what friends are for

[mahak]

I think these are very profound lyrics. Moderator welcome to erase or move. Hare Krsna, mahaksadasa

 

[mahak]

Well, (oh by the way, haribol), the lyrics show that one cane be quite disappointed in friends. As I draw to a close my internet career of eleven years (Ill still come, but not to the extent), I see that the hare krsna movement if actually very dry, not by anything Srila Prabhupa expounded, but by this rampant disappointment in friends.

 

I, too, am disappointed. In my main teacher, who has given me everything, because of his political leanings (Im way left, he be right). In my preceptor who died as a result of his own attachments to matter. I see soooooo much rejection by my peers of my other peers because they have disappointment.

 

But, is this not what friends are for? Im still friends. I cannot join the popular hate bandwagons because others have so much disappointment that it destroyed the friendship. My friend died of aids, but I refuse to call him anything other than ------ Swami. I refuse to meditaTE on any subsequent activity, becaUSE ------ Swami was known by my karmi friends as Prabhupadas little brother, because he was the most compassionate person I ever meho actually had my best interests in heart when the friendship was established.

 

He disappointa fewpeople, whenfriendship reared it's ugly head, But isnt this, what friends are for.

 

Right on, Johnny Lydon. This absolutely great rock star who like the Beatles, Like Dylan, Like Elvis, not only made great songs, but was the foation of a musical genre that many others followed and prospered under. This guy actually reminds me of my siksa guru (the one tacitly mentioned as my political adversary above).

 

Anyone care to comment about how disappointment should never affect true friendship? How can we hate the revised editions and still love the editor? How can we hate the guru system but still accept the one supported by that system as guru?

 

Its my last project before I die, to get things right, to ask forgiveness from aLL those who have disappointed me and faced my graerror of sacrificing their friendship. It is my probl;em, not theirs, after all isnt that, what friends are for.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

PS At least Im not doing commentary about walking like Egyptians:eek::eek:

[gHari]

Max, perhaps typing the lyrics might help some of us not quite so hip.

 

Ain't nothing you can do to make me stop luvin' the madman.

[Alex J]

DISAPPOINTED

Disappointed

Promises

Promises

Old tired

Worn out second hand sentences

One thing

With you is certain

You’re a really sad person

So sad

Disappointed a few people

When friendship reared its ugly head

Disappointed a few people

Well, isn't that what friends are for

What are friends for

You

You're just a really bad person

Who won't

You won't listen to anyone

No not you

With those half moon eyelids

Just babbling on

Your useless defences

So sad

Disappointed a few people

When friendship reared its ugly head

Disappointed a few people

Well, isn't that what friends are for

What are friends for

This erratic haphazard

Fluttering

This to-ing and fro-ing

Like a confused moth

The collusion

Illusion

And it's all ad infinitum

You're a really sad person

You're really so sad

Disappointed a few people

When friendship reared its ugly head

Disappointed a few people

Well, isn't that what friends are for

What are friends for

Fools and horses

Running their courses

And brow beaten down

Like dust on the ground

You cheat easily

Like sweet charity

And all of the bastards

The world despises

Springing surprises

In newer disguises

You cheat easily

Like all charity

[suchandra]

Vaishnava friends - presently not such a commonly used term. Looks like the evolution goes in this direction, Vaishnavas living on their own and not having to share any realization. Do ants have a better sense of cooperation? After all what's the meaning of friends who don't cooperate?

 

 

 

 

 

[mahak]

Yes, these lyrics are a teaching of what it is like here in the age of Kali Yuga. This is why I really like PIL. But here is the real song so you can listen while we discuss.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5mYsTGjP_Y

 

It seems that the singer of this mantra is an indirect disciple of the great Johnny, as her other videos indicate.

 

Our Suchandra, as usual, gives us further room for thought. Vaisnava friends. It is entirely up to us whether this phrase is wonderful or oxy moronic. I have concluded that all my peers are wonderful friends. That they did not be like Krsna, the best friend, is not an issue. My old curmugeon godbrother (HE WAS OLD CURMUGEON EVEN WAY BACK WHEN WE BOTH WERE YOUNG), bHAJAVARDANA DAS, told me something once that stuck. I was in disillusionment, because all my godbrothers collectively left ISKCON, not once, but twice. He told me that disillusionment is impossible unless one is in illusion. From that day on, I understood that those in the waiting room for the physician (prabhupada) cure are actually just as sick as I am, therefore, no symptomatic activities should make me hate them.

