Fall theory is worse than Mayavada says Narasingha Maharaja

sevabhakta · November 4, 2007

What's the matter Sleepyheads?

Too tired out to challenge Srila Prabhupada's conclusion??

Guruvani · November 4, 2007

What's the matter Sleepyheads?

Too tired out to challenge Srila Prabhupada's conclusion??

They are never too tired to defend their pride and their political agenda to defend all the sleepervadis with many years devoted to promoting their bogus fairytale siddhanta.

Some people have careers and positions that depend on defending the fairytale.

They will never stop preaching the fairytale even if they know they are wrong.

Kulapavana · November 5, 2007

Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 15, Text 16

dvav imau purushau loke

ksharas cakshara eva ca

ksharah sarvani bhutani

kuta-stho ’kshara ucyate

Translation

There are two classes of beings, the fallible and the infallible. In the material world every living entity is fallible, and in the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible.

--------------

Nobody falls from the spiritual world. We all fell from the demarcation line between the material and the spiritual world (tatastha). This is what all acharyas preach. We have never been in the spiritual world. Never. Find one verse in the Gita where Krsna says we fell from the spiritual world. Krsna explains the most secret knowledge there, after knowing which there is no more to be learned. If you claim that Srila Prabhupada preaches differently than Krsna then I say you are 100% bogus.

BG 15.6. "That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world."

Krsna does not say: "One who returns to my abode never again falls down" - why? because we have never been there.

Svarupa · November 5, 2007

I think the final say in all of this is humbly explained as follows-

“In absolute reality there is no such thing as three features of time. The problem with this discussion is that we are trying to filter God through the limits of three aspects of time. If there was no past and if there is no future, then the question ceases to exist.In the Bhagavatam's description of creation, the time factor only influences material existence from the point of the Mahat-tattva (i.e. after the agitation of the pradhana). Vishnu, who exists beyond material influence has no limiting connection to this three fold illusory time. And since time only manifests at the point of material creation, when we return there we would never have been gone”. Jahnava Nitai Das

Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur explains in this way, “Actually it should be understood that Drona and Dhara, who were sadhana-siddhas, entered into the nitya-siddha forms of Nanda and Yasoda at that time.”

Therefore not only do we all have our nitya-siddha bodily form in Goloka, but our 'rasa' can change however we can only understand that when we are Krishna Conscious.

With that comment I sign out and if anyone needs to know how Prabhupada explains the truth of how we are all originally nitya siddha and came down from Goloka, then visit http://religion.krishna.org/Articles/2000/08/00083.html or

http://www.dandavats.com/?p=4275

Hare Krishna I'm going to go out to distibute some BTG's, I think thats what Prabhupada would rather I do.

Hare Krishna

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

You and Guruvani plus the’ so called’ swamis and guru’s who support such nonsense do not understand that ‘seed form’ means our eternal svarupa bodily form that is eternally founded, placed and endlessly situated beyond mundane time and space within Goloka or Vaikuntha. In other words ‘we’ are already there and we just have to become Krishna consciously 'realized' enough to realize who we genuinly are for all eternity as our imperisgable svarupa or nitya-siddha body.

The real offensive Mayavadis are those who cannot understand the simple teachings of Srila Prabhupada who has said on many occasions we are eternally in Goloka and only think or dream we are not there.

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture " />

Srila Prabhupada –"When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream.lecture <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com > <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =

[font=/><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

[font=][font=/><st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

<FONT]Krishna" /><st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - “So as eternal servitors of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. That is our downfall”. Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated <st1:date Month="8" Day="27" Year="1967">August 27, 1967</st1:date>

This 'clearly means' our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE.

The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky.

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by <st1:City><st1:place>Milton</st1:place></st1:City> in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in <st1:country-region><st1:place>Australia</st1:place></st1:country-region>

Srila Prabhupada - “Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna” Letter to Australian devotees 1972

When we’re dreaming, we think it’s real. It seems real, no matter how mixed up the dream is. That’s life in the material world. We think it’s real, but it’s not. It’s a real dream. But still a dream.

Srila Prabhupada - “when the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” <st1:City><st1:place>Bombay</st1:place></st1:City>, <st1:date Month="12" Day="27" Year="1972">December 27, 1972</st1:date>

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - "When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream.lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - "Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

In conclusion, the marginal living entities (tatastha s’akti) nitya-siddha identity is perpetually beyond the mundane decaying effect of time and space in the material creation (mahat-tattva) and is ‘always’ in Goloka. In other words ones eternal svarupa is always in Goloka.

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Kulapavana · November 5, 2007

There is no single shastric verse that supports the sleeper-vadi theory. All you folks have is allegories from Prabhupada's purports. Simple tales for simple people.

Svarupa · November 5, 2007

Guruvani and all your buddies, there is an impersonal ring to how you have understood the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. You all do not explain or possibly do not understand that the effulgence of Krishna (His Brahman effulgence) is founded on Personalism.

