The Bible Is Veda

[Guruvani]

 

 

 

Since you do not study either, this means that you of course are not an authority and will further remain silent at the Holy Name of Jesus as you admittedly profess rejection of study of any account of Him.

 

Unlike Srila Prabhupada I have studied the Bible even after becoming a "Hare Krishna".

I grew up with a Christian mother and went to church all through my childhood and VBS on summer vacation.

 

So, as far as being an authority on the Bible I am not.

But, I have studied quite considerably the Bible.

 

My studies of the Bible convinced me it was useless for actual spiritual advancement.

[HerServant]

 

I agree with you that we should be careful not to take things out of context. However as someone who was raised studying the Bible, I can assure you that the excerpt given is not out of context, but represents a consistent theme throughout the Jewish Bible. Jehovah gave specific instructions on how to treat slaves, how to 'purify' the land of Canaan of the indigenous peoples, etc. The point here is not to criticize Jewish and Christian people, only to highlight the differences between their ancient texts and the Vedas. In regards to the quote you referenced, "robbers" deciding to sacrifice a human being is not comparable with the worshiped deity of Jews and Christians demanding that people kill old men, women and their infant sons. I see a difference between an account of the actions of criminals and a 'divine' command. The treatment of the Canaanites was mandated to Moses directly from Jehovah, using very specific language.

 

Smiley Prabhu,

 

Studying the bible under whose guidance? We should understand that in each tradition and culture, we have those in the mode of passion, darkness or goodness. All are worshipping God even if unconsciously. We particularly see this in context of proper sacrifice offered to Him, the Supreme Lord.

 

Those in ignorance are offering even self sacrifice as in suicide bombing. Those in passion often offer money but carry on their lives steeped in passionate activites. Those in goodness are actually offering correctly.

 

We must not become a fundamentalist to "spite" fundamentalists. For example, Isaiah 2 :

 

2And it hath come to pass, In the latter end of the days, Established is the mount of Jehovah's house, Above the top of the mounts, And it hath been lifted up above the heights, And flowed unto it have all the nations.

 

3And gone have many peoples and said, `Come, and we go up unto the mount of Jehovah, Unto the house of the God of Jacob, And He doth teach us of His ways, And we walk in His paths, For from Zion goeth forth a law, And a word of Jehovah from Jerusalem.

 

4And He hath judged between the nations, And hath given a decision to many peoples, And they have beat their swords to ploughshares, And their spears to pruning-hooks, Nation doth not lift up sword unto nation, Nor do they learn any more -- war.

 

5O house of Jacob, come, And we walk in the light of Jehovah.'

 

6For Thou hast left Thy people, the house of Jacob. For they have been filled from the east, And [are] sorcerers like the Philistines, And with the children of strangers strike hands.

 

7And its land is full of silver and gold, And there is no end to its treasures, And its land is full of horses, And there is no end to its chariots,

 

8And its land is full of idols, To the work of its hands it boweth itself, To that which its fingers have made,

 

9And the low boweth down, and the high is humbled, And Thou acceptest them not.

 

10Enter into a rock, and be hidden in dust, Because of the fear of Jehovah, And because of the honour of His excellency.

 

11The haughty eyes of man have been humbled, And bowed down hath been the loftiness of men, And set on high hath Jehovah alone been in that day.

 

12For a day [is] to Jehovah of Hosts, For every proud and high one, And for every lifted up and low one,

 

13And for all cedars of Lebanon, The high and the exalted ones, And for all oaks of Bashan,

 

14And for all the high mountains, And for all the exalted heights,

 

15And for every high tower, And for every fenced wall,

 

16And for all ships of Tarshish, And for all desirable pictures.

 

17And bowed down hath been the haughtiness of man, And humbled the loftiness of men, And set on high hath Jehovah alone been in that day.

 

18And the idols -- they completely pass away.

 

19And [men] have entered into caverns of rocks, And into caves of dust, Because of the fear of Jehovah, And because of the honour of His excellency, In His rising to terrify the earth.

 

20In that day doth man cast his idols of silver, And his idols of gold, That they have made for him to worship, To moles, and to bats,

 

21To enter into cavities of the rocks, And into clefts of the high places, Because of the fear of Jehovah, And because of the honour of His excellency, In His rising to terrify the earth.

 

22Cease for you from man, Whose breath [is] in his nostrils, For -- in what is he esteemed?

 

The above verse in NOT actually a Vengeful God but one who is Mercy. Mercy because He promises to shatter and destroy (mayavadi) self pride.

 

Also, there is much allegory used in the Bible.

 

It CAN be studied as a vedic text, .. but whether in the mode of goodness, passion, or darkness is based on the condition of the students heart.

[HerServant]

 

Unlike Srila Prabhupada I have studied the Bible even after becoming a "Hare Krishna".

I grew up with a Christian mother and went to church all through my childhood and VBS on summer vacation.

 

So, as far as being an authority on the Bible I am not.

But, I have studied quite considerably the Bible.

 

My studies of the Bible convinced me it was useless for actual spiritual advancement.

 

Scholars agree that the book of Moses is written by at least 5 distinct authors. It is interesting to note that the sacrifices of Melchisadek as recorded in these books is written in a style completely foreign to the rest of the 5 books of Moses. Also intereting is that Melchisadek's sacrifice was "vegetarian" i.e. wine/grapes and bread.

 

So I think the proper perspective on Bible study is that it can only be properly understood in CONTEXT of Vedic teachings. We should also "look" to allegory in the bible, for example, a "house" or a "tree" is often a reference to the human being.

 

And a child is often a reference to an "offspring" of a virtue or vice. Hence the offspring (child) of greed, should be killed just as greed needs to be killed.

 

Some believe that the bible was written in allegory (parables) to punish the prideful.