 

I have tried to take a stand over the last ten years concerning those who becamne disciples of one who has unfortunately fallen off the mark. I like my solution. Such a disciple is duty-bound to repay the wonderful gifts such a GURU gave you when he was well, so you have an obligation to feel only compassion and desire to help such a person, at least by prayer to guru and gauranga for a swift recovery from TEMPORARY setback. From a distance, mind you, but we dont take joy in subsequent suffering. But Srila Prabhupada covers this contingency, saying often thaT TO retrieve a fallen disciple is worth ten new folks off the street. He also informs us that it is common for those who have devoted their lives to bhakti to experiance an extreme increase in the activities of illusion (maya), and they may have some token stuff to get rid of.

 

Anyway, I take this opportunity to hold an olive branch and to be a vaisnava friend. If anyone can be my friend, then I can certainly accept everyone as mine without regard.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Alex J]

Dear mahaksadasa Prabhu,

 

I'll gladly receive your friendship, and I'll offer you mine.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

[theist]

If friendship is the topic then the topic is again Krsna consciousness because there are no solid non-disappointing friendship in this realm of exploitation. When we get free from the desire to exploit others and serve krsna and others then we will know what it is to be someones friend and to receive friendship.

 

Until that point why expect much from others especially when we are unwilling to give it ourselves?

 

Friendship is another transcendental experience. Friendship in this world is only a perverted reflection of the real thing. We are practicing friendship just like we are practicing devotion.

 

Important thing is to not let disappointments in others cause us to experience anger and hold resentments.

[mahak]

Haribol. Listening to nina hagen sing hare krsna is so nice while typing. You-tube is quite a good thing, maybe murali can put one on that I sent him. Im techno-lost.

 

Theist, you always hit the point, and we are perhaps good examples, at least we should hope. We dont see eye to eye on a lot of political concerns, yet, we seem to have established a "non-disappointing" friendship, a truely transcendental experiance.

 

If we study the rasa of friendship, especially the most profound one of Krsna and Arjuna, we see examples of where some things even happen there that may seem disappointing. When Arjuna is mortified by the disappearance of Lord Krsna, he tells his awesome brother, Sri Yudhisthira, of a feeling that their (krsna and Arjuna) may have had bumps. I mean, on that chariot, that was a bump. Arjuna threw his arrows down, and told Krsna, "Forget it, I aint fightin". (Colloquialism is mine, as if yall couldnt guess.)

 

Friendship with the devotee and the Lord is always transcendental. This is where the awe and fear of servitude actually goes away, and a more intimate (and equal) relationship takes place.

 

And theist makes good point as well with his comment on practice. This topic, this thread, is my practice. Im not your friend, but I can practice, and this is what its all about. Practice. Practical application of theory prior to spontaneous actual feeling. But while involved in PRACTICE, bhakti is so wonderful that actual transcendence takes place within the practice. In other words, sadhana bhakti is Bhakti yoga, just as bhava and prema.

 

Hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guruvani]

Jiva Jago:

 

 

tomare loite ami hoinu avatara

ami bina bandhu ara ke ache tomara

 

I have descended just to save you; other than Myself you have no friend in this world.

[Guruvani]

<center>Bhagavad-gita

Chapter 12. Devotional Service</center>

 

TEXT 18-19

 

samah satrau ca mitre ca

tatha manapamanayoh

 

One who is equal to friends and enemies, who is equipoised in honor and dishonor, heat and cold, happiness and distress, fame and infamy, who is always free from contamination, always silent and satisfied with anything, who doesn't care for any residence, who is fixed in knowledge and engaged in devotional service, is very dear to Me.

[theist]

Yeah Mahak, we have learned to let the ahankara's slide and keep only that which furthers us on towards our common goal. We, everyone, every jiva, has been woven inseparately of the same fabic, the same being, Krsna, since before time.

 

Beyond the dazzling array of birth and death, gods and demons, sinners and saints, animal, human, angel whatever, there is only One God, One Family.

 

Equal vision is to be strived for.

 

BTW what is all this talk of no more posting? If something better causes you to move on then go with God but if it's just frustration then I would say hang on we will all grow past our present immature stage, why not grow together?

[Laulyam]

TEXT 4

arthe hy avidyamane 'pi

samsrtir na nivartate

dhyayato visayan asya

svapne 'narthagamo yatha

SYNONYMS

arthe--real cause; hi--certainly; avidyamane--not existing; api--although; samsrtih--the material existential condition; na--not; nivartate--does cease; dhyayatah--contemplating; visayan--objects of the senses; asya--of the living entity; svapne--in a dream; anartha--of disadvantages; agamah--arrival; yatha--like.