In the Purport to 4.30.5, Srila Prabhupada does say, as you note, “The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.”

However, he does not say that is the conclusion to the “origin debate”. You are quoting Prabhupada out of context and missing his meaning, IMHO.

In the Purport you cited, Srila Prahupada is giving the conclusion to verses like “krishna surya sama; maya kaya andhakara”; “prabhasmi sasi suryayoh” and “yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti.”

He is describing what is meant by comparisons of Krishna to the illuminating sun in the darkness of the material world. He is not discussing, let alone “concluding,” the debate about whether the conditioned jivas have ever associated with Krishna in the spiritual world

Srila Prabhupada explains the following of what Krishna’s effulgence, Brahmajyoti or lustre is -

“The word varnam refers to the lustre (effulgence) of one’s original identity. The original lustre of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original lustre of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], is the lustre of ānanda, or pleasure”. Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada - “Within this effulgence there are innumerable spiritual planets, and they are known as the Vaikuntha planets. Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Visnu. These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord. They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time.” (Bhag. 1.14.36)

Srila Prabhupada - “We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are LIKE the shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – Hawaii, January 28, 1974

Svarupa Damodara - “The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material”.

Srila Prabhupada - “He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies.” .Svarupa Damodara wedsite

“The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

“The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can’t be eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

Srila Prabhupada – ‘This ordinary living being is of two kinds — nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.’ SB 5.11.12 Purport

Then Srila Prabhupada explains.

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, (NITYA-BADDHA) but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

Srila Prabhupada “This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad by Srila Prabhupada Part Two

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many who wrongly believe that the jiva-soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will, therefore their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is obviously impersonal and therefore dangerous. Such sects do not understand the correct PERSONAL teaching of the Vedas given to us by Jagat Guru His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

http://www.dandavats.com/?p=4275

Beggar · November 5, 2007

The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many who wrongly believe that the jiva-soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will, therefore their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is obviously impersonal and therefore dangerous. Such sects do not understand the correct PERSONAL teaching of the Vedas given to us by Jagat Guru His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

The semblance or dim reflection of the internal Cit-potency is the jiva-sakti (potency) or Tatastha-sakti stationed in between cit-jagat and a-cit-jagat or mayic-jagat whereas the shadow or perverted reflection of that internal cit potency is the maya-sakti or external a-cit potency. All the jivas emanate from the tatastha-sakti of God and accordingly the mundane worlds emanate from the maya-sakti of God. (Sri Srimad Bhagavat-arka Marichimala, chap. 1, Introd., By Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura)

Visnu has three energies, one of them is meant for manifestation of His eternal abode, another Potency is for creating all human souls who are emanations from His tatastha-sakti found between the temporal and eternal worlds. By this potency He creates human souls. The human soul has two different predilections. If he desires to serve Godhead he is allowed into the Eternal Region. If he desires to lord it over this world he comes down for enjoying in different capacities the products of the Deluding Potency. (Sri Caitanya's Teacings-Part II, Chapter One, Third Edition, p. 365-6 by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur)

Just another attempt by fanatics from ISKCON origins to divorce Srila Prabhupada from his entire guru parampara. It doesn't work, you are only divorcing yourself from his guru parampara (varga).

Kulapavana · November 5, 2007

Just another attempt by fanatics from ISKCON origins to divorce Srila Prabhupada from his entire guru parampara. It doesn't work, you are only divorcing yourself from the his guru parampara (varga).

yes, the sleeper-vada does not meet the necessary criteria of guru, sadhu, and shastra, just like the "we fell from Goloka" theory in general does not meet that criteria. It is just a misguided sentimentalism.

Svarupa · November 5, 2007

The following are comments on the origin of the jiva soul by Drutakarma dasa who scripturally answers two comments from those who previously believed the jiva souls have an impersonal origin. Drutakarma prabhu clearly explains how our origins are found in our eternal svarupa bodily position perpetually situated in Goloka -.

COMMENT: "Your conclusion Drutakarma assumes from the statement: in the past you had a very intimate friend.’ To me this refers to relation with paramatma which [is] mentioned in the verses, and relationship with paramatma is at best neutral rasa. When it refers to friend, the lord is the friend to all eternally, though the jiva does not recognize him as friend."

Drutakarma's explains: "The friend is not only paramatma but ultimately Krishna Himself, who is appearing now in the form of Supersoul to speak to Vaidarbhi about the former intimate relationship she had with Him.

Srila Prabhupada said:

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Paramatma, appeared before the queen as a brahmana, but why didn't He appear in His original form of Sri Krsna?" (SB 4.28.51 purport).

This question indicates that it could just as well have been Sri Krsna who addressed the words "in the past you had a very intimate friend" to the Queen.

Prabhupada answered the question thus:

"Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura remarks that unless one is very highly elevated in loving the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one cannot see Him as He is.(SB 4.28.51 purport).

The question and its answer suggest that the original intimate friendly relationship of the Queen was with Krsna,and not His Supersoul expansion.

