Does Initiation Make the Maha-Mantra Work?

[theist]

 

Here is a very instructive narration from the pastimes of Mahaprabhu that exemplify how simple and practical initiation into Hari-nama can be.

Please note that Srila Prabhupada refers to the chanting of Hare Krishna into the ears of the Buddhist spiritual master by HIS DISCIPLES after hearing instructions from Mahaprabhu as INITIATION.

 

 

 

 

This example is really what the Sankirtan movement is all about.

It is very simple, sublime and effective.

 

Great example. "Simple, sublime and effective."

[Murali_Mohan_das]

So, given the recent posts in this thread, is it safe to say that folks who agonize over whether their initiation from a subsequently "fallen" ISKCON guru are missing the point?

 

Why torment oneself over a formality, eh?

[theist]

 

So, given the recent posts in this thread, is it safe to say that folks who agonize over whether their initiation from a subsequently "fallen" ISKCON guru are missing the point?

 

Why torment oneself over a formality, eh?

 

Interesting question. I would think it would depend on the current circumstance and relationship you have with that person. In this case you are speaking of ecclesiastical gurus. Not just Iskcon BTW a one temple matha can have the guru appointed and be just as ecclesiastical as a big organization like Iskcon.

 

If one presently realizes that accepting an ecclesiatical guru was a mistake then of course they should get out of it. Afterall it is not an eternal relationship.If someone you thought was on the platform of eternity and then you find out you were cheated (by yourself as well) then there is no eternal obligation to remain.

 

But as you say "agonizing" over it is pointless. You may as well sit in your room and flog yourself with a chain while you are at it. Just correct the situation and move on down the Krsna conscious path taking shelter of the Lord in the heart and chalk it up to experience.

[Kulapavana]

 

So, given the recent posts in this thread, is it safe to say that folks who agonize over whether their initiation from a subsequently "fallen" ISKCON guru are missing the point?

 

Why torment oneself over a formality, eh?

 

I know a lot of devotees who received initiation (sometimes several initiations!) from a subsequently "fallen" ISKCON guru and very, very few of them "agonize" over whether their initiation was "valid" or not.

 

I know quite a few devotees who like myself, never took "re-initiation" from anyone, considering such re-initiation to be completely bogus, and who continue their devotional lives without much fuss. Others left the movement because they felt cheated not just by their former guru who pretended to be someone he was not, but by the entire SYSTEM and DOCTRINE that made such cheating possible by divorcing reality from what was preached about the guru-tattva in general.

 

Very few devotees I know (if any) saw their initiation as a mere formality - for most of them it was the most important day of their life. Just like a wedding day for a woman. Except they knew (or at least most of them did) that they were married to Krsna, and NOT the particular guru who was REPRESENTING Him in this ceremony.

 

Please dont cheapen this SAMSKARA.

[Guruvani]

 

So, given the recent posts in this thread, is it safe to say that folks who agonize over whether their initiation from a subsequently "fallen" ISKCON guru are missing the point?

 

Why torment oneself over a formality, eh?

Well, there are several ISKCON gurus who certainly have not shown any effort to take sannyasa again even though their sannyasa guru has fallen down.

 

Sivarama Swami, Indradyumna Swami and probably several more ISKCON gurus took sannyasa and their sannyasa guru fell down.

 

So, at least in ISKCON, the idea that one must take re-initiation if a guru falls down does not seem to be much of an issue.

 

As far as I can see it mainly depends on the needs of the disciple of the fallen guru.

If they feel a need for re-initiation then maybe they should do that.

If they don't feel a need then I don't see the harm because most of the fallen gurus and fallen sannyasis of ISKCON are still Vaishnavas as far as I know but in another ashram.

 

As long as the fallen guru doesn't become a demon anti-Krishna, then I don't think that re-initiation is really that important.

 

But, that is just the opinion of a very insignificant fool.

[Alex J]

 

My mind has been so much more peaceful since I decided that only one defintion of diksa would have any relevance for me and that is the one given by Jiva Gosvami and often quoted by Srila Prabhupada.

Dear theist Prabhu,

 

Thank you for your response. I resonate with what you've written above. I've had a somewhat similar experience. The more I explore and consider Srila Prabhupada's statements related to this aspect of the diksa process, wich I see as the essential aspect of the diksa process, the more peaceful my mind feels. It just makes sense.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

[sanatan]

 

Thanks for the nice post and compilitions of quotes Alex. We hear the word initiation and diksa used in various ways with the maha mantra getting ixed up with some gayatri mantra. My mind has been so much more peaceful since I decided that only one defintion of diksa would have any relevance for me and that is the one given by Jiva Gosvami and often quoted by Srila Prabhupada.

 

Hare Krsna

 

Alex's compilation is a very good and informative summary...many thanks for posting it, Alex.

 

If no formal diksha is required, per Alex's summation I've surely been "initiated" already, but my life is no testament to that.

 

What I'm hearing here and what I've always heard preached and am still hearing preached from ISKCON-affiliated sources and gurus are different stories.

 

The ISKCON version, the way I clearly understand it it, is that formal diksha from a living guru is absolutely essential.

 

But there are highly respectable, brahminical devotees here who present convincing evidence to the contrary.

 

I'm just more confused now.

[Guruvani]

So, the answer to the question "does initiation make the Maha-mantra work", the answer according to the evidence in shastra is YES.