 

So let's not be as prideful as bible bangers .. maybe we can extract or take only the nectar and enlighten those with less understanding.

 

Peace,

Her Servant and yours.

[Guruvani]

 

Scholars agree that the book of Moses is written by at least 5 distinct authors. It is interesting to note that the sacrifices of Melchisadek as recorded in these books is written in a style completely foreign to the rest of the 5 books of Moses. Also intereting is that Melchisadek's sacrifice was "vegetarian" i.e. wine/grapes and bread.

 

So I think the proper perspective on Bible study is that it can only be properly understood in CONTEXT of Vedic teachings. We should also "look" to allegory in the bible, for example, a "house" or a "tree" is often a reference to the human being.

 

And a child is often a reference to an "offspring" of a virtue or vice. Hence the offspring (child) of greed, should be killed just as greed needs to be killed.

 

Some believe that the bible was written in allegory (parables) to punish the prideful.

 

So let's not be as prideful as bible bangers .. maybe we can extract or take only the nectar and enlighten those with less understanding.

 

Peace,

Her Servant and yours.

 

What I do know is that most Bible thumpers call Krishna the Devil.

You judge a book by it's fruits.

The Bible has produced some of the most envious, blasphemous offenders of Krishna on the face of the Earth.

 

Christians aren't respectful or considerate of the Vaishnava culture and religion.

They are products of the Bible.

The Bible people are the most envious, hateful and offensive people on Earth.

 

I spent years preaching Hare Krishna on the streets of America.

I know what these Bible thumpers are all about.

 

I have no use for them.

Being kind and respectful is useless.

 

As soon as you mention Krishna they turn into demons.

As long as you bend over and take it from them they are nice.

As soon as you mention Krishna they become hostile.

 

Demons.

Just demons.

That is all I see.

[CCC]

 

What I do know is that most Bible thumpers call Krishna the Devil.

You judge a book by it's fruits.

The Bible has produced some of the most envious, blasphemous offenders of Krishna on the face of the Earth.

 

Christians aren't respectful or considerate of the Vaishnava culture and religion.

They are products of the Bible.

The Bible people are the most envious, hateful and offensive people on Earth.

 

I spent years preaching Hare Krishna on the streets of America.

I know what these Bible thumpers are all about.

 

I have no use for them.

Being kind and respectful is useless.

 

As soon as you mention Krishna they turn into demons.

As long as you bend over and take it from them they are nice.

As soon as you mention Krishna they become hostile.

 

Demons.

Just demons.

That is all I see.

The problem is not the scripture, the problem are the religions. Modern Christians are not the product of the bible are the product of the religions. They don't follow the comandments, they kill, robe, say lies... the religions are contaminated by the western way of life. The pope take seat in a golden throne and preach humility, they say that they are poor and have banks, they wear expensive cloths. where the bible teach such things?

 

so the so-called Christian are not christian at all, it is hipocrecy, they don't follow their scriptures, even they don't read them. The religion are created by the human beings not God, God reveals scriptures according time place and circumstances and then some people create an interpretation then all blind sheeps follow them.

[shvu]

 

The problem is not the scripture, the problem are the religions. Modern Christians are not the product of the bible are the product of the religions. They don't follow the comandments, they kill, robe, say lies... the religions are contaminated by the western way of life. The pope take seat in a golden throne and preach humility, they say that they are poor and have banks, they wear expensive cloths. where the bible teach such things?

 

so the so-called Christian are not christian at all, it is hipocrecy, they don't follow their scriptures, even they don't read them. The religion are created by the human beings not God, God reveals scriptures according time place and circumstances and then some people create an interpretation then all blind sheeps follow them.

 

And what evidence do you have that early Christians were any different? History says Christianity has been a violent religion putting down opponents by any means necessary to acquire and maintain total domination. If Christians were always narrow and parochial, where is your logic in trying to defend the bible?

 

The roots of this violent outlook are in the Bible - preaching narrow exclusive status to Christians and condemning non-Christians aka idolators. This intolerant approach moulded the minds of Christians - then and now - to render them incapable of accepting the possible validity of any religion other than their own. Hardly makes sense to separate the bible from its followers and condemn only the followers. I do not have to quote those verses as everyone knows them and they are unequivocal as can be - much as you would like to pretend they do not exist.

 

Christians and Muslims - who together form the majority of the world's population do not consider anyone outside their own fold as theists. For instance, it does not matter if the Hare Krishna gave up everything to live a religious life centered around Krishna worship. In the eyes of the two dominant religions, the Hare Krishna is worshipping a false God and is hell bound. In their eyes the Hare Krishna is an atheist. There is nothing in the bible to challenge this position.

 

Of course, we live in a global world today and confrontation is not like what it was a few centuries ago. Today though a lily white conservative may not like to eat at a restaurant which serves other races, there is not much he or she can do about it. It is a "smile and look happy" thing. Similar facades are necessary for religion too. So if the Christian does not condemn a Hindu for idolatary and worshipping false Gods, it does not mean those thoughts are not running in his or her mind.

 

In short, as far as a Christian or a Muslim is concerned, you are an atheist. This is not something he or she makes up, it comes straight from the Bible, much as you dislike to hear that. Your attempts to reinterpret other religions to suit your Hare Krishna beliefs are of no value to anyone but to yourself. The link between the two exist only in your mind and exists only because you want it to exist.

 

Cheers

[suchandra]

 

 

Christians aren't respectful or considerate of the Vaishnava culture and religion.

 

Agreed, but the exact same one can say about people like Harikes. Or do you call the beheading of Jayatirtha respectful and considerate?

