The concept of BACK to Godhead

[Beggar]

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: The Nectar of Instruction 8

tan-nāma-rūpa-caritādi-sukīrtanānu-

smṛtyoḥ krameṇa rasanā-manasī niyojya

tiṣṭhan vraje tad-anurāgi janānugāmī

kālaḿ nayed akhilam ity upadeśa-sāram

SYNONYMS

tat — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; nāma — the holy name; rūpa — form; carita-ādi — character, pastimes and so on; su-kīrtana — in discussing or chanting nicely; anusmṛtyoḥ — and in remembering; krameṇa — gradually; rasanā — the tongue; manasī — and one's mind; niyojya — engaging; tiṣṭhan — residing; vraje — in Vraja; tat — to Lord Kṛṣṇa; anurāgi — attached; jana — persons; anugāmī — following; kālam — time; nayet — should utilize; akhilam — full; iti — thus; upadeśa — of advice or instruction; sāram — the essence.

TRANSLATION

The essence of all advice is that one should utilize one's full time — twenty-four hours a day — in nicely chanting and remembering the Lord's divine name, transcendental form, qualities and eternal pastimes, thereby gradually engaging one's tongue and mind. In this way one should reside in Vraja [Goloka Vṛndāvana dhāma] and serve Kṛṣṇa under the guidance of devotees. One should follow in the footsteps of the Lord's beloved devotees, who are deeply attached to His devotional service.

PURPORT

Since the mind may be one's enemy or one's friend, one has to train the mind to become his friend. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is especially meant for training the mind to be always engaged in Kṛṣṇa's business. The mind contains hundreds and thousands of impressions, not only of this life but also of many, many lives of the past. These impressions sometimes come in contact with one another and produce contradictory pictures. In this way the mind's function can become dangerous for a conditioned soul. Students of psychology are aware of the mind's various psychological changes. In Bhagavad-gītā (8.6) it is said:

yaḿ yaḿ vāpi smaran bhāvaḿ

tyajaty ante kalevaram

taḿ taḿ evaiti kaunteya

sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ

"Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail."

At the time of death, the mind and intelligence of a living entity create the subtle form of a certain type of body for the next life. If the mind suddenly thinks of something not very congenial, one has to take a corresponding birth in the next life. On the other hand, if one can think of Kṛṣṇa at the time of death, he can be transferred to the spiritual world, Goloka Vṛndāvana. This process of transmigration is very subtle; therefore Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī advises devotees to train their minds in order that they will be unable to remember anything other than Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, the tongue should be trained to speak only of Kṛṣṇa and to taste only kṛṣṇa-prasāda. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī further advises, tiṣṭhan vraje: one should live in Vṛndāvana or any part of Vrajabhūmi. Vrajabhūmi, or the land of Vṛndāvana, is supposed to be eighty-four krośas in area. One krośa equals two square miles. When one makes Vṛndāvana his residence, he should take shelter of an advanced devotee there. In this way one should always think of Kṛṣṇa and His pastimes. This is further elucidated by Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī in his Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu (1.2.294):

kṛṣṇaḿ smaran janaḿ cāsya

preṣṭhaḿ nija-samīhitam

tat-tat-kathā-rataś cāsau

kuryād vāsaḿ vraje sadā

"A devotee should always reside in the transcendental realm of Vraja and always engage in kṛṣṇaḿ smaran janaḿ cāsya preṣṭham, the remembrance of Śrī Kṛṣṇa and His beloved associates. By following in the footsteps of such associates and by entering under their eternal guidance, one can acquire an intense desire to serve the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

Again Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī states in Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu (1.2.295):

sevā sādhaka-rūpeṇa

siddha-rūpeṇa cātra hi

tad-bhāva-lipsunā kāryā

vraja-lokānusārataḥ

"In the transcendental realm of Vraja [Vraja-dhāma] one should serve the Supreme Lord, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, with a feeling similar to that of His associates, and one should place himself under the direct guidance of a particular associate of Kṛṣṇa and should follow in his footsteps. This method is applicable both in the stage of sādhana [spiritual practices executed while in the stage of bondage] and in the stage of sādhya [God realization], when one is a siddha-puruṣa, or a spiritually perfect soul."

Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura has commented as follows upon this verse: "One who has not yet developed interest in Kṛṣṇa consciousness should give up all material motives and train his mind by following the progressive regulative principles, namely chanting and remembering Kṛṣṇa and His name, form, quality, pastimes and so forth. In this way, after developing a taste for such things, one should try to live in Vṛndāvana and pass his time constantly remembering Kṛṣṇa's name, fame, pastimes and qualities under the direction and protection of an expert devotee. This is the sum and substance of all instruction regarding the cultivation of devotional service.

"In the neophyte stage one should always engage in hearing kṛṣṇa-kathā. This is called śravaṇa-daśā, the stage of hearing. By constantly hearing the transcendental holy name of Kṛṣṇa and hearing of His transcendental form, qualities and pastimes, one can attain to the stage of acceptance called varaṇa-daśā. When one attains this stage, he becomes attached to the hearing of kṛṣṇa-kathā. When one is able to chant in ecstasy, he attains the stage of smaraṇāvasthā, the stage of remembering. Recollection, absorption, meditation, constant remembrance and trance are the five items of progressive kṛṣṇa-smaraṇa. At first, remembrance of Kṛṣṇa may be interrupted at intervals, but later remembrance proceeds uninterrupted. When remembrance is uninterrupted, it becomes concentrated and is called meditation. When meditation expands and becomes constant, it is called anusmṛti. By uninterrupted and unceasing anusmṛti one enters the stage of samādhi, or spiritual trance. After smaraṇa-daśā or samādhi has fully developed, the soul comes to understand his original constitutional position. At that time he can perfectly and clearly understand his eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa. That is called sampatti-daśā, the perfection of life.

"Caitanya-caritāmṛta advises those who are neophytes to give up all kinds of motivated desires and simply engage in the regulative devotional service of the Lord according to the directions of scripture. In this way a neophyte can gradually develop attachment for Kṛṣṇa's name, fame, form, qualities and so forth. When one has developed such attachment, he can spontaneously serve the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa even without following the regulative principles. This stage is called rāga-bhakti, or devotional service in spontaneous love. At that stage the devotee can follow in the footsteps of one of the eternal associates of Kṛṣṇa in Vṛndāvana. This is called rāgānuga-bhakti. Rāgānuga-bhakti, or spontaneous devotional service, can be executed in the śānta-rasa when one aspires to be like Kṛṣṇa's cows or the stick or flute in the hand of Kṛṣṇa, or the flowers around Kṛṣṇa's neck. In the dāsya-rasa one follows in the footsteps of servants like Citraka, Patraka or Raktaka. In the friendly sakhya-rasa one can become a friend like Baladeva, Śrīdāmā or Sudāmā. In the vātsalya-rasa, characterized by parental affection, one can become like Nanda Mahārāja and Yaśodā, and in the mādhurya-rasa, characterized by conjugal love, one can become like Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī or Her lady friends such as Lalitā and Her serving maids (mañjarīs) like Rūpa and Rati. This is the essence of all instruction in the matter of devotional service."

[gHari]

The arrogant cynicism is simply unattractive, certainly not the attitude of truth. Our problem is that we are not honest enough to admit that we don't know. So we have to puff up like that frog in the well. Is it bigger than this? Is it bigger than this? Then BOOM.

 

I'm really glad I went twenty years without discussing this stuff with others. Let them build their egos on their own time, and not waste mine.

[Vedesu]

 

The arrogant cynicism is simply unattractive, certainly not the attitude of truth. Our problem is that we are not honest enough to admit that we don't know.

