Lord Shiva as Paramatma?

[Guruvani]

Brahma Samhita chapter 5 TEXT 45, purport by Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur:

 

 

 

Sambhu is not a second Godhead other than Krsna. Those, who entertain such discriminating sentiment, commit a great offense against the Supreme Lord. The supremacy of Sambhu is subservient to that of Govinda; hence they are not really different from each other.

[sevabhakta]

Well, sometimes Krsna might feel like Shiva is supreme.

[Guruvani]

Even Lord Vishnu relishes the sentiment of service to Krishna.

Lord Siva does as well, though Siva is another form of Krishna.

Lord Siva gets the added ecstacy of service to Krishna as does all the Vishnu avatars.

When Krishna comes into the the domain of Lord Shambhu, the material energy, he offers full respect and honor to Lord Shiva.

 

Sadasiva has his own realm in the Vaikuntha world where the pure devotees of Lord Siva attain upon perfection.

 

On the planet of Sadasiva he is worshiped as Supreme by his devotees.

 

The Rudra incarnations of Lord Siva are sometimes considered jiva tattva, but the original Sadasiva is in the same league as Vishnu-tattva.

[indulekhadasi]

 

Even Lord Vishnu relishes the sentiment of service to Krishna.

Lord Siva does as well, though Siva is another form of Krishna.

Lord Siva gets the added ecstacy of service to Krishna as does all the Vishnu avatars.

When Krishna comes into the the domain of Lord Shambhu, the material energy, he offers full respect and honor to Lord Shiva.

 

Sadasiva has his own realm in the Vaikuntha world where the pure devotees of Lord Siva attain upon perfection.

 

On the planet of Sadasiva he is worshiped as Supreme by his devotees.

 

The Rudra incarnations of Lord Siva are sometimes considered jiva tattva, but the original Sadasiva is in the same league as Vishnu-tattva.

 

That's true, the original Sadashiva lives above the Viraja river (spiritual world) in Mahesh Dham. Isn't it also that Parvati devi cannot die but Durga and Kali (her expansions) must die because they reside below the Viraja river in Rudra dhama?

[Guruvani]

 

That's true, the original Sadashiva lives above the Viraja river (spiritual world) in Mahesh Dham. Isn't it also that Parvati devi cannot die but Durga and Kali (her expansions) must die because they reside below the Viraja river in Rudra dhama?

 

I would guess that like the administrative demigods and some of the great rishis that these goddesses transform their material forms into spiritual forms and enter the spiritual world at the time of pralaya.

 

It could be called death, but I think it is different for them.

It is a transformation more than death.

[indulekhadasi]

 

I would guess that like the administrative demigods and some of the great rishis that these goddesses transform their material forms into spiritual forms and enter the spiritual world at the time of pralaya.

 

It could be called death, but I think it is different for them.

It is a transformation more than death.

 

I see. Just asking, do you have any scriptural reference for this?

[sevabhakta]

Srila Prabhupada explains ...

 

SB 1.3.5 Purport

Lord Visnu is nondifferent from the Personality of Godhead. Lord Siva is in the marginal position between the Personality of Godhead and the living entities, or jivas. Brahma is always a jiva-tattva. The highest pious living being, or the greatest devotee of the Lord, is empowered with the potency of the Lord for creation, and he is called Brahma. His power is like the power of the sun reflected in valuable stones and jewels. When there is no such living being to take charge of the post of Brahma, the Lord Himself becomes a Brahma and takes charge of the post.

Lord Siva is not an ordinary living being. He is the plenary portion of the Lord, but because Lord Siva is in direct touch with material nature, he is not exactly in the same transcendental position as Lord Visnu. The difference is like that between milk and curd. Curd is nothing but milk, and yet it cannot be used in place of milk.

 

And here is another hint about Sadhusiva's status.

 

SB 1.3.28 purport

The summum bonum Krsna is one without a second. He Himself has expanded Himself in various parts, portions and particles as svayam-rupa, svayam-prakasa, tad-ekatma, prabhava, vaibhava, vilasa, avatara, avesa, and jivas, all provided with innumerable energies just suitable to the respective persons and personalities. Learned scholars in transcendental subjects have carefully analyzed the summum bonum Krsna to have sixty-four principal attributes. All the expansions or categories of the Lord possess only some percentages of these attributes. But Sri Krsna is the possessor of the attributes cent percent. And His personal expansions such as svayam-prakasa, tad-ekatma up to the categories of the avataras who are all visnu-tattva, possess up to ninety-three percent of these transcendental attributes. Lord Siva, who is neither avatara nor avesa nor in between them, possesses almost eighty-four percent of the attributes.

