The Bible Is Veda

[suchandra]

Not that Vaishnavas should read the Bible, but as Prabhupada says below, it is part of the Vedas. However, when it comes to efficient preaching policy, throughout the Middle Ages till today the Christians were far more dedicated and surrendered to preaching activities and ready to travel far distances to spread the teachings of Lord Jesus Christ. This very preaching spirit is completely unseen and absent in traditional Vaishnavism.

 

Prabhupada: [...]But we should always accept the injunction of the scripture as truth. Just like there is a proverb, “Bible truth,” “Biblical truth.” Nobody can deny Bible. This should be the attitude. Bible is also part of Vedas. Therefore Vedic injunction should be accepted as it is, without any interpretation. Just like Bhagavad-gīta is Veda. Why Veda? The Supreme Personality of Godhead personally speaking; therefore it is Veda. There is no mistake. One should accept—no interpretation—as it is. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gīta As It Is. Yes. Go on.[...] Los Angeles, December 1, 1968

full lecture: http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/681201IN.LA.htm?i=1968

 

From atmapress.com, Workshop on Spirituality - Part 1

 

:http://www.atmapress.com/I%20Am/Chapter_2_p4.htm

 

"As far as Judaism is concerned, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami gave an interview to Jewish devotees to answer questions about the Jewish faith. I was there in that interview and what I remember A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami saying was: "The Jewish religion and the Christian religion are essentially the same. In India there are very few Jews, so we have not shown the Jewish star on the symbol of the different faiths, but you may add it. Both Jews and Christians have the same basic Bible. The Christian Bible was added to the Jewish Bible. The Bible is Veda. Veda means the voice of God. It has come from God. But there have been many commentaries added to it by priests and scribes. Jesus taught the same Veda. So, there is really no difference between the basic Jewish and Christian teachings." And of course A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami is completely right. As I mentioned earlier, when Jesus was asked what was the most important commandment, he quoted the mantra given by Moses, the shemaa, which is sacred to Jews and repeated by them many times daily. And when asked about the second most important commandment, he also quoted Moses, that you should love your fellow man as you love yourself - which is the Golden Rule. Then where is the difference? Only in some of the details of the rituals added on later and in the basic acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah, the Saviour. But the heart of the teaching, our relationship to God and our fellow man, is the same."

[gHari]

From Sri Krsna Samhita by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur:<blockquote>"This is a scientific consideration of truths regarding religious principles. Those who consider their own religious principles as real dharma and others' religious principles as irreligion or subreligion are unable to ascertain the truth due to being influenced by prejudice.

Actually religious principles followed by people in general are different only due to the different qualifications of the practitioners, but the constitutional religious principles of all living entities are one.

It is not proper for swanlike persons to reject the religious principles that people in general follow according to their situation". </blockquote>

[HerServant]

here is an interesting article I found on the net:

 

The Bible as Veda

Genesis/Janus/Ganesha/Gnosis

by Bhakti Ananda Goswami

 

Hare Krishna ! Sri Sri guru and Gauranga Ki Jaya !

 

I have studied the Old Testament in both the Hebrew and the Greek (Septuagint and Apocrypha), and can tell you that these are both Krishna Balarama (Vishnu) centric Vaishnava texts, and Shaivite-related texts. The 'Jewish' scripture in either form (Hebrew or Greek) is absolutely a Vaishnava record, with additional strong Shaivite associations. In fact the very word for God's revealed knowledge in the Hebrew is Yeda / Yada and in the Greek is Oida. This is Veda ! Just as the supreme Deity's names Yahu / Yeshi and Yishma in Hebrew are Vasu and Vishnu in Sanskrit, Yeda is Veda. Because the Hebrew characters for yod and vau (y and v) are nearly identical, and there was a confounding of the Phoenician and archaic Greek letters for y and v, ancient Hebrew and Greek y and v words were often confounded. The soft 'y' and 'v' could also yield to a 'u' (or double-u - ‘w’) sound, or initial vowel, thus becoming Oida or Eido etc. The Jewish ('Old') Testament Yeda / Oida tradition is continued in the Christian New Testament where Eli-Yahu / Hari-Vasu God's knowledge is again called Oida / Eido ( the English word 'idea' is from Oida / Eido) hundreds of times. Together the yd / Oida word is used for knowledge, especially what is directly perceived or seen, over 900 times in the Hebrew and Greek Bible. This word is also specifically used in reference to God's self-revelation. In fact, like Sri Krishna’s name Vedayah, the Jewish Deity is also called Yedayah ! So when Sri Krishna says "by all the Vedas I am to be known" and that he is the knower of the Vedas, it is clear that this includes the Biblical tradition of Yeda / Oida as well.