 

But, as shown in the example of Mahaprabhu and the Buddhists, initiation is not a formality but a hearing of the Maha-mantra from someone who has heard it in the line of succession from Mahaprabhu and his acharyas.

 

The formal version of initiation into the Maha-mantra might have it's value, but the lessons of the shastra shows clearly that initiation is not limited to the pomp and ceremony that it has become associated with in certain institutions and formal organizations.

 

Hearing the Maha-mantra from someone connected to the Vaishnava sampradaya is actually initiation according to the example of Mahaprabhu, even if it is not all official and formal.

[theist]

 

Kulapavana: Very few devotees I know (if any) saw their initiation as a mere formality - for most of them it was the most important day of their life. Just like a wedding day for a woman. Except they knew (or at least most of them did) that they were married to Krsna, and NOT the particular guru who was REPRESENTING Him in this ceremony.

 

I would think you know the exceptions to the rule then. I don't believe for one second most were looking past their guru to Krsna. That would also be a more or less meaningless ritvik style initiation. They were accepting the guru as the their connection to Krsna.

 

The guru disciple relationship is real and not just a formality. The relationship of course is more than the ceremony. A genuine guru is Krsna's representative on earth and not just a empty figurehead. It is clear from Srila Prabhupada's teachings that one need only accept the conclusion and need not become a disciple of a particular person, he says so in so many words. Yet that doesn't preclude someone becoming a disciple of a particular person. When guru is real and disciple is real then that is a holy and sacred bond. It is just that Krsna is not limited to that avenue for revealing Himself to any searching soul.

 

One danger that comes as a backlash to a meaningless ecclesiatical system is that people will feel cheated and reject the idea of guru entirely. That should not ever happen. There is a difference between being cautious and discriminating in who we hear from and trust with our eternal lives and becoming a burnt out cynic who throws the baby out with the bath water.

 

We have to accept Krsna in whatever form He chooses to reveal Himself to us. Krsna as guru, Krsna as shastra, Krsna as the Holy Name, Krsna as divine service.

 

Because we are all different we will have different appreciations and attraction to Krsna in this form or that one. But when we analyse the situation we see that nobody is independent of the efforts of the past jiva-tattva level saints and gurus by whose grace we all have heard the Holy Name read the Holy Word know what is Divine service beyond mere philanthrophic welfare work. No one is outside or above the need to bow down before the acaryas present and past.

[theist]

 

Alex's compilation is a very good and informative summary...many thanks for posting it, Alex.

 

If no formal diksha is required, per Alex's summation I've surely been "initiated" already, but my life is no testament to that.

 

What I'm hearing here and what I've always heard preached and am still hearing preached from ISKCON-affiliated sources and gurus are different stories.

 

The ISKCON version, the way I clearly understand it it, is that formal diksha from a living guru is absolutely essential.

 

But there are highly respectable, brahminical devotees here who present convincing evidence to the contrary.

 

I'm just more confused now.

 

Sanatan,

Spend some more time hearing meditating and praying over those quotes from Srila Prabhupada free from all the static of this side or that side and it will all come clear... I am sure of this.

 

This whole "living guru" stuff is offensive to me. The obvious implication is that there is such a thing as a dead guru. Now there is an omymoron if there ever has been one.

[sanatan]

 

So, the answer to the question "does initiation make the Maha-mantra work", the answer according to the evidence in shastra is YES.

 

But, as shown in the example of Mahaprabhu.... Hearing the Maha-mantra from someone connected to the Vaishnava sampradaya is actually initiation according to the example of Mahaprabhu, even if it is not all official and formal.

 

Yep...that hits it.

 

 

 

...Because we are all different we will have different appreciations and attraction to Krsna in this form or that one. But when we analyse the situation we see that nobody is independent of the efforts of the past jiva-tattva level saints and gurus by whose grace we all have heard the Holy Name read the Holy Word know what is Divine service beyond mere philanthrophic welfare work. No one is outside or above the need to bow down before the acaryas present and past.

 

So does that.

 

 

Sanatan,

Spend some more time hearing meditating and praying over those quotes from Srila Prabhupada free from all the static of this side or that side and it will all come clear... I am sure of this.

 

This whole "living guru" stuff is offensive to me. The obvious implication is that there is such a thing as a dead guru. Now there is an omymoron if there ever has been one.

 

Theist, good advice. I have everything I need here at home, and my devotee friends and online association are great.

 

I'm just not attracted to the traditional ISKCON guru-disciple thing anymore.

 

I know there are people here who don't think much of him, but Tamal Krishna Maharaja served in that capacity in my life for many years, and now he's passed on, and I miss him.

 

Suiting up, grabbing a guru, and getting formally initiated seems empty now.

[Alex J]

Dear sanatan Prabhu,

Thank you very much for your post, and for your words of appreciation for what I wrote/compiled. What I've written/compiled below is kind of long.

In a nutshell, my understanding is that diksa is a process. I see the essential aspect of that process as the transfer of transcendental knowledge from the guru to the student. Like in the purport that Guruvani Prabhu shared, wherein Srila Prabhupada states: "Initiation means receiving the pure knowledge of spiritual consciousness".

My understanding that the giving of mantras, and Hari-nama, and the instructions on how to chant them, as well as all kinds of other knowledge about transcendence, can all be seen as being a part of that transfer of transcendental knowledge from guru to student.

