suchandra Posted October 31, 2007 Report Share Posted October 31, 2007 The ISKCON Lawbook (188 pages, 488 KB), see excerpt below, says, if a guru has become hopelessly entangled in sense gratification, he should be rejected. And, if a guru is engaged in sense gratification, violating one or more of the regulative principles, but there is hope that he can be rectified, then his disciples should not reject him. If there's the option that a guru becomes fallen, was he actually a guru from the begin with? It also says, "in addition to the writings of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada", where actually Prabhupada mentioned fallen gurus? 6.5 Guidelines<!--[if supportFields]>tc "6.5 Guidelines"<![endif]--><!--[if supportFields]><![endif]--> ISKCON LAWBOOK (188 pages, 488KB) 6.5.1 Rejection of a Fallen “Guru”<!--[if supportFields]>tc "6.5.1 Rejection of a Fallen Guru"<![endif]--><!--[if supportFields]><![endif]--> N.B.: The following laws are based on Sri Krishna-bhajanamrita by Sri Narahari Sarkara (an associate of Sri Caitanya), Bhakti-sandharbha by Srila Jiva Gosvami, and Jaiva-dharma by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, in addition to the writings of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. 6.5.1.1 When a Fallen Guru May Be Rejected<!--[if supportFields]>tc "6.5.1.1 When a Fallen Guru May Be Rejected"<![endif]--><!--[if supportFields]><![endif]--> If it is ascertained either by the admission of the guru, or by the testimony of irrefutably reliable witness(es) that the guru was fallen at the time of initiation, then the disciple has a legitimate reason to reject him and take re-initiation from a bona fide spiritual master. 6.5.1.2 When a Fallen Guru Must Be Rejected <!--[if supportFields]>tc "6.5.1.2 When a Fallen Guru Must Be Rejected"<![endif]--><!--[if supportFields]><![endif]-->missing? 6.5.1.2.1 Hopelessly Entangled in Sense Gratification<!--[if supportFields]>tc "6.5.1.2.1 Hopelessly Entangled in Sense Gratification"<![endif]--><!--[if supportFields]><![endif]--> If a guru has become hopelessly entangled in sense gratification, and it has been established by reliable testimony or by his own admissions that he has been regularly violating the regulative principles of Krishna consciousness, and if there is virtually no hope for his rectification, then the disciple should reject him and may accept re-initiation. 6.5.1.2.2 Takes on Demoniac Qualities<!--[if supportFields]>tc "6.5.1.2.2 Takes on Demoniac Qualities"<![endif]--><!--[if supportFields]><![endif]--> If the spiritual master takes on demoniac qualities and becomes inimical to ISKCON, he should be rejected and the disciple may take re-initiation. 6.5.1.3 When Not to Reject a Fallen Guru<!--[if supportFields]>tc "6.5.1.3 When Not to Reject a Fallen Guru"<![endif]--><!--[if supportFields]><![endif]--> If a guru is engaged in sense gratification, violating one or more of the regulative principles, but there is hope that he can be rectified, then his disciples should not reject him but should allow time for such rectification to take place, and they should take shelter of Srila Prabhupada and senior Vaisnavas as siksa-gurus. 6.5.1.4 When a Suspended Guru May Be Rejected<!--[if supportFields]>tc "6.5.1.4 When a Suspended Guru May Be Rejected"<![endif]--><!--[if supportFields]><![endif]--> A disciple of a suspended guru who has severely lost his faith in his spiritual master, or who has developed an offensive mentality towards him, and who is unable to regain his faith, even after hearing many instructions in the matter, may take permission from the spiritual master for release to accept a different initiating guru. The devotee should act in consultation with his local GBC representative. If the suspended guru withholds his permission, then the disciple may seek permission from the GBC Body. 6.5.1.5 “Guru Asraya” for Guidance<!--[if supportFields]>tc "6.5.1.5 Gurušraya for Guidance"<![endif]--><!--[if supportFields]><![endif]--> Devotees whose initiating spiritual master has fallen down should take guidance from the GBC papers entitled “Guru asraya” and “Questions and Answers About Reinitiation.” These papers also present ISKCON’s guidelines on the importance of taking shelter of a spiritual master and the role of siksa-guru. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted October 31, 2007 Report Share Posted October 31, 2007 Yes, If your GBC approved guru is just in a slump, then you shouldn't reject him. There are statistics to prove this. For instance before Bhagavan Prabhu absconded from ISKCON he went through a period where his Zone was making 300 devotees a year. The following year they only made 198 devotees, which I would definitely call a slump. The next year he was back to 305. Then he up and blooped. After twenty years one of his blooped disciples who calls here self Ms. Beau Jane-gals still grieves. She spends some time in county jails because she still chants a bit.(street sankirtan with the Gaudiya Math, no permit). Once in the holding cell we got her to dance (the Prabhupada two step). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted October 31, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2007 Yes, If your GBC approved guru is just in a slump, then you shouldn't reject him. There are statistics to prove this. For instance before Bhagavan Prabhu absconed from ISKCON he went through a period where his Zone was making 300 devotees a year. The following year they only made 198 devotees, which I would definitely call a slump. The next year he was back to 305. Then he up and blooped. After twenty years one of his blooped disciples who calls here self Ms. Beau Jane-gals still grieves. She spends some time in county jails because she still chants a bit.(street sankirtan with the Gaudiya Math, no permit). Once in the holding cell we got her to dance (the Prabhupada two step). Thanks for clarification, fortunately I'm not committed to the whims and caprices of an approved GBC guru, but can very well relate to the trauma of Bhaktin Ms.Beau Jane-gals who still grieves of having been cheated after so many years. Since surrendering one's life to a genuine representative of the Supreme Lord is the ultimate goal of every living being within this universe and to get cheated in this most important spiritual function surely creates a trauma which never can be overcome. Wonder if these gentlemen, ex-"gurus", harbored at sunny Alachua, have a slight foreboding of the karma looking forward to become effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murali_Mohan_das Posted October 31, 2007 Report Share Posted October 31, 2007 It's good to have our playful Beggar back!! Mr. Bojangles LyricsArtist(Band):Bob Dylan I knew a man Bojangles and he'd dance for you in worn out shoes Silver hair and ragged shirt and baggy pants, the old soft shoe He'd jump so high, he'd jump so high, then he'd lightly touched down I met him in a cell in New Orleans I was down and out He looked to me to be the eye of age as he spoke right out He talked of life, he talked of life, laughed, clicked his heels and said He said his name Bojangles and he danced a lick across the cell He grabbed his pants for a better stance, oh he jumped so high and he clicked up his heels He let go laugh, he let go laugh, shook back his clothes all around Mr. Bojangles, Mr. Bojangle, Mr. Bojangles, dance. He danced for those at minstrel shows and county fairs throughtout the South He spoke with tears of 15 years of how his dog and him travelled about The dog up and died, he up and died. After 20 years he still grieves He said "I dance now at every chance at honky-tonks for drinks and tips But most the time I spends behind these county bars, 'cause your see, I drinks a bit" He shook his head and as he shook his head, I heard someone ask him, "Please" -- "Please" ... Mr. Bojangles, Mr. Bojangles, Mr. Bojangles -- "Dance" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted October 31, 2007 Report Share Posted October 31, 2007 I knew a man who wore bangles and he'd dance for you in worn out shoes Braided hair and ragged choli and baggy sari, the old soft shoe He'd jump so high, he'd jump so high, then he'd lightly touched down I met him in a cell in Kokata I was blooped and out He looked to me to be the eye of age as he spoke right out He talked of life, he talked of Sahajiya bhajan, laughed, clicked his heels and said He said his name Old Karatalas and he danced a lick across the cell He grabbed his underpants for a better stance, oh he jumped so high and he clicked up his heels He let go laugh, he let go laugh, shook back his clothes all around Prabhu Karatals, Prabhu Karatals, Prabhu Karatals, dance. He danced for those at Pandal Programs and county fairs throughtout South India He spoke with tears of 15 years of how his Sahajiya guru and him travelled about The guru up and blooped, he up and blooped. After 20 years he still grieves He said "I dance now at every chance at mandir-tonks for lasi-drinks and tips But most the time I spends behind these Bangala county bars, 'cause you see, I chants a bit weird" He shook his head and as he shook his head (like Narottama), I heard someone ask him, "Please" -- "Please" ... Mr. Karatalas, Mr. Karatalas, Mr. Karatalas -- "Dance" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murali_Mohan_das Posted October 31, 2007 Report Share Posted October 31, 2007 Stop!! My stomach hurts too much from laughing! I knew a man who wore bangles and he'd dance for you in worn out shoesBraided hair and ragged choli and baggy sari, the old soft shoe He'd jump so high, he'd jump so high, then he'd lightly touched down I met him in a cell in Kokata I was blooped and out He looked to me to be the eye of age as he spoke right out He talked of life, he talked of Sahajiya bhajan, laughed, clicked his heels and said He said his name Old Karatalas and he danced a lick across the cell He grabbed his underpants for a better stance, oh he jumped so high and he clicked up his heels He let go laugh, he let go laugh, shook back his clothes all around Prabhu Karatals, Prabhu Karatals, Prabhu Karatals, dance. He danced for those at Pandal Programs and county fairs throughtout South India He spoke with tears of 15 years of how his Sahajiya guru and him travelled about The guru up and blooped, he up and blooped. After 20 years he still grieves He said "I dance now at every chance at mandir-tonks for lasi-drinks and tips But most the time I spends behind these Bangala county bars, 'cause you see, I chants a bit weird" He shook his head and as he shook his head (like Narottama), I heard someone ask him, "Please" -- "Please" ... Mr. Karatalas, Mr. Karatalas, Mr. Karatalas -- "Dance" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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