Fall theory is worse than Mayavada says Narasingha Maharaja

[sevabhakta]

 

I have never seen any documented statement where Srila Govinda Maharaja has denied being a ritvik of Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

 

What I have seen is some followers of the Math on this forum deriding the ritvik conception and touting Govinda Maharaja as non-ritvik, full-fledged acharya.

 

I don't deny that he is acharya and guru.

What I see in the words of Srila Sridhar Mahraja is that he wanted all the followers of the Math to respect Srila Govinda Maharaja as an acharya acting in a ritvik capacity.

 

I have never been one to deride a ritvik as anything less than a guru or acharya.

That is what other people feel, but not me.

 

I don't think that one can be ritvik unless he is acting as an acharya by following the orders of his spiritual master.

 

Ritvik appointment is not a demeaning or minimizing of the disciple.

 

When an acharya establishes a Math and a mission it is my view that after him all the successors are really ritviks of the acharya.

 

That is the way the Ramanuja sampradaya works from what I have heard and I think it is quite a logical system.

 

Yes, there is a difference between the office and the official. The official may be of various grades of qualification or even unqualified regarding the responsibilities of the office.

 

If one who is so instructed remains Ritvik by official position, and is also acting capably and fulfilling his potential there, they are in fact acting as acarya and Guru.

 

Those who can't understand how Lord Krsna could manage a transcendental ritvik representation system within a Sankirtana movement using Daivi Varnasrama Dharma, lack the faith in Krsna's ability to do anything he wants through those souls willing to fulfill his and his Acarya's desires.

 

They are so stuck on the gross form side of things that they claim the appointment of ritviks is form only and no substance.

 

When the reality is essential substance begets manifest form, subtle informs the gross, the presence of person who is qualified and capable of being a ritvik creates the need for the outer form comprised of the duties of some position.

 

A ritvik may even be only a very advanced neophyte, but if he is following strictly his Guru's orders, by his action he is considered transcendentally situated and potent as a via media for whatever plan Sri Guru has, because he fulfills the terms of his office, and thus the system designed by the Lord is NOT hindered by the actions of such a follower, but allowed to expand and develop as the Lord sees fit.

 

The ritvik system is actually the perfect firewall to separate the cheaters from the honest.

 

The cheaters will never accept the ritvik system, and so they and the cheated have their own sahajya "pastimes".

 

The honest will follow and whatever the Lord and the Acarya had in mind will continue to unfold and expand transcendentally because of their willingness to cooperate with faith in the order, and then see what happens, instead of allowing their own lower mental analysis to convince them the Acarya was out of his mind one day, and it is up to them to heroically "fix" the acarya's system while feigning great awe and respect for said acarya.

 

There are many layers of defense as the Guardian of devotion has implied.

 

Hare Krsna

[realist]

Guruvani is right when he says Krishna's devotees never fall down from Goloka and Vaikuntha, therefore he wins the debate. THIS IS WHAT I FOUND SURFING THE WEB.

"Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul's falling into maya's influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

This is because most NEVER make that silly choice to enter the material 'dream' world of Maha Vishnu and forget Krishna and their own svarupa body. Such devotees desire to always remember Krishna and never choose any 'abstractional imagined self-glorifying substitute and therefore forget Him. Most marginal living entities (jiva-tatastha’s) prefer to never ever move into the ‘apparition’ creation of Maha-Vishnu however, that is their preference, choice and aspiration.

Most devotees therefore (75%) have ALWAYS remained aware of who they are ( SVARUPA) and what their service is to KRISHNA and NEVER 'dream' of coming here to the material world. Such devotee NEVER miss use their free will for self centred aspirations that cause them to forget Krishna and their everlasting ‘svarupa’ bodily identity, yet that option is always their regardless because of their marginal identity.

Such a preference to use their free will in the way they yearn actually allows the living entity to further increase their love or service to Krishna boundlessly as expected of an individual free thinking being. This is also what marginal means (a sovereign being) however, it also allows one to miss use it if they choose. And that is another reason why the material creation of Maha-Vishnu exists.

That’s the point Srila Prabhupada is making.