TRANSLATION

Actually a living entity is transcendental to material existence, but because of his mentality of lording it over material nature, his material existential condition does not cease, and just as in a dream, he is affected by all sorts of disadvantages.

PURPORT

The example of a dream is very appropriate. Due to different mental conditions, in dreams we are put into advantageous and disadvantageous positions. Similarly, the spirit soul has nothing to do with this material nature, but because of his mentality of lording it over, he is put into the position of conditional existence.

Conditional existence is described here as dhyayato visayan asya. Visaya means "an object of enjoyment." As long as one continues to think that he can enjoy material advantages, he is in conditioned life, but as soon as he comes to his senses, he develops the knowledge that he is not the enjoyer, for the only enjoyer is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As confirmed in Bhagavad-gita (5.29), He is the beneficiary for all the results of sacrifices and penances (bhoktaram yajna-tapasam), and He is the proprietor of all the three worlds (sarva-loka-mahesvaram). He is the actual friend of all living entities. But instead of leaving proprietorship, enjoyment and the actual position as the friend of all living entities to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, we claim that we are the proprietors, the enjoyers and the friends. We perform philanthropic work, thinking that we are the friends of human society. Someone may proclaim himself to be a very good national worker, the best friend of the people and of the country, but actually he cannot be the greatest friend of everyone. The only friend is Krsna. One should try to raise the consciousness of the conditioned soul to the platform of understanding that Krsna is his actual friend. If one makes friendship with Krsna, one will never be cheated, and he will get all help needed. Arousing this consciousness of the conditioned soul is the greatest service, not posing oneself as a great friend of another living entity. The power of friendship is limited. Although one claims to be a friend, he cannot be a friend unlimitedly. There are an unlimited number of living entities, and our resources are limited; therefore we cannot be of any real benefit to the people in general. The best service to the people in general is to awaken them to Krsna consciousness so that they may know that the supreme enjoyer, the supreme proprietor and the supreme friend is Krsna. Then this illusory dream of lording it over material nature will vanish.

[Alex J]

"I am happy to hear that Karatieya Maharaja has returned to our camp. Now you give him all good counsel and friendship..." (Srila Prabhupada, letter to Sudama, January 21^st, 1972)

"And isvare, unto the Supreme Lord -- prema. They learn how to love Krsna and how to make friendship with Krsna's devotee." (Srila Prabhupada, lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.8.29, Mayapura, October 9^th, 1974)

"And tad, isvare tad-adhinesu balisesu dvisatsu ca, prema, prema, love for Krsna, and maitri, and to make friendship with the devotees. (...) To try to love Krsna, to make friendship with devotees..." (Srila Prabhuapda, lecture on Bhagavad-gita 7.1, December 13^th, 1972, Ahmedabad)

"Prema-maitri, and to the devotees, we have to make friendship with them." (Srila Prabhuapda, lecture on Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.100, Washington, D.C., July 5^th, 1976)

"Maitri means to make friendship. One who is devotee, we should make friendship with him." (Srila Prabhupada, lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.4, Mayapur, February 18^th, 1977)

Dear Laulyam and Guruvani Prabhus,

I’m a human being. Friendship is important and nourishing for me. I'm grateful for the friends who are a part of my life, and with whom I can relate and connect, with whom I can talk, correspond.

Sincerely,

Alex

[mahak]

Haribol. Thank you much, friends, alex and theist. BTW, my comments about retirement mean that Im going to be more selective about topics. (yeah mahak, like Bangles???) :eek:

 

I get a sense of some not thinking friendship with devotees, albeit kanistha adhikaris, is very uplifting or valuable. What will they do with the quotes Alex has posted? What will they do to the instruction I had from Srila Prabhupada that the number one thing a person MUST do to make advancement in Krsna Consciousness is to befriend devotees?

 

I think it has to do with understanding what is meant by the word KRSNA itself. They think that one must reject everyone except Krsna, and provide quotes that only Krsna is a friend. Okay, I cannot dispute the quote, so go play with Krsna. OOOPS. Stuck, are we? Cant find Him? Maybe it is just thaT kRSNA doesnt want to play?

 

No, the fact of the matter is that Krsna means much more than the mind can conceive. Krsna is also fully manifest, not only in His Name, His Form, but also in His PARAPHENALIA. Now we see this word throughout Srila Prabhupadas writings. Anyone ever look up that word? It means all things ATTACHED to Krsna, fully meaning His devotee.