 

It is so unattractive, isn't it? Mirror mirror on the wall.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

It is so unattractive, isn't it? Mirror mirror on the wall.

 

 

 

Mirror, mirror...

BY: JAGABANDHU DASA

 

Nov 3, FORT WHITE, FLORIDA (SUN) —

Finding fault with Himself was Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's Personal religion. This was also the religion of Srila Rupa Goswami Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Srila Saraswati Thakur. This mood can be found throughout their various personal expressions.

 

To always question my own motivations in a blistering way with brutal self-honesty is very good for my actual inner development. It will help me to remain a true beginner so that I might make real progress. At last.

 

If I honestly consider why I first "joined" the temple at the age of 17, thirty-one years ago, it was because I was an incorrigible teen about to become homeless. I had simply run out of options and had no place else to go.

 

Now I lead the existence of a grhamedi, living only to support the extensions and expansions of my own senses. Somehow I never have even a farthing to contribute to Mahaprabhu's Sankirtan. I never feed the cows or brahmanas.

 

When I was young it was only with great difficulty that I could arise to attend Sri Mangal Aroti. Now I have no qualms about having to wake at 3:30 AM to prepare for work to support my family. Apparently what I would not do for Guru and God, I will easily do for money and the ongoing feeble attempt to satisfy my senses.

 

God, Sri Guru, the Saints and Devas are All witness to my various improprieties, insincerities and vacuous lack of Real Devotion. And yet still I unabashedly refuse to control my senses and begin real progress on my way. vIf I carefully consider "mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the foulest of them all?," that would be yours truly. I can hardly bear the ghastly visage staring back. Last time I saw a mouth like that it had a hook in it. Closer examination would find the inside of my mouth lined with scar tissue from all the previous hook marks. Might as well just be done with it and call me Fish Face. Sorry about the stench. It stinks to high heaven.

 

Any other questions? From our panel of experts?

 

 

 

[gHari]

 

It is so unattractive, isn't it? Mirror mirror on the wall.

Yes, you will notice that I said 'we' not 'you'. And I accepted my own chastisement before you pointed it out.

 

My only partial conclusion on the origin to date has been the feeling that "If it feels like home, then is it not"? The words on the issue are far too complicated for me to reach any logical decisive position; and I will never accept half a hen. So I remain kakaka, "Kaka taliya nyaya".

[Guruvani]

 

Pass this on to your 'friends' at the Gaudiya math.

 

I hope you don't think you speak for the majority of Prabhupada disciples or ISKCON devotees.

You don't.

You represent a few oddballs and GBC partyliners, but I can tell you right now the majority of Prabhupada disciples are neither.

 

Maybe you have yourself convinced that you speak for Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON, but absolutely you DO NOT!

 

You represent a few oddballs and political partyliners with an agenda to defend the bogus preaching of a few ISKCON "gurus" and book writers.

 

You don't have anyone fooled except yourself.

You don't represent anything except false ego, false pride and political party agenda.

 

Most leading ISKCON devotees would not have anything to do with your foolish sleepervadi rant.

 

I have known and associated with many senior ISKCON devotees in my years and I know for sure you don't speak for them or the majority of disciples of Srila Prabhupada.

 

If you think you pose any serious threat philosopically with your sleepervadi concoction you are seriously confused.

 

Are you a threat?

Don't make me laugh.

I have a hernia.

If I laugh too hard it can cause me pain so please stop making comedy on this forum.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

This is about the most sensible thing I've read all day.

 

Gaura Hari!!!

 

 

Yes, you will notice that I said 'we' not 'you'. And I accepted my own chastisement before you pointed it out.

 

My only partial conclusion on the origin to date has been the feeling that "If it feels like home, then is it not"? The words on the issue are far too complicated for me to reach any logical decisive position; and I will never accept half a hen. So I remain kakaka, "Kaka taliya nyaya".

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Ooooh! Sorry to hear that!

 

I'll try to tone things down a bit myself (of course, you may not find me to be as funny as *I* find me to be).