"The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature. And this minute independence may be utilised rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

"By the grace of Krishna, we have complete freedom. Because the Lord is kind to us, we can live anywhere, either in the spiritual sky or in the material sky, upon whichever planet we desire. However, misuse of this freedom causes one to fall down into the material world and suffer the threefold miseries of conditioned life. The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul's choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice, the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead.” Caitanya-caritamrita, Adi Lila 5.22, Purport

“Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krishna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, “All right, you enjoy like this.” Just like some of our students, Krishna conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped. Just like one goes to the prison house, not that government welcomes, “Come on. We have got prison house. Come here, come here.” He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that”. Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

"We have fallen down in this material world. But there are devotees in the spiritual world, in the Vaikunthaloka, they never come down. Never come down in this material world, but they are also persons like us, but eternal persons, with full knowledge and life of blissfulness. That is the difference between them and us". Srila Prabhupada (741105SB.BOM)

Then Srila Prabhupada futher clarifies this

"A living entity misuses his little independence when he wants to lord it over material nature. This misuse of independence, which is called maya, is always available, otherwise there would not be independence. Independence implies that one can use it properly or improperly". (Bhag. 3.31.15, purp.)

Those who never fall down simply choose to NEVER forget Krishna.

"The living beings are given as much freedom as they deserve, and misuse of that freedom is the cause of suffering. The devotees of the Lord do not misuse their freedom, and therefore they are the good sons of the Lord". (Bhag. 1.8.28, purp.)

Once again, that is their preference to never leave Goloka EXCEPT in Krishna Lila. These are imperative point to appreciate.

[Beggar]

Where does Prabhupada ever say or write that the jiva soul sojourning from body to body through 8,400,000 species of life has a "swarupa body" that already exists in Goloka? This if obviously an embelishment based on certain conversations and letters, but Prabhupada never used the "swarupa body" terminology which is part of a philosophy that takes analogies as literal facts. The concoction that we are in Goloka literally dreaming that we are here, when the dreaming concept is really only an analogy.

Another point is that there seems to be some sort of fixation on Goloka as if all jiva's serve Vraja Krsna. What about the devotees of Sita Rama, are we to assume that they originate in Goloka? Since they go or go back to Ayodhya then why would they originate in Goloka? And of course, again, there is the question: If the fallen jivas already have a "swarupa body" just like the eternal inhabitants of Goloka who are Krsna's internal associates then what's the difference between us and them? The answer again would be none, except that the nitya baddhas would be in a better position than the nitya siddhas because they don't ever have to come back to the material world after becoming siddha (BG 15.6). Then what's the point of calling the eternal sevitors of the Lord in Goloka siddhas of any type for their perfection would be actually nonexistent? Thus the Fall-Vadis have no answer. It seems that the Sleeper-Vadi apasiddhanta is really an atempt to create such an answer where there really is none. There are so many questions myself and others have asked the Sleeper-Vadi camp, yet it appears that have no real answers for these contradictions although they think that taking the dream analogies literally solves the contradictions which it doesn't. Another point is that it seems that both the Fall-Vadis and the Sleeper Vadis only have an interest in the most basic foundations of the Krsna Conscious philosophy. The more subtle points about Krsna and his lilas even from a safe philisophical approach seem to have almost no appeal to them. Perhaps it is because the higher level of bhakti as described in the pastimes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is really based on Vaisnava seva and Vaisnava bhakti. ye me bhakta jana-partha na me bhaktas ca te janah. "One who says he is My devotee is not My devotee, but one who worships My devotee is My real devotee." What's the point of worshiping the devotees if we are those devotees, ourselves, except that we don't know it because we are dreaming in Goloka? Remind me not to join such a religion!

[realist]

 

Where does Prabhupada ever say or write that the jiva soul sojourning from body to body through 8,400,000 species of life has a "swarupa body" that already exists in Goloka? This if obviously an embelishment based on certain conversations and letters, but Prabhupada never used the "swarupa body" terminology which is part of a philosophy that takes analogies as literal facts. The concoction that we are in Goloka literally dreaming that we are here, when the dreaming concept is really only an analogy.