Also,in text 4.29.4,Narada Muni,who told the story of the brahmana and Queen Vaidarbhi, said:

yo 'vijnatahrtas tasya

purusasya sakhesvarah

yan na vijnayate pumbhir

namabhir va kriya-gunaih

"The person I have described as unknown is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master and eternal friend of the living entity. Since the living entities cannot realize the Supreme Personality of Godhead by material names, activities, or qualities,He remains everlastingly unknown to the conditioned soul."

The relevant synonyms are purusasya “of the living entity,” sakha "the eternal friend," and isvarah “the master."

COMMENT: "Drutakarma you are often dwelling on individual word meanings such as "again", “reinstated,forgetfulness" cannot be conclusive to show a previous direct relationship.

Drutakarma again further explains: "Consider this text (4.28.59):

tasmims tvam ramaya sprsto

ramamano 'sruta-smrtih

tat-sangad idrsim prapto

dasam papiyasam prabho

"My dear friend, when you enter such a body along with the woman of material desires, you become overly absorbed in sense enjoyment. Because of this you have forgotten your spiritual life. Due to your material conceptions, you are placed in various material conditions."

Asruta smrtih is translated by Srila Prabhupada as “without remembrance of spiritual existence." The nature of that spiritual existence, intimate friendship with Krsna has been described in previous verses. Here it is clear that dwelling on the individual word meaning "forgetfulness" is in fact conclusive.

Also text 4.28.64

evam sa manaso hamso

hamsena pratibodhitah

sva-sthas tad vyabhicarena

nastam apa punah smrtim

"In this way both swans live together in the heart. When the one swan is instructed by the other, he is situated in his constitutional position. This means he regains his original Krsna consciousness, which was lost because of his material attraction."

Very clear translation. The living being was originally Krsna conscious. And he lost this Krsna consciousness because of material attraction. This verse does not say that the jiva was never at any time a servant of Krsna.

The Sanskrit here is also very clear.

The synonyms given by Srila Prabhupada are nastam "which was lost", apa "gained", punah "again",smrtim "real memory."

In other words, that which was lost is regained. I do not see how anyone can argue with this. It is right there in the Bhagavatam, in the Sanskrit. And the purport, naturally, goes right along with it. Here follow some excerpts.

"When the inferior swan is separated from the other swan, he is attracted to material enjoyment. This is the cause of his falldown. When he hears the instructions of the other swan, he understands his real position and is again revived to his original consciousness." Bhag. 4.28.64 purport

"The word sva-sthah, meaning `situated in one's original position,' is very significant in this verse. When one gives up his unwanted attitude of superiority, he becomes situated in his original position. The word tad-vyabhicarena is also significant, for it indicates that when one is separated from God due to disobedience, his real sense is lost. Again, by the grace of Krsna and guru, he can be properly situated in his liberated position. These verses are spoken by Srila Narada Muni, and his purpose in speaking them is to revive our consciousness." Bhag. 4.28.64 purport

Narada Muni further states in text 4.29.26:

yadatmanam avijnaya

bhagavantam param gurum

purusas tu visajjeta

gunesu prakrteh sva-drk

"The living entity by nature has minute independence to choose his own good or bad fortune, but when he forgets his supreme master, the Personality of Godhead, he gives himself up to unto the modes of material nature."

The important synonyms are atmanam "the Supreme Soul," avijnaya “forgetting,"bhagavantam "the Supreme Personality of Godhead," param "supreme,” gurum "the instructor,"indicating that one forgets the Supreme Lord Krsna. Note the word bhagavantam, clearly indicating Krsna, not simply the Supersoul.

In his purport, Srila Prabhupada states:

"It is clearly stated herein that the living entity has a little independence, indicated by the word sva-drk, meaning `one who can see his own welfare.' The living entity's constitutional position is very minute, and he can be misled in his choice. He may choose to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead. A servant may desire to start his own business and imitate his master, and when he chooses to do so, he may leave the protection of his master. Sometimes he is a failure, and sometimes he is successful. Similarly, the living entity, part and parcel of Krsna, starts his own business to compete with the Lord." Bhag. 4.29.26 purport

Drutakarma in this way clearly explains that it is comprehensible that originally there is a master-servant relationship going on, and that it gets forgotten. Liberation means remembering it, remembering our eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa identity that is eternally founded and situated beyond mundane time and space. Therefore full expression and complete potential of ALL marginal living entities is their perpetual ’svarupa’ body that is eternally situated and established within Goloka or Vaikuntha. Therefore it can then be said that the marginal living entities who have miss-used their free will and chose to enter the maha-tattva, are only temporarily trapped within the material creation, while their undying ‘svarupa’ body is currently laying dormant (hidden from their present awareness) within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Of course this viewpoint is only from the marginal living entities perspective or standpoint within the material creation. Their conditional existence continues on until the marginal living entity again becomes responsive enough to perceive their true original Krishna Conscious bodily foundation within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

A rudimentary example of this is when someone goes away from watching a movie, putting the dvd player on hold or pause, let me explain -.

