Does Initiation Make the Maha-Mantra Work?

[sanatan]

 

Dear Prabhus,

 

I appreciate what sanatan Prabhu expresses above.

 

When I thought of the initiation ceremony, I often thought of it as a samskara. I understood "samskara" primarily as an event, as something like a rite of passage, or a sacrament. Perhaps this is simply one valid understanding of the term.

 

 

....Thank you very much for reading what I wanted to share. Hare Krsna.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

 

Samsara, I've always taken to mean the wheel of birth and death or perpetual material existence; the "blazing fire" that the spiritual master extinguishes.

 

Samskara has always meant "ceremony" to me; at the ISKCON temple here traditional ceremonies marking or celebrating various life passages are often held by the congregational Hindu members, and these are referred to as "so-and-so samskara".

 

Samskara as an ongoing process of spiritual training or ongoing and deepening spiritual initiation or "inner life" is a new one for me; Alex, thanks to you for expounding on this.

[theist]

 

It's good to know more about "samskara". I was ignorant about the *positive* connotations of "purification" and "training".

 

In the past, I've thought of samskara in terms of mundane conditioning--the kind that binds us to maya.

 

 

Alex:I've also understood the word "samskara" as an impression on the consciousness of the person who is undergoing the samskara experience. An event can imprint on consciousness, but so can a process. Training itself could be seen as an ongoing process of imprinting on the consciousness of the student.

 

Yes samskara also refers to impressions which are implanted on our mind by the experiences we go through. Samskaras. In the material world these are what determine our type of conditioning as Murali mentioned. The more intense the impression the more profund effect upon our present pyscho/physical state.

 

In deep regressive/past life hypnotherapy it is these more intense samskaras that present themselves for treatment.

 

For example someone may have an apparently irrational fear of water and exhibit great fear when next to a swimming pool or lake. This is most often traceable to a recent past life death by drowning. The impression or samskara was so intense that it actually intrudes into the conscious mind of a person in a new birth in the form of a water phobia. Once the therapist regresses the patient back to that experience the patient can understand the origin of the fear and from a regressive hypnotic position this reliving the death and understanding they survived it will most often be enough to purge the phobia.

 

On the otherside which Alex was speaking on are the positive samskaras and he is absolutely right about them. This is what sadhana bhakti is all about and exactly why it must be done mindfully so as to take in deep impressions of spiritual practice. And I agree with him that this is diksa as a process.

 

Srila Prabhupada spoke about how his initiation from Bhaktisiddhanta came some 13?years before his initiation ceremony. How was he initiated? He received the impression to preach Mahaprabhu's message from the transcendental personality Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati. A pure devotee only emanates bhakti-shakti and it is the impression left on the mind and consciousness Srila Prabhupada that was his initiation.

 

I forgot the sanskrit term but such Divine impressions are refered to as "clouds of virtue" which extinquish the blazing fire of material desires and they go deep into our stock pile of samskaras/karmas called sanchit to shower their rain of mercy.

 

This happens even beyond our conscious awareness of what is taking place. This is why it is said even a moments association with a pure devotee has value beyond anything else. One moment's samskara from such a person can also seen as the seed of bhakti implanted in the soil of our consciousness and if someone nourishes that seed through sadhana bhakti the flowers of bhava and preme can present themselves to Krsna's lotus feet in short order.

 

This is also why we MUST be initiated (reaceive impressions from) by a pure devotee. Only a pure devotee has pure unmixed bhakti shakti with which to impress upon another.

 

Impressions are had through vani. Vani is everything.

 

Alex has been gracing us with some very lucid posts on the subject of initiation.

 

Dandavat pranams prabhu

[Guruvani]

Samskara is reformatory process, purification, cleansing etc.

 

Samskaras are rites, rituals and procedures that aid in the reformation of the consciousness through purification and cleansing of the consciousness by effective means as recommended in shastra.

[Alex J]

 

Samsara, I've always taken to mean the wheel of birth and death or perpetual material existence; the "blazing fire" that the spiritual master extinguishes.