Another point is that there seems to be some sort of fixation on Goloka as if all jiva's serve Vraja Krsna. What about the devotees of Sita Rama, are we to assume that they originate in Goloka? Since they go or go back to Ayodhya then why would they originate in Goloka? And of course, again, there is the question: If the fallen jivas already have a "swarupa body" just like the eternal inhabitants of Goloka who are Krsna's internal associates then what's the difference between us and them? The answer again would be none, except that the nitya baddhas would be in a better position than the nitya siddhas because they don't ever have to come back to the material world after becoming siddha (BG 15.6). Then what's the point of calling the eternal sevitors of the Lord in Goloka siddhas of any type for their perfection would be actually nonexistent? Thus the Fall-Vadis have no answer. It seems that the Sleeper-Vadi apasiddhanta is really an atempt to create such an answer where there really is none. There are so many questions myself and others have asked the Sleeper-Vadi camp, yet it appears that have no real answers for these contradictions although they think that taking the dream analogies literally solves the contradictions which it doesn't. Another point is that it seems that both the Fall-Vadis and the Sleeper Vadis only have an interest in the most basic foundations of the Krsna Conscious philosophy. The more subtle points about Krsna and his lilas even from a safe philisophical approach seem to have almost no appeal to them. Perhaps it is because the higher level of bhakti as described in the pastimes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is really based on Vaisnava seva and Vaisnava bhakti. ye me bhakta jana-partha na me bhaktas ca te janah. "One who says he is My devotee is not My devotee, but one who worships My devotee is My real devotee." What's the point of worshiping the devotees if we are those devotees, ourselves, except that we don't know it because we are dreaming in Goloka? Remind me not to join such a religion!

 

He did use the svarupa terminology I found these quotes on dandavats

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

In other words our Svarupa body is eternal even if we are dreaming we are in the maha-tattva or tatastha condition of consciousness. Also being in tatastha is NOT spiritual in the sense of devotional mellows as Srila Prabhupada has explained.

Also the meaning of the Sanskrit word Svarupa is explained by Srila Prabhupada - “Svarupa, or “one’s own form.” Purport Bhagavad-Gita as it is 4.6

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974

[realist]

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with Krishna, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

HANSADUTTA: It’s not a matter of aspiring to some –

PRABHUPADA: No, there is no question of aspiring, because he is already situated in the best of relationships with Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with Krishna, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada: “Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord”. - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE. The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky.

[Beggar]

 

This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE. The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky.

Of course Srila Prabhupada uses "swarupa terminology"; He is a Gaudiya Vaisnava, a follower of Srila Rupa Goswami. But he doesn't use it the way you do and he never says:

 

This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE.

Our siddha swarupa is currently in seed form only. The phraseology, "this clearly means" is an additional interpretation to the analogies given by Srila Prabhupada. It is a misguided attempt to embelish what Srila Prabhupada has given and is an example of making an apasiddhantic addition to his preaching and siddhanta.

I am asking you again the questions which you continue to avoid. If the conditioned souls have "swarupa bodies" in Goloka then what is the difference between them and the eternal, internal associates of Krsna?

Why would conditioned souls be assured of never coming back to the material world, and Krsna's beloved intimates have no such protection? Such a situation would render Krsna's promise, na me bhakta pranasyati, "My devotee will never perish", null and void. If the internal associates of the Lord are fallible or if fall does not exist, even dreaming that they are fallen, then what makes them worshipable and objects of our service? Instead of saying in his humility, "I am lower than a worm in the stool", why doesn't Srila Krsna das Kaviraja say, that I am dreaming that I am lower than a worm in the stool? Thirty years in outer space without any living divine guidance for many so-called followers of Srila Prabhupada and we have a Tower of Babel. So much babelling nonsense!

[realist]

Yeah it’s a difficult proposal to understand because of the terminologies. Maybe the word ‘dream’ is not a good word either. Because of the time factor in Vaikuntha. Maybe its like putting a DVD on pause, going off to something else and on return we take the ‘pause’ off. So it’s not that we are dreaming from Vaikuntha either. It’s a difficult one to understand. Maybe everyone is saying the same thing in different ways although the ‘pause the DVD’ analogy suggests we are in Vaikuntha.

[Guruvani]

The “svarupa” of the jiva is perfectly explained by Lord Chaitanya in his teachings to Srila Rupa Goswami.

Despite some ideas that the original svarupa of the jiva was a spiritual body as an associate of Krishna in Goloka/Vaikuntha, Lord Chaitanya describes the “svarupa” of the jiva as being a spirit spark 1/10,000th the size the tip of a hair.

Here is Lord Chaitanya’s definitive and unambiguous pronouncement on the “svarupa” of the living entity.

quote:

Chapter 19: Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu Instructs Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.139

 

keśāgra-śateka-bhāga punaḥ śatāḿśa kari

tāra sama sūkṣma jīvera ’svarūpa’ vicāri

 

SYNONYMS

keśa-agra — from the tip of a hair; śata-eka — one hundred; bhāga — divisions; punaḥ — again; śata-aḿśa — one hundred divisions; kari — making; tāra sama — equal to that; sūkṣma — very fine; jīvera — of the living entity; svarūpa — the actual form; vicāri — I consider.