 

This ‘vd’ root for directly revealed or perceived knowledge has come through into modern English some very interesting ways. For example: video (fun to compare with vidya), vision, witness (one who has seen), vista, visual, visible, id-ol ( from id-latria or adoration of what is seen, a misreading of id-latria where id means 'self' , thus the properly condemned 'idolatry' / id-latria is idio-try or 'self adoration'), idea, ideal (what is seen), wise, wizard, wisdom, wit, witty, unwitting, and guise. There are scores of related words in other languages.

 

Knowledge, Genesis, and Ganesha

 

The other Sanskrit-related Greek Biblical word for knowledge is related to the root of the word 'knowledge' itself. ‘Know’ is related the Greek ‘Gnosis’ and the Sanskrit ‘jnan’. The ancient root jn, gn, kn had several meanings. Prominently, two meanings were associated with knowing and beginning.

 

The Greeks called the first book of the Bible 'Genesis', because it told the story of the beginning. This is the superficial common understanding. 35 years ago I began a word-by-word analysis of the Bible in both Hebrew and Greek. In the Greek I began with the title of the first book 'Genesis' and soon discovered that there was another reason that this title is highly significant.

 

Who is associated with holy scholarship and the recording of the Vedas? It is Ganesha. The worship of Janus / Ganesha / Gana-pati as the 'patron' of all beginnings and endeavors was very prominent among the ancient Mediterranean Vaishnavas. At Rome the sanctuary of Janus was associated with Mars, just as Ganesha is associated with Maru gan among the Shaivites. The rites of Ian / Janus were similar to those of Ganesha; he was even especially offered sweets like Ganesha ! Janus was the protector of all beginnings, and doors, gates, thresholds, etc. The word jamn / jamb, as in door jamb, is therefore not from gamb, but is rather from doorways being sacred to Janus / Ganesha.

 

Janus has three faces. One sees all the past, one sees all the future, and one looks right at you in the present. Thus he is tri-lok-atma, the Lord of past, present and future. A loka is a locus or location, so he is the Lord, the soul / atma or self of the tri lokas or three worlds or realms. Ganesha's three faces see past present and future. There are various stories throughout the ancient world explaining Ganesha's change of heads, different heads, or multiple heads. Like Brahma, Ganesha is associated with the Vedas, all Divine revelation and jnan, so like Brahma, he is revealed with many heads in different traditions. His worship on thresholds like doorways extends to the astrological and seasonal changes / thresholds of time, and to life-changing personal and collective events. In ancient Rome, during times of war, the door of the temple of Janus was kept perpetually open, to invite the new hope, a new beginning of peace back into the city.

 

The month of January is named for Janus, who is invoked to bless the beginning of every year with peace and prosperity. The festival of Janus has now become a global event with the popular pan-cultural 'new years' celebrations world-wide derived from the Roman calendar. Even the Chinese, who use an entirely different calendar, celebrated the arrival of January 1st in a huge way this year. This reveals the deep attraction of the festival for all kinds and classes of humanity.

 

Ganesha and Gnosis / Knowledge

 

Gana / jana in Sanskrit has the same meaning as in the Greek word ‘gene’. There is a pun in the European root ‘gen’, between the meaning found in ‘generation’ and ‘Genesis’, and that meaning of ‘gen’ related to Gnosis, or knowledge. So the connection of Ganapati or Ganesha to Gnosis or jnana-yoga, the path of knowledge and books, is clear. To this day Ganesha is invoked at the beginning of one's lifetime or daily studies. Ganesha is Gnosis. When they open the scriptures, students and masters alike pray to Ganesha before beginning their labors. As Gan-eshvara, he is gen, jnan, Gnosis, know-ing personified, the very being and spirit of knowledge or jnan.