 

Srila Prabhupada does not discriminate between devotees of different levels of advancement. He certainly gives direction to the kanistha adhikari to enable the practcie to fructify into spontaniety (madhyama adhikari), but he never even closely hints that kanisthas are rejected. He includes the kanistha adhikari in the term VAISNAVA. Third class? Sure, but its still a class, unlike those below such stage, those he insists we avoid the association with.

 

The revisionist has made a wierd religion. Insisting that only uttama adhikaris are worthy of our association, they have made it impossible, not simple, which opposes Srila Prabhupada directly. It is impossible because no one can recognize an uttama adhikari except another fully purified devotee. And because everyone is far from this potentiality, the revisionist religion is one of frustration, the classic frustrating religion of "neti, neti", also covered completely by Srila Prabhupada. "He is not a devotee. Neither is he. Did you know what he used to do? Do you know that he did a reefer last month? I saw him looking at that girl.". Poor people, searching for one who is eligible to be their friend.

 

But why is it that we are told to follow in Srila Prabhupadas footsteps, yet we have such prejudice against everyone except our own false sense of Lordship? Who did srila prabhupada seek out to associate with? When I met him, I was attached to a song titled "Heroin" by the Velvet Underground (I was gonna post it, but that woulda been over the edge, and my whole thread would have been banned, I got lucky with the michael Jackson modern dance number). And Srila Prabhupadas motivation is he wanted us for friends. Because we were lost, but open to suggestion. Drowning, but hoping for a stout ship (bhagavatam) with a capable navigator (also bhjagavatam).

 

I had great fortune to associate with folks who were not only Srila Prabhupadas disciples, but also his friends. I was able to take part in such intimate displays of friendship between these parties that went a bit further than the awesome and reverential disciple/guru relaitionship. The joking, the fun. This is my attraction to the movement. This is what is sublime, friends, Krsnas PARAPHENALIA. In this age, Krsna has appeared fully in His Name, Pastimes, Form, and Paraphenalia. So if we insist thast only Krsna is our friend, thinking he is stuck in our view of what his personality consists of, we lose. He is not walking on this planet. He is not in the statue in the church. And by the same token, he is not manifest in his name. If we do not associate with Krsna in the form of his paraphenalia, then we cannot associate with krsna in the form of his Name either.

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

BTW, I couldnt fully go away without gHaris permission anyway.

[Laulyam]

Not trying to rain on any ones parade.Please forgive me.The purport speaks for itself. As long as the friendship and association helps us to advance in KC.

[theist]

 

Not trying to rain on any ones parade.Please forgive me.The purport speaks for itself. As long as the friendship and association helps us to advance in KC.

 

This is the idea. The purport did speak for itself. Alex's quotes were valuable too. It is just the use of the word friendship being used slightly differently I think.

 

I have been "friends" with many several "devotees" that I wish I had never met. I am sure they feel the same about me. Not because I didn't like them or we didn't get along, actually quite the opposite. It because we also brought out the same bad habits in each other like smoking ganja that were detrimental to advancement in Krsna consciousness along with chanting on beads kirtan,eating prasada and even distributing books that were conducive to Krsna consciousness.

 

I call this mixed friendship. Just like until a devotee is purified he is a mixed devotee. When on the plane of suddha bhakti however he is Vaisnava in the truest sense.

 

Same principle. There is purified friendship which is inherent in the suddha-bhakta and then there is mixed friendship which is found in different degrees or mixtures in the beginning and intermediate aspirants.

[Vedesu]

 

Not trying to rain on any ones parade.Please forgive me.The purport speaks for itself. As long as the friendship and association helps us to advance in KC.

 

How could anyone think that you are raining on their parade? The purport you quoted doesn't say not to make friends with other devotees. It explains the peace formula and how a true friend is one who helps his/her friend understand this peace formula, that Krsna is the greatest friend, (as well as the supreme enjoyer and supreme proprietor.) Any Vaishnava or aspiring Vaishnava would certainly feel great joy and gratitude upon reading this definition of friendship as given by Srila Prabhupada. Buddies, allies, cohorts, associates, partners et al perpetually come and go, and may help lull one into a temporary feeling of false comfort within this material existence, but give me just one friend, a humble servant of Srila Prabhupada, or the humble servant of the servant of any saintly Vaishnava; one who will remind me of my greatest Friend and my real home.... then he is my real friend, and I will welcome him into my hearth and home with open arms and tears of joy.

[mahak]

I like rain, it never affected any parade I ever had. I actually am speaking of devotees of lesser caliber on this thread, the ones who were just like us, ganja and all. I am thinking carefully of how Srila Prabhupada instructed his disciples of three different relationships one MUST have with our devotee associates.