 

Another piece of the puzzle.

 

SB 8.12.39 purport

 

 

Of the three chief demigods—Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara—all but Visnu are under the influence of maya. In Caitanya-caritamrta, they are described as mayi, which means “under maya’s influence.” But even though Lord Siva associates with maya, he is not influenced. The living entities are affected by maya, but although Lord Siva apparently associates with maya, he is not affected. In other words, all living entities within this material world except for Lord Siva are swayed by maya. Lord Siva is therefore neither visnu-tattva nor jiva-tattva. He is between the two.

[Guruvani]

 

I see. Just asking, do you have any scriptural reference for this?

 

There is the statement I saw in Bhagavatam about the demigods transforming their subtle bodies into spiritual bodies and entering the spiritual world at the time of pralaya.

But, right now, after a day at work I don't have the energy to go digging through the Vedabase to find it.

I would consider these goddesses as administrative demigods as they are all-pervasive in the material energy.

 

Parvati is Maya devi herself.

She does not die.

She simply transforms herself into her original form as the consort of Sadasiva and returns back to the Vaikuntha world.

 

That is my understanding but I am too tired to research the issue at this time of day.

[sevabhakta]

For the creation of this material world, the Lord expands as Brahma, Visnu, and Mahesvara (Siva). Visnu is a personal expansion, and Brahma is a jiva-tattva expansion. Between the personal visnu-tattva expansions and the jiva-tattva expansions is a kind of intermediate expansion called Siva, or Mahesvara.

 

I notice that Srila Prabhupada seems bound from giving a name to this "in between" status or category of Lord Siva.

 

Very mysterious.

[indulekhadasi]

 

well, well, well... Lord Krsna must die too when He appears in this world, so does Lord Ramacandra, is it not? What does that tell you, my dear?

 

Lord Shiva is very often completely misunderstood by the Vaishnavas, especially the Western ones. They consider Lord Shiva to be a mere demigod. How bogus is that?

 

No, I definitely know that Lord Shiva is NOT a demigod, but I am talking about expansions like Rudra.

[theist]

 

Be cautious all you like and I be sensitive when I see misrepresentation or ridiculing the source I provided. Be objective study both the sloka from your own source and refute it if you can

 

This thread has nothing to do with personalists or impersonalists schools. It is about Lord Shiva as Paramatma? In case you forgotten.

 

I had provided Rigved verse in support of Bhagvat Gita slok 11.39 which clearly indicates the Lord is known by those many names.

 

And the Bhagvat slok is actualy supporting the thread in question.

 

SB 8.7.21: The prajāpatis said: O greatest of all devas, Mahādeva, Supersoul of all living entities and cause of their happiness and prosperity, we have come to the shelter of your lotus feet. Now please save us from this fiery poison, which is spreading all over the three worlds.

 

So if you can refute both do so but don’t try deflect the truth, (for want of use of the word ‘it’) it was not presented to reflect impersonalist view.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Let's put it this way. Piss off.

[Kulapavana]

 

No, I definitely know that Lord Shiva is NOT a demigod, but I am talking about expansions like Rudra.

 

What about Lord Vishnu's expansions? They must die too, and we still worship them as equal to Lord Vishnu? What is so different with Sada-Shiva and His Rudra expansions? It can easily be claimed that Rudra expansions are purnam (complete) just like all Vishnu expansions are complete. When Shivaites worship Rudra they are worshipping Lord Sada-Shiva, who is non-different from Lord Vishnu.

 

For the sake of preaching Vaishnava acharyas sometimes make artificial distinctions, and even mis-translate the shastric verses on purpose to separate us from the Shiva-bhaktas, yet the truth is quite a bit different. Vishnu and Shiva's expansions are the same ice cream, just a different flavor. Take your pick but dont badmouth other flavors just because you have no taste for them.

[Guruvani]

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 6.79

 

ananta brahmāṇḍe rudra — sadāśivera aḿśa

guṇāvatāra teńho, sarva-deva-avataḿsa

 

SYNONYMS

ananta — unlimited; brahmāṇḍe — in the universes; rudra — Lord Śiva; sadāśivera aḿśa — part and parcel of Sadāśiva; guṇa-avatāra — an incarnation of a quality; teńho — he also; sarva-deva-avataḿsa — the ornament of all the demigods.

 

 

TRANSLATION

Rudra, who is an expansion of Sadāśiva and who appears in unlimited universes, is also a guṇāvatāra [qualitative incarnation] and is the ornament of all the demigods in the endless universes.

