what they like from the departed acharya's teachings. The process becomes more about *their* priorities than the priorities of the acharya.

[sevabhakta]

 

Well, to me, these two issues go hand in hand (and, in practice we see that they tend to here on this forum).

 

As your buddy Phalguni Krishna das was just observing to me on break: accepting as guru a personality who is no longer present on the planet makes it much easier for the aspirant to pick and choose what they like from the departed acharya's teachings. The process becomes more about *their* priorities than the priorities of the acharya.

 

Well, if you examine Srila Prabhupada's system that he put in place, if anyone were to have been staunch enough to FOLLOW it, he required grhastas, as of 1974, to live amongst themselves in farm communities in order to support all devotees who were able to live in the temples.

 

In otherwords, he wanted everyone to reach for self sufficiency, only entering into karmi zones to trade surplus from the farming and cottage industries, distribute books, and Harinam Sankirtana/preaching parties.

 

Also in his system were senior representatives who one was to live amongst or at least be monitored by when they came to that community to see that the spiritual standards were being upheld.

 

Those senior representatives were to hold "aspirants" to Srila Prabhupada's standards, since the Acarya was "departed", his books and instructions were to be the basis, and no-one was to pick and choose, because a monitor would chastise and or excommunicate such.

 

So many of HIS VERY OWN DISCIPLES WHO HE NEVER MET IN HIS ABHAY CARAN BODY, were discipled by him through the senior men who monitored and guided them on his behalf.

 

This was the way it was when he was "present".

 

Nothing was to change when he "departed".

 

He said so.

 

It is still possible to do this, and I predict that his system will be the one to eventually win the day, and for many years the Sankirtana villages will send out Sankirtana parties to all the places where it has not been yet, I am certain there are a few "towns and villages" in South Dakota yet to be canvassed.

 

Many many Siksa Guru representatives of the founder Acarya.

 

And those independent of his system who are empowered to form their own movements will certainly never try to convince anyone still under his discipline to give it up and follow them.

 

Hare Krsna

[Beggar]

 

Many many Siksa Guru representatives of the founder Acarya.

 

This assumes that such siksa gurus were an are, "A" students in their discipleship. I've been fortunate enough to rub shoulders with what you would call disciples of Gaudiya Math gurus who appear from my perspective to grade out very high.

Only a handful of Prabhupada disciples have ever met such a grade and some unfortunately are no longer with us. I am willing to accept guidance from wherever I find a high grade guide in Krsna Consciousness. I am not concerned with the brand name, whether it be ISKCON or Math X, Y or Z. Yet I will only accept guidance and inspiration with one who expresses sincere love and appreciation for Srila Prabhupada. Some may think that some apparently contradictory things that Prabhupada said have caused a problem. We must be very careful in our approach for our devotional life is only made of his mercy. The problem with expressing this on an open forum is that such love and appreciation is like beauty, it exists within the eye of the beholder. That is why it is an "affair of the heart" as told by Srila Sridhar Maharaja. It cannot be legislated, nor will anyone be declared the winner on this forum. The only currency that will have any value will be transcendental realization, only our heart will tell us when we are satisfied, not anyone else, including our own brain.

[Guruvani]

 

accepting as guru a personality who is no longer present on the planet makes it much easier for the aspirant to pick and choose what they like from the departed acharya's teachings.

Well, there is plenty of picking and choosing going on in the lives of devotees with "living gurus" so that argument is bogus and proves nothing.

[CCC]

 

Whom To Follow And How Much To Follow Them <hr> <table align="right" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="203"> <tbody><tr> <td> Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

</td> </tr> </tbody></table> Granada, Spain: June 24, 2003 Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja:

One thing more – if you want to develop your Krsna consciousness, don't try to show off your bhakti to others. Keep it like camphor in your heart. If burning camphor is kept in a closed room, its fragrance increases. If kept in an open doorway it evaporates.