 

1. For those who are not as advanced, we teach up to the level of our own realizations.

 

2. For those who are equally advanced, we become friends and work cooperatively to forward this movement.

 

3. For those who are more advanced, we hear from and serve faithfully with rapt attention.

 

So, my motive for this thread is to glorify the second catagory, our equal friends. Yes, the ganja smoking devotee is quite worshippable and worthy of friendship, because he is thousands of times more desirable than associating with a non-devotee ganja smoker.

 

I guess what started this feeling is that I sent a chanting tape to our friend here on audarya, murali. Hearing it again after many years (it was recorded in 1983) made me desire associating with these ganja smokin devotees. The circumstance was that we were ganja smokin musicians always wanting to jam. We did all the licks, but some of us, especially myself and the very best hand-drummer of all time (except for maybe Jivananda das, my ol friend), Michael Trash, liked improvizational riffs, so we didnt do covers. At open mikes, someone would shout "do country", and michael would say "which country".

 

It was in this atmosphere that I, for some unknown reason, decided that the lyrics I knew from a decade earlier were best, so I raided my box, got some caratalas and my harmonium out, and changed the scope of our jams. Next thing I knew, I was no longer a devotee in isolation, as dylan sings "poisoned in the bushes, blown out on the trail, hunted like a crocodile, ravaged in the corn, 'come in', she said, "ill give ya shelter from the storm'".

 

So, out of nowhere, and certainly not because of my guru status, there were twenty new madfolk, all singing the praises of Harinam, all making prasadam, all making offerings to Krsna, all placing Krsna, Prabhupada, and Gaura Nitai in prominance in their homes.

 

We didnt do regulations, but no one any longer ate meat. Everyone had beads and beadbags. We drank herbal tea in the wilderness while Srila Prabhupada lecture tapes were played. The devotion increased, the habits decreased.

 

Time moved on, when friendship reared its ugly head, but years later, I ran into a dying Michael Trash, and on his desk by his bed, there was a picture of Prabhupada, and a Bhagavad Gita As It Is on an elaborate pillow, the best diety I ever saw, so much so, that I did dandavats immediately, even though I hadnt put my head on the grounf for years. He passed on, addicted to cough syrup, heroin, and all kinds of stuff, but his passing was a spiritual event, one I consider in the same realm as our dear late friend Nirguna. Different level, for sure, but I call him, without fear, a pure devotee who was thought of at the time of His death by Sri Krsna and Srila Prabhupada.

 

We are all in a world of hurt. Our lives are spillin out on the streets of armageddon. And we are all alone. But once, when I was equally depressed, I wrote Siddha swarupa, who I consider full guru to me despite the criticisms of others. He kindly remarked that I am never alone, if I want to remember Krsna, he will remember me. If I desire to engage in samkirtana, "i dont need a church house, I dont need a temple", all I need is an instrument and voice.

 

The #2 catagory is where I honor my peers, those who want but yet do not have, Krsna Consciousness. The wanting is just as powerful as having, and just a little quirk will demonstrate this, as the tape to Murali Prabhu last week demonstrates, that Harinama Samkirtana is not the property of a foundation, a religion, or anything of that sort. Samkirtana is whereveer Lord Nityananda shows his causeless mercy on the jagais and madais of the world.

 

Haribol, thaks all for engaging in this discussion, ys, mahaksadasa

[mahak]

another song I found, way cool.

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

I guess what started this feeling is that I sent a chanting tape to our friend here on audarya, murali. Hearing it again after many years (it was recorded in 1983) made me desire associating with these ganja smokin devotees.

 

Funny, but I recorded the tape into the laptop last night and am listening to it as I read your post and write this reply.

 

I'm as sober as I get right now, and it's still *way far out*!!

 

Thanks for the nectar! I hope to be sharing it with all shortly.

[mahak]

Thanks for murali's expertise, I can share this with my friends.as soon as I can figure it out so you all caQN READ OTHER STUFF WHILE LISTENING

[gHari]

I'm enjoying that now. Can't quite define the instruments, but it is like nothing I've ever heard before. Thanks for venturing to the cutting edge for us, Mahak. That is what friends are for.

[mahak]

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THIS FEATURES THAT HAND DRUMMER i WAS TALKIN ABOUT, HIS CRACKING VOICE AS WELL. bRO BESIDE HIMSELF, SOME LICKS, EH??

 

MAHAK

[gHari]

Sounds like a duet - very nice. If the Everly Brothers chanted it would be like this.