 

TRANSLATION

“The length and breadth of the living entity is described as one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. This is the original subtle nature of the living entity.

end quote.

 

Lord Chaitanya instructed Srila Rupa Goswami that the original svarupa of the jiva and the original subtle nature of the jiva was as a spirit spark 1/10,000th the size the tip of a hair.

The theory that we have a spiritual form in Goloka that we have lost remembrance of necessitates that maya penetrated the svarupa-shakti of Vaikuntha/Goloka and influenced the jiva to forget Krishna.

Maya cannot influence the liberated devotees of Krishna in the spiritual world.

Maya cannot enter there to do her work.

 

quote:

Chapter 9: Answers by Citing the Lord’s Version

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.10

 

pravartate yatra rajas tamas tayoḥ

sattvaḿ ca miśraḿ na ca kāla-vikramaḥ

na yatra māyā kim utāpare harer

anuvratā yatra surāsurārcitāḥ

 

SYNONYMS

pravartate — prevail; yatra — wherein; rajaḥ tamaḥ — the modes of passion and ignorance; tayoḥ — of both of them; sattvam — the mode of goodness; ca — and; miśram — mixture; na — never; ca — and; kāla — time; vikramaḥ — influence; na — neither; yatra — therein; māyā — illusory, external energy; kim — what; uta — there is; apare — others; hareḥ — of the Personality of Godhead; anuvratāḥ — devotees; yatra — wherein; sura — by the demigods; asura — and the demons; arcitāḥ — worshiped.

 

TRANSLATION

In that personal abode of the Lord, the material modes of ignorance and passion do not prevail, nor is there any of their influence in goodness. There is no predominance of the influence of time, so what to speak of the illusory, external energy; it cannot enter that region. Without discrimination, both the demigods and the demons worship the Lord as devotees.

end quote.

 

So, considering that maya cannot enter the spiritual world and tempt the devotees, we have to conclude that the theory of the dormant spiritual body in the spiritual world cannot be factual.

A fall from Goloka necessitates that maya has penetrated the svarupa-shakti and put devotees into illusion.

According to the shastric siddhanta this is an impossibility.

Mahaprabhu has properly narrated the svarupa of the jiva as being a spirit spark 1/10,000 the size the tip of a hair.

Anything beyond this idea is speculation that cannot be verified by shastra.

[Guruvani]

 

Of course Srila Prabhupada uses "swarupa terminology"; He is a Gaudiya Vaisnava, a follower of Srila Rupa Goswami. But he doesn't use it the way you do and he never says:

Our siddha swarupa is currently in seed form only.

Doesn't that "seed" comes with the bhakta-lata-bija in the form of mantra?

Depending upon the seed that one gets from the guru one will develop a relationship with Krishna.

In the different sampradayas different seeds are received.

 

In the Ramanuja sect is the seed of aishvarya bhakti.

In the Gaudiya sampradaya one gets the seed of Krishna-bhakti.

 

Without the seed of bhakti-lata-bija devotional service can never really develop.

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.152 purport,

 

The bhakti-latā-bīja is the origin of devotional service. Unless one satisfies the spiritual master, he gets the bīja, or root cause, of karma, jñāna and yoga without the benefit of devotional service. But one who is faithful to his spiritual master gets the bhakti-latā-bīja. This bhakti-latā-bīja is received when one is initiated by the bona fide spiritual master.

[Guruvani]

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.153

 

upajiyā bāḍe latā 'brahmāṇḍa' bhedi' yāya

'virajā', 'brahma-loka' bhedi' 'para-vyoma' pāya

 

SYNONYMS

upajiyā — being cultivated; bāḍe — grows; latā — the creeper of devotional service; brahmāṇḍa — the whole universe; bhedi' — penetrating; yāya — goes; virajā — the river between the spiritual world and the material world; brahma-loka — the Brahman effulgence; bhedi' — penetrating; para-vyoma — the spiritual sky; pāya — attains.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"As one waters the bhakti-latā-bīja, the seed sprouts, and the creeper gradually grows to the point where it penetrates the walls of this universe and goes beyond the Virajā River, lying between the spiritual world and the material world. It attains brahma-loka, the Brahman effulgence, and penetrating through that stratum, it reaches the spiritual sky and the spiritual planet Goloka Vṛndāvana.