 

These Holy Name puns are not to be overlooked or taken lightly, for there is great, profound revelatory depth in the Names of God. Each Holy Name is a priceless self-revelation of the Divine ! Language properly understood and respectfully approached is a treasure-trove of the Holy Names, and revelatory truth. We must recover the sacrality of language, and restore sacred meaning where it has been lost. This is consciousness-raising, to re-consecrate our speech (and thus our thought) to God !

 

Ganesha / Gnosis is the patron of scribes and scholars ! Gana-eshvara, Ganesha is associated with generation and the beginning of all things and peoples. Thus it is no accident or coincidence that the Greeks used the word 'Genesis' for the first book of the Bible. Again it is important to note Ganesha's universality. His icon is found on the altars of both Vishnu and Shiva. He is worshiped by the Shakti worshipers as the beloved son of Parvati, and in the Skanda-Murugan tradition he has a prominent place. Later I hope that I will get the chance to describe his worship in the Mediterranean and Levant.

 

Ganesha and Genesis

 

If someone wants to claim that there was no religious association in the Greek mind of a 'Deity' or spirit with 'Genesis', then they will be denying the most basic fact of Greek religion, namely that everything concrete or abstract had a Deity, spirit, or being associated with it. There was a masculine and feminine pair, a patron and patroness, or Theos and Thea, Deva and Devi associated with everything. Thus the Graces, Charities, Muses, love, time, war, health, river nyads, trees, cities, order, peace; absolutely everything in Greek religion was 'personified' or had its 'idea' or 'spirit' or daemon. So Genesis must also have had, like absolutely everything else, a spirit or patron being, or masculine and feminine pair of beings associated with it.

 

Gana-pati is the 'father' or generator patron of all beginnings. 'In the beginning' is the translation of the first words of the Bible (Jewish scriptures). In the Greek Septuagint version, these first words are "en arche.". If the name of the book is supposedly the words 'in the beginning', then why is it not "en arche" ? The root 'gin' in the words be-gin-ning and ori-gin gives a clue. ‘Gin’ in the northern European languages, like ‘gen’ in Greek, is originally associated with the spirit of generation and all beginnings, the Lord's form as Gana-pati or Gan-eshvara / Ganesha. At very ancient Rome he was called Janus.

 

If the Bible in Greek starts with 'en arche' then the book was titled 'Genesis' for another reason. Clearly it was a religious reason associated with the auspicious invocation of Ganesha before any reading, copying, remembrance, or recitation of the word of God.

 

In this way, the entire Greek or Hebrew Oida or Yeda can be commented on word-for-word from the 'Vedic' Vaishnava and Shaivite spiritual-theological and historical perspective. I have been trying to tell 'Hindus' about this for 30 years, but due to some leaders' extreme prejudice against Judaism and Christianity, my work has been suppressed. I have been in fact very badly treated by some 'Hindus' for even being involved with Judaism and Christianity.

 

If anyone is serious to get beyond Aryanist racism to learn the truth about our ancient past as one people of God, please put aside any prejudice against ancient Semitic tradition and read the Bible in the original languages of Greek and Hebrew.

 

Compare what you find with both Vaishnava and Shaivite Sanskrit and Dravidian Bhakti sources, and if you are honest, you will have to admit that there are profound connections on every level.

 

When will we overcome prejudice ?

 

Lord, please save us from our mundane, proud Id-Latria, our blind and blinding self-adoration !

 

Aspiring to serve all of the devotees of the lord,

 

Bhakti Ananda Goswami

 

reference:

http://www.saragrahi.org/Header%20Links/Articles%20By%20Author/Bhakti%20Anand%20Goswami/939%20The%20Bible%20as%20Veda.htm

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupada said not to add or subtract.

What we have to avoid is the adding or subtracting to his message.

Srila Prabhupada gave enough.

We don't need to expand into further addition or subtraction to what Srila Prabhupada taught.

 

Whatever is in the Gaudiya books I relish.

Whatever comes after that I can live without.

