Blowing One's Mind

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Last night, Sripad Bhakti Sudhir Goswami Maharaja gave the Sunday Feast lecture at the Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Seva Ashram in Soquel.

 

Maharaja presented an idea that, well, blew my mind. He said that, in Krishna Consciousness, we must be prepared to have our minds blown time after time. It's not that our minds are blown the first time we come in contact with the philosophy. Rather, as we progress (and mercy descends to us), new understandings will come which may shatter our previous conceptions of who Krishna is.

 

He pointed out that, in following a revolutionary Guru like Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada, this principle was especially true.

 

Furthermore, Goswami Maharaja described how, even late in his manifest pastimes, Srila Sridhar Maharaja would mention recent realizations and developments in his heart.

 

You can hear an mp3 of the lecture here:

http://www.esnips.com/doc/d114c248-a912-4c35-aca3-ec535546a015/Sunday-Feast---November-4,-2007---Sripad-B.S.-Goswami-Maharaj---High-Quality

 

or, if you have don't have broadband, this link might be more appropriate:

http://www.esnips.com/doc/ece5beac-5507-46a9-bbad-45d09a6e378c/Sunday-Feast---November-4,-2007---Sripad-B.S.-Goswami-Maharaj

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Also, Maharaja began the talk by addressing the question, "We have heard the Sri Guru is as good as God. We have even heard that Guru is *better* than God. Can you explain how this can be so?"

 

I'm listening to the lecture again now. Maharaja quotes Udhava Gita at 2:00 in the audio file. I'll try to note the times of some other highlights.

 

At 3:30 in the lecture (and throughout), Maharaja presents an interesting idea regarding "objective" experience and how it is actually *unwanted*.

 

What we really want is *subjective* experience.

 

At 6:05, Maharaja relates the pastime of Srila Sridhar Maharaj who, prior to joining Gaudiya Math, visited the Temple on Gaura Purnima.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja spoke with the pujari about the Deity and His worship. Maharaja asked the pujari why, if the Deity is *directly* Krishna, it appeared that those in the primary position were not in the Temple engaged in archana, but were up in the quarters of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati? The pujari replied that the Lord is *more* present in the Vaishnava than even in the Deity.

 

Astouding.

 

By 9:25, Goswami Maharaja expresses how difficult it can be to accept this truth.

 

At 12:30, Maharaja clarifies that we don't want to be "Guru-pies" (groupies) in the sentimental sense. Guru is everything, but must not be sentimental in our attachment.

 

15:40 - "If you do not deceive yourself, then no one can deceive you".

 

16:20 - "Devotees are *living* scriptures"

 

16:25 - The bit about how disciples of Srila Saraswati Prabhupada, by necessity, had to "repeatedly reconceptualize Krishna Consciousness."

 

18:06 - "Forever the reconceptualist". Followed by the recounting of how Srila Sridhar Maharaja spoke about realizations he had had three days prior (not thirty years).

 

20:04 - Guru should be considered nitya-siddha, not sadhana siddha.

 

21:16 - "Objective experience cheats us from realizing spiritual substance. We're riveted to verifying things by 'objective' means."

 

33:20 - When Jayadev Goswami, author of Gita Govinda, came to the part where he says (in effect) "Guru is greater than God", he paused and wondered if he was not getting carried away by what was appearing in his heart.

 

34:12 - "Devotees must learn to live with the uncertainty principle. There is no certainty in Krishna Consciousness." So we must take shelter of the Vaishnava.

 

44:50 - "You can't prove this rationally. You can't prove the existence of God objectively. We make a mistake when devotees get all excited...and there's a picture from NASA in their e-mail inbox *PROVING*...blah, blah, blah. That's not faith--that's not the culture of faith. Actually, that is *antithetical* to the culture of faith. Faith is: it's a rope, it's a snake--it's a snake, it's a rope."

 

49:40 - "Krishna says to Arjuna, hear from me and your doubts will be removed."

[Guruvani]

Bhakti Sudhira Goswami Maharaja KI-JAYA (times a thousand)

 

[Beggar]

 

Bhakti Sudhira Goswami Maharaja KI-JAYA (times a thousand)

To quote Smokey Robinson, "I second that emotion..."