My understanding is that the initiation ceremony itself is not diksa, though the ceremony is meant to be an acknowledgement that the diksa process has begun.

I did participate in an initiation ceremony within the ISKCON organization in 2000. That ceremony was performed by a living person. I don't consider the day of that ceremony to have been the moment that I connected to the parampara.

In a previous post Kulapavana Prabhu had written "Please dont cheapen this SAMSKARA." If anything, I experienced my own participation in the initiation ceremony as cheapening the samskara.

I've been in contact with Krsna Consciousness since about 1995/1996. I'm not convinced that I've yet been initiated in the essential sense of "divya divya jnanam ksapayati iti diksa", though I think that in a very real sense the diksa process has begun for me, and is alive inside me.

I do receive transcendental knowledge through the books that I read and the audio that I listen to, though I'm not sure that at this point in my life that knowledge can be truly considered as diksa. I think it may well be still be siksa at this point. Still, the diksa process itself has begun for me, and I think it began for me in the mid-nineties, when I first came in contact with the philosophy of Krsna Consciousness.

When you begin to boil milk, you might say "I'm boiling the milk" even though the milk hasn't yet reached the boiling point. And in a sense that statement is true. The milk is in the process of boiling, in the sense that the temperature is rising, and getting closer and closer to the boiling point, though the milk itself is not yet at the boiling point.

Then, at a certain point in the boiling process, the boiling temperature is reached, and then the milk is actually boiling. It's no longer approaching the boiling point, the milk is now actually boiling in the full sense of the term.

I think it may be similar with diksa. The diksa process may have begun for me, though the transfer of transcendental knowledge might still be such that it's best described by the word siksa.

Then, at a certain point that knowledge may be received not only through the external senses, the eyes, the ears, but also be received and realized in the heart of the soul, divya jnana hrde prokoshito. I think that the distinction between jnana (knowledge) and vijnana (realized knowledge) may be relevant here. For example, in the quote from Audarya-lila Prabhu, he states:

 

"

Since diksha is the transmission of divya jnana, or realized knowledge - and that is constantly unfolding - one could say that Diksha continues on forever.

"

 

When one is boiling milk, and if the heat is constant, then that milk will continue boiling even after the boiling point has been reached. There may be a parallel here to the realization of transcendental knowledge that takes places within the heart of the soul of the student. My understanding is that diksa is ongoing, just like I can boil milk for an extended period time. Still, there is the moment that I first put the pot of milk on the heating element, and there is the moment at which the boiling point of the milk is finally reached. So it may be that even though the process of diksa is ongoing, there may well be a demarcation between the start of the process and the moment when diksa can truly be said to have already taken place, and then be continuing to deepen.

 

I find this topic fascinating and enlivening. At the end of this post I'd like to include a short lecture from Srila Prabhupada, which I read for the first time this October, and which has grown on me. The lecture is from from April 1^st, 1977, in Bombay. Below that lecture, I'd also like to include some excerpts from an email exchange that I had with a friend between July 14^th and 17^th, 2007, and which I find interesting in this context. I appreciate his perspective on the issue.

 

Thank you for reading what I wanted to share.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

 

<hr>

 

Tapo divyam [sB 5.5.1]. Divyam means we are combination of matter and spirit. That spirit is divya, transcendental. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakrtim para [bg. 7.5]. That is para prakrti, superior. If there is the superior identity... And for understanding that superior identity we require superior knowledge, not ordinary knowledge. Divya-jnana hrde prakasito. So this is the duty of the guru, to awaken that divya-jnana. Divya-jnana. And because guru enlightens that divya-jnana, he is worshiped. That is required. The modern... Modern or always; this is maya. That divya-jnana is never, I mean to say, manifested. They are kept in the darkness of adivya-jnana. Adivya-jnana means "I am this body.I am Indian," "I am American,I am Hindu,I am Muslim," this is adivya-jnana. Dehatma-buddhih. Yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri. I am not this body.

 

So the beginning of divya-jnana is there when we try to understand that "I am not this body. I am superior element, I am spirit soul. This is inferior. So why should I remain in this inferior knowledge?" We should not remain in the inferior... Inferior knowledge means darkness. Tamasi ma. The Vedic injunction is, "Don't remain in the inferior knowledge." Jyotir gamah. "Come to the superior knowledge." So to worship guru means because he gives us superior knowledge. Not this knowledge -- how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex life and defend. Generally, the political leaders, social leaders, they give this knowledge -- how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex, how to defend. A guru has no business with these things. He is divya-jnana, superior knowledge. That is required. This human form of life is an opportunity to awaken that divya-jnana hrde prakasito. And if he's kept in darkness about that divya-jnana, simply if he is trained up how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex and to defend, then life will be lost. That is a great loss. Mrtyu-samsara-vartmani. Aprapya mam nivartante mrtyu-samsara-vartmani [bg. 9.3]. Very risky life if we do not awaken our divya-jnana. We should always remember this. Very risky life -- once again thrown into the waves of birth and death, we do not know where I am going. Very serious. This Krsna consciousness is divya-jnana. It is not ordinary knowledge. Everyone should try to understand this divya-jnana. Daivim prakrtim asritam. Therefore one who is interested in this divya-jnana, he is called daivim prakrtim asritam. From daivi, divya comes, the Sanskrit word. Sanskrit word, from daivi, divya, adjective.