 

Govinda!!!

 

 

Are you a threat?

Don't make me laugh.

I have a hernia.

If I laugh too hard it can cause me pain so please stop making comedy on this forum.

[Beggar]

 

Most leading ISKCON devotees would not have anything to do with your foolish sleepervadi rant.

We all have a great debt to Guruvani for inventing the term "sleepervadi" (although I prefer to spell it "Sleeper-Vadi"). Guruvani, I just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for you great contribution to Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Perhaps you could tell us a little bit how you brainstormed that term?

[Guruvani]

 

We all have a great debt to Guruvani for inventing the term "sleepervadi" (although I prefer to spell it "Sleeper-Vadi"). Guruvani, I just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for you great contribution to Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Perhaps you could tell us a little bit how you brainstormed that term?

 

I invented it?

I didn't know that.

I thought somebody else came up with it first.

Maybe it was dreamervadi?

 

Anyway, I don't keep up with who invents what.

I am more inclined to the subtle points of siddhanta that I find in the books than I am towards any terminology or concoctions I come up with.

 

Maybe we can get it into the Wikipedia? (Sleeper-Vadi)

Who is going to take charge of that?

I work full time at the art studio and then have to come home and cook dinner, clean the bathroom, the kitchen and do laundry.

 

Maybe somebody with more time on their hands can get "sleepervadi" or "Sleeper-Vadi" into the Wikipedia?

 

I think it certainly deserves proper recognition as one of the most novel deviations of Gaudiya siddhanta ever proposed in the western world.

[gHari]

From an aesthetic viewpoint I admire the newest theory in that it at least makes an attempt to assimilate all the evidence at hand. But I would prefer the term daydream to package the proposal.

 

There are currently four established camps in the clearing:

 

1) the innocent

Fall-vadis

,

 

2) the violent

No-fall-vadis

,

 

3) the timid

Fall/No-fall-Daydreaming-vadis

,

 

4) and of course, we will always have the original fence-sitting

kakaka-vadis

who occasionally just poke holes in the other established theories to vent their frustration with our crow/tal-fruit paradox.

One needs some humor to cope with the impossible epic debate of the yuga. On the outside we surely appear like the blind men describing an elephant. In fact, on the outside, they likely have no idea how we get so worked up over a question they never even consider.

 

But the mind's crocs keep us dutifully entertained in vicious battle, keeping it focussed on the eternal self. Stand and fight, O Mighty-armed!

[indulekhadasi]

 

To put things in proper perspective, it's is very clear Srila Prabhupada instructed his genuine disciples to avoid the Gaudiya math completely. ISKCON has nothing to do with the present mundane version of the Gaudiya math that has been mundane since Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Thakur departure from this world in 1936, Srila Prabhupada never liked staying with any of his Godbrothers because they where not serious nor understood the preaching aspect of Spiritual life.

 

Please forgive me, unnfortunately it seems that you don't have a very clear understanding of Srila Prabhupada's relationship with his godbrothers. Some may have been antagonistic but many were his good friends. Please read the book "Our Srila Prabhupada, A Friend to All, Early Contemporaries Remember Him" by Mulaprakriti devi dasi. This book melted my heart and I am sure it will melt yours, too.

 

Hare Krishna.

[sevabhakta]

Hari Bol!

 

What a joy reading the nectar of this third page. Discussion like this allows for the descent of the true perspective to come to light. To accept that we WILL NOT understand something using our materially conditioned way of "fact" finding is the key that unlocks the true revelation, and we get to read about it from the lotus lips of our most prominent preceptors, compiled so nicely by the guardians of devotion on this forum.