 

 

PURPORT

There are eleven expansions of Rudra, or Lord Śiva. They are as follows: Ajaikapāt, Ahibradhna, Virūpākṣa, Raivata, Hara, Bahurūpa, Devaśreṣṭha Tryambaka, Sāvitra, Jayanta, Pināki and Aparājita. Besides these expansions there are eight forms of Rudra called earth, water, fire, air, sky, the sun, the moon and soma-yājī. Generally all these Rudras have five faces, three eyes and ten arms. Sometimes it is found that Rudra is compared to Brahmā and considered a living entity. But when Rudra is explained to be a partial expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is compared to Śeṣa. Lord Śiva is therefore simultaneously an expansion of Lord Viṣṇu and, in his capacity for annihilating the creation, one of the living entities. As an expansion of Lord Viṣṇu he is called Hara, and he is transcendental to the material qualities, but when he is in touch with tamo-guṇa he appears contaminated by the material modes of nature. This is explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and the Brahma-saḿhitā. In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Tenth Canto, it is stated that Lord Rudra is always associated with the material nature when she is in the neutral, unmanifested stage, but when the modes of material nature are agitated he associates with material nature from a distance. In the Brahma-saḿhitā the relationship between Viṣṇu and Lord Śiva is compared to that between milk and yogurt. Milk is converted into yogurt by certain additives, but although milk and yogurt have the same ingredients, they have different functions. Similarly, Lord Śiva is an expansion of Lord Viṣṇu, yet because of his taking part in the annihilation of the cosmic manifestation, he is considered to be changed, like milk converted into yogurt. In the Purāṇas it is found that Śiva appears sometimes from the heads of Brahmā and sometimes from the head of Viṣṇu. The annihilator, Rudra, is born from Sańkarṣaṇa and the ultimate fire to burn the whole creation. In the Vāyu Purāṇa there is a description of Sadāśiva in one of the Vaikuṇṭha planets. That Sadāśiva is a direct expansion of Lord Kṛṣṇa's form for pastimes. It is said that Sadāśiva (Lord Śambhu) is an expansion from the Sadāśiva in the Vaikuṇṭha planets (Lord Viṣṇu) and that his consort, Mahāmāyā, is an expansion of Ramā-devī, or Lakṣmī. Mahāmāyā is the origin or birthplace of material nature.

 

[Ganeshprasad]

 

Let's put it this way. Piss off.

 

And i thought this was a spritual discussion.

May Lord Krishna/Shiva Bless you and me goodbye.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[shvu]

 

And i thought this was a spritual discussion.

May Lord Krishna/Shiva Bless you and me goodbye.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Actually Theist is one of the more stable ones on the forum and also one of the polite ones. This is not how he normally reacts to conflicting views, so I would say do not read too much into this remark.

 

He was just probably not in a good mood.

 

Cheers

[suchandra]

 

And i thought this was a spritual discussion.

May Lord Krishna/Shiva Bless you and me goodbye.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

We have to be patient and forgiving - this is the reality prabhu, since the invention of the internet some 15 years ago do think that the Vaishnavas have learned to properly use this tool or have to actually share something except things which cause people to never ever revisit? Take any village skittles club forum, they know better how to treat each other. But we have to be patient, some day things will improve.

It is a kind of loss of reality syndrome, you buy a pc machine, install all the software, buy an internet access and surf to a Vaishnava forum to read what? Meaningless banalities?

Therefore you find almost all the Vaishnava forums closed or deleted.

[indulekhadasi]

 

What about Lord Vishnu's expansions? They must die too, and we still worship them as equal to Lord Vishnu? What is so different with Sada-Shiva and His Rudra expansions? It can easily be claimed that Rudra expansions are purnam (complete) just like all Vishnu expansions are complete. When Shivaites worship Rudra they are worshipping Lord Sada-Shiva, who is non-different from Lord Vishnu.

 

For the sake of preaching Vaishnava acharyas sometimes make artificial distinctions, and even mis-translate the shastric verses on purpose to separate us from the Shiva-bhaktas, yet the truth is quite a bit different. Vishnu and Shiva's expansions are the same ice cream, just a different flavor. Take your pick but dont badmouth other flavors just because you have no taste for them.

 

Thanks for your explanation, I understand now. But it was not my intention to badmouth Lord Rudra at all and even if I did so unknowingly I beg for his forgiveness, as well as yours.