 

So mahatmanas tu mam partha daivim prakrtim asritah [bg. 9.13]. One who has taken to this divya-jnana process, he is mahatma. Mahatma is not made by stamping for receiving knowledge how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex. That is not the definition in the sastras. Sa mahatma su-durlabhah.

 

bahunam janmanam ante

jnanavan mam prapadyante

vasudevah sarvam iti

sa mahatma...

 

[bg. 7.19]

 

One who has got this divya-jnana, vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma, that is mahatma. But that is very, very rare. Otherwise, mahatma like me, they are loitering in the street. That is. So you should always remember this word, divya-jnana hrde prakasito. And because the spiritual master enlightens the divya-jnana, one feels obliged to him. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado yasya prasadan na gatih kuto 'pi. So this guru-puja essential. As the Deity worship essential... It is not cheap adoration. It is the process of enlightening the divya-jnana.

 

Thank you very much.

 

<hr>

 

Dhira Govinda dasa: (...) Suppose we hear from Srila Prabhupada, and based on this hearing we chant sixteen rounds per day, rise early, study his books, participate in Hari Nam kirtan and bhajan, etc. So, someone in such a situation might claim "I am receiving transcendental knowledge from Srila Prabhupada, and this is the essence of initiation, so I am initiated by Srila Prabhupada." I think, though, that this would be a shallow understanding, or a misunderstanding, of the process. (...)

 

My understanding is that the person described in the paragraph above is receiving siksa from Srila Prabhupada. (...) It is knowledge received through the external senses, though not the essential divya-jnana, spiritual knowledge received in the heart of the soul, as Lord Brahma was initiated by Sri Krsna- tene brahma hrda ya adi-kavaye, or as described in the prayers to the spiritual master, divya jnan hrde prokoshito. So, as we receive siksa and follow the instructions and absorb the knowledge, then it becomes diksa, with divya-jnana received at the soul level, as the essence.

 

As we've discussed many times, initiation is a process. We connect with this process from the first time we encounter Srila Prabhupada's books, or hear the Maha Mantra in the line of the authentic parampara, etc. So it's a process, and at some point in the process we may say that initiation has actually taken place, just like we may say "The milk is boiling," though actually it's in the process of boiling. Then at some particular point the milk is actually at the boiling point, and that in itself can also be seen as just the beginning of the boiling process. (...)

 

Transcendentally, it appears to me, there is no difference between siksa and diksa. However, from the perspective of the conditioned soul encountering the mercy of Krsna and guru, it seems that, in the general course of the process of initiation, siksa comes first, and develops into diksa. (...)

 

Alex: Something that's been on my mind for years is why did Srila Prabhupada conduct initiation ceremonies after only 6 months of chanting and following the 4 regs? This seems to me like such a short time. Are we to assume that most people who participated in these ceremonies after six months or so were initiated at this deeper level that you refer to?

 

I have been in contact with Krsna Consciousness for 11 years now, and not that I am the yardstick by which others should be judged, but I feel like I am at that first level you describe. I have read some of Srila Prabhupada's books, heard some lectures, and I'm endeavoring to put things into practice, and that's where I'm at, where I want to be. I haven't had any mystical experience where knowledge is revealed in my heart. The first level that you describe, which you call siksa, that's what I want. I don't feel ready for the other thing. I'm full of doubts, concerns, questions, etc. I don't want to pretend otherwise. I want the shallow thing. I like the shallow thing.

 

Dhira Govinda dasa: I appreciate your personal sharing. For myself, I could replace "11 years" with "27 years", and express much the same as you have. Certainly I couldn't say that by adherence to Srila Prabhupada's siksa, the essence of divya-jnana has congealed in my heart and thus I am receiving diksa in the true sense. My adherence is sporadic and shallow. For myself I wouldn't say that I haven't had any mystical experience, or knowledge revealed in my heart. Whatever my lack of qualifications and sincerity, I believe that something, some spark, has landed deeply, due to the mercy of Srila Prabhupada and Krsna. Otherwise I don't think I'd be able to continue steadily reading Srila Prabhupada's books and chanting sixteen rounds per day, however inattentively that may be. It seems to me that the siksa and diksa processes work spontaneously, interactively, not necessarily linearly, though the general process is that siksa, following instructions, leads to diksa, genuine divya-jnana revealed and received at the level of the soul.

 

The question raised is the point at which enough genuine divya-jnana, real diksa, is present so as to qualify for a formal initiation ceremony. The principles involving the distinctions and relationship between siksa and diksa are philosophical. The issue of what constitutes the precise "boiling point" and therefore the point at which formal initiation is appropriate, may be more managerial in nature. With that in mind, along with an understanding of the distinction between following and imitating, we might understand that Srila Prabhupada may have handled some situations in a particular way, though he may expect and want us to handle it in a different way.

 

In this context it is imperative that we grasp underlying principles to be able to maturely apply them according to time and circumstance. Of course, in stating this we also want to be aware of the danger of using the phrase "time and circumstance" as a weak and false justification for whimsically avoiding Srila Prabhupada's instructions and example. So, even within Srila Prabhupada's manifest pastimes he managed things in different ways at different times. For example, his instructions about Deity worship tended to be different in 1967 compared to 1976. Or, at some point in his movement's history he fairly liberally gave sannyas, and at another point he ceased to do this.