 

 

PURPORT

A creeper generally takes shelter of a big tree, but the bhakti-latā, being the creeper of spiritual energy, cannot take shelter of any material planet, for there is no tree on any material planet that the bhakti creeper can utilize for shelter. In other words, devotional service cannot be utilized for any material purpose. Devotional service is meant only for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Sometimes men with a poor fund of knowledge maintain that bhakti can be applied to material things also. In other words, they say that devotional service can be rendered to one's country or to the demigods, but this is not a fact. Devotional service is especially meant for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and it is beyond this material range. There is a river, or causal ocean, between the spiritual and material natures, and this river is free from the influence of the three modes of material nature; therefore it is called Virajā. The prefix vi means vigata ("completely eradicated"), and rajas means "the influence of the material world." On this platform, a living entity is completely free from material entanglement. For the jñānīs who want to merge into the Brahman effulgence, there is Brahma-loka. The bhakti-latā, however, has no shelter in the material world, nor has it shelter in Brahma-loka, although Brahma-loka is beyond the material world. The bhakti-latā grows until it reaches the spiritual sky, where Goloka Vṛndāvana is situated.

 

[Beggar]

 

Doesn't that "seed" comes with the bhakta-lata-bija in the form of mantra?

Depending upon the seed that one gets from the guru one will develop a relationship with Krishna.

 

The root of the Fall ("sleeper and DVD") apasiddhantas is a failure to properly adjust and harmonize apparently opposite concepts. The following two key verses in Caitanya Caritamrta are pivitol and a very clear example:

 

nitya-siddha krishna-prema 'sadhya' kabhu naya

sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya

 

"Pure love for Krishna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens.

 

 

krishna-bhakti-janma-mula haya 'sadhu-sanga'

krishna-prema janme, tenho punah mukhya anga

 

"The root cause of devotional service to Lord Krishna is association with advanced devotees. Even when one's dormant love for Krishna awakens, association with devotees is still most essential.

 

 

 

Krsna prema is the highest form of Krsna bhakti, so both verses are describing different aspects of Krsna bhakti or devotional service. The first verse says that it is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities and the second verse says in the second verse Srila Prabhupada harmonizes these two opposite concepts in his translation. Yet the sloka, krsna bhakti janma mula haya 'sadhu sanga' literally says that the mula or root of the janma or birth of Krsna bhakti (which includes Krsna prema and visa versa) in the heart of the jiva takes place through sadhu sanga or association with an advanced Vaisnava(s). Sadhu sanga means association with someone or persons who are sat. Sat is the basis of the word sadhu. Eventually one accepts the bhakti lata bija or seed of bhakti from a sadhu in the form of diksa. On the one hand we are told that Krsna bhakti and prema are internal and always there, yet on the other hand we are told it is something that we receive from a sadhu. In the following presentation Srila Sridhar Maharaja discusses this issue and basis his conception on that of Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur whom he also quotes.

 

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja:

 

 

Krishna consciousness is the cause of Krishna consciousness! And we have to get help from the sadhus who have got Krishna consciousness within them. Just as, from one candle another cadle may be lit. A candle cannot produce light from within, but it is to be lit from another candle - it is something like that. We are to awaken our buried Krishna consciousness, which is covered by 'anyabhilasa-karmma-jnana'; so, that light, that association, will come to help the sleeping Krishna consciousness within us, and our consciousness will arise from it's sleep and show itself, as it is. So, the method is that: to take sadhu-sanga - krsna-bhakti janma-mula, haya sadhu-sanga - association with the sadhu, devotee of Krishna, is the root-cause of Krishna consciousness.

At the same time, it is told that Krishna consciousness is ahaituki, causeless. How are we to harmonise these truths? - Krishna-bhakti, faith in Krishna, or devotion to Krishna, we can get from the sadhu; at the same time it is told that it is 'causeless'.

In this connection, Visvanath Cakravarti Thakur has explained the meaning of ahaituki in this verse from Srimad Bhagavatam:

sa vai pumsam paro dharmo

yatho bhaktir adhoksaje

ahaituky apratihata

yayatma suprasidati

(SB 1:2:6)

["The supreme occupation (dharma) for all humanity is that by which man can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be causeless and uninterrupted, to completely satisfy the self."]