 

Krishnadas Kaviraja Goswami did not touch or comment on Jesus, the Bible or Christianity.

I can do without these modern excursions outside the message of the previous acharyas - the self-realized masters of the Gaudiya sampradaya.

[Hari Bhakta dasa]

Emperera Constantine decided what would and wouldn't be in the bible as we know it. Much of the bible was "kicked out" because he was afraid of the effect it would have on those practicing the Christian faith. In other words, it might not be in his (constantine's) favor. For example, in one of the forbidden books Jesus goes to the gates of hell and the devil releases those who have served their time thus killing off the idea of "eternal hell and damnation".

 

In another of the forbidden books one of Jesus' disciples ask Jesus "how can a loving God, our father, condemn us to eternal hell?" Jesus wispers in his ear, "He doesn't and that is the secret".

 

Sorry I do not remember the names of the forbidden books of the bible nor the personalities involved other than Jesus.

 

So can we really say that today's bible is "veda"? How much of what is left was changed?

[Guruvani]

The Vedas were complied by Vyasadeva.

Then there are Itihasa and Purana etc.

 

I don't consider the Bible as Veda.

I just think that Srila Prabhupada didn't want to start a war with the Christian western world and preached in a way as to try and prevent that war.

 

As western people taking to the Vedic knowledge we have a little more tendency to be critical than an acharya from India trying to avoid a religious war between the Christians and the Hare Krishnas.

 

I definitely do not consider the Bible as Veda.

I just think Srila Prabhupada was being diplomatic.

 

I don't take everything Srila Prabhupada says as literal.

I see other things at work in his words besides literal meanings.

[Smiley]

As someone who was raised studying the Bible, I do not see how you can harmonize its teachings with the Vedas.

For instance, Numbers 31 will incite horror in normally dispassionate men.

 

 

[Guruvani]

If we accept the Bible as Veda, then we can also accept , , and all sorts of other books and writings as Veda.

 

I think we should just draw the line at the works of Vyasadeva.

[sanatan]

Yes, SP was speaking very broadly to a western audience and wanting to appeal to Christians.

I don't think he intended to make an obviously-contradictory statement by claiming both the Bible and the scriptures in the Vedic tradition are absolute literal truth.

He said the injunctions within both are truth. Webster’s defines “injunction” as an Order or Admonition.

As to which injunctions in the Bible, this leaves plenty of open territory for debate.

 

Regarding "Forbidden Books" of the Bible, there are so many sources out there claiming to know the truth on them, I don't know where to start to look.

[suchandra]

 

Guruvani prabhu says: Srila Prabhupada said not to add or subtract.

What we have to avoid is the adding or subtracting to his message.

Srila Prabhupada gave enough.

We don't need to expand into further addition or subtraction to what Srila Prabhupada taught.

 

Whatever is in the Gaudiya books I relish.

Whatever comes after that I can live without.

 

Krishnadas Kaviraja Goswami did not touch or comment on Jesus, the Bible or Christianity.

I can do without these modern excursions outside the message of the previous acharyas - the self-realized masters of the Gaudiya sampradaya.

Today, 2007 we can say with certitude that the startup of Vaishnavism to become established as a reputable global religious movement failed. Not that there should have been many communities - a few in every country but with exemplary spiritual standard would have been enough. So far even the splitting into different competing camps didn't help to get the idea of Vaishnavism globally to be accepted. Today we can say, the attempt to establish a world movement failed. Failed in such a way that even a recovery, comeback is gambled away. The question is asked frequently why is a Vaishnava society so much prone to corruption?

Could it be that they can't even figure the ABCs how to set up an incorporated association?

Does present humanity have enough ability to reason in order to grasp the meaning of vedic wisdom? Or can we just not figure that elementary school students are not ready for Algebra?

But still, it is encouraging to see that Vaishnavas like Guruvani prabhu know what is genuine spirituality.

 

 

Looks like the leader of the GBC Executive Committee, HH Bhakti Vaibhava Swami, has similiar questions.

[HerServant]

 

As someone who was raised studying the Bible, I do not see how you can harmonize its teachings with the Vedas. Please reference skepticsannotatedbible dot com

Also, Numbers 31 will incite horror in normally dispassionate men.