 

[theist]

 

20:04 - Guru should be considered nitya-siddha, not sadhana siddha.

 

Never understood the difference. Might make for a good thread on it's own.

[beatyneils]

hi

[gHari]

Two days off work .... and all this nectar!

I am one happy boy.

Thanks for bringing this eyewitness jug back to us, Eminem.

 

<img src=http://canoeparts.ca/KINGDOM/Dhanvantari.jpg>

[Inedible]

 

33:20 - When Jayadev Goswami, author of Gita Govinda, came to the part where he says (in effect) "Guru is greater than God", he paused and wondered if he was not getting carried away by what was appearing in his heart.

 

34:12 - "Devotees must learn to live with the uncertainty principle. There is no certainty in Krishna Consciousness." So we must take shelter of the Vaishnava.

 

Just guessing here. Although God is everywhere we do not experience God directly without the help of Guru, so rather than trying to find God we should go to Guru instead?

[Beggar]

<table><tbody><tr><td>

</td><td class="m">Chapter 19: Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Instructs Srila Rupa Gosvami</td></tr></tbody></table>Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Madhya 19.151

brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva

guru-krishna-prasade paya bhakti-lata-bija

SYNONYMS

brahmanda bhramite -- wandering in this universe; kona -- some; bhagyavan -- most fortunate; jiva -- living being; guru -- of the spiritual master; krishna -- of Krishna; prasade -- by the mercy; paya -- gets; bhakti-lata -- of the creeper of devotional service; bija -- the seed.

TRANSLATION

"According to their karma, all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Krishna. By the mercy of both Krishna and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service.

PURPORT

When we speak of brahmanda, we refer to the whole universe, or to the cluster of many millions of universes. In all the universes there are innumerable planets, and there are innumerable living entities upon those planets -- in the air, on land and in the water. There are millions and trillions of living entities everywhere, and they are engaged by maya in suffering and enjoying the results of their fruitive activity, life after life. This is the position of the materially conditioned living entities. Out of many of these living entities, one who is actually fortunate (bhagyavan) comes in contact with a bona fide spiritual master by Krishna's mercy.

Krishna is situated in everyone's heart, and if one desires something, Krishna fulfills one's desire. If the living entity by chance or fortune comes in contact with the Krishna consciousness movement and wishes to associate with that movement, Krishna, who is situated in everyone's heart, gives him the chance to meet a bona fide spiritual master. This is called guru-krishna-prasada. Krishna is prepared to bestow His mercy upon all living entities, and as soon as a living entity desires the Lord's mercy, the Lord immediately gives him an opportunity to meet a bona fide spiritual master. Such a fortunate person is fortified by both Krishna and the spiritual master. He is helped from within by Krishna and from without by the spiritual master. Both are prepared to help the sincere living being become free from material bondage.

How one can become this fortunate can be seen in the life of Srila Narada Muni. In his previous life he was born of a maidservant. Although he was not born into a prestigious position, his mother was fortunately engaged in rendering service to some Vaishnavas. When these Vaishnavas were resting during the Caturmasya period, the boy Narada took the opportunity to engage in their service. Taking compassion upon the boy, the Vaishnavas offered him the remnants of their food. By serving these Vaishnavas and obeying their orders, the boy became the object of their sympathy, and by the Vaishnavas' unknown mercy, he gradually became a pure devotee. In the next life he was Narada Muni, the most exalted of Vaishnavas and the most important guru and acarya of Vaishnavas.

Following in the footsteps of Narada Muni, this Krishna consciousness movement is rendering service to humanity by giving everyone a chance to come in contact with Krishna. If one is fortunate, he becomes intimately related with this movement. Then, by the grace of Krishna, one's life becomes successful. Everyone has dormant krishna-bhakti -- love for Krishna -- and in the association of good devotees, that love is revealed. As stated in the Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya 22.107):

nitya-siddha-krishna-prema 'sadhya' kabhu naya

sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya

Dormant devotional service to Krishna is within everyone. Simply by associating with devotees, hearing their good instructions and chanting the Hare Krishna mantra, dormant love for Krishna is awakened. In this way one acquires the seed of devotional service. Guru-krishna-prasade paya bhakti-lata-bija.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

If you are pleased, then my life has not been wasted.