Be like Bharata Maharaja, who never told anyone about his advancement in devotion. Only out of mercy he spoke to Rahugana, and not to others, for he was hiding his wealth. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu prayed, "Na prema-gandho 'sti darapi me harau. – I have not a trace, or even a shadow, of prema – I have nothing." If someone would ask Him, "Then why You are weeping?" He would reply, "I am weeping so that all will praise Me. If a fish is taken out of water, she dies at once, in a moment. But as far as I am concerned, I am not meeting with Krsna, and I am tolerating the separation. So how can I say I have prema?"

Srila Narottama Thakura has written in Prema Bhakti Candrika (verse 9), "Apana bhajana-katha, na kahiba jatha tatha. Don't tell anyone, 'I have seen Krsna in my dream. I have realized Krsna. Sometimes I weep bitterly for Krsna. I chant sixty-four rounds of harinama.' Or 'I can speak very nicely; better than anyone.' You must hide everything – if you want to develop your Krsna-prema."

 

Thanks Shakti Fan, I apreciate very much your post, I will follow the instruction of Srila Narottama Thakura. I used to ask my self should I said this or that or not? Once I told to my Mom and she was not happy since that time I never said such things to people who are karmis or people who knows me, is very delicate, because people who has never experienced this get envious, angry or disappointed, this is a powerful reason to not to say this things. I said such thing not to boast my spiritual life just to say, is real, works, like a testimony, if someone didnt like my post well I am taking it as a warning from Krsna to not to say it again, but somtimes I want to reveal and share this to others, like a child that has discovered something wonderful and wants that all people knows that. thats all thanks

[Guruvani]

 

The third-class person in Krsna consciousness may fall down, but when one is in the second class he does not fall down, and for the first-class person in Krsna consciousness there is no chance of falling down. (Bg. 9.3, purport)

The pure devotee has no actual chance to fall down, because the Supreme Godhead personally takes care of His pure devotees. (Bg. 9.34, purport)

Eternally liberated living entities never come into contact with material nature . . . they are counted among the associates of Krsna. (Teachings of Lord Caitanya, p. 108)

. . .the nitya-siddhas are eternally Krsna conscious without any forgetfulness . . . you should not consider that My associates are ever separated from Me . . . they are almost as powerful as I am . . . they are very, very dear to Me, as I am very, very dear to them. (Nectar of Devotion, p. 205)

 

[Guruvani]

Jaiva Dharma ch. 15.

 

Vrajanatha: That is a wonderful conclusion! I wish to hear the evidence the Vedas give for it. The words of the Supreme Lord (Bhagavad-gita) are worthy evidence by themselves. However, when they are supported by the words of the Upanisads, they are more easily accepted by the people in general.

Babaji: These truths are revealed in many passages of the Vedas. I will recite one or two of them. Please listen carefully. In the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (2.2.20 and 4.3.9) it is said:

"As tiny sparks fly from a fire, so all individual souls have come from the Supreme."

"A person has two places: the spiritual world and the place where the spiritual world meets another world. There is also a third place, a place of dreams. Standing between them, the soul sees on one side the spiritual world and on the other side the place of dreaming."

This passage describes the individual soul's (jiva-shakti), which can reside in either the spiritual or material worlds (tatastha). In the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (4.3.18) it is also said:

"As a large fish in a river may go to one shore or the other, so a person may go to one world or another. He may go to a world where he is awake, or may go to a world made of dreams."

Vrajanatha: How does the Vedanta philosophy define the word "tatastha?"

Babaji: The place where a river's waters meet with the land of the shore is called the 'tata'. The 'tata' is then the place where water meets the land. What is the nature of this 'tata'? It is like the thinnest of threads that runs along the boundary of land and water. A 'tata' is like the finest of lines, so small that the gross material eyes cannot even see it. In this example the spiritual world is like the water and the material world is like the land. The thin line that separates them is the 'tata'. That boundary place is the abode of the individual spirit souls. The individual spirit souls are like atomic particles of sunlight. The souls can see both the spiritual world and the material world created by Maya. The Lord's spiritual potency, cit-shakti, is limitless, and the Lord's material potency, maya-shakti, is gigantic. Standing between them, the individual spirit soul is very tiny. The individual spirit souls are manifested from the tatastha-shakti of Lord Krishna. Therefore the souls are naturally situated on the boundary (tatastha) of matter and spirit).