 

 

Blessed be the Lord Narasimha, destroyer of demons and God haters.

 

"HARE KRISHNA!

 

SRI SRI GURU AND GAURANGA KI JAYA!

 

ON THE LEFT IS ONE OF THE SCORES OF JEWISH-RELATED AND PROTO-CATHOLIC ICONS THAT I COMPARED WITH VAISHNAVA AND PURE LAND BUDDHIST ICONS IN MY INTERDISCIPLINARY MASTER'S DEGREE PROJECT.

 

ON THE RIGHT IS A NARA HARI RUPA FROM SILPA SHASTRA FOR COMPARISON. THEIR JEWISH AND VAISHNAVA NAMES ARYEH AND HARYEH ARE EVEN RELATED. THEY ARE BOTH ASSOCIATED WITH THE WRATHFUL FORM OF THE LORD ELI / HARI AS TIME. ONE IS THE “LION OF JUDAH” AND THE OTHER IS THE LION OF THE YADUS, THE WRATHFUL FORM OF HARI / ELI AS YHVH TZABAOTH IN EXODUS! IN EXODUS (IN THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE AND JEWISH SCRIPTURES), THE WRATHFUL FORM OF ELI (HARI) AS YAHU TZABAOTH, THE LION OF JUDAH, INTERVENES BETWEEN THE FORCES OF THE PHARAOH AND THE MIXED MULTITUDE OF DEVOTEES LEAVING EGYPT. LIKE SRI KRISHNA'S WRATHFUL FORM IN THE GITA, HE IS REMEMBERED IN THE WESTERN TRADITIONS AS THE LORD OF TIME, DEVOURING THE WORLDS! ONE OF NARA HARI'S NAMES IS KALAH! IN THE GITA, SRI KRISHNA SAYS “KALO SMI.” “TIME I AM, DESTROYER OF THE WORLDS.” THE LION HEADED FORM OF ELI / HARI AS TIME (SEARCH ART HISTORY REFERENCES FOR "LEONTOCEPHALOS TIME," CHRONUS, SATURNUS, ZERVAN, APADAMEK, ETC.) WAS WORSHIPED THROUGHOUT THE ANCIENT WORLD. I HAVE SEEN SCORES OF NARAHARI MURTIS FROM THE MEDITERRANEAN AND OTHER NON-INDIAN AREAS, IN MUSEUM AND OTHER ANTIQUITY COLLECTIONS. DO NOT CONFUSE THE LATE ASTROLOGICAL ASSOCIATION OF SATURN THE PLANET, WITH THE EARLIER WORSHIP OF JUPITER SATURNUS AS TIME. IN WESTERN MYTHOLOGY, ALL THAT IS LEFT OF THE GITA'S THEOPHANY OF KRISHNA KALAH (TIME) DEVOURING THE COSMOS IS THE LATE MYTH OF SATURN / CHRONUS (TIME) DEVOURING HIS CHILDREN." -

 

The above excerpt is taken from B.A. Goswamipost at:

 

http://www.saragrahi.org/Header%20Links/Articles%20By%20Author/Bhakti%20Anand%20Goswami/936%20Haryeh%20as%20Aryeh%20Yahu%20Tzabaoth,%20The%20Lion%20of%20Judah.htm

[theist]

 

"Looks like the leader of the GBC Executive Committee, HH Bhakti Vaibhava Swami, has similiar questions."

 

Either that or he is on the look out for Narayan Maharajajis trying to sneak in. He has heard they are in the area.

[mahak]

funny, i remember reading that the author, vyasadeva, was not all that thrilled about his work on the veda. Then narada appeared to him, saying something like "all the books describing the glories of the supreme Lord, even though imperfectly composed, will be appreciated by thoroughly honest men". That Srila Prabhupada showed appreciation for other scriptures is not a sign that he is pandering to special interests and patronizing the masses to avoid holy war, it is a sign that he is HONEST, and fully following Srila Vyasadeva, who took up Naradas advice and composed Bhagavatam, which is not the actual veda that Vyasadeva was not all that thrilled about.