For many Christians the Vaishnavas are childish newcomers who want to have immediately what it took them 2000 years to accomplish. A bunch of fanatics like Kirtananda who wanted to be worshipped like king Louis XIV, also known as Sun King - even at the cost to commit all kind of abominable criminal activities. And did he ever confess with one word having made mistakes? Or take the cruelness of Bhagavan, 3000 disciples weren't enough, he wanted to steal their money. And there could be a whole book written about the behaviour and character of those who were truly initiated into Vaishnavism. Or take Prithu, how he treated his own sons, can this be called "respectful or considerate of the Vaishnava culture and religion"? All rare exceptions? Now they passed all kind of resolutions that the different Vaishnava groups shouldnt accept each other as Vaishnavas anymore, imposing temple bans, and so on and so forth. But pointing out that Christians are small-minded, this is funny.

[HerServant]

Who is Christian? An institution or the saints genuinely inspired by Jesus Lila?

 

How about these "Christians"

 

 

" Kurisumala Ashram is a community of spiritual seekers who have become one in the spirit. The spiritual light of Kurisumala is the Acharya, the leader of seekers. The history of Kurisumala Ashram is the history of Acharya. It was in 1955 that John, at baptism, a Belgian by birth, but brother Francis as a Cistercian monk, and an Indian citizen since 1968, reached Kerala. He was prompted by an inner call, a call to a new life.

 

He had travelled all over India to have a direct knowledge and experience of Her people. He felt, as by touch, the spiritual nature of India through learning, travelling and spiritual seeking. He visited and stayed in most of the great Ahrams of India.

 

In 1950, Abbe J. Monchanin (Swami Parama Arubi Ananda), a French missionary priest and H. Le Saux(Swami Abhishiktananda), a Benedictine monk, had founded the Christian way of life on the bank of river Kaveri, near Trichy (Tiruchirappally). Saccidananda Ashram, Shantivanam, was a Christian Ashram, based on Indian spiritual tradition. Br.Francis joined them and studied with them for a long time. He was specially interested in the Ashram life-style. John had come under the influence of Mahatma Gandhi when he was studying in London in1931. Gandhiji who had come for the Round Table Conference of the British Dominions had been contemptously spoken of as a half-naked fakir, yet it was in his simple Inidan dress that he led the delegates into Bucckingham Palace for an audience with Queen Mary. The nobility of his character and the simplicity of his life deeply touched John's heart. This influence promoted John to study the ancient culture of India to which he was from now on looking as to the land of Promise for him.

 

It was in 1955, after clebrating Chritmas night in a small village at the fiitgukks if tge mountains, that Zacharias Mar Athanasios, Bishop of Tiruvalla, a Syrian Catholic Church, invited Fr. Francis to make a monastic foundation in his diocese. It was therefore quite procidential that a few months later a gift of 88 acres of virgin land, in the Sahya Mountains was offered to him by Shri. K.V. Thomas Pottenkulam. Fr. Francis was then still alone but there was no delay in the fulfilment of his dream. Soon an English Benedictine monk offered to help him and, when they had settled on the land and built a small monastery for some twenty monks, in spite of the isolation and quasi-inaccessibility of the place, within three years, the community counted 15 members. At present they are 20; 16 'sannyasis', 1 'brahmachari' and 3 'sadhkas'.

 

Acharya does not wish the number of members to exceed twenty. Their life is dedication to God and neighbour. They ignore their own likes and dislikes. Five of them are priests. Ordination is given only when a priest is needed for Holy Eucharist and other sacramental ministries. He who is to receive ordination is selected by Acharya. They depart form their house and family for ever, there are no official home visits, but their families come to visit them at the ashram. Acharya was not interested to develop the community into a non astic order. It is so, that the number of members is restricted. Several 'sannyasis' founded Ashrams in other parts of Kerala, in Tamil Nadu and Karanataka, some who were members of this Asharam joined the Missionaries of Charity of Mother Teresa, working in leprosy colonies and homes for mentally handicapped. But, with a view to assure the future of the community they sought affiliation with Acharaya's former monstic order and were officially incorporated in the order od the Cistercians of the Strict Observance on May 24, 1988."

 

Do you think Krsna does not like them because they study Bible?

 

http://www.vagamon.com/kurisumala/kurisumala.htm

 

It is interesting to know the day to day life of the Asharam. They join meditation and devotion, study and service in life. A day is divided almost equally in hours for prayer, study, work and rest. Prayer starts at 4.00 a.m. in the morning. As was common in the early monastic tradition they maintain the spirit of prayer in the various works of the day. Prayer with the Harp of the Spirit, in 4 vols., is their main prayer book. Immersed in asceticim and prayer for 25 years Acharya translated this from the Syriac Penqitho of Mosal in the Anthiochen liturgical tradition. Satsang, in the evening is a common feature in Indian Ashrams long practised at Krisumala. This is an ooccasion for a, monks and guests, to join more freely in bhajans and spiritual songs. The traditional Upasana meditation, consisting in sravana, the inner listening, manana, the active reflcetion, and nididhasana, the contemplative concentraction is also used. The Sadhakas who recite all the day, Om Shri Yesu Bhagavate Namah (I bow before you, Jesus) in their heart and on their lips, pray to that beloved : Om, Lokah Samastha, Sukhino Bhavantu', (Om, May all the world be happy!). The formation of the sadhakas takes place in the community with the help of the experienced senior members.

 

ASHRAM TIME - TABLE

04.00-05.00 Night Vigil, Meditation

05.00-06-00 Yoga, Bible Reading, Reflection

06.00-06.45 Eucharistic Celebration On Sundays and Feasts at 10.00

07.00 Breakfast

07.30-08.30 Meditative Reading, Study

08.30-10.45 'Bread-Labour'

11.00 Study, Spiritual Reading

12.00 Mid-day Prayer, Meal, Rest

02.15 Prayer, Sundays and Feasts 02.30

03.00 Tea "Bread-Labour"

05.30 Bath, Study, Reading

06.30 Evening Prayer, Meditation, Supper

08.00 Satsangh

08.30 Night Prayer, Retiring

[matarisvan]

 

And what evidence do you have that early Christians were any different? History says Christianity has been a violent religion putting down opponents by any means necessary to acquire and maintain total domination. If Christians were always narrow and parochial, where is your logic in trying to defend the bible?