 

For a real mind bender, try to put yourself in the mental posture of a sleepervadi, where you are so bent on the "easy way" (cheap sahajyaism) that you ignore all the myriad yet relevant dimensions of Jiva-tattva as gradually experienced by an awakening Jiva, because this is the only way to continue to fool one's self into claiming identitical status with a pure advanced mahabhagavata who experiences only eternal time. (In other words, you are "already there", wink-wink)

 

Cheap imitative Sahajyaism is not actual discipleship. If there was any following of discipline before the Sahajya tendencies took over, when chastisement from neither Acarya nor Conscience were heeded, that soul is to be considered in violation of the discipline of following the regulative principles. The Guru's order is the life and soul, so neglecting such they lose their life and sould and therefore are temporarily dead to Sri Guru's Grace, not because Sri Krsna removes his potency from that disciples life, but that the disciple chooses Maha Maya.

 

So while those with eyes and ears will see that this battle was decisively won by the Sastravadi's here in Cyberspace, realize that the Sleepervadis MUST push on because their tremendous false egos result in a directly proportionate wholesale rejection of engaging in regulative discipline because they are already at the goal. At least that is what they tell the hundreds or thousands of followers whose emotional and physical energy they feed off of. Sure they might make a show of the regs when they are forced to keep up the image, but not always.

 

So they MUST and WILL take the fight out of the realm of intellect where they have been summarily defeated, and attempt to squelch the source of the expression of that intellect. Yep, the "etherial biological vehicle" must be silenced, lest it keep uttering words which jeopardize the FEAST.

 

The Feast of the Beast will not tolerate the impingement of reallity dished out by a minority handful of rag-tag and motley extremist devotees.

 

Just remember, our resident Snooze-head, Viagra-kattah, represents the ringleader in each local area.

 

Just try walking into your local temple during class and challenge the "pure devotee" giving their little spin on the Bhagavatam that day. Or handing out flyers at Sunday feast with a short sastrically backed synopsis of where we (conditioned souls and nitya-siddhas) come from, why the Iskcon position is techinically Sahajayism bordering on Mayavada and distortedly twists Blissful Loving service of Krsna into something so cheap and ordinary that it could be discarded at a whimsical whiff of Maha Maya's purfume that somehow wound its way into Goloka Vrndavana on a waft of material wind, though that liar Krsna promised it could not be so in his Homeland.

 

Then you will find out how many "friends" you had in that community.

 

Time to circle the wagons, and let sleeping dogs lie.

 

Jaya Prabhupada

[theist]

 

From an aesthetic viewpoint I admire the newest theory in that it at least makes an attempt to assimilate all the evidence at hand. But I would prefer the term daydream to package the proposal.

 

There are currently four established camps in the clearing:

 

1) the innocent

Fall-vadis

,

 

2) the violent

No-fall-vadis

,

 

3) the timid

Fall/No-fall-Daydreaming-vadis

,

 

4) and of course, we will always have the original fence-sitting

kakaka-vadis

who occasionally just poke holes in the other established theories to vent their frustration with our crow/tal-fruit paradox.

One needs some humor to cope with the impossible epic debate of the yuga. On the outside we surely appear like the blind men describing an elephant. In fact, on the outside, they likely have no idea how we get so worked up over a question they never even consider.

 

But the mind's crocs keep us dutifully entertained in vicious battle, keeping it focussed on the eternal self. Stand and fight, O Mighty-armed!

 

Not sure what kakaka means but I am probably in that camp except for the frustration part. I am so much at peace over this one. I'll know if and when Krsna tells me by realization and not before. And considering the present state of my spiritual life that won't be anytime soon. I accept my ignorance.

 

But there is no way to stop this thing. It has such momentuum with both sides desperately needing each other. Mudslingers need someone to sling mud on. And so they take turns and the slings and arrows keep flying.

[Beggar]

 

 

But there is no way to stop this thing. It has such momentuum with both sides desperately needing each other. Mudslingers need someone to sling mud on. And so they take turns and the slings and arrows keep flying.

 

If the Sleeper-Vadis didn't exist, we would have to invent them.

[gHari]

If the Sleeper-Vadis didn't exist, we would have to invent them.