 

 

This is also why we MUST be initiated (reaceive impressions from) by a pure devotee. Only a pure devotee has pure unmixed bhakti shakti with which to impress upon another.

 

Dear theist Prabhu and sanatan Prabhu,

 

Thank you both for your posts. theist Prabhu, thank you for your words of appreciation for what I wrote. I find it encouraging, inspiring, and validating to read them.

 

Not too long ago I came across the following quote from a letter that Srila Prabhupada wrote to Janardana Prabhu, on April 26^th, 1968:

 

 

"

On the whole, you may know that he is not a liberated person, and therefore, he cannot initiate any person to Krishna Consciousness.

"

 

 

To me, the implication here seems to be that this statement is not only about the person in question, but is an expression of a general principle about initiation.

 

There's also a quote from the purport to SB 10.2.18, where Srila Prabhupada specifically uses the term "diksa", and which I've noticed some people bring attention to on the Internet:

 

 

"

As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva's mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaki not by the ordinary way for a human being, but by diksa, initiation. Thus the importance of initiation is mentioned here. Unless one is initiated by the right person, who always carries within his heart the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one cannot acquire the power to carry the Supreme Godhead within the core of one's own heart.

"

 

 

I'm assuming here that the reference to a person who "always carries within his heart the Supreme Personality of Godhead" refers to someone on a very high level of devotional service, a level that would automatically include liberation as one of its symptoms.

 

When I think of this type of person, I'm reminded of an excerpt from the purport to SB 1.7.22:

 

 

"

The spiritual master, by his words, can penetrate into the heart of the suffering person and inject knowledge transcendental, which alone can extinguish the fire of material existence.

"

 

 

When I read this quote, I also think of "divya jnanam ksapayati iti diksa" and "divya jnana hrde prakasito". There's also the purport to CC Madhya-lila 25.9, where Srila Prabhupada describes what he refers to as an "empowered personality":

 

 

"

Only an empowered personality can distribute the holy name of the Lord and enjoin all fallen souls to worship Krsna. By distributing the holy name of the Lord, he cleanses the hearts of the most fallen people; therefore he extinguishes the blazing fire of the material world.

"

 

 

All four of the above quotes from Srila Prabhupada seem to tie-in with what theist Prabhu wrote about receiving impressions. This person's words penetrate into the hearts of suffering people, and inject transcendental knowledge, divya-jnana. This person has Krsna, and gives Krsna to others. Divya jnana hrde prakasito.

The impressions that this person gives cleanses others' hearts. They extinguish a fire, as sanatan Prabhu mentioned when discussing samsara.

 

 

 

Thank you very much for reading what I wanted to share.

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Alex

 

[Alex J]

 

 

In the past, I've thought of samskara in terms of mundane conditioning--the kind that binds us to maya.

 

Yes samskara also refers to impressions which are implanted on our mind by the experiences we go through.

 

(...)

 

This is what sadhana bhakti is all about and exactly why it must be done mindfully so as to take in deep impressions of spiritual practice.

 

(...)

 

I forgot the sanskrit term but such Divine impressions are refered to as "clouds of virtue" which extinquish the blazing fire of material desires and they go deep into our stock pile of samskaras/karmas called sanchit to shower their rain of mercy.

 

Samskara is reformatory process, purification, cleansing etc.

 

Samskaras are rites, rituals and procedures that aid in the reformation of the consciousness through purification and cleansing of the consciousness by effective means as recommended in shastra.

Also, from the "At Least Theoretically Accept Krishna" thread:

 

 

 

(...) samskara. The famous "gradual process", a much used but seldom discussed precept of the professor of this science, Srila Prabhupada.

 

(...) we are ALL on the gradual process of Samskara.

Dear Prabhus,

This morning I found some more excerpts from lectures by Srila Prabhupada, where he states some interesting things about samskara. In the first three quotes, one of the words used in connection with samskara is "knowledge". Two of the quotes also include the word "education". One quote includes the expression "gradual process":

 

 

"

So janmana jayate sudrah samskarad bhaved dvijah. Birth. Birth is not all, everything. The culture, samskara. Samskara means culture. One has to take his birth, rebirth, by culture, by education, by knowledge.