[Kulapavana]

 

Thanks for your explanation, I understand now. But it was not my intention to badmouth Lord Rudra at all and even if I did so unknowingly I beg for his forgiveness, as well as yours.

 

You are a very humble and intelligent Vaishnavi, you will go far on that road. My comment was general, not personal to you - I just used your post to make a general point. Thank you.

[theist]

 

Actually Theist is one of the more stable ones on the forum and also one of the polite ones. This is not how he normally reacts to conflicting views, so I would say do not read too much into this remark.

 

He was just probably not in a good mood.

 

Cheers

 

Thanks shvu. Actually I was in a good mood until I saw that he was going to keep dogging me on the issue even after two posts of mine explaining my position very clearly and politely.

 

So when searching for words to get the point across in a final way I settled on the ones that described how I felt bluntly about being dogged. It wouldn't have gotten to that point had he not kept insisting I enter into an area I made clear I did not want to go.

 

He is on a trip anyway. He is willing to ignore all the other posts from other members that he could respond to and instead concentrates on mine even after I made it crystal clear I had nothing further to say on the matter. And now he is so indignant he feels he must leave the forum because it is "unspiritual" instead of just leaving me alone to stew in my materialism. Bit of a drama queen IMO.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

...since the invention of the internet some 15 years ago...

 

Not a big deal, but it's the *World Wide Web* that started taking off around 1994 (when I graduated from college).

 

The Internet started out as DARPANET in 1969 according to this:

http://www.ideasociety.co.uk/darpa.htm

 

Anyways, thanks all for your illuminating and thoughtful replies!!

[suchandra]

 

well, well, well... Lord Krsna must die too when He appears in this world, so does Lord Ramacandra, is it not? What does that tell you, my dear?

 

Lord Shiva is very often completely misunderstood by the Vaishnavas, especially the Western ones. They consider Lord Shiva to be a mere demigod. How bogus is that?

It was discussed quite a lot if this is offensive or genuine Vaishnava tradition, to dress the Radha-Krishna Deities like Lord Shiva and Parvati at an Indian Festival being celebrated in the temple room like on this pic of Sri Sri Radha Madan Mohan:

[Kulapavana]

 

It was discussed quite a lot if this is offensive or genuine Vaishnava tradition, to dress the Radha-Krishna Deities like Lord Shiva and Parvati at an Indian Festival being celebrated in the temple room like on this pic of Sri Sri Radha Madan Mohan

 

as far as I know it is very much a Gaudiya tradition. you can even see Deities of Radha and Krsna painted with three horizontal lines symbolizing Lord Shiva (creation, maintenance, destruction) on that day.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam all

 

First I like to say I had not said goodbye to the forum, but there was no sensible discussion to be had with this person hence my byes.

 

Once again I am compelled to respond as he alleges that I hounded him and that he was polite, what nonsense.

 

1.It was him who responded to my post

 

2. He trashes my rest of the post and here what he said,

 

‘’The rest of the argument from such a contaminated source holds no interest to me for further consideration.’’

 

If this was polite I wonder what is rude? Piss off, Na.

 

All I quoted was bhagvat puran and bhagvat gita if that is contaminated I like to know why, a reasonable request I think, I am still waiting.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[Kulapavana]

 

Pranam all

 

First I like to say I had not said goodbye to the forum, but there was no sensible discussion to be had with this person hence my byes.

 

 

Prabhu, I beg you to reconsider. This is just a misunderstanding and I think you have a very valid point. Such language is unbecoming a Vaishnava.

 

We are all offenders in need of correction and lessons in humility are precious for a Vaishnava. I value criticism directed at myself, even when I dont agree with the content. I can see you are very knowledgable in the shastra and can be an asset in a discussion. I liked your selection of quotes as it was very much to the point.

 

Sometimes Vaishnavas speak in a very boistrous manner, like little boys proclaiming their great prowess in battle. Such childish talk should be forgiven, as life will have plenty of lessons for them in the future. Dandavat pranams.

[CCC]

A Kaula told me that Lord Shiva and Parvati, live in the trascendental world, but they came to the material world just to be the parents of Lord Ganesh. Also He said me that Lord Ganesh is an expansion of the Supreme Lord as Guru and Lord Ganesh incarnates in all planets of the universe as the son of god.

 

Also He told me that Lord Jesus is the same personality as Lord Ganesha, one is the elephant of God and the other the lamb of god, also both have the same symbol the cross, etc. He said me a lot of things that I don't remember right now.

 

Is there any scriptural reference that Lord Ganesh is an expansion of the Supreme Lord?