But we already had the fall-vadis to lord over.

[cbrahma]

This topic goes deeper than the manifest issue of fall-down. The amount of hair-splitting, voluminous rants and non sequitur tells me its more political than logical. The fall/sleep belief is associated with ISKCON. That apparently is enough.

[Guruvani]

Obviously, we have fallen from somewhere.

The term "fallen souls" appears many times in the books of Srila Prabhupada.

 

As far as the fall-from-vaikuntha planets goes, Srila Prabhupada was in the no-fall category.

 

 

 

The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

 

 

From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Visnu who descend from Vaikuntha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord.... it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. (Bhag. 7.1.35, purp.)

The nitya-siddha devotees never fall down. (Bhag. 3.3.26, purp.)

. . . a devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord never falls. (Bhag. 3.15.48, purp.)

In the spiritual world... inhabitants...They're aksara. They do not fall down. Ksara aksara. We are ksaras. We have fallen down in this material world. But there are devotees in the spiritual world, in the Vaikunthaloka, they never come down. Never come down in this material world, but they are also persons like us, but eternal persons, with full knowledge and life of blissfulness. That is the difference between them and us. (741105SB.BOM)

 

 

 

Those who say that Srila Prabhupada in other places supported the fall-from-goloka idea are simply reading too much into his words because there is not a single verse where Srila Prabhupada says that anyone has fallen from Vaikuntha.

 

The fall-from-goloka theory is an extrapolation.

There is not a single direct statement from Srila Prabhupada that supports the fall-from-vaikuntha claims.

[Kulapavana]

 

Our problem is that we are not honest enough to admit that we don't know.

 

It is a lot worse than that. When you have very clear shastric verses (from both sruti and smriti sources!) proclaiming that jiva comes from the tatastha sphere of existence, and you deny their validity and ultimate authority by pushing your own concocted theory that is nowhere to be found in the Vedic literature - that is no mere ignorance. It is a deliberate attempt to boost your own ego at the expense of truth. It is cheating 101.

[Guruvani]

The fall-from-vaikuntha theory is actually rooted in the GBC's early attempts to debunk the Gaudiya Matha and it's offshoots and branches.

 

The GBC needed to find something other than just political position to support their offensive campaign against the non-ISKCON Gaudiyas.

 

So, the mayavada accusations against the Gaudiya Matha oriented camps became the device by which the ISKCON GBC chose to show that they are philosophically deviant and preaching mayavada siddhanta.

 

ISKCON originally made the big issue out of it and so now the dispute continues down to the present day.

 

If the fall-from-vaikuntha myth could ever be absolutely defeated then it would put many ISKCON leaders in the dog house.

That is why that in spite of much evidence against the fall-from-vaikuntha theory they sleepervadis are so rabid to continue to promote the fairytale.

 

A lot of reputations and prestige is on the line if the sleepervada is defeated.

Even in the face of total defeat they refuse to admit it.

That is the dogged determination of the false ego and political ambition.

[Svarupa]

 

Please forgive me, unnfortunately it seems that you don't have a very clear understanding of Srila Prabhupada's relationship with his godbrothers. Some may have been antagonistic but many were his good friends. Please read the book "Our Srila Prabhupada, A Friend to All, Early Contemporaries Remember Him" by Mulaprakriti devi dasi. This book melted my heart and I am sure it will melt yours, too.

 

Hare Krishna.

 

Yes our Srila Prabhupada is a friend to all living beings but always CALLS A SPADE A SPADE!!