He explains that here, Krsna-bhakti is described as ahaituki, causeless, and also apratihata, continuous - so when it is awakened in our heart, we can feel that our heart is getting wonderfully satisfied, yayatma suprasidati. The satisfaction is produced in our heart, we can feel it. Ahaituky apratihata: it has no cause; and it cannot be checked, cannot be opposed, opposition cannot have any effect there - it is such. Bhakti comes from bhakti. In this way it is ahaituki. Just as, the light is there and another candle is lit from it. From light, light is coming. In this way we are to trace it out, to understand it: the original Light, that is eternal, self-existent, and is extending itself, so it has no cause, it is 'causeless'. The cause is there eternally, and it is extending itself.

[Guruvani]

In response to the last post by Beggar I would just like to mention a couple of points.

According to these shastric verses and the teachings of Mahaprabhu, we find that "love of Krishna" is already in the heart of the jiva.

What is not already in the heart of the jiva is the seed of devotional service.

Without devotional service this dormant love of Krishna cannot be awakened and nourished.

What I read in these teachings is that love of Krishna or the potential for such is already there in the heart of the living entity..

What the living entity needs to make that dormant or potential love of Krishna to awaken is the seed of Bhakti.

 

We have to see the difference between this dormant love of Krishna and the actual seed of devotional service.

 

The love is already potentially there, but the seed of devotion is missing until it is received by guru or sadhu.

 

Without this seed of devotional service, the dormant capacity to love Krishna can never be awakened.

 

So, love of Krishna is already there in the heart.

But, the seed of bhakti has to be received before this dormant love of Krishna can be aroused.

 

Prema and bhakti are distinct and different concepts.

Without bhakti the prema can never be aroused in the heart of the jiva.

[Beggar]

Sri Guru-vandana (3) Srila Narottama das Thakur

 

cakhu-dan dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei

divya-jnan hrde prokasito

prema-bhakti jaha hoite, avidya vinasa jate,

vede gay jahara carito

 

 

"He who has given me the gift of transcendental vision is my lord, birth after birth. By his mercy divine knowledge is revealed within the heart, bestowing prema-bhakti and destroying ignorance. The Vedic scriptures sing of his character."

Don't get lost in defintions. Remember Cakravarti Thakur is trying to harmonize how if the devotee is the root cause of Krsna Consciousness then how can it be ahaituky apratihata or causeless.

Prabhupada told Sridhar Maharaja that the term Krsna Conciousness comes from the first line of the famous sloka, Krsna bhakti rasa bhavitah matih. There are three kinds of bhakti: sadhana bhakti, bhava bhakti and prema bhakti. Not only is prema bhakti latent within the heart but so is the tendency for Krsna's service.

[Guruvani]

 

Sri Guru-vandana (3) Srila Narottama das Thakur

 

cakhu-dan dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei

divya-jnan hrde prokasito

prema-bhakti jaha hoite, avidya vinasa jate,

vede gay jahara carito

 

 

He who has given me the gift of transcendental vision is my lord, birth after birth. By his mercy divine knowledge is revealed within the heart, bestowing prema-bhakti and destroying ignorance. The Vedic scriptures sing of his character.

 

The person who bestows the gift of divine vision and implants transcendental knowledge within the heart remains my prabhu life after life. All the Vedas sing of his glories because through him prema-bhakti manifests to destroy all ignorance.

Is prema-bhakti bestowed by the guru or does it manifest through his mercy?

 

Depends on which translation you are reading.

 

I guess we need a real scholar to sort it out.

That I am not.

[Beggar]

 

 

 

But also remember Prabhupada's definition of "Krsna Consciousness", Krsna bhakti rasa bhavitah matih. Prabhupada would always use the terms "Krsna Conciousness" and "devotional service" interchangibly. Yet from a deeper perspective the Gaudiya Vaisnavas are only interested in pure devotional service. The most famous verse describing this is Srila Rupa Goswami's:

 

 

anyabhilasita sunyam

jnana-karmady anavrtam

anukulyena krsnanu-

silanam bhaktir uttamam

(Sri Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu)

[Guruvani]

 

By his mercy divine knowledge is revealed within the heart, bestowing prema-bhakti and destroying ignorance.

 

By his mercy divine knowledge is revealed in the heart and this divine knowledge bestows prema-bhakti?

[Beggar]

 

By his mercy divine knowledge is revealed in the heart and this divine knowledge bestows prema-bhakti?