 

correct me if Im wrong.

 

mahaksadasa

[Guruvani]

I doubt that Srila Prabhupada ever read the Bible to really know the kind of bizarre things you can find in the Bible.

Srila Prabhupada, unlike Bhaktivinoda, was a devotee from birth and never experimented or searched outside the Gaudiya faith.

 

If Srila Prabhupada actually had read the Bible to see the kind of junk that is in that book, I am not so sure he would have called it "Veda".

 

Srila Prabhupada's familiarity with the history and contents of the Bible was practically nil as far as I know.

 

If it was really Veda I don't think he would have advised against reading that Bible.

Srila Prabhupada did not want his devotees reading the Bible.

I guess that pretty much shows what he really thought about the Bible Veda.

 

Personally, the mountain of foreskins made by the Jews after coming out of the wilderness was a story that almost made me vomit.

[theist]

My own view on the Bible is that there is Veda in the Bible but it is not all Veda. There is a lot of Jewish history and customs and life is seen through the Jewish perspectrive entirely and not often enough from the transcendental perspective.

 

That said I do not see the Vedas as being all Veda either. Veda in the sense that I mean it is true transcendental knowledge. Take the Manu Samhita for example. There is some pretty off the wall cruelty prescribed for sudras in that work that I have no interest in seeing implemented.

 

Srila Prabhupada didn't want his disciples just willy nilly reading anything and everything from the "vedas" either. The individual is expected to apply reasoned discrimination in choosing where to place his focus.

 

Bhakti is said to be the cream. And wherever Bhakti is apparent a genuine Vaisnava will bow his head in respect even though he himself may have already passed the level that engages other's because he knows that if Bhakti is present in any degree that signals the descent of Lord Krsna divine grace. Bhakti has no other source than the divine couple.

 

So we can see how in the Jewish history they went from being idol worships of various gods to Mono-theists worshiping One God ,albeit in the mode of ignorance there was some appreciation for One God, to the refinement of Jesus Christ who taught connecting with God within and worshiping Him there along with forgivness and service to others in this plane.

 

IOW He brought the whole thing up to the level of karma/bhakti yoga. So as far as I am concerned the only thing in the Bible that holds interest for me are the Gospels which contain direct referrence Christ.

 

As far as I am concerned the Gospels of Christ should exist as a separate book from the Old Testament and even the New Testament just as Bhagavad-gita is separated from the rest of the Mahabharata.

 

Jesus used the example of new wine being poured into old wine skins. Apparently new wine poured into the previous years containers would cause them to split and the wine lost so they used new skin for new wine.

 

I take this to mean what he was teaching won't fit into the old religious model provided by the old ways. Instead of stoning the woman caught in adultry as prescribed in OT law He said, "let the one without sin cast the first stone" ,causing the religious accusers to become introspective and feel their own sin and shame. They all turned and walked away humbled by what they were forced to confront within themselves. To the woman He said "go your way and sin no more".

 

There is little or no place for old models of religion in todays atmosphere. I see genune religion in the teaching of Lord Jesus Christ and that becoming more revealed. refined and developed in Gaudya Vaisnavism.

 

Just my viewpoint.

[theist]

Srila Prabhupada was at one time contemplating translating the Bible with Satsvarupa but decided against reasoning it wouldn't be accepted.

 

I have to agree more or less with Guruvani that once he started he wouldn't have continued to bother with the OT at all. I would have loved to hear his commentary of Christ's teaching however.

[HerServant]

 

I doubt that Srila Prabhupada ever read the Bible to really know the kind of bizarre things you can find in the Bible.

Srila Prabhupada, unlike Bhaktivinoda, was a devotee from birth and never experimented or searched outside the Gaudiya faith.

 

If Srila Prabhupada actually had read the Bible to see the kind of junk that is in that book, I am not so sure he would have called it "Veda".

 

Srila Prabhupada's familiarity with the history and contents of the Bible was practically nil as far as I know.

 

 

 

Then you are saying that Srila Prabhupada is not an authority on Bible or Jesus.

 

This I can agree with.

 

However, this means that everything he ever "wrote or said" about Jesus must be a forgery purveyed by antichrist ISKCON devotees and BBT.