 

The roots of this violent outlook are in the Bible - preaching narrow exclusive status to Christians and condemning non-Christians aka idolators. This intolerant approach moulded the minds of Christians - then and now - to render them incapable of accepting the possible validity of any religion other than their own. Hardly makes sense to separate the bible from its followers and condemn only the followers. I do not have to quote those verses as everyone knows them and they are unequivocal as can be - much as you would like to pretend they do not exist.

 

Christians and Muslims - who together form the majority of the world's population do not consider anyone outside their own fold as theists. For instance, it does not matter if the Hare Krishna gave up everything to live a religious life centered around Krishna worship. In the eyes of the two dominant religions, the Hare Krishna is worshipping a false God and is hell bound. In their eyes the Hare Krishna is an atheist. There is nothing in the bible to challenge this position.

 

Of course, we live in a global world today and confrontation is not like what it was a few centuries ago. Today though a lily white conservative may not like to eat at a restaurant which serves other races, there is not much he or she can do about it. It is a "smile and look happy" thing. Similar facades are necessary for religion too. So if the Christian does not condemn a Hindu for idolatary and worshipping false Gods, it does not mean those thoughts are not running in his or her mind.

 

In short, as far as a Christian or a Muslim is concerned, you are an atheist. This is not something he or she makes up, it comes straight from the Bible, much as you dislike to hear that. Your attempts to reinterpret other religions to suit your Hare Krishna beliefs are of no value to anyone but to yourself. The link between the two exist only in your mind and exists only because you want it to exist.

 

Cheers

 

Modern Christians are better than Christians of the past. A Hindu worshipping images and singing bhajans in a Christian country would have been stoned to death.

[HerServant]

 

Modern Christians are better than Christians of the past. A Hindu worshipping images and singing bhajans in a Christian country would have been stoned to death.

 

26th October 2007

 

 

Five Franciscan Clarists Nuns Attacked in Indore , Madhya Pradesh

 

Bhopal : A group of people wearing khaki shorts and white shirts with sticks barged into Mr. Anil ‘s house. The sisters along with people were praying in the house of Mr. Anil who is a catholic and driver of the Franciscan clarist sisters. The incident took place at around 8.30 pm. A mob allegedly lead by Mr. Mehra, Mr. Shivcharan and Manju began to beat them falsely accusing them of attempt to convert. The incident took place at shukliya ,15 kilometers away from Nanda Nagar Indore city in Madhya Pradesh. The sisters were reached back to the hospital with the help of district collector of Indore.

 

The sisters who were beaten are Srs. Jincy (4o), Sr. Sayujia (27), Sr. Pavitra (26), Sr. Sweta (26) and Sr. Anna Maria (27). All of them are injured, the condition of Sr. Jincy is said to be serious with head injuries. She is still in the hospital.

 

Shukliya area comes under the Banganga police station. The Police refused to file FIR till 7 pm in the evening on 26th October. The Additional S.P and CSP Mr. Parasor said to have threatened the Christians of dare consequences of filing the FIR. By evening around 6 pm Fr. Joseph Vallasery informed the Regional Public Relations Office , Bhopal, of the worsening situation in Indore. He said, “Due to Global Industrial Meet no police officer or any senior officer is ready to listen to any thing, even the media refused to cover the news from Indore sighting this.”

 

After discussions with Archbishop Dr. Leo Cornelio, Chairman, Catholic Bishops Council of Madhya Pradesh and Chattisgarh, Fr. Anand Muttungal, Regional Public Relations Officer & Spokesperson, spoke over the phone to Shri. A R Pawar IPS, Director General of Police, Madhya Pradesh, about the dawn to dusk hunger strike that church plans for 27th October in Indore which is also the day of the Global investors meet in protest against the inaction of the police and their refusal to file FIR.” The DGP assured immediate action and registration of the FIR.

 

Around 8 pm the DIG and SP Indore spoke to us and assured us of immediate action. They also requested to withdraw the hunger strike planned for 27th October. Police immediately sprang in to action. Taking into consideration of the larger interest of Madhya Pradesh in terms development expected through Global Industrial Meet , Catholic Church of Madhya Pradesh differed the date to 28th October 2007.

 

We request you all to keep us in your prayers.

 

Fr. Anand Muttungal

 

PRO & Spokesperson

 

Catholic Church, M.P & C.G

[HerServant]

 

Modern Christians are better than Christians of the past. A Hindu worshipping images and singing bhajans in a Christian country would have been stoned to death.

 

A Pastor and his community of believers have been humiliated and beaten up for refusing to partake in the meat offered to a Hindu goddess near Nirmal in Andhra Pradesh.

 

The residents of Krishnaraopet, a Lambadi tanda, near Nirmal in Adilabad district of Andhra Pradesh, had organised a puja on Dasara on 21 October 2007 in which they scarified a goat to goddess Durga. While distributing the meat among the devotees, they also offered a share to Pastor Bikku Lal and some of his Christian believers. When they refused to accept, the organisers of the puja started to manhandle them.

 

 

 

The Pastor and other victims approached the police station at Mamidala to file a complaint against the attackers. Even at the police station, some sympathisers of the attackers started to abuse the Pastor and other believers. They were joined by Sub Inspector Jairaju who openly supported the attackers.

 

 

Since there was no help from the police, the Pastor and the believers returned to the tanda where the attackers indulged in manhandling them, including tearing up of their clothes. They also insulted them, making fun of the Christian faith.