 

prema-bhakti jaha hoite, avidya vinasa jate

prema-bhakti jaha hoite. How about prema bhakti is emanating from Sri Guru and avidya vinasa jate, that prema bhakti destroys the ingnorance within the heart?

[Guruvani]

 

prema-bhakti jaha hoite, avidya vinasa jate

prema-bhakti jaha hoite. How about prema bhakti is emanating from Sri Guru and avidya vinasa jate, that prema bhakti destroys the ingnorance within the heart?

 

Maybe.

 

But, the orginal translation you posted says:

 

By his mercy divine knowledge is revealed within the heart, bestowing prema-bhakti and destroying ignorance.

 

To me it is saying that the guru reveals divine knowledge that bestows prema-bhakti and destroys ignorance.

 

If we follow Mahaprabhu's teaching that the prema is already in the heart, I don't see how the verse can mean anything else.

 

If Mahaprabhu says that prema is already in the heart then we cannot then say that it is bestowed by the guru.

 

The guru bestows knowledge and the bhakti-lata-bija.

This seed of devotion sprouts into service and through service and sacrifice the prema awakens.

 

I cannot challenge Mahaprabhu's version that the prema is already in the heart.

Any verses or statements by the acharyas that seem to say otherwise are simply being misunderstood as far as I can see.

 

The guru gives the seed of devotion.

He doesn't give prema because the prema is already there according to Mahaprabhu.

 

But, without devotional service this prema cannot awaken.

 

To me this is all very simple.

 

The guru doesn't give prema.

Mahaprabhu says it is already there in the heart.

 

The guru gives the seed, the impetus to serve Krishna which will awaken that innate prema of the heart.

[Guruvani]

Caitanya-caritāmṛta (Madhya 22.107)

 

 

nitya-siddha-kṛṣṇa-prema 'sādhya' kabhu naya

śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya

 

Dormant devotional service to Kṛṣṇa is within everyone. Simply by associating with devotees, hearing their good instructions and chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, dormant love for Kṛṣṇa is awakened. In this way one acquires the seed of devotional service. Guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja.

[Beggar]

Ontologically this is the same exact argument that transpires over the origin of the soul issue. It's basis is exactly the same, that is, apparently opposite meanings in certain verses. Mahaprabhu tells both,

 

 

nitya-siddha krishna-prema 'sadhya' kabhu naya

sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya

 

and

krishna-bhakti-janma-mula haya 'sadhu-sanga'

krishna-prema janme, tenho punah mukhya anga

 

The contradiction lies in the attempt to explain inconcievable concepts that are simultaneously contradictory and harmonious within language which has it's limitations. This is compounded by our attempt to understand these transcendental concepts in our English speaking puppy brains.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guruvani]

I don't believe that anyone can give anyone love of anyone.

Love is something that wells up from within.

It is not something that comes to us from outside our hearts.

 

Nobody can give us love of our spiritual master either.

We love people because they have qualities we appreciate and admire.

 

The guru gives us the ways and means of devotional service.

If we follow that then love of Krishna MIGHT awaken in our heart.

 

As Srila Sridhar Maharaja would say "only Krishna can give himself".

Nobody can give Krishna unless Krishna is willing.

 

I think the Gaudiya siddhanta is that chanting the Holy Name of Krishna is what awakens love of Krishna.

 

Nobody can give us love.

Love is something that comes natural when we have an irresistable attraction to someone.

 

Love means sacrifice.

Nobody can give us sacrifice.

We have to practice sacrifice in love and then that love will grow.

 

The guru gives us the methods of sacrifice that we can perform to awaken love of Krishna in the heart.

 

I don't believe in the concept that the guru touches the disciple and injects him with energy or divine love.

 

Love is something we feel inside our heart.

I don't believe that it can be given to us.

We have to develop it through devotion and dedication.

 

The guru can give us instructions.

He can't give us love.

 

As Srila Prabhupada has written, love of Krishna is an epithet of hladini shakti or the ecstatic potency.

I am quite sure that the Holy Name is what bestows the hladini shakti as she is Krishna's potency to give.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Our siddha swarupa is currently in seed form only. The phraseology, "this clearly means" is an additional interpretation to the analogies given by Srila Prabhupada.