 

If your statement is true that must be fact if indeed Srila Prabhupada knew nothing of Bible, because if he is "thoroughly honest" he could not make ANY comment about something of which he had no familiarity.

 

Thank you Guruvani for this clarification. There can be NO Vaisnava authority on Bible and Jesus without serious study of the New and Old Testament.

 

Since you do not study either, this means that you of course are not an authority and will further remain silent at the Holy Name of Jesus as you admittedly profess rejection of study of any account of Him.

[Smiley]

Numbers 31 (NIV)

 

9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps.

 

11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals,

12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

 

 

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them.

16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people.

17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,

18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

 

_____

 

"One who knows the principles of religion never kills ... children, women ..."

Sri Krishna | Srimad Bhagavatam: Canto 1 - Chapter 7 - Sloka 36

[HerServant]

Well, if you are pointing your arguments at fundamentalists, they I am sure would be happy to defend everything in the Old Testament. But I think if you are trying to discredit an entire body of devotional tradition (Jewish and Christian) by pointing out the "crazy" things in the bible, you are wasting precious devotional time.

 

Why? The same can be done by bible thumpers.

 

Vedantists hold that all the Vedas too are sacred, including Yajurveda which details the Ashvamedha sacrifice.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yajurveda

 

The Vedic sacrifice

 

The Ashvamedha could only be conducted by a king (r?j?). Its object was the acquisition of power and glory, the sovereignty over neighbouring provinces, and general prosperity of the kingdom.

The horse to be sacrificed must be a stallion, more than 24, but less than 100 years old. The horse is sprinkled with water, and the Adhvaryu and the sacrificer whisper mantras into its ear. Anyone who should stop the horse is ritually cursed, and a dog is killed symbolic of the punishment for the sinners. The horse is then set loose towards the North-East, to roam around wherever it chooses, for the period of one year (or half a year, according to some commentators). The horse is associated with the Sun, and its yearly course. If the horse wanders into neighbouring provinces hostile to the sacrificer, they must be subjugated. The wandering horse is attended by a hundred young men, sons of princes or high court officials, charged with guarding the horse from all dangers and inconvenience. During the absence of the horse, an uninterrupted series of ceremonies is performed in the sacrificer's home.

After the return of the horse, more ceremonies are performed. The horse is yoked to a gilded chariot, together with three other horses, and RV 1.6.1,2 (YV VSM 23.5,6) is recited. The horse is then driven into water and bathed. After this, it is anointed with ghee by the chief queen and two other royal consorts. The chief queen anoints the fore-quarters, and the others the barrel and the hind-quarters. They also embellish the horse's head, neck, and tail with golden ornaments. The sacrificer offers the horse the remains of the night's oblation of grain.

After this, the horse, a hornless he-goat, a wild ox (go-mrga, Bos gavaeus) are bound to sacrificial stakes near the fire, and seventeen other animals are attached to the horse. A great number of animals, both tame and wild, are tied to other stakes, according to a commentator 609 in total (YV VSM 24 consists of an exact enumeration).

Then the horse is slaughtered (YV VSM 23.15, tr. Griffith)

Steed, from thy body, of thyself, sacrifice and accept thyself.

Thy greatness can be gained by none but thee.

The chief queen ritually calls on the king's fellow wives for pity. The queens walk around the dead horse reciting mantras. The chief queen then has to mimic copulation with the dead horse, while the other queens ritually utter obscenities.

On the next morning, the priests raise the queen from the place where she has spent the night with the horse. With the Dadhikra verse (RV 4.39.6, YV VSM 23.32), a verse used as a purifier after obscene language.

 

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashvamedha

[suchandra]

 

Numbers 31

 

9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps.

 

11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals,

12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

 

 

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them.

16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people.

17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

This is a quite risky approach to take things out of context - the same can be done with the Vedas. "One day some robbers caught him in a field. They took him to a Kali temple to offer him as a human sacrifice to the Kali. Bharata did not resist." Rather Christians would point out that Vedic wisdom never left India for thousands of years because it does not conform to certain requirements of non-Hindus, is not meant for non-Hindus, or point out that Western followers of vedic culture are rarely able to follow all the rules, fall down in series, and that only Christians can look retrospectively at a successful preaching tradition for more than 2000 years, etc.

