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Our Affectionate Guardians

Chapter Four:

 

 

 

Prabhupada's Instructions

 

 

 

 

 

Shortly before he left us in 1977, Srila Prabhupada advised his disciples to see Srila Sridhara Maharaja if they had questions about philosophical matters. This instruction was accepted by the entire GBC at that time, and from 1977 to 1981 they did approach Srila Sridhara Maharaja with many important questions.

A substantial portion of the GBC Guru Position Paper of March 1978, the GBC's official statement published after their initial question-and-answer session with Srila Sridhara Maharaja, is taken directly from Srila Sridhara Maharaja's instructions to the GBC, with a few noteworthy additions and subtractions.

That it was actually the instruction of Srila Prabhupada that we should approach Srila Sridhara Maharaja for spiritual instruction is corroborated by taped statements of Jayapataka Maharaja, Satsvarupa Maharaja, Bhakti Caru Swami, Tamala Krsna Maharaja, and many other GBCs [some of whom later changed their minds regarding the validity of their previous statements], as well as by Tripurari Maharaja who was personally massaging Srila Prabhupada's lotus feet in the midst of several senior devotees when he heard this instruction from Srila Prabhupada. The instruction came in response to a question from Tamala Krsna Maharaja as to whom we could approach for advice after Srila Prabhupada's disappearance. Bhakti Caru Swami related to Srila Sridhara Maharaja on August 19, 1980:

 

Prabhupada gave us an instruction that if we have any difficulty then we should come to you, but they are deliberately neglecting that instruction of Srila Prabhupada.

 

In addition, official GBC recognition of this instruction of Srila Prabhupada was given in the GBC's March 1981 publication, "The Descending Process of Selecting a Spiritual Master." Giriraja Maharaja, in a letter of September 16, 1978 addressed to all GBC members, wrote:

 

According to Sridhara Swami, who Srila Prabhupada said we should consult about philosophy and practical points, there is relative and absolute considerationand we must give Sridhara Swami the highest regard. At one time, Srila Prabhupada said that apart from himself only Sridhara Swami was qualified to write the

Bhagavatam

purports. When we approached Srila Prabhupada before his departure about our writing books after his disappearance, Srila Prabhupada replied