 

My general understanding is that Srila Prabhupada did some things to jump start the Krsna consciousness movement. For example, consider the emphasis on direct preaching. Surely Srila Prabhupada wants such direct preaching, in the form of kirtan and book distribution, to always be an integral and vital part of his movement. At the same time, he wants his followers to dedicate their efforts to creating structures- call it varnasrama, in whatever form that may take- to facilitate as many people as possible to be able to integrate their lives in a Krsna conscious lifestyle, or at least a lifestyle that moves towards Krsna consciousness. Through 1977 Srila Prabhupada wrote and spoke much about such structures, though his prime focus was on establishing temples, harinam sankirtan, book distribution, etc., to jump start the movement, so to speak. His expectation was that his followers would provide furnishings for the house he built, continually enriching his movement.

 

So, I believe that our management of what would constitute the "boiling point" with regards to appropriateness of the official initiation ceremony, would likely be far more conservative than Srila Prabhupada's. (...)

 

I am intrigued to further understand these discussions, about divya-jnana, siksa, diksa, and initiation, in the framework of Srila Prabhupada's purport below:

 

SB 4:12:19- Purport- "There are different levels of acquired knowledge- direct knowledge, knowledge received from authorities, transcendental knowledge, knowledge beyond the senses, and finally spiritual knowledge. When one surpasses the stage of acquiring knowledge by the descending process, he is immediately situated on the transcendental platform. Dhruva Maharaja, being liberated from the material concept of life, was situated in transcendental knowledge and could perceive the presence of a transcendental airplane which was as brilliant as the full moonlight. This is not possible in the stages of direct or indirect perception of knowledge. Such knowledge is a special favor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One can, however, rise to this platform of knowledge by the gradual process of advancing in devotional service, or Krsna consciousness."

(...)

[AncientMariner]

 

"The chanting of Hare Krsna is our main business, that is real initiation. And as you are all following my instruction, in that matter, the initiator is already there." (SP Letter to Tamal Krsna, 19/8/68)

 

Prabhuupada didn't mean what he said in these types of quotations. It is all just a preaching device that he used to trick his ignorant western disciples.

[theist]

 

Theist, good advice. I have everything I need here at home, and my devotee friends and online association are great.

 

And most importantly Caitya guru in your heart. He who has been next to you and fused to you (more correctly you to Him) since eternity and desires to reveal Himself to you.

 

He is right with you even now as you read this post just waiting for you to turn inward to Him for all these answers. It is Krsna who reveals guru to the aspirant and no one else. This is why acaryas don't appoint the next acarya, they know it is Krsna's pleasure to do so and they know he will do it. He will give you the proper understanding of those pertinent quotes from Srila Prabhupada.

 

For matha mgt.they may make some arrangement but not when it comes to saying who is self effulgent representative of Krsna.

I have asked this many times. Why is it that we don't tell new people to ask Krsna directly to guide them to their guru?

 

Could it be we don't really believe Krsna is personally there in our heart and in the hearts of all? Or do we believe He is there but doesn't care enough to direct this soul to His representative and to Himself even though He tells us in the Gita that He is directing the wanderings of all conditioned souls?

 

"By the grace of KRSNA one gets guru and by the grace of guru one gets Krsna."

It's all in that statement by Srila Prabhupada.

[Guruvani]

In the verse from CC quoted above it says:

 

 

One point to note in this regard is that the spiritual master of the Buddhists did not initiate his disciples. Rather, his disciples were initiated by Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and they in turn were able to initiate their so-called spiritual master. This is the paramparā system.

Srila Prabhupada refers to the chanting of Hare Krishna into the ear of the Buddhist master by his disciples as initiation.

However, even though there was no exchange of beads chanted on by the guru, no making of vows, no committing to a certain number of rounds a day, Srila Prabhupada refers to the simple act of the Buddhist disciples as initiation of the spiritual master.

 

What is also interesting in this purport is that this "initiation" of the Buddhist master was not accredited to a single person but to a group of disciples.

The Buddhist master was initiated by a group of disciples who had just seconds before been converted to Vaishnavism.

 

So, this example and this explanation of Srila Prabhupada breaks all kinds of stereotypes and notions about what is diksha.

 

I love this pastime of Mahaprabhu because the purport and the inner meaning of the pastime has such revolutionary and radical implications regarding the meaning and the process of diksha.

[Alex J]

Dear Prabhus,

 

It does seem that when Srila Prabhupada uses words like "initiation" or "initiated", he sometimes appears to be referring to the essence of the process of diksa, along the lines of "divya jnanam ksapayati iti diksa", at other times Srila Prabhupada appears to be making reference to the initiation ceremony itself, when using words like "initiation" or "initiated".

 

For example, in the purport to Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya-lila, verse 15.111, Srila Prabhupada seems to use the word "initiated" in both of these ways, all within the same purport.

 

Srila Prabhupada seems to me to be referring to the essence of the process, to the transmission of divya-jnana from the guru to the heart of the student, when he writes:

 

 

 

 

"

An advanced devotee should respect a person who has been initiated by a bona fide spiritual master and who is situated on the transcendental platform...