[Smiley]

I don't observe that ritual, neither do I compare the sacrifice of horses with the slaughter of male infants and the sexual slavery of their older sisters.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Far out!

[theist]

This is really more bizarre than I thought.

 

 

Then the horse is slaughtered (YV VSM 23.15, tr. Griffith)

Steed, from thy body, of thyself, sacrifice and accept thyself.

Thy greatness can be gained by none but thee.

The chief queen ritually calls on the king's fellow wives for pity. The queens walk around the dead horse reciting mantras. The chief queen then has to mimic copulation with the dead horse, while the other queens ritually utter obscenities.

On the next morning, the priests raise the queen from the place where she has spent the night with the horse. With the Dadhikra verse (RV 4.39.6, YV VSM 23.32), a verse used as a purifier after obscene language.

 

 

Now I am supposed to accept this conduct just because it is in a body of books called the vedas? No thanks.

[mahak]

He is the authority, and he instructs all vaisnavas what I stated above. Glorification of God is practiced by all thoroughly honest people, and the LITERATURE that promotes such glorification is ACCEPTED, "even if imperfectly composed".

 

You can cut and paste all you want, but consider the christian who may read, out of context, the story of Wild Kali ma, chopping up the offenders and her witches drinking their blood. The way you naysayers cut and paste to promote your ignorance over what constitutes glorification of God and what Narada tells Vyasadeva is BETTER than his veda, would be hard pressed to speak of the authenticity of Srimad Bhagavatam to one who has been given the out of context twenty second sound bites. From Srimad Bhagavatam, we see God< Krsna, causing Yudhisthira to lie and cheat to gain advantage over the undefeatable Dronacarya. We see Lord Rama shooting the monkey king in the back, we see Vamanadeva cheating Bali out of the three worlds.

 

Srila Prabhupada did get instruction on Christian theology from his christian disciples. I know of one person who read the entire Aquarian Gospel to Srila Prabhupada, and discuss the points largely hidden from the canon christian world. Another disciple was given the service to continue his scholarly persuit of christian theology in order to effectively communicate with the "thoroughly honest" christian. With this one brother of mine, his instructions included the fact that Lord Chaitanya was fully coinversant with the qoran, so much so that he used such scripture to defeat the muslim authority, the Kazi.

 

Prabhupada always insists that he changes nothing, that he presents Vyasadeva as he is. Any worthless commentaries that dispute this fact, especially this nauseus notion that he patronized other religions with false praise for false doctrine, are most offensive. Srila Prabhupada is Vyasadeva, who has been told by his Guru, Narada Muni, that the bible is even better than the veda, even though it may have blemishes in composition.

 

Hare Krsna. mahaksadasa

[Smiley]

I agree with you that we should be careful not to take things out of context. However as someone who was raised studying the Bible, I can assure you that the excerpt given is not out of context, but represents a consistent theme throughout the Jewish Bible. Jehovah gave specific instructions on how to treat slaves, how to 'purify' the land of Canaan of the indigenous peoples, etc. The point here is not to criticize Jewish and Christian people, only to highlight the differences between their ancient texts and the Vedas. In regards to the quote you referenced, "robbers" deciding to sacrifice a human being is not comparable with the worshiped deity of Jews and Christians demanding that people kill old men, women and their infant sons. I see a difference between an account of the actions of criminals and a 'divine' command. The treatment of the Canaanites was mandated to Moses directly from Jehovah, using very specific language.

 

 

This is a quite risky approach to take things out of context - the same can be done with the Vedas. "One day some robbers caught him in a field. They took him to a Kali temple to offer him as a human sacrifice to the Kali. Bharata did not resist." Rather Christians would point out that Vedic wisdom never left India for thousands of years because it does not conform to certain requirements of non-Hindus, is not meant for non-Hindus, or point out that Western followers of vedic culture are rarely able to follow all the rules, fall down in series, and that only Christians can look retrospectively at a successful preaching tradition for more than 2000 years, etc.