 

 

Then the Pastor sought the help of David and Rev Prabhu Das, All India Christian Council leaders from Adilabad. They approached the police officers concerned and brought the matter to the notice of the Superintendent of Police in Adilabad. Upon this, the local police filed a FIR against the attackers.

 

source: http://indianchristians.in/news/content/view/1655/45/

[sanatan]

 

...

In short, as far as a Christian or a Muslim is concerned, you are an atheist. This is not something he or she makes up, it comes straight from the Bible, much as you dislike to hear that. Your attempts to reinterpret other religions to suit your Hare Krishna beliefs are of no value to anyone but to yourself. The link between the two exist only in your mind and exists only because you want it to exist.

 

Cheers

 

Regarding Christians in general, a bitter reality, confirmed for myself by my own upbringing on the more-liberal end of conservative Christianity, and adult experience with evangelical Christians.

 

Other faiths are regarded as mere ciphers, totally meaningless and basis-less, simply heathen conversion targets.

 

Islamics, I've had little or no personal association with, but the picture I can see from info available confirms what you are saying.

 

These days, I just keep my mouth shut around Christians...trying to discuss with them is a useless expenditure of hot gases.

 

Souls like HerServant are very rare. Great link and info on the Christian monastery in India, HS...I can see ending it up in a place like that.

[suchandra]

 

Regarding Christians in general, a bitter reality....................

Agreed, but without it you'll never have made it to come to study the great literatures of Vaishnavism. Although the cultural background of many Vaishnavas of this age is more or less animal platform - if there would have been also no religious training in Christianity nobody would have made it to come to Vaishnavism. Of course present Vaishnavas would never admit this or can't even estimate what was the actual impact of Christianity upon their lives. Getting out of hand ingratitude is surely a quality of this age with what we have learn to live.

[sanatan]

 

Agreed, but without it you'll never have made it to come to study the great literatures of Vaishnavism. Although the cultural background of many Vaishnavas of this age is more or less animal platform - if there would have been also no religious training in Christianity nobody would have made it to come to Vaishnavism. Of course present Vaishnavas would never admit this or can't even estimate what was the actual impact of Christianity upon their lives. Getting out of hand ingratitude is surely a quality of this age with what we have learn to live.

 

Definitely.

 

My Christian upbringing gave me an innate sense of the spiritual and transcendental. The doctrinal aspects, sectarianism, and evangelical obnoxiousness are what I couldn't and still can't handle.

 

But then, we see those of atheistic or non-religious upbringings becoming Christians and Vaisnavas.

 

I guess it all comes down to causeless mercy.

[theist]

 

Agreed, but without it you'll never have made it to come to study the great literatures of Vaishnavism. Although the cultural background of many Vaishnavas of this age is more or less animal platform - if there would have been also no religious training in Christianity nobody would have made it to come to Vaishnavism. Of course present Vaishnavas would never admit this or can't even estimate what was the actual impact of Christianity upon their lives. Getting out of hand ingratitude is surely a quality of this age with what we have learn to live.

 

I see a great truth in the line suchandra is taking. We are accustomed to seeing only in terms of our immediate little present lifetime but the avatars and great preachers of God consciousness are not so limited. They see in larger cycles and their missions are for effecting larger periods like thousands of years at a time.

 

We should be careful not to project our puny vision onto them.

 

As souls become attracted by the idea of theism not only is their immediate consciousness affected but that also carries into their next birth to be built upon and that wherever that birth may be. We may be surprised to find Christianity in the past life backgrounds of many Sri and Madhvaite as well as Gaudiya Vaisnava's that carry no personal recollection of their past receipt of some influence from Christianity.

 

It may have been in some Church in England that a pujari in the south offered his first prayer to the Supreme Person. Who among us knows our even recent past life history?

 

Now picture the billions upon billions that have been inspired to pray simply by Lord Jesus Christ having placed His lotus feet upon the soil of earth? From other countries to other planets they are everywhere and many are continuing their search for the complete Supreme Lord. Those most sincere are even promoted to Christ-loka within this universe.

 

I am not suggesting that what we conceive of as Christianity is expanding all over. Jesus Christ did not come to spread Christianity. His message is bhakti, His path is bhakti, His very being is bhakti.

 

The colors and styles of the robes we may wear from one birth to the next have no relevance. Only bhakti realized is meaningful and eternal.

[HerServant]

 

Definitely.

 

My Christian upbringing gave me an innate sense of the spiritual and transcendental. The doctrinal aspects, sectarianism, and evangelical obnoxiousness are what I couldn't and still can't handle.

 

But then, we see those of atheistic or non-religious upbringings becoming Christians and Vaisnavas.

 

I guess it all comes down to causeless mercy.

 

Yes. Causeless mercy

 

The readers of my threads may find it interesting that I too battled fundamentalist "christians" on a daily basis in the late 70s. I had to because they condemned me and my entire family to hell as often.

 

But then while visiting an authentic monestary where "Christian" monks take vows of silence (for life), I realized that I was rejecting Jesus Christ because I wanted no affiliation with these bogus "christians".

 

So I just decided to surrender to Jesus in spite of the ignorant who claim Him as their own because I was only rejecting Him because of these "so called" Christians. Then my heart and eyes started to open.

 

"Seek and ye shall find" as He said.

 

As for me, I hope to be an authentic seeker and I know there are those on this forum who also aspire the same. To seek the feet of Krsna with authentic humility and loving worship.

 

For me, I approach the Son, by taking the shelter of Divine Mother, otherwise there is no other way I can stay with Him. And to worship the Father Krsna, I can only go to His feet by His Son Jesus. There is no other way for me to go.