"

 

 

In the same purport, Srila Prabhupada also writes:

 

 

"

Whether a Vaisnava is properly initiated or not is not a subject for consideration. One may be initiated and yet contaminated by the Mayavada philosophy...

"

 

 

This second use of the word "initiated" seems to me to refer to a person who has undergone the formalities of the initiation ceremony, but who has perhaps not yet undergone the internal transformation of "divya jnana hrde prokoshito".

 

In September of 2006, I read some posts by Ksamabuddhi Prabhu on the IRM forum, as well as on bhaktiforums.com, which I appreciated. I'm mentioning where I saw these post for the purpose of providing complete information. I'm not implying that a person should be for or against the IRM group, in order to find value in Ksamabuddhi Prabhu's words. I'm simply citing where I found the information.

 

Below are some excerpts from Ksamabuddhi Prabhu's post to the IRM forum:

 

 

 

 

Personally, I find the formal, official diksha to be somewhat of puzzle, if you compare it to the scriptural definition of diksha as being the transmission of spiritual knowledge

.

 

 

(...)

 

 

The real diksha is the transformation that takes place in the heart of a devotee when he receives spiritual knowledge from a realized soul.

 

 

The formal diksha should correspond to that spiritual process.

 

Unfortunately, formal diksha as promoted by the GBC ignores the true internal diksha and imposes an artificial form of diksha that is merely an external ritual and a social event.

 

The following are some excerpts from a post, or possibly from more than one post, which Ksamabuddhi Prabhu shared on bhaktiforums.com, and which I saved:

 

 

Sometimes we think of diksha as the bhakti lata bija, but in this reference from the books of Srila Prabhupada we see that actually it is the siksha which is the source of the bhakti lata bija.

 

 

Madhya 19.152 purport:

"Bhakti-lata-bija means 'the seed of devotional service.' Everything has an original cause, or seed. For any idea, program, plan or device, there is first of all the contemplation of the plan, and that is called bija, or the seed. The methods, rules and regulations by which one is perfectly trained in devotional service constitute the bhakti-lata-bija, or seed of devotional service. This bhakti-lata-bija is received from the spiritual master by the grace of Krsna."

 

It's about the methods, the rules and regs., not exactly formal initiation. Srila Prabhupada equates the bija with "contemplation of the plan".

 

"This bhakti-lata-bija is received when one is initiated by the bona fide spiritual master. After receiving the spiritual master's mercy, one must repeat his instructions, and this is called sravana--kirtana-hearing and chanting."

 

To me it looks like the "contemplation of the plan" (the bija) is most usually received before formal initiation.

Formal initiation usually comes some time after one accepts the "The methods, rules and regulations by which one is perfectly trained in devotional service".

(...)

The "contemplation of the plan" seems to be on the order of:

(1) Understanding the goal and purpose of life.

(2) Understanding the process by which to attain the goal.

(3) Making a decision to accept the process and pursue the goal.

??

thus, the bhakti-lata-bija is about understanding, acceptance and action, not about formal ceremonies and social functions.

just my humble opinion..........

(...)

Personally, I see the FORMAL diksha process as somewhat of a certificate that one has been officially accepted into the sampradaya. It is a traditional way of perpetuating the parampara in a formal way and to give some social status to the initiate. It's like a diploma or a degree in philosophy. It had more relevance and importance in India due to the traditions and culture there. In western religious thought, one does not need any particular sanction or certification for becoming devoted to God. It's an innate right and natural instict for humans to be religious minded.

Formal diksha may not be necessary to actually become God conscious. It's just a formal statement by the acharya that one is officially being accepted into the sampradaya with the potential to continue the sampradaya if necessity dictates.

 

 

When I first read Kshamabuddhi Prabhu's posts, I began to consider the idea that the bhakti-lata-bija may be received primarily through the process of receiving transcendental knowledge, divya-jnana.

 

In turn, these posts reminded me of something that Suresvara Prabhu wrote in an article entitled "Ne'er A Pretender Nor A Proxy Be":

 

 

"

If the 25 years since Prabhupada's passing has taught me anything about my own relationship with His Divine Grace, it is this: that my core identity is not so much as his 'initiated disciple' as it is his 'instructed follower'; because 'He lives forever by his divine instructions, and the follower lives with him.'

"

 

 

To me, the above quote highlights that the experience of the guru-disciple relationship, and the experience of the diksa process itself, primarily rests on and is nourished by the transfer of transcendental knowledge from teacher to the heart of the student, rather than the formalities of the initiation ceremony.

 

Thank you for reading what I wanted to share.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

[suchandra]

 

Thank you for reading what I wanted to share.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

Indeed, Vaishnavas who want to share some realization are getting rare.

Additionaly since Vaishnavism is being gradually transferred, pushed back, into 3rd world countries and not any more welcome by Western governments who are greatly worried to make sure of keeping their citiziens in total darkness, Vaishnavas are being turned into an endangered species.

Prabhupadas intention was surely to make clear statements in his books and not leave as confused that there could many different meanings.

If things still seem to be unclear I put them on a waiting list and have the confidence that one day the answer will be revealed. In this age of speedy e-mail technology we are easily manipulated and brainwashed to have all the details right now on our desk. Somehow bhakti-yoga doesnt work like that.

 

NEW VIDEO - VEDIC KNOWLEDGE

http://www.gitagita.com/en/others/015.html

[Murali_Mohan_das]

To run with the milk-boiling analogy a bit...