 

Of course, in my eagerness to share the nectar, I failed to go through "proper channels" (in terms of getting these files posted on the official SCS Math web site).

 

Gaura Hari!!

 

 

Two days off work .... and all this nectar!

I am one happy boy.

Thanks for bringing this eyewitness jug back to us, Eminem.

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Just guessing here. Although God is everywhere we do not experience God directly without the help of Guru, so rather than trying to find God we should go to Guru instead?

 

That's a doozy of a question, and I think Beggar has posted a verse from scripture in answer.

 

Let me briefly answer from my *own* understanding (or lack thereof).

 

We can experience God in everything directly. The question is: how firm is our faith and how pure are our hearts? If our faith is not absolute and are hearts even just a bit impure, there is the danger of misinterpretation/distortion/perversion/concoction.

 

Because Sri Guru is seen as having faith which cannot be shaken and a pure heart, we have the opportunity to take his/her shelter and receive Divine Mercy through that surrendered vessel.

 

Because Sri Guru is *more accessible* (Maharaja used the term more than once in the lecture) to us than even Sri Krishna, Sri Guru can dispell our misconceptions.

[Beggar]

To err is human. To err is inevitable for all, being not perfect. Still, no one wants to remain imperfect. There is an element within all that is animate that tends towards perfection. If it were not so, we would feel no want at all. Our tendency towards perfection is certainly very weak and limited; otherwise we could attain the goal at once. Our limited capacity and tendency for perfection makes room for the guide or guru.

The imperfect is not so if it is not in need of help, and that also from beyond itself. The perfect is not perfect if He cannot assert Himself or help others, and that too, of His own accord. So the guidance to perfection or Absolute Truth is necessarily a function of the absolute Himself, and the divine agent through whom this function manifests is Sri Guru or the divine guide.

For a seeker of the Absolute Truth, submission to the guru is unavoidable. A class of thinkers believes, however, that when scientific research is possible, why cannot higher spiritual knowledge also be evolved from within? Such people are ignorant of the most essential nature of absolute Knowledge, that He alone is the Aksolute Subject and all else including ourselves constitutionally stand only as an object to His omniscient vision. It is impossible for the eye to see the mind; it can have some connection with the mind only when the latter cares to mind it. In a similar way, our connection with absolute knowledge depends mainly on His sweet will. We must solely depend on His agent, or the spiritual master, through whom He likes to distribute Himself.

Our human society with its finest culture forms but an infinitesimal part of the dynamic absolute. How, except by the direct and positive method of revelation, dare we hope to comprehend or evolve any conception of the supernatural knowledge of the unconditioned infinite? All intellectual giants prove themselves but pygmies before the absolute omniscient omnipotence who reserves the right to give Himself away through His own agents alone.

To our best knowledge and sincerity, however, we should see not to submit to a false agent. Here of course, we can't help ourselves very much; because in our present state we are mainly guided by our previous samskara or acquired nature. "Birds of the same feather flock together." Yet, although we are generally overpowered by habit, there is still the possibility of free choice to a certain extent, specially in the human species, otherwise correction becomes impossible, and punishment mere vengeance. Reality can assert itself. Light does not require darkness for its positive proof. The sun by itself can establish its supremacy over all other lights. Before an open and unbiased eye, the sad guru (real guide) shines above all professors of phenomenon.

Sri Guru manifests himself mainly in a twofold way- -as the director from within and the preceptor from without. Both functions of the absolute help an individual soul--a disciple to reach the absolute goal. In our fallen state we cannot catch the proper direction of the inner guide, so the merciful manifestation of the preceptor without is our sole help and hope. But at the same time it is only by the grace of the guru within that we can recognize the real preceptor without and submit to his holy feet.