It should be noted this example does not mean the spiritual pastimes of Goloka can ever be been put on hold or pause for the benefit of the marginal living entity, such a ridicules proposal is not what I am trying to communicate here. On the other hand, from the perspective of the marginal living entity within the material world, their relationship with Krishna HAS been presently put on hold or ‘pause’ while they ‘consciously’ roam around the temporary material creation.

This is only an analogy describing that the jiva soul’s relationship with Krishna CAN AND IS put on hold due to them falling out of sync with their nitya-siddha body in Goloka and ‘sub-consciously’ taking shelter within divided time within the maha-tattva. In this way the marginal living entity forgets the eternal devotional realm of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s pastimes going on in Goloka. Such pastimes are perpetually established and founded within the never-ending ‘present’, which is the reality of Goloka and Vaikuntha.

In this way our eternal svarupa body is fully established in Goloka and has always has been there.

I think the final say in all of this is humbly and very clearly explained as followed by Jahnava Nitai Das -

“In absolute reality there is no such thing as three features of time. The problem with this discussion is that we are trying to filter God through the limits of three aspects of time. If there was no past and if there is no future, then the question ceases to exist. In the Bhagavatam's description of creation, the time factor only influences material existence from the point of the Mahat-tattva (i.e. after the agitation of the pradhana). Vishnu, who exists beyond material influence, has no limiting connection to this three fold illusory time. And since time only manifests at the point of material creation, when we return there we would never have been gone”.

http://www.dandavats.com/?p=4275

Guruvani · November 5, 2007

The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many who wrongly believe that the jiva-soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will, therefore their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is obviously impersonal and therefore dangerous.

[url="http://www.dandavats.com/?p=4275"]

That is a false accusation.

Why?

Because the jiva is conscious before he falls out of the brahmajyoti and has free will too.

We have never said otherwise, but you choose to lie and misrepresent our position because you have to resort to such lies and deception to keep defending you bogus sleepervadi theory.

If telling lies about what we believe is the best you can do then why don't you just give up your pathetic fight against the Gaudiya siddhanta and go away?

Kulapavana · November 5, 2007

"Drutakarma again further explains: "Consider this text (4.28.59):

tasmims tvam ramaya sprsto

ramamano 'sruta-smrtih

tat-sangad idrsim prapto

dasam papiyasam prabho

"My dear friend, when you enter such a body along with the woman of material desires, you become overly absorbed in sense enjoyment. Because of this you have forgotten your spiritual life. Due to your material conceptions, you are placed in various material conditions.

Obviously this entire segment of instructions relates to the existing life in the material world. How on earth can you infer from this verse any relation to life prior to placement in the material world?

one more time:

"My dear friend, when you enter such a body along with the woman of material desires, you become overly absorbed in sense enjoyment. Because of this you have forgotten your spiritual life."

thus the forgetfulness is caused by an entry into the particular body, not the other way around.

Guruvani · November 5, 2007

the fall-from-goloka sleepervadis are disgracing Srila Prabhupada in front of the whole Gaudiya sampradaya.

Such offenses against Srila Prabhupada should stop and the Gaudiya siddhanta should cease being distorted and twisted by people with a political agenda to defend a bogus theory that has no foundation in the Gauidya siddhanta.

It's about their egos and their pride.

They have no loyalty to the Gaudiya siddhanta.

They are only loyal to their false pride and false egos.

Guruvani · November 5, 2007

"Drutakarma again further explains: "Consider this text (4.28.59):

tasmims tvam ramaya sprsto

ramamano 'sruta-smrtih

tat-sangad idrsim prapto

dasam papiyasam prabho

"My dear friend, when you enter such a body along with the woman of material desires, you become overly absorbed in sense enjoyment. Because of this you have forgotten your spiritual life. Due to your material conceptions, you are placed in various material conditions.

What Drutakarma and his cronies don't tell you is that at the end of that chapter Srila Prabhupada explains that the story this verse comes from is a fable told by Narada Muni.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.28.65, purport

Factually the path of bhakti-yoga is the path of hearing directly about the pastimes of the Supreme Personality of Godhead (śravaṇaḿ kīrtanaḿ viṣṇoḥ [SB 7.5.23]), but those who are not interested in hearing directly about the activities of the Lord, or who cannot understand them, can very effectively hear such stories and fables as this one narrated by Nārada Muni.

That story is a fable for people who cannot understand directly about the activities of the Lord.

It is a fairytale for those who cannot understand otherwise.

Obviously, the sleepervadis can only understand and accept fables.

They cannot deal with the actual shastric conclusions.

Svarupa · November 5, 2007

AVOIDING REPEATING THE GAUDIYA MATHA MISTAKE

by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

" I do not wish to discuss about activities of my Godbrothers but it is a fact they have no life for preaching work. All are satisfied with a place for residence in the name of a temple, they engage disciples to get foodstuff by transcendental devices and eat and sleep. (Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Rupanuga 4/28/74)

"They have no idea or brain how to broacast the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. My Guru Maharaja used to lament many times for this reason and he thought if one man at least had understood the principle of preaching then his mission would achieve success.