" (Srila Prabhupada, lecture on Bhagavad-gita 4.12-13, July 29^th, 1966)

 

 

"

Janmana jayate sudra. Everyone is born sudra. Then? Samskarad bhaved dvija. Dvija means this samskara. This samskara… By gradual process of cultivation of knowledge, of behavior, of rules and regulations, one becomes a dvija. Dvija means twice-born.

" (Srila Prabhupada, brahmana initiation lecture with Professor O’Connell, May 6^th, 1968, Boston)

 

 

"

That reformation required, samskara, reformation, enlightenment, cultural life. That cultural life culminates when one actually becomes a brahmana, Vaisnava. That is real cultural life. Not by birth but by cultivation of knowledge, education, advancement, spiritual knowledge, one comes to the platform of brahmana.

" (Srila Prabhupada, lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.2.20, October 31^st, 1972, Vrndavana)

 

 

"

Samskarad bhaved dvijah. By samskara, by the reformatory process, one is initiated -- that is called dvija, dvitiya-janma.

" (Srila Prabhupada, lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.21, July 5^th, 1975, Chicago).

 

 

To link back to theist Prabhu's post, things such as culture, education and the cultivation of knowledge could all be seen as impressing themselves onto to the consciousness of the student. Such prolonged and consistent impressions could gradually mold and transform the student's consciousness, and these changes in consciousness would eventually manifest in the student's outward behaviour. This may also connect with what Murali Mohan Prabhu wrote about samskaras as mundane conditioning. Perhaps part of the process of Krsna Consciousness is the gradual overwriting and reforming of previous binding samskaras, with new freeing ones. Hence a new person is gradually born.

Thank you for reading what I wanted to share.

Sincerely,

Alex

[Guruvani]

 

<center>samskara</center>

saṃskāra-kālaḥ — at the proper time indicated for Vedic reformatory performances; SB 7.14.26

saṃskāra — reformation; SB 10.13.53

saṃskāra-ādi-matām — who possess such purification and so forth; SB 10.23.43-44

saṃskāra — execution of ritual purification; SB 11.21.14

saṃskāra — of the remnants; SB 12.13.2

saṃskāra — purification; CC Adi 12.12

saṃskāra — reformatory process; CC Madhya 6.76

saṃskāra kariyā — cleansing; CC Madhya 11.181

saṃskāra kariyā — after cleansing; CC Madhya 15.79

saṃskāra karāila — had clipped and cleaned; CC Madhya 15.85

saṃskāra kari' — trimming; CC Madhya 15.87

saṃskāra-yugala — by both previous and current purificatory methods; CC Madhya 23.95-98

saṃskāra — cleansing; CC Madhya 24.333

saṃskāra kari' — cleansing; CC Antya 3.37

saṃskāra kariyā — cleansing and repairing; CC Antya 13.70

saṃskāra — cleaning; CC Antya 18.103

pūrva-saṃskāra-saṃskṛtaḥ — under the impulse of previous impressions; Bs 5.23

[sanatan]

Interesting...in a certain sense, samskara equals samsara.

 

I never stop learning on this board, that's for sure.

[Alex J]

Dear Prabhus,

I appreciate the links that Guruvani Prabhu has shared in post #56, one of which was to Srimad Bhagavatam 10.13.53. In the purport to that verse, Srila Prabhupada writes something that I found interesting in relation to samskara:

 

"

As for samskara, or reformation, this is possible by good association, for by good association one develops good habits, and habit becomes second nature. Therefore, bhakta-sane vasa: let people have the chance to live with bhaktas. Then their habits will change.

"

 

This reminds me of what theist Prabhu wrote earlier in this thread:

 

This happens even beyond our conscious awareness of what is taking place. This is why it is said even a moments association with a pure devotee has value beyond anything else. One moment's samskara from such a person can also seen as the seed of bhakti implanted in the soil of our consciousness and if someone nourishes that seed through sadhana bhakti the flowers of bhava and preme can present themselves to Krsna's lotus feet in short order.

Sincerely,

Alex