 

Doesn't milk (or water) boil at a lower temperature at higher altitudes?

 

If so, if one wants to make rapid spiritual advancement, one should move to Denver!!

 

[sanatan]

Prabhus,

 

This has been a good thread, I've had some realizations.

 

We've all received initiation into the Names and the lineage of Caitanya Mahaprabhu in our own way, "official" or not; as initiates, we are now bearers and messengers of the Names and a great spiritual tradition, individually and collectively.

 

I've never considered myself a "real" devotee, perhaps I should consider seriously the idea that I am a real devotee and have a place in the Gaudiya-sampradaya, with the attendant responsibilities.

[Shakti-Fan]

Hilo, Hawaii: January 13, 2003

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

http://www.purebhakti.com/lectures/lecture20030113a.shtml

 

diksa-purascarya-vidhi apeksa na kare

jihva-sparse a-candala sabare uddhare

["One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus, even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered."]

The holy name is sufficient. The holy name is very powerful and can fulfill all desires. The name will even give vraja-prema. What, then, is the need of taking initiation? The paper has quoted my statement, along with the statement of Prapujya-carana Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja and Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja; so I want to reconcile all statements.

It is true that diksa-purascarya (initiation and the purificatory activities performed before initiation) is not needed in all circumstances; but we should know something about the actual meaning of this verse. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada has written a book of rules and regulations in deity worship called Arcana Dipika, and there he has explained that harinama is bhagavata-svarupa, the actual form of Krsna and Radha, and for this reason it is stated in Sri Siksastakam, "Param vijayate sri krsna-sankirtana." By chanting and remembering Krsna's names, all kinds of perfection — like vraja-prema and even radha-dasya (becoming a maid servant of Srimati Radhika) — can be attained. In the first stage, however, when a devotee is uttering the holy name he is full with many aparadhas, and also anarthas such as laya (sleep), viksepa (distraction), apratipatti (indifference or disinterest in spiritual topics), and so on. It is guaranteed that such a person cannot utter the pure name. Rather, his chanting will be nama-aparadha. Chanting the pure name is only possible after the diksa-samskara.

[theist]

 

Prabhus,

 

This has been a good thread, I've had some realizations.

 

We've all received initiation into the Names and the lineage of Caitanya Mahaprabhu in our own way, "official" or not; as initiates, we are now bearers and messengers of the Names and a great spiritual tradition, individually and collectively.

 

I've never considered myself a "real" devotee, perhaps I should consider seriously the idea that I am a real devotee and have a place in the Gaudiya-sampradaya, with the attendant responsibilities.

sanatan It is wonderful that your mind is cleared over this issue. As my nature I would question one thing. If you experience was like mine you were made to feel "not a real devotee" by those would had a formal initiation certificate and you bought into thinking they were the real devotees because of that certificate.

 

Now you have seen through that which is great. It is the shallowest level of thinking and it is something like belonging to some school club or social group. However if we stick to the idea of initiation or diksa being an ongoing process maybe it would be better if we always consider ourselves less then a real devotee of Krsna. Let's save the designation of REAL devotee for the pure bhaktas. It is safer to always assume the lower position. We could even say that there is really no need for us to ever call ourselves real devotees for when we do come to that point in reality (and we will) we will consider ourselves lower than the straw in the street anyway.

 

Let others call themselves real devotees of Krsna. They may or may not be but that is their business. We must always keep ourselves as the potential and aspiring objects of the real devotees mercy and someone who is already a real devotee is not so needy of that mercy.

 

As far as considering yourself in the Gaudiya Sampradaya with responsibilities that is surely already a fact. You are absorbing the conclusions of that line of teaching and we all have responsibilities to preserve and advance this knowledge within human society.

 

Just some thoughts.

[mahak]

The proof that one is a devotee is that (s)he really feels like devotion is severely lacking.

 

However, a trait of Srila Prabhupada, rarely discussed, is his fearlessness in pushing this movement forward. This means the feeling of lack of devotion is put aside and acceptance of ones own advancement as irrevokable fact takes place.

 

For those who read kipu'ka, the unfinished novel, the ending has the folks discovering who is the successor to their preceptiors. Turned out to be them, if not them, then who?

 

If not us, then who? Thats what this song is all about.

 

All, c-1993-mahaksadasa

one sure way to be pleasing to your teacher

learn all the lessons, then pass them along

bring your light into the darkest of caverns

all who have eyes will see what is going on

 

 

the greatest musician taught you to play

all who have voices will want to sing along

the greatest of scholars gave you the words

all who have ears will surely hear your song

 

 

after hearing philosophy and putting it to the test

all who have feeling will win this holy war

when the gift of pure love is placed at one's disposal

all who have heart will never cry any more

 

 

if you ploclaim and sing the ballad of your master

all who have minds will know what this life is for

don't hold back now, not after what you have been given

all of the world is needy and at your front door

 

 

mahaksadasa

[sanatan]

 

ffice:smarttags" />January 13, 2003

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja....

In the first stage, however, when a devotee is uttering the holy name he is full with many aparadhas, and also anarthas such as laya (sleep), viksepa (distraction), apratipatti (indifference or disinterest in spiritual topics), and so on. It is guaranteed that such a person cannot utter the pure name.