 

"He who constantly rules the world is verily the cause of bondage and Liberation. Established in His own glory, He is the Immortal, the Embodiment of Consciousness, the omnipresent Protector of the universe. There is no one else able to rule it." - Svetasvatara Upanishad - 5:17

 

"If these truths have been told to a high-minded person who feels the highest devotion for God and for his guru as for God, then they will surely shine forth as inner experiences-then, indeed, they will shine forth." - Svetasvatara Upanishad - 5:23

[Kulapavana]

There are several known types of asvamedha yajna described in the Vedic writings, some of which are part of the black art rituals. There are even sacrifices meant to call demons out of the netherworld in order to destroy one's enemy. It is called Veda, or "Knowledge", and all kinds of stuff are included. Killing people in a very efficient way (like the hydrogen bomb) is also considered knowledge.

 

Most of these vedic rituals have become obsolete many centuries ago. Even the old black arts changed and were consolidated into Left-Hand (Vama-cara) Tantra.

 

The Bible, or any other book for that matter, is Veda only if it describes actual, verifiable knowledge.

[Smiley]

Why are you trying to push the Bible on Hindus?

Who I studied the Bible under is simply a red herring.

What is relevant is this idea that you seem to have

that the adherents of Santana Dharma are missing

something by not studying the Bible.

 

Great teachers like Sri Adi Shankara (who many

believe is Lord Shiva Himself) and Sri Chaitanya

Mahaprabhu (who many believe is Sri Krishna Himself)

appeared in India after the time of Jesus of Nazareth.

They saw no need to mention him at all. How did

they miss these 'great' insights that you have?

 

The Dharma is fine without Moses, Jesus or Mohammed.

That is not a criticism of Jews, Christians or Muslims

(my father is a devout Christian who I love and respect

very much), it is just a statement of confidence in the

sufficiency of the Dharma as it was delivered by the great

acharyas of the past. Is there anything wrong with that?

 

 

 

 

Smiley Prabhu,

 

Studying the bible under whose guidance? We should understand that in each tradition and culture, we have those in the mode of passion, darkness or goodness. All are worshipping God even if unconsciously. We particularly see this in context of proper sacrifice offered to Him, the Supreme Lord.

 

Those in ignorance are offering even self sacrifice as in suicide bombing. Those in passion often offer money but carry on their lives steeped in passionate activites. Those in goodness are actually offering correctly.

 

We must not become a fundamentalist to "spite" fundamentalists. For example, Isaiah 2 :

 

2And it hath come to pass, In the latter end of the days, Established is the mount of Jehovah's house, Above the top of the mounts, And it hath been lifted up above the heights, And flowed unto it have all the nations.

 

3And gone have many peoples and said, `Come, and we go up unto the mount of Jehovah, Unto the house of the God of Jacob, And He doth teach us of His ways, And we walk in His paths, For from Zion goeth forth a law, And a word of Jehovah from Jerusalem.

 

4And He hath judged between the nations, And hath given a decision to many peoples, And they have beat their swords to ploughshares, And their spears to pruning-hooks, Nation doth not lift up sword unto nation, Nor do they learn any more -- war.

 

5O house of Jacob, come, And we walk in the light of Jehovah.'

 

6For Thou hast left Thy people, the house of Jacob. For they have been filled from the east, And [are] sorcerers like the Philistines, And with the children of strangers strike hands.

 

7And its land is full of silver and gold, And there is no end to its treasures, And its land is full of horses, And there is no end to its chariots,

 

8And its land is full of idols, To the work of its hands it boweth itself, To that which its fingers have made,

 

9And the low boweth down, and the high is humbled, And Thou acceptest them not.

 

10Enter into a rock, and be hidden in dust, Because of the fear of Jehovah, And because of the honour of His excellency.

 

11The haughty eyes of man have been humbled, And bowed down hath been the loftiness of men, And set on high hath Jehovah alone been in that day.

 

12For a day [is] to Jehovah of Hosts, For every proud and high one, And for every lifted up and low one,

 

13And for all cedars of Lebanon, The high and the exalted ones, And for all oaks of Bashan,

 

14And for all the high mountains, And for all the exalted heights,

 

15And for every high tower, And for every fenced wall,

 

16And for all ships of Tarshish, And for all desirable pictures.

 

17And bowed down hath been the haughtiness of man, And humbled the loftiness of men, And set on high hath Jehovah alone been in that day.

 

18And the idols -- they completely pass away.

 

19And [men] have entered into caverns of rocks, And into caves of dust, Because of the fear of Jehovah, And because of the honour of His excellency, In His rising to terrify the earth.

 

20In that day doth man cast his idols of silver, And his idols of gold, That they have made for him to worship, To moles, and to bats,

 

21To enter into cavities of the rocks, And into clefts of the high places, Because of the fear of Jehovah, And because of the honour of His excellency, In His rising to terrify the earth.

 

22Cease for you from man, Whose breath [is] in his nostrils, For -- in what is he esteemed?

 

The above verse in NOT actually a Vengeful God but one who is Mercy. Mercy because He promises to shatter and destroy (mayavadi) self pride.

 

Also, there is much allegory used in the Bible.

 

It CAN be studied as a vedic text, .. but whether in the mode of goodness, passion, or darkness is based on the condition of the students heart.

[mahak]

Haribol. I dont read nor defend the bible, nor do I care for the religiosity of christians, hindus, jews, or muslims. But as our theist, Theist, states, Lord Jesus doesnt create religion, he presents bhakti, loving service of the Supreme Lord. And the literature which details this teaching is acceptable, as Sri Narada Muni verifies, despite apparent flaws:

 

SB 1.5.11: On the other hand, that literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, etc., of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bringing about a revolution in the impious lives of this world's misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest.

 

So, if literature uplifts one to the point of bhakti, even rudimentary, then honest folks accept. But the key word here is "purified", which means that alone, without being elaborated upon by a devotee, it may not work.