"In the latter days of my Guru Maharaja he was very disgusted. Actually, he left this world earlier, otherwise he would have continued to live for more years. Still he requested his disciples to form a strong Governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

"He never recommended anyone to be acarya of the Gaudiya Math. But Sridhara Maharaja is responsible for disobeying this order of Guru Maharaja, and he and others who are already dead unnecessarily thought that there must be one acarya. If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya.

"His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected.

"So Sridhara Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one acarya and later it proved a failure. The result is now everyone is claiming to be acarya even though they may be kanistha adhikari with no ability to preach. In some of the camps the acarya is being changed three times a year.

"Therefore we may not commit the same mistake in our ISKCON camp. Actually amongst my Godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya. So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them. This attempt was made previously by them, especially Madhava Maharaja and Tirtha Maharaja and Bon Maharaja but somehow or other I saved the situation. This is going on. We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them.

“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many who wrongly believe that the jiva-soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will, therefore their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is obviously impersonal and therefore dangerous. Such sects do not understand the correct PERSONAL teaching of the Vedas given to us by Jagat Guru His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

http://www.dandavats.com/?p=4275

This is certainly very clear isn't it

-We all originated from Goloka

Beggar · November 5, 2007

So here we see the real "fairytale" which is that Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers were somehow impersonalists. That they either translated or engaged others to translate the Bengali writings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur with an impersonalist slant. Most of us can understand that Srila Prabhupada's ban on his godbrothers was for time, place and circumstance. But even if you accept that ban as being ongoing; where did Srila Prabhupada ever write or say that it was because his godbrothers were impersonalists? He never, ever wrote or spoke such a statement, yet this was an ignorant myth floating around ISKCON that I first heard in 1971. I immediately rejected such a concept for I percieved it to be absurd and illogical and no one could provide any evidence of Prabhupada ever writing or saying such a thing.

Also, it is no longer the late sixties or early seventies and many of the Bengali writings of both Thakurs and the previous acaryas have been translated by ISKCON devotees. None of these ISKCON translators has ever alledged that they have found anything impersonal in the tranlations either of the godbrothers or their disciples. Consequently the Drutakarma Fall-Vadi Camp and the Sleeper-Vadi camp are serious offenders to both Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers, his guru, his param gurus and the entire guru varga for they are making an organized attempt to counter their siddhanta or devotional conclusions. Furthermore their aparadha extends to all the eternal, internal associates of Sri Bhagavan in both His original form and His expansions.

Beggar · November 5, 2007

This is certainly very clear isn't it

-We all originated from Goloka

P.S. Show us one quote from Srila Prabhupada's books where he actually uses the words, "we actually originated from Goloka". You cannot and you won't even find anything close.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.30.5, purport,

The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

If Srila Prabhupada wanted us to accept as you say, "we actually originated from Goloka" then he never would have written the above statement in his Bhaktivedanta Purport. We accept him as most intellegent and realized, not some kind of fool!

Svarupa · November 5, 2007

Your argument is with the words from His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and not with those who understand we all originate from Goloka. Clearly without any doubt whatsoever Srila Prabhupada tells us we ALL come down from Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada -"The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully"(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com st1:place> in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there...So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand".In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in <st1:City><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:City>, on <st1:date Year="1971" Day="30" Month="7">July 30, 1971</st1:date>

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - "You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned" Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 196

Srila Prabhupada - “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada – “We have got an eternal relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - “When the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” <st1:City><st1:place>Bombay</st1:place></st1:City>, <st1:date Year="1972" Day="27" Month="12">December 27, 1972</st1:date>

Srila Prabhupada - “Our separation from <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things". Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in His Lila or sport" Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - "Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only"

Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by <st1:City><st1:place>Milton</st1:place></st1:City> in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

Srila Prabhupada clearly states “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what your relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka.

Shakti-Fan · November 5, 2007

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka.

To interpret:Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

to mean, "This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE." is a total concoction.

Svarupa · November 5, 2007

Srila Prabhupada – ‘This ordinary living being is of two kinds — nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.’ SB 5.11.12 Purport

Then Srila Prabhupada explains.

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, (NITYA-BADDHA) but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

Your arguments are with the words from His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and not with those who understand we all originate from Goloka. Clearly without any doubt whatsoever Srila Prabhupada tells us we ALL come down from Goloka.

Beggar · November 5, 2007

Your arguments are with the words from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Srila Krsna das Kaviraja.