These are all generally taken for granted as facts of spiritual life.

Rather, his chanting will be nama-aparadha. Chanting the pure name is only possible after the diksa-samskara.

This clearly states that the lights come on only after a ceremony.

 

It's very obvious that for some, the lights were always on, and the ceremony was a formality.

It's also obvious that for others, the lights never come on, ceremonies or not.

Theist: "real devotee" was not the best choice of words, but you picked up on the intent anyway..."real devotee" in the context of my post was along the lines of "full member" rather than that of uttama-bhakta.

My objective experience never has been a lack of acceptance by devotees, though I did get told many times that one should come to the point of being formally initiated.

More the intensely self-kicking nature at work, I think.

 

The proof that one is a devotee is that (s)he really feels like devotion is severely lacking.

However, a trait of Srila Prabhupada, rarely discussed, is his fearlessness in pushing this movement forward. This means the feeling of lack of devotion is put aside and acceptance of ones own advancement as irrevokable fact takes place.

...mahaksadasa

Yeh, we can’t sit back and think we’ve gotten absolutely nowhere, and use that as an excuse for spiritual inactivity.

Very nice song, mahak, especially the last verse.

Again, Prabhus, thank you for the kind words.

[Alex J]

 

It's very obvious that for some, the lights were always on, and the ceremony was a formality.

It's also obvious that for others, the lights never come on, ceremonies or not.

Dear Prabhus,

 

I appreciate what sanatan Prabhu expresses above.

 

When I thought of the initiation ceremony, I often thought of it as a samskara. I understood "samskara" primarily as an event, as something like a rite of passage, or a sacrament. Perhaps this is simply one valid understanding of the term.

 

In September of 2006, I came across a transcript of a lecture that Srila Prabhupada gave on Lord Ramacandra's Appearance Day, in Hawaii, on March 27^th, 1969. I found it interesting to consider the following three excerpts from that lecture:

 

"

Sudra means one who has no training. Sudra has no samskara. Samskara means training.

"

 

 

(...)

 

 

"

That was the system. There was no school fee. There was no problem how to send a boy to the school. Samskara. Now he's trained up.

"

 

 

(...)

 

 

"

And formerly also, by his birth, everyone was considered sudra, but there was training, Samskara. At the present moment, there is no samskara, there is no training. The training is only for earning livelihood. No other training.

"

 

 

Interestingly, in the three instances above, Srila Prabhupada speaks of samskara in the context of "training". So perhaps my previously seeing samskara as primarily an event may have been an incomplete understanding of the term.

 

The three lecture excerpts above may potentially also be relevant to those of us seeking to better understand the diksa-samskara. Perhaps the diksa-samskara is more than simply the initiation ceremony. The diksa-samskara may also be the ongoing training process itself. Divya jnanam ksapayati iti diksa.

 

I've also understood the word "samskara" as an impression on the consciousness of the person who is undergoing the samskara experience. An event can imprint on consciousness, but so can a process. Training itself could be seen as an ongoing process of imprinting on the consciousness of the student.

 

For example in a lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.21, given in Honolulu, on May 21^st, 1976, Srila Prabhupada states:

 

 

"

Dvija means twice-born. First-born by the father and mother, and the next birth is dvijah, means by the father, spiritual master, and the mother, Vedic knowledge. This is called second birth. Samskarad bhaved dvijah. Samkara means purificatory process.

"

 

 

A purificatory process can be ongoing, can't it? Purification can be brought about through training. Training can be a reception, absorption, and implementation of transcendental knowledge, divya-jnana. Divya jnanam ksapayati iti diksa.

 

In a lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.1, in Los Angeles, on December 29^th, 1973, Srila Prabhupada mentions samskara in the context of training and reformation:

 

"

Dvija means samskara, reformation, to mold the character. That is called samskara. Just like you can train even a tiger, even an animal, to dance according to your desire. That is practical. So you cannot train a human being to become a brahmana? With such intelligence? But there is no such training. They are simply training all cats and dogs. But the Vedic civilization takes this opportunity of human being, to make him perfect in his life.

"

 

 

In a lecture from June 29th, 1976, Srila Prabhupada seems to be discussing samskara in the context of spiritual knowledge and education. Interestingly enough, Srila Prabhupada also uses the word "gradually":

 

"

Samskara... The real aim is to bring the rascal to the platform of knowledge. That is called samskara. Janmana jayate sudra. By birth everyone is the same, sudras, means without any knowledge. But the samskara means sudra, rascal, without any knowledge of spiritual life, to gradually bring him to the spiritual platform. That is called samskara. And samskarad bhaved dvijah. That is essential. The human life is the opportunity for understanding what he is and what is the aim of his life. The aim of life is back to home, back to Godhead. We are part and parcel of God. Somehow or other we are in this material existence. So aim is again come to our spiritual life, spiritual existence, where there is no struggle for existence, blissful, happy life. Because actually we want happiness, blissful life. That is not possible in the material world. That is in the spiritual world. That is the aim. So every human being should be given chance. That is real education. That is called samskara.

"

 

 

Thank you very much for reading what I wanted to share. Hare Krsna.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

[Murali_Mohan_das]

It's good to know more about "samskara". I was ignorant about the *positive* connotations of "purification" and "training".

 

In the past, I've thought of samskara in terms of mundane conditioning--the kind that binds us to maya.