 

The arguement about Chaitanya and Sankaracarya not teaching Jesus is bogus, because there was no need. However, Lord Chaitanya did teach the koran to the Kazi, and convinced the Kazi to accept bhakti yoga in the form of samkirtana on the strength of the koran. To argue this point is useless, and these naysayers have no clue how to respond. If the koran is acceptable preaching tool by Chaitanya in preaching to muslims, then it is also fair to assume that biblical info is a preaching tool as well, because the koran is branched from the teachings of both the jewish and christian tradition. All three are brothers, some from esayu, some from ham, (yet they fight for their birthright caanaan).

 

Srila Prabhupada carried out the tradition from Lord Chaitanya by using the bible to convince the christian, not of religion, but of BHAKTI.

 

haribol, excellent, theist.

 

mahaksadasa

[HerServant]

 

Why are you trying to push the Bible on Hindus?

Who I studied the Bible under is simply a red herring.

What is relevant is this idea that you seem to have

that the adherents of Santana Dharma are missing

something by not studying the Bible.

 

Great teachers like Sri Adi Shankara (who many

believe is Lord Shiva Himself) and Sri Chaitanya

Mahaprabhu (who many believe is Sri Krishna Himself)

appeared in India after the time of Jesus of Nazareth.

They saw no need to mention him at all. How did

they miss these 'great' insights that you have?

 

The Dharma is fine without Moses, Jesus or Mohammed.

That is not a criticism of Jews, Christians or Muslims

(my father is a devout Christian who I love and respect

very much), it is just a statement of confidence in the

sufficiency of the Dharma as it was delivered by the great

acharyas of the past. Is there anything wrong with that?

 

I am not pushing bible. I did not start this thread. I am pointing out facts that devotees transcend religion/religiousity. It can be proven without a doubt that the Bible is a vedic record from historical, linguistic and comparative aspects.

 

Regarding Jesus, He is unlimited. The historical Jesus is in fact mentioned in the Vedas and many times. He is just called by many different names. The acharyas all mention Him.

 

For example, verse 7 chapter 90 of the 10th book of the Rigveda, the sacrifice of Prajapathy the Son of God, is well explained.

 

‘At the time of sacrifice, the son of God will be tightly tied to a wooden sacrificial post using iron nails by hands and legs, he will bleed to death and on the third day he will regain his life in a resurrection.” Evidently none of the avatars meets this description.

 

 

sa paryaghachachukrama virunamsnaviram shudhhama papavittham kavirmanishi :

paribhur swayambhur yadhatha ityadhorthan viyadhadhacha chiviyaha samabhyaha”

 

A self realized person visualizes that supreme personality of God head as

(1) paryagathaha – omnipresent

(2) Shukramaha – omnipotent

(3) akayamaha – having no phenomenal body

(4) avranamaha – in this person there are no imperfections that of gross physical body

(5) Asnaviramaha – without any vein (his actions do not depend upon the viens for emulation of blood to the limbs of his body which is perfect on his own occord, in other words no blood in his veins)

(6) shukthamaha – he is pure, perfect, no impurity

(7) appapavidhham – he is beyond any mundanity as maya never can have any hold ( dark ness can’t enter him) (8) kavihi – he becomes the efficient cause for the creation and preservation of the universe and therefore he is omniscient

(9) manishihi – he is the first philosopher who destroys the darkness of the heart of the soul with his spiritual light (10) paribhuhu – controller of everything

(11) swayambhuhu – self-existent, from the beginning, he is not of the father and mother by flesh

-isha upanishad

 

.In the beginning God was there and he was a spirit.

(Ithereya Upanishad:1/1/1)

 

Kathopanishad says:

“ Naiva vaacha na manasaa

Praapthum shakyo na chakshusha

Astheethi bruvathonyyathra

Kadam thadupalabhyathe ”

The Holy Spirit of the God cannot be reached with the eyes, mind or words. Only those who believe that He exists and says so, will be reaching Him.

(Katham 6:12)

 

“Sa eekshatheeme nu loka

Lokaa Paalaanusruja ithi

Sodbhaaya eva purusham

Samudruthya moorchayaayt”

After the creation of the Firmament, Earth and Waters, the Holy Spirit of the God thought like this. “I have created all the Worlds. For them I should create a protector (Savior). With this intention, the Holy Spirit created a Person from His own self.

(Ithareyopanishad 1. 1:3)

 

“Hiranyagarbha: samavarthaagre

Bhuuthasya jaatha: pathireka aaseeth

Sadaadhaara Prudhwivim dyaamuthemam

Kasmai devaaya havisha vidhemam.”

In the beginning, God and his supreme spirit alone existed. From the supreme Spirit of the God proceeded Hiranya Garbha, alias Prajapathy, the first born of the God in the form of light. As soon as born, he became the savior of all the worlds.

RgVeda X:121:1

 

“Thasmaad virraada jaayatha

viraajo adhi purusha:

Sjaatho athyarichyatha

Paschaad bhoomimadhopura:”

From that male the universe came into being. From that body of the universe came the omnipresent Person. That Person thus became manifest, adopted various forms and character and created the earth and other planets along with the creatures to live in them.

(Rigveda X:90:5)

 

“Purusha evedam sarvam

Yadbhutham yachabhavyam

Uthaamruthathwasya esaana

Ya daannenathirohathi”

This man, the first born of the God is all that was, all that is and all that has to be. And he comes to this world to give recompense to everybody as per his deeds.