 

Regarding the Gaudiya math

 

"Disturbance is caused by ignorance; where there is no ignorance, there is no disturbance. The four Sannyasis may bark, but still the caravan will pass. There is every evidence that they are influenced by some of my fourth-class Godbrothers."Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Hayagriva 9/14/70:

 

"Do not be depressed. All along my godbrothers gave me only depression, repression, compression--but I continued strong in my duty. So never mind there is some discouragement, continue with your work in full enthusiastic Krishna Consciousness attitude of service." Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Gurudasa 8/29/72:

 

"Our big, big godbrothers in India, they could not preach Lord Gauranga's name all over India. They are simply inclined to criticize me, that my students call me Prabhupada. They could not do anything practical and tangible. They are satisfied with a temple and a few disciples begging alms for the maintenance of the temple. So, we can understand that they have all become sudras. How can they have interest in Bhagavad-gita. Although some of them have been born in brahmana families, but by quality are ALL sudras." Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Niranjana 5/21/73:

[cbrahma]

The devil quotes scripture.

One can be expert at playing scriptures off against one another.

However out of Prabhupada's mouth

Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back.

Prabhupada: No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, ‘Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,’ I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become.” Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108 (San Francisco, February 18, 1967) <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P></O:P>

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice,Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?” Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 (Los Angeles)<O:P></O:P>

Translator: The question is: did we fall in this material world to find some highest pleasure? His question is: did we fall in the material world to experience something which is higher?

Prabhupada: I do not follow.

Yogesvara: I think his question is the husband will leave the wife because he is dissatisfied. But if our love for Krsna originally is perfect why should we have left?

Prabhupada: YOU HAVE LEFT... Just like somebody is daily eating puris and halava, and he wants to eat also puffed rice. So that tendency is there. That is also a side of enjoyment. ‘I am eating daily this, let me eat this.’ What is the difficulty? That tendency is there. That is also enjoyment. After all, we are hankering after enjoyment, anandamayo 'bhyasat. So, different taste we desire, that, "Let me taste this, let me taste that, let me taste that." So the real basic principle is enjoyment, sense enjoyment. That's all." Bhagavada-gita Lecture August 5, 1976 (Paris) <O:P></O:P>

[Kulapavana]

 

"Our big, big godbrothers in India, they could not preach Lord Gauranga's name all over India. They are simply inclined to criticize me, that my students call me Prabhupada. They could not do anything practical and tangible. They are satisfied with a temple and a few disciples begging alms for the maintenance of the temple. So, we can understand that they have all become sudras. How can they have interest in Bhagavad-gita. Although some of them have been born in brahmana families, but by quality are ALL sudras." Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Niranjana 5/21/73:

 

You think SP would call his sannyasa guru a sudra? How about Sridhara Maharaja? You think he would say such things to their face? I very seriously doubt so.

 

Quite frankly SP statements as the one above make me extremely embarassed. It is very difficult to justify them based on FACTS, and to reconcile them with a lot of other very positive statements he made about his various godbrothers over the years.

 

Yes, the snotty attitude people like you have towards other Vaishnavas is in part based on Prabhupada's statements like the one above. Still, that does not make them to be true, or even justified.

[suchandra]

 

It is very difficult to justify them based on FACTS, and to reconcile them with a lot of other very positive statements he made about his various godbrothers over the years.

 

 

Let's just consider the plain FACTS, go and listen to any lecture and examine what is actually being presented. Soon you'll find out, the presentation cannot be called preaching, nobody is getting convinced and the whole thing is merely set up like an Indian folklore presentation. The required procedure to explain, what is the living entity, what is this world, what is the Supreme Lord, what is our relationship with the Supreme Lord, totally neglected.

[indulekhadasi]

 

You think SP would call his sannyasa guru a sudra? How about Sridhara Maharaja? You think he would say such things to their face? I very seriously doubt so.

 

Quite frankly SP statements as the one above make me extremely embarassed. It is very difficult to justify them based on FACTS, and to reconcile them with a lot of other very positive statements he made about his various godbrothers over the years.

 

Yes, the snotty attitude people like you have towards other Vaishnavas is in part based on Prabhupada's statements like the one above. Still, that does not make them to be true, or even justified.

 

OMG, Kulapavana Prabhu took my thoughts out of my head and posted them here. Thanks, prabhu.