You cannot harmonize:

nitya-siddha krishna-prema 'sadhya' kabhu naya

sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya

and

jivera 'svarupa' haya – krsnera 'nitya-dasa'

krsnera 'tatastha'sakti' 'bhedabheda-prakasa'

You are dreaming that you are dreaming that you have a "swarupa body" in Goloka. The question is how can the conditioned jivas be nitya siddha and tatastha'sakti simultaneously? There must always be a living authority otherwise arguments like this will go on forever, with no judge. People like Drutakarma and the Sleeper-Vadi guru whoever he is are the living authorities for their followers on at least this subject. Their denials that they have taken the position of some sort of guru is like one who writes a book explaining how no books are needed.

Kulapavana · November 5, 2007

Clearly without any doubt whatsoever Srila Prabhupada tells us we ALL come down from Goloka.

thus Vaikunthalokas and even liberation in Brahman effulgence may be more desirable forms of salvation, because only from Goloka one can fall down into jagat :eek3: - based on the above unequivocal statement, nobody is falling down from Brahman or Vaikuntha planets, only Krsna's associates from Goloka are fallible... :smash:

you guys are too much...

and of course, nobody is sadhana-siddha, we are all nitya siddhas...

just like the Mayavadis say: "you are God. you just dont know you are God. but as soon as you realize you are God, you become God"... the same fairy-tale, the same crooked logic... :deal:

mahak · November 5, 2007

haribol, folks, friends. Following here without too much comment. Just to point out something I remember from when Srila Prabhupada visited Laguna in 71 or 72. One guest asked if one would remember all of his births when in goloka, Srila Prabhupada first quipped, "why would they want to" (he was sooo awesomely funny), but then he went on to explain that the time experianced in the spiritual realm was quite different than our conception of time here in this realm. In fact, our billions of births from time immemorial did not even account for a fraction of a second in the Goloka Vrndavana time zone.

So, when we speak of eternally liberated (nitya siddha), we speak of a goloka resident. We do not even consider if such a person spent time in this realm, any more than a mature middle aged person would consider a fraction of a second while asleep as an infant.

When we discuss terms of opposition such as nitya siddha and nitya baddha, we are speaking of two entirely different time zones. The nitya siddha is on Vrndavan Time, while the nitya baddha is eternally conditioned to a world whose whole time span is the proverbial comparison between the ocean and the puddle in the hoofprint of a cow.

There is also the full truth that a devotee is a touchstone, and can turn a nitya baddha into a nitya siddha. There are no designations or discriminations in the spiritual realm according to ones actually non-existance in the past.

No, this is not mayavada, but it is quite inconceivable. This is why these discussions about falling from a place where no one falls are so difficult. Srila Prabhupada explains on the cover of this record album that "somehow or other, we have forgotten". This means that we knew, otherwise, what have we forgotten?

Hare Krsna, touchstone. mahaksadasa

Guruvani · November 5, 2007

To interpret:Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)
to mean, "This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE." is a total concoction.

This is the whole basis of the sleepervadi theory.

They know that Srila Prabhupada has written in his books that no one falls from Vaikuntha.

So, to get around that hard fact they have INVENTED the sleepervadi theory that actually the fallen souls did not really fall that they still have spiritual bodies in Goloka and only appear to be fallen when in fact they are nitya-siddhas having a bad dream in their spiritual infallible body in Goloka.

This is of course a total concoction and has no basis in shastra or even anything ever told by Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada cut the fairytale short because there were limits to how far he could run with the fable fairytale approach to preaching.

These sleepervadis like Drutakarma having taking the fable to an extreme measure and adulterated it with massive speculation and concoction.

Without the sleepervadi theory of having a spiritual body in Goloka they cannot get around the fact that Srila Prabhupada wrote in his books that no one falls from Vaikuntha.

To get around that they have invented the sleepervadi theory and butchered the Gaudiya siddhanta by taking a harmless fable and turning it into a nightmare where unlimited nitya-siddha pure devotees of Krishna are falling down at a rate that is unfathomable.

It is such an abuse of Srila Prabhupada that it simply defies the imagination.

If this sleepervadi theory is allowed to continue in ISKCON then Srila Prabhupada will be labeled as a renegade Gaudiya who butchered the siddhanta and preached imaginative siddhanta to clueless western people all over the world.

They claim allegiance and loytalty to Srila Prabhupada but really they are enemies of Srila Prabhupada who are blemishing his reputation to the point that future generations of devotees will look at him as an eccentric Gaudiya who preached false siddhanta all over the world and confused a whole generation of devotees.

CCC · November 5, 2007

"Haribol!

The discussions here on Achintya seem to have boosted

up a bit. Please forgive me for not participating in

discussions recently, as I have been prey to various

personl problems. It seems that this issue of the

fall/no-fall of the jiva has come up yet again. I

would like to describe my own history with this

matter. Please correct me if I may be wrong on any

point.

I first heard of this contentious issue early on as

1998, but rejected it as it was way to early for my

"newly Krishna Conscious" mind to take in, as well as

certain factors regarding it's consuming technicality.