Vrajanatha: What is this 'tatastha' nature of the individual souls?

Babaji: Standing between them, the soul can see these two worlds. The 'tatastha' nature of the souls refers to the fact that they must be under the control of one of these two potencies. The actual place of the 'tata' (shore) may change. What was once dry land may be covered with water, and what was once covered by water may again become dry land. If he turns his gaze upon Lord Krishna, the soul comes under the shelter of Lord Krishna's spiritual potency. But if he turns away from Krishna and turns his gaze to the material potency, maya, then the soul is caught in maya's trap. That is what is meant by 'the soul's tatastha nature'.

 

[Beggar]

Srila Sridhar Maharaja:

The jiva comes from tatasthaloka, the marginal position or the abscissa, and must go through higher planes where even the soil is more valuable than the infinitesimal spirit soul. Vaikunthera prthivyadi sakala cinmaya. What is Vaikuntha? There the soil, earth, water, everything is of purer consciousness than the person who is going to enter there.

… We must understand the conception properly. The jiva has emerged from the tatastha- sakti or marginal potency. He is a part of the marginal potency, and he must enter the higher plane This gross world is of gross potency, aparasakti; the jiva, although marginal, is of a potency superior to this gross world, or para-sakti. Above both is the Internal Potency, or anta ranga-sakti. We have to enter the plane of antaranga-sakti. This marginal potency is to enter the plane of Paravyoma, and the highest quarter, Vrndavana, Goloka. It is not a trivial matter.

<center> Chapter Eleven Sri Guru and His Grace, The Land of Gurus

 

</center>

<center> <tt></tt>In the Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.9.31) it is stated:</center>

<center> na hy ekasmad guror jnanam

su-sthiram syat su-puskalam </center> "One certainly cannot get complete knowledge from only one guru." In the highest stage of devotion, we must see not only one guru; we must see that guru is everywhere. In the land of Krsna, all are gurus; our transformation should be towards that. Everything in the spiritual world, the entire environment is our guru and we are servants. To enter into Vaikuntha, or Goloka, means that on all sides we must see guru and pay our respects. There is gradation of course, but all are guru .

There are different classes of guru. All Vaisnavas are considered gurus. If the spiritual master gives even one letter to the disciple, what is contained there is infinite. The knowledge given by the spiritual master is infinite. To know and understand it fully, however, different sources are necessary.

In the highest position one can read devotion to Krsna from everywhere. If we can attain the proper vision, then everything will supply me inspiration towards the performance of our duties. Whenever Mahaprabhu saw a forest, he saw it as Vrndavana. Whenever he saw a river, he saw the Yamuna. Whenever he saw a hill, he saw it as Govardhana hill. In that highest stage, wherever we cast our glance, it will remind us about our Lord. They will teach us, they will press us to engage ourselves in service to Krsna. That is the duty of guru. Wherever we cast our glance, whatever we come in contact with will only excite us "Do your duty." That is guru. Our guru is whoever gives us impetus for the service of Krsna, whoever helps us to look towards the center. So, because every atom in Vaikuntha and Goloka will encourage us towards our duty, they are all our gurus. Gurus will be very amply available when we can raise ourselves to a higher level.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Well, there is plenty of picking and choosing going on in the lives of devotees with "living gurus" so that argument is bogus and proves nothing.

 

Gee whiz!! I said "makes it easier to". That implies that it is still possible when one's Guru is present.

 

When the Guru is not present physically, the disciple does not even have the option to directly petition Gurudeva for clarification on points of confusion.

 

Furthermore, when we are present before Gurudeva, it seems like he can see into our souls (not that he/she is omniscient, but, Krishna--or simply purity--seems to give Gurudeva extraordinary insight) and often answers the questions we do not even have the courage to ask. He is the doctor, and he can prescribe the proper formulation for our particular brand of illness.

 

Srila Gurudeva wil be here in California in less than a week, now (God-willing). I'm excited, to be sure, but I'm also quivering in my boots.