A bona fide disciple must always remain fully awake to the fact that his highest spiritual fortune is but a gracious grant from the Absolute Lord, and not a matter of right to be demanded or fought out. Constitutionally, we are equipped only to be proper recipients of God's favor. In this connection it should be clearly understood that an individual soul can never be substantially the same as the Absolute Person. Not even in his liberated or fully realized condition can an individual soul be one with Godhead. The misconception of oneness has been introduced from the slothful nondiscrimination of the Absolute Personality from the luminous orb around His eternal, spiritual, and blissful home. In fact, an individual soul constitutes only a part of a particular power of intermediate value of the Supreme Lord, and as such he is capable of being converted from both sides. He differs from the absolute Entity both in quantity and quality; and is merely a dependent entity on the absolute. In other words, the Absolute Lord Krsna is the master,and an individual jiva soul is His constitutional subordinate or servant.

Such a relationship is constant and really wholesome for the jiva. The apprehension of slavery does not arise because of his free choice and immense positive gain. The freedom and individuality of the jiva are not only unharmed bv surrender to the Absolute Good, but they really thrive in Him alone. Individual freedom and interest are the part and parcel of those who are of the absolute, and so they are quite at home there, as a fish is at home in water or an animal in a healthy atmosphere. But the freedom as well as all other qualities of the Supreme personality are unlimited and transcendental, and so only by their partial functions they harmonize all relative entities.

Sri guru is not exclusively the same as the Supreme Lord Himself, but he fully represents the essence of the whole normal potency and embodies the most comprehensive and excellent service and favor of the Lord. As he is the fittest servitor of the Lord, he is empowered by the Lord to reinstate all misguided souls to their best interest. So, guru is the divine messenger of immortal hope and joy in this mortal and miserable world. His advent is the most auspicious and happy event to the suffering animation, and can be compared to the rising of the moming star that can guide the traveller lost in the desert. A gentle touch of sri guru's merciful hand can wipe off the incessant tears from all weeping eyes. A patriot or philanthropist makes the problem only worse in his frantic and futile attempt to alleviate the deeprooted pain of a suffering soul, as an ignorant doctor does in eagerly handling an unfortunate patient. Oh the day when this poor soul realizes the causeless grace of sri gurudeva.

Swami B.R. Sridhara

-this essay was originally published in 1934, in The Harmonist

[Murali_Mohan_das]

The quote below highlights an important point.

 

We can certainly experience God everywhere, but is that the most rewarding position? Guru tells us that, more wonderful than experiencing God is to *BE EXPERIENCED* by God (cue Jimi Hendrix...Have you ever been experienced?).

 

How are we experienced by God? Through our service. In Beggar's earlier post, there is a key point--Sri Guru grants us that secure service connection (as opposed to our child-like attempts to serve independently).

 

 

For a seeker of the Absolute Truth, submission to the guru is unavoidable. A class of thinkers believes, however, that when scientific research is possible, why cannot higher spiritual knowledge also be evolved from within? Such people are ignorant of the most essential nature of absolute Knowledge, that He alone is the Absolute Subject and all else including ourselves constitutionally stand only as an object to His omniscient vision. It is impossible for the eye to see the mind; it can have some connection with the mind only when the latter cares to mind it. In a similar way, our connection with absolute knowledge depends mainly on His sweet will. We must solely depend on His agent, or the spiritual master, through whom He likes to distribute Himself.

...

Swami B.R. Sridhara

-this essay was originally published in 1934, in The Harmonist

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Being a selfish bastage, I tend to forget about the service angle.

 

Note to self:

M u s t

R e m e m b e r

**SERVICE!!**

 

 

TRANSLATION

"According to their karma, all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Krishna. By the mercy of both Krishna and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Never understood the difference. Might make for a good thread on it's own.

 

I agree it would make a good thread.

 

If I may briefly go out on a limb here:

 

Goswami Maharaja is emphasizing that we want *subjective* experience.

 

Objectively, there may be no difference between nitya-siddha (eternally-realized) and sadhana-siddha (perfected through spiritual discipline). After all, as we keep hearing, there is no mundane time in the Spiritual World.

 

So, it seems Maharaja is talking about our *subjective* experience. It is for our own benefit that we consider Sri Guru to be nitya-siddha, regardless of what the "truth" is.

 

More thoughts are coming, but I'd best leave it at that for now, eh?