I am also in possesion of the GBC-endorsed book, "Our

Original Position," but I have never made an effort to

read it due to it's high technicality. It seems

somehow strange (perhaps Krishna's plan?) that I have

been slowly acquainting myself with this issue quite

reently, having picked up the OOP book several times,

and now it seems that we are having a full-fledged

dicussion on this matter!

What little I did read about it gave me the impression

that there were two major factions:

1- Those that said that the jiva soul fell down from

the spiritual world and from a personal relationship

with Krishna due to it's own desires (free will) to

similarly enjoy just as Krishna does.

2- The other party states that souls do not fall from

the spiritual world at all and that our apparent state

is just like that of a dream.

There also seems to be various forms of confusion as

to WHERE EXACTLY the jivas originated, the Spiritual

World or the Brahman effulgence.

There is one urgent point I wish to make that worries

me. Recently we have been asked to view websites that

are of a Gaudiya Math outlook. Though I personally

have no problem with Gaudiya Math philosophy, I

believe that my siksa guru is none other than His

Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the

master at whose feet all other masters sit. I look at

the philosophy of any other non-ISKCON authority

through Srila Prabhupada's books. I believe that this

view is in complete agreement with ISKCON/GBC laws and

thus I am perfectly within my rights.

It is also significant to note that Srila Prabhupada

preached the fall theory, while other non-ISKCON

authorities such as Gaudiya Matha preach the no-fall

theory.

That said, let me try to provide some quotes that may

clarify Srila Prabhupada's views on the matter. Even

though Srila Prabhupada extensively preached he fall

theory, certain places in his books show that he also

preached the no-fall theory. I hope to show that the

former is the main siddhanta that Prabhupada taught

and which ISKCON devotees should follow.

The Absolute Truth is personal. The jivas are part of

that Absolute Truth, and they are also all personal.

They have fallen from a personal relationship with the

Supreme Lord in the spiritual world. It's simple

logic.

"These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming

from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds, they are

taking various grades of bodies". - Letter, July 9,

1970.

Prabhupada could have easily said that the souls were

coming from the brahmajyoti, but he specifically says

that they are coming from the spiritual planets, which

are called the Vaikuntha planets.

"... if he is properly guided, then he is very easily

sent back to home, back to Godhead wherefrom

originally he fell down." - Letter, January 20, 1971

If you go back to some place, then you were once

there. This is basic logic. Also, the adverb

originally is used in this statement.

"... we have also come down from Vaikuntha some

millions and millions of years ago. Anadi

karama-phale. Anadi means before the creation... The

real desire is how to go to home, back to Godhead." -

Lecture on Bhagavad-gita, London, August 6, 1973

The Sanskrit word anadi is explained concisely in

these sentences. Misapplication of this word is one of

the sources of controversy stirred up by the no-fall

philosophers. That the living entity came from the

spiritual planets of Vaikuntha and is meant to go back

there is once again clearly established.

"... we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment...

so even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that 'Why shall

I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?' I immediately

fall down." - Lecture in Honolulu, July 4, 1974

Now the doubt may be raised that Vaikuntha is bathed

in the transcendental light of the brahmajyoti, so

maybe the Vaikuntha being spoken of here is in

reference (obliquely) to that light, rather than the

planets and personal relationships there. Notice, in

this quote, that the motivations for coming to the

material are explained rather graphically. The

mystique that Vaikuntha may be referring to the light

is smashed in the next reference.

"He is fallen already from Vaikuntha planet. He is

fallen in this material world, and he is again trying

to make progress." - Bhagavatam lecture in Los

Angeles, June 15, 1972.

The purport is self-evident.

"As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are

covered by Maya. Formerly, we were with Krsna in His

lila or sport, but this covering of Maya may be of

very, very, very, very long duration. . .

"... Unless one develops full devotional service to

Krsna, he goes up only to brahma-sayujya but falls

down. After millions and millions of years of keeping

oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes

to Krsna consciousness, this period becomes

insignificant, just like dreaming. Because he falls

down from brahma-sayujya, he thinks that may be his

origin, but he does not remember that before that even

he was with Krsna". - Australian conversation

transcribed in BBT Report Nectar of the Month,

January, 1982.

If you're in the brahmajyoti, you're not with Krsna in

His sporting pastimes. The brahmajyoti may be a

secondary origination for many or even most of us, on

the presumption (verified in this statement) that many

of us have attained that stage of liberation at some

time during our conditional sojourn. So, on that

basis, we may be inclined to that as our origination.

However, our ultimate origination "before that even"

was in a personal relationship with the Supreme

Personality of Godhead. This Australian conversation

really covers the essence of the whole controversy and

settles it conclusively--for those who actually have

faith in the teachings of Srila Prabhupada, i.e., the

philosophy of the Absolute Truth.

DISCIPLE: If Krsna did not want us to come, why are we

here?