 

You and Guruvani plus the’ so called’ swamis and guru’s who support such nonsense do not understand that ‘seed form’ means our eternal svarupa bodily form that is eternally founded, placed and endlessly situated beyond mundane time and space within Goloka or Vaikuntha. In other words ‘we’ are already there and we just have to become Krishna consciously 'realized' enough to realize who we genuinly are for all eternity as our imperisgable svarupa or nitya-siddha body.

 

The real offensive Mayavadis are those who cannot understand the simple teachings of Srila Prabhupada who has said on many occasions we are eternally in Goloka and only think or dream we are not there.

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Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

<font face=" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

"Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Hansadutta - "It’s not a matter of aspiring to some –

Srila Prabhupada – "No, there is no question of aspiring, because he is already situated in the best of relationships with <st1:place>Krishna"</st1:place>.

Srila Prabhupada –"When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream.lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - “So as eternal servitors of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. That is our downfall”. Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated <st1:date Year="1967" Day="27" Month="8">August 27, 1967</st1:date>

This 'clearly means' our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE.

The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky.

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by <st1:City><st1:place>Milton</st1:place></st1:City> in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in <st1:country-region><st1:place>Australia</st1:place></st1:country-region>

Srila Prabhupada - “Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna” Letter to Australian devotees 1972

When we’re dreaming, we think it’s real. It seems real, no matter how mixed up the dream is. That’s life in the material world. We think it’s real, but it’s not. It’s a real dream. But still a dream.

Srila Prabhupada - “when the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” <st1:City><st1:place>Bombay</st1:place></st1:City>, <st1:date Year="1972" Day="27" Month="12">December 27, 1972</st1:date>

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - "When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream.lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - "Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

In conclusion, the marginal living entities (tatastha s’akti) nitya-siddha identity is perpetually beyond the mundane decaying effect of time and space in the material creation (mahat-tattva) and is ‘always’ in Goloka. In other words ones eternal svarupa is always in Goloka.

[Beggar]

 

The guru can give us instructions.

He can't give us love.

 

The highest conception is that the guru IS Srimati Radharani!

[Beggar]

“This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming" (Bhag.11.2.38)

"Compared" never means exactly the same. That is why it is an analogy. There are many similarities between “This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna" and "acts of dreaming". If it is only a comparison then there are also differences. Look at the word "imaginary". Within it is the word "image". These English words have denotations and conotations. In current English usage imaginary implies a phantasmagoria. Within that word is the word "phantom" which at one time meant ghost. In a sense our material existence is ghost-like because we are haunted by bhukti and mukti.

Mystics and yogis can control their dreams but they can become so powerful that what they dream can manifest is the gross realm. Srila Prabhupada was definitely giving insight into the nature of consciousness of the jiva souls. None of the previous sages and acaryas are contradicting that, “This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming". In fact this is coming directly from Srimad Bhagavatam through the realization of of Srila Prabhupada.

As Guruvani was doing in a recent post, Srila Prabhupada was stressing the nature of our freedom to choose Krsna or Maya. Love must always be voluntary or it is not love. So from this viewpoint, we can see that the eternal lovers of Krsna could fall down if they wanted. Yet from another viewpoint since Maha Maya cannot enter the Vaikunthas it is not possible for those who have eternally loved Krsna to be allured by Her. And that is why no one ever really falls from Vaikuntha. Your additions to the Krsna Consciousness philosophy are based are taking analogies literally which is an error in logical thinking. Those who understand that analogies have limitations are not Mayavadis by that fact alone. But those who believe that some of the internal associates of the Lord are now rotting in the Material World and suffering the three-fold miseries are offenders to those exalted souls. Those who believe that once they go back to Godhead that they will never return to the Material World while the eternal associates of Bhagavan that they will rub shoulders with, will be falling down (or even dreaming such) have a poor fund of knowledge. The tradgedy is that they are now making an organized campaign to mislead others.

[Guruvani]

 

The highest conception is that the guru IS Srimati Radharani!

 

I think that Srila Sridhar Maharaja has explained that functionally the guru is Radha or a manifestation of Lord Nityananda.

 

These are functional conceptions not literal.

The guru performs the function of Radha or Lord Nityananda.

Each and every guru is not Radha or Nitai but the guru performs as Radha or Nitai functionally in the role of guru.

 

The guru can be a jiva.

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 7.14 purport,

 

The jīva-tattva servitor, the spiritual master, is actually the servitor God.

 

So, since Radha and Nitai are not jivas, the jiva-tattva guru is simply performing functionally as Radha or Nitai.