(Rigveda X:90:2)

 

“Tham yajnam barhishi proukshan

Purusham jaathamagratha

Thena deva ayajantha

Sadhya rushayaschaye”

This man, the first born of the God, was tied to a wooden sacrificial post and the gods and the Kings along the seers performed the sacrifice

‘Purushasookta’ Rigveda X:90:7

 

“Thamevam Vidwanamruthaiha bhavathy

Nanya pandha ayanaya vidyathe”

This (sacrifice) is the only way for redemption and liberation of mankind. Those meditate and attain this man, believe in heart and chant with the lips, get liberated in this world itself and there is no other way for salvation too

Yajurveda XXXI:18, Rigveda X:90:16.

[suchandra]

 

I did not start this thread.

Thanks HerServant, this is wanted in times when institutionalized religion is so much shaken to the core by scandals: transcendentalists who display genuine symptoms of love of God. There were so many Christian spiritual mystics who left the institutional church but actually through there visible love of God unintendedly helped the institutional church to survive. People mainly developed faith in God not by the the institutional church but by saints like Jeanne d'arc, Francis of Assisi etc etc.

 

Prabhupada: I was student in the Scottish Churches College, and we had to attend half an hour Bible class. So Dr. W.S. Urquhart, he was teaching, Reverend W.S. Urquhart. He said, I remember, that “Where is the evidence? The Hindus believe in the karma, but where is the evidence that I did it?”The answer is here, that… We may not compare our inefficiency with the arrangement of the Supreme Lord. Now, God has kept so many witnesses. How you can escape? Here is a name, list of witness. Sūrya first of all—the sun. So how you can escape Sūrya’s light? You cannot escape. So here is one witness. Then Agni, fire. Then Kham, the sky. Where there is no sky? Here we are sitting; there is sky. And there is light also. Then Marut, air. Deva. Who is deva? Demigods, yes. Then Soma. At night there is moon. Sandhya, evening or noon. Noon is also sandhya. Sandhya means junction. When the night is going away—the day is coming early in the morning—that is also sandhya. When midday, the forenoon is passing—the afternoon is beginning—that is also sandhya. Tri-sandhya. Tri-sandhya. We have to chant Gāyatrī mantra tri-sandhya, early in the morning, in the midday and in the evening. That is tri-sandhya.

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 6.1.42

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Los Angeles, June 8, 1976

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Oooh!! Thanks for finding that quote. I'd *surmised* as much before on this forum, that Srila Prabhupada *must* have studied the Bible *somewhat* during his education at a Christian school.

 

Hopefully, Guruvani won't pull that "Prabhupada never studied the Bible" crap again (but, somewhow, I'm not so certain).

 

 

 

Prabhupada: I was student in the Scottish Churches College, and we had to attend half an hour Bible class.

[HerServant]

 

Oooh!! Thanks for finding that quote. I'd *surmised* as much before on this forum, that Srila Prabhupada *must* have studied the Bible *somewhat* during his education at a Christian school.

 

Hopefully, Guruvani won't pull that "Prabhupada never studied the Bible" crap again (but, somewhow, I'm not so certain).

 

 

ditto

[HerServant]

 

Thanks HerServant, this is wanted in times when institutionalized religion is so much shaken to the core by scandals: transcendentalists who display genuine symptoms of love of God. There were so many Christian spiritual mystics who left the institutional church but actually through there visible love of God unintendedly helped the institutional church to survive. People mainly developed faith in God not by the the institutional church but by saints like Jeanne d'arc, Francis of Assisi etc etc.

 

Prabhupada: I was student in the Scottish Churches College, and we had to attend half an hour Bible class. So Dr. W.S. Urquhart, he was teaching, Reverend W.S. Urquhart. He said, I remember, that “Where is the evidence? The Hindus believe in the karma, but where is the evidence that I did it?”The answer is here, that… We may not compare our inefficiency with the arrangement of the Supreme Lord. Now, God has kept so many witnesses. How you can escape? Here is a name, list of witness. S?rya first of all—the sun. So how you can escape S?rya’s light? You cannot escape. So here is one witness. Then Agni, fire. Then Kham, the sky. Where there is no sky? Here we are sitting; there is sky. And there is light also. Then Marut, air. Deva. Who is deva? Demigods, yes. Then Soma. At night there is moon. Sandhya, evening or noon. Noon is also sandhya. Sandhya means junction. When the night is going away—the day is coming early in the morning—that is also sandhya. When midday, the forenoon is passing—the afternoon is beginning—that is also sandhya. Tri-sandhya. Tri-sandhya. We have to chant G?yatr? mantra tri-sandhya, early in the morning, in the midday and in the evening. That is tri-sandhya.

?r?mad-Bh?gavatam 6.1.42

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhup?da

Los Angeles, June 8, 1976

 

Right. We are all being challenge by Lord Krsna to render authentic service. We have our institutions, big and small, but we can see the sins/crimes of the big institutions (e.g. Catholic Church) even in the small (ISKCON).

 

Do we then condemn all catholics or ISKCON members. No. I see that there are those that try to stay faithful and effect change within. However, I also recognize that this job is almost impossible.

 

In the example of St. Francis of Assisi .. he had to become sadhu first .. he walked out of his village naked and renounced. After many years of austerity he returned to the steps of St. Peters as a beggar demanding to see the pope. The pope refused, but was haunted by dreams of the "beggar". Then the audience was granted and he "converted" the pope! ie. the pope remembered the Lord.

 

We must follow the sadhu! Srila Prabhupada comes from the east to the west to annoint devotees. He challenges everyone to a life of authentic devotional service.

[gHari]

 

Great teachers like Sri Adi Shankara (who many

believe is Lord Shiva Himself) and Sri Chaitanya

Mahaprabhu (who many believe is Sri Krishna Himself)

appeared in India after the time of Jesus of Nazareth.

They saw no need to mention him at all. How did

they miss these 'great' insights that you have?

 

You were there? I think perhaps some kind of prejudice leads to such brash statements. Does it matter enough to lie about? Nothing matters that much.