PRABHUPADA: Yes. You forced Krsna to allow you to

come... This is the position. You have to take

sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God

sanctions. And you come and enjoy. - Bhagavad-gita

lecture in Melbourne, June 27, 1974

Actually, the living entity is never the controller at

any time during his eternal existence. In reality, he

controls nothing. Even in his rebellion against the

Lord, the Lord has to create a place where the jiva

can come and completely forget his actual identity. If

God did not allow you to forget Him, you would be

unable to forget him on your own. The living entity

requires the Lord's sanction even in the matter of

leaving the spiritual world and the jiva's personal

relationship with the Personality of Godhead.

"Existence in the impersonal brahma is also within the

category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in

the brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen

condition. So there is no question of falling down

from a fallen condition". - Letter, June 13, 1970.

The purport is self-evident.

"When the pure soul wants to give up the Lord's

service to enjoy the material world, Krsna certainly

gives him a chance to enter the material world". -

Introduction to Srimad Bhagavatam (5.14)

There's no service in the brahmajyoti. That's one of

the reasons the brahmajyoti exists: so part and

parcels who develop maximum aversion to devotional

service have somewhere to go and exist.

"He should be restored to his pure identity, in which

he engages his senses in the service of the proprietor

of the senses." - Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam,

4.24.61.

"Therefore, the whole process of God consciousness is

meant to rectify the conditional activities of the

senses and to re-engage them in the direct service of

the Lord". -Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam, 2.9.39.

Re-engage? How can you be re-engaged in "direct

service" of the Lord if you've originally come from

the brahmajyoti or some other place that does not

facilitate direct, personal engagement in devotional

service?

Acyutananda: So what made the soul take birth in the

first place?

Prabhupada: In the first place?

Acyutananda: What is the first birth? What is the

cause of the first birth.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is stated in the Prema-vivarta:

krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare/nikata-stha

maya tare japatiya dhare.

As soon as... We are eternal servant of Krsna. As soon

as we want to become master, that is the beginning of

our first birth in the material world. We have got

independence. Because, Krsna says, mamaivamso jiva

bhutah—we are part and parcel of Krsna—so Krsna has

got full independence, but we are minute; therefore we

have got minute independence. Our business is to serve

Krsna, but as soon as we give up this idea, we want to

become master. That is the beginning of our material

birth. (Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.2--Hyderabad,

April 11, 1975)

Perhaps we may like to know of the statements of some

of our previous Acharyas on this matter:

However, because of contact with matter, the

imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original

spiritual form in Vaikuntha... material rasas are

perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual

rasas. - Srila Bhaktivinoda Takura, Prema-pradipa, p.

83

It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports.

They become attached to matter, having deviated from

their own essential nature as the result of their

desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul... gains

true wisdom of the transcendental region of God...he

begins to get back his pure essential nature... -

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada, Sri

Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323.

Then, being bewildered and covered, he is fallen from

advaya-vaikuntha. - Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati

Prabhupada, Vivritti commentary on Srimad Bhagavatam,

11.2.48

Of course this is an increasingly deep topic that

requires much further explanation from devotees much

more advanced than I, I hope that I have provided some

thoughts to stimulate the discussion.

Of course, the main problem with the no-fall theory is

that it is covert Mayavada due to it's contention that

we originated in the brahmajyoti. This theory then

logically concludes that the jivatma comes from an

impersonal origin, when that is clearly against what

Srila Prabhupada said: "Because he falls down from

brahma-sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but

he does not remember that before that even he was with

Krsna".

In service of Gaura-Nitai,

Sanjay"

mahak · November 5, 2007

I was going to start another thread, but then said to myself, "Oh, not another". So I ask this here.

I wouldnt think that one would fall from Vaikuntha. But then, Akrura, a resident nitya siddha from Mathuradhama, who was struck with visions unavailabl;e to those not in vaikuntha, engaged himself later in a conspiracy against Krsna. Srila Prabhupada even refers to him as kanistha adhikari. How can that be, his ability to view what he did as he was taking Krsna from Gokula to Mathura, and later conspire with satrajit in stealing the syamanthaka Jewel. Is this not a fall?

Another thing is what I said earlier. Srila Prabhupada, when describing the mahamantra in his first recording in America, states, as he does elsewhere and often, is that "somehow or other, we have forgotten", and that this chanting of the mahamantra revives our memory.

So, what have we forgotten. Isnt forgetfulness the greatest maya, the most severe falldown? Since no one can deny that Srila Prabhupada says we have forgotten our true identity as servants of the supreme lord, and no one can deny that the greatest demons fought by the Supreme Lord were actually vaikuntha residents who forgot Krsna when the Kumaras appeared before them, indicating they were kanistha adhikaris and unable to distinguish devotee from ordinary people, thereby denying access to the Kumaras.

If we arer just speaking Goloka, then maybe I see no evidence of anyone bound up and thrown into the material world, but Vaikuntah is another story alltogether.

And what have we forgotten? Forget means that we once knew, and if we once knew, werent we liberated fully by such knowledge?

Freee will follows us to the spiritual realm. We must haver free will, otherwise, there is no love, only rape.

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

Fall theory is worse than Mayavada says Narasingha Maharaja

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