[Guruvani]

 

Gee whiz!! I said "makes it easier to". That implies that it is still possible when one's Guru is present.

 

When the Guru is not present physically, the disciple does not even have the option to directly petition Gurudeva for clarification on points of confusion.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja says:

 

 

Our guru is whoever gives us impetus for the service of Krsna, whoever helps us to look towards the center.

If that person is a bygone acharya or devotee then who is to say that one cannot accept that person as guru?

The idea that we can only accept a living person as guru completely nullifies the value of the bygone acharyas and the instructions they left behind for all time to come.

The guru is not limited by time and space.

The guru is beyond such relative limitations.

 

There is no such concept in shastra as "living guru".

If there is, then I would like to see it.

 

Bhaktivinode says that the Vaishnava dies to live and living spreads the Holy Name around.

So, I guess Bhaktivinoda advocated that dead Vaishnavas can still spread the Holy Name around.

 

There is no such thing as a "dead guru".

The real guru is "sat guru" or eternal guru.

Guru is not some fleeting phantom that appears for a little while and fades away like a shooting star.

[Guruvani]

 

 

Srila Gurudeva wil be here in California in less than a week, now (God-willing). I'm excited, to be sure, but I'm also quivering in my boots.

When he arrives can you ask him to comment on these orders of Srila Sridhar Maharaja in his official declaration of spiritual succession that he delivered on

Gaura Purnima, 26th March, 1986 at SCSMath?

With this I transfer these beads and from now he will initiate on my behalf as ritvik. The ritvik system is already involved both here and also in the foreign land. The ritvik is the representative.

 

 

I have previously given to him the charge of the Math and now I am giving him the full responsibility of giving Harinam, diksha, sannyasa, etc., as an Acharya of this Math on behalf of myself.

 

 

In the Mahamandala, Sagar Maharaj and many others are also ritvik of Swami Maharaj and also myself. They may do so, but in this Math and in any Math under this Math, he will be the representative. If anyone cannot accept this, he may leave the Math rather than stay here and disturb the peace of the Math.

These were the final words of Srila Sridhar Maharaja on the matter of disciplic succession.

 

We would like to know how and why this ritvik appointment got rejected by Govinda Maharaja.

[Guruvani]

Sridhar Maharaja:

 

With this I transfer these beads and from now he will initiate on my behalf as ritvik. The ritvik system is already involved both here and also in the foreign land. The ritvik is the representative.

 

So, from this we can see that Srila Sridhar Maharaja actually initiated Govinda Maharaja as his ritvik representative and gave him japa-mala as to signify his initiating Govinda Maharaja to be his official ritvik representative.

[sevabhakta]

I had no idea Govinda Maharaja rejected the ritvik appointment of his Guru.

 

In a recent post I glorified him in the same breath as Srila Sridhara Mahraja and Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami for their wisdom and chastity to the representative systems of their Gurus.

 

Actually I am shocked, but do not doubt Guruvani would assert such an indictment without hard proof.

 

Still I would like to see it for myself. Perhaps Guruvani was misinformed.

 

Now THIS is interesting.

[suchandra]

 

I had no idea Govinda Maharaja rejected the ritvik appointment of his Guru.

 

In a recent post I glorified him in the same breath as Srila Sridhara Mahraja and Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami for their wisdom and chastity to the representative systems of their Gurus.

 

Actually I am shocked, but do not doubt Guruvani would assert such an indictment without hard proof.

 

Still I would like to see it for myself. Perhaps Guruvani was misinformed.

 

Now THIS is interesting.

 

Guruvani is surely not misinformed since it is all written down and documented. Since real Vaishnavas never indulge into creating different opposing camps what disturbs the spreading of the Holy Name we have to learn to position ourselves in somehow serving all devotees who push forward the chanting of the Holy Name in every town and village.

 

 

 

Painting by Polish Vaishnavas at http://www.harekryszna.pl/kultura.php

 

 

[Guruvani]

 

I had no idea Govinda Maharaja rejected the ritvik appointment of his Guru.

 

 

It probably wasn't so much as a rejection by Govinda Maharaja but a rejection by all the little cronies hanging out at the Matha.

 

Still, I think Govinda Maharaja should have not been coerced by the small-timers into reliquishing his ritvik status.

 

All the little cronies said "no, Maharaja you are not ritvik, you are acharya".

 

So, in this way Govinda Maharaja was robbed of his ritvik appointment by the little position seekers.

Several of the top men responsible for the fiasco fell down.

[Beggar]

What if one is appointed rtvik, and then many years after his guru enters nitya lila the rtvik's disciples begin to see him as a "regular guru". Who is to say whether or not the appointed rtvik has entered a higher adhikara? Isn't it matter of faith? After all generally a rtvik would be far more junior in attainment than his guru otherwise his guru would have identified him as a "regular guru". If the rtvik is developing bhakti in a dynamic way, why give him a static label for all time? What about in the next life?

[Guruvani]

 

What if one is appointed rtvik, and then many years after his guru enters nitya lila the rtvik's disciples begin to see him as a "regular guru". Who is to say whether or not the appointed rtvik has entered a higher adhikara? Isn't it matter of faith? After all generally a rtvik would be far more junior in attainment than his guru otherwise his guru would have identified him as a "regular guru". If the rtvik is developing bhakti in a dynamic way, why give him a static label for all time? What about in the next life?

 

Good question.

But, the orders of the spiritual master cannot be neglected no matter how advanced one becomes.

It is not a matter of not being qualified to be "regular guru".

 

I am not saying Govinda Maharaja is not qualified.

I think that he is and was.

 

Still, the orders of the founder-acharya of SCSMath have to be maintained as it was his will and his orders.

 

Qualification is not the issue.

The orders are there.

They must be followed at all times and forever by the ritvik successor who was appointed as such by the determination of the acharya.

 

One never becomes TOO QUALIFIED to execute the orders of his spiritual master.

No matter the qualification, the orders of Srila Sridhar Maharaja must be followed as that was his best judgement for how the Math should continue after him.

 

There are so many ifs, ands or buts that we can use for an excuse.

But, the order of the acharya should not be questioned.

It should just be followed.

[sevabhakta]

Ditto.

 

This is also Vaisnava 101.

 

I have been stating, in similar paraphrase, what Guruvani just said, for years.

 

All this Ritvik bashing is simply due to a lack of education regarding the etymology of the word Ritvik.

 

I have posted exhaustive analysis on this subject in previous posts on this board.

 

In essence one considered ritvik is the most highly qualified brahminical position. It is one who Knows The Time to Perform a Sacrifice. They gain this knowledge because they LISTENED TO AND HEARD THE INSTRUCTIONS OF THEIR ACARYA, and represent him perfectly when sacrificing.

 

For vaisnava's in this age, such a qualification means this person is an expert at Sankirtana Yajna and their timing is perfect.

 

If a Vaisnava is also a qualified Ritvik, such advancement is practically inconceivable to pea-brained conditioned souls.

 

Oh well, at least a few people can appreciate this. That is nice. Too bad the rest will see this as an impediment to their megalomania.

 

As far as Govinda Maharaja is concerned, I surmise Guruvani is not far from the mark at all, he probably renounced it just to have compassion on all the fools who were hanging around him chanting the Holy Name and thinking they knew something he didn't. He just didn't want to disturb their Uber-Neophyte minds.

 

But I'll say it. They won't listen to me anyway, I doubt I will have an influence. If those luminaries come to me in a dream and chastise me, I will make a swift withdrawal from this position and carefully denounce ritvik, and noone will even remember how thoroughly I backed it.

 

Yeah I'm puffed up, but this issue just eats me up because I can see what nice Gaudiya Vaisnava communities we could have here in America if more than 3 or 4 people could actually appreciate the instructions of such Great Ones.

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhu stated that the Earth is no place for a gentleman in Kali Yuga, and this stark Vaisnava landscape here is ramming his point home like a battering ram, I should try to make some advancement out of this realization instead of bitching about it! Maybe they are ready to take the Ritvik defenders straight home, like a get out of jail free card, Krpa Siddha when we least expect it. I am such a monkey in so many ways, this is my best shot at a spot in Krsna's lila any time soon.

 

Hare Krsna!!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

As far as Govinda Maharaja is concerned, I surmise Guruvani is not far from the mark at all, he probably renounced it just to have compassion on all the fools who were hanging around him chanting the Holy Name and thinking they knew something he didn't. He just didn't want to disturb their Uber-Neophyte minds.

 

I don't know where anybody gets the idea that Gurudeva renounced anything given to him by Param-Gurudev.

 

For anybody that's spent any time around Gurudeva, it's perfectly clear that everything he does is done as an offering to his Guru Maharaja.

 

In your comments and Guruvani's, I sense a non-trivial amount of envy. Maybe I'm just projecting.

[sevabhakta]

 

I don't know where anybody gets the idea that Gurudeva renounced anything given to him by Param-Gurudev.

 

For anybody that's spent any time around Gurudeva, it's perfectly clear that everything he does is done as an offering to his Guru Maharaja.

 

In your comments and Guruvani's, I sense a non-trivial amount of envy. Maybe I'm just projecting.

 

If Guruvani's assertions earlier regarding Srila Govinda Maharaja's rejection of ritvik are true, then why evade the truth and its implications? Afraid of making a little spiritual advancement? No gain with pain?

 

I still have not seen proof except for Suchandra's cheerleading follow up post, but silence is often considered acceptance. And all you have offered is an irrelevant analogous defense, not an evidentiary refutation of Guruvani's assertion.

 

Like I said. Probably a preaching strategy, because he is a nice Vaisnava.

 

Hare Krsna

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

If Guruvani's assertions earlier regarding Srila Govinda Maharaja's rejection of ritvik are true, then why evade the truth and its implications?

 

And if my assertion that I'm Henry VIII is true then you shall be beheaded.

 

Where does anybody get the crazy notion that Srila Govinda Maharaja sees himself as anything but the eternal servant of Srila Sridhar Maharaja?

[Guruvani]

 

And if my assertion that I'm Henry VIII is true then you shall be beheaded.

 

Where does anybody get the crazy notion that Srila Govinda Maharaja sees himself as anything but the eternal servant of Srila Sridhar Maharaja?

I have never seen any documented statement where Srila Govinda Maharaja has denied being a ritvik of Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

 

What I have seen is some followers of the Math on this forum deriding the ritvik conception and touting Govinda Maharaja as non-ritvik, full-fledged acharya.

 

I don't deny that he is acharya and guru.

What I see in the words of Srila Sridhar Mahraja is that he wanted all the followers of the Math to respect Srila Govinda Maharaja as an acharya acting in a ritvik capacity.

 

I have never been one to deride a ritvik as anything less than a guru or acharya.

That is what other people feel, but not me.

 

I don't think that one can be ritvik unless he is acting as an acharya by following the orders of his spiritual master.

 

Ritvik appointment is not a demeaning or minimizing of the disciple.

 

When an acharya establishes a Math and a mission it is my view that after him all the successors are really ritviks of the acharya.

 

That is the way the Ramanuja sampradaya works from what I have heard and I think it is quite a logical system.

[sevabhakta]

 

And if my assertion that I'm Henry VIII is true then you shall be beheaded.

 

Where does anybody get the crazy notion that Srila Govinda Maharaja sees himself as anything but the eternal servant of Srila Sridhar Maharaja?

 

No sweat Murali, I was just playing the game until eventually someone clarified the known facts in evidence separate from the speculation.

 

I sensed some passionate provocation.

 

If we use the example of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami and what his disciples passed off as proper representation of the Guru's will, no true disciple of his would infer that he was lax in chastising the rebels, but conversely would know that the rebels simply chose against the proper option, and that rejection of the Guru is no fault of the Guru.

 

I want to hear it from Srila Govinda Maharaja's own mouth or on official transcript from an internal memo or a lecture/conversation before I can believe something so unlikely as his rejection of his Guru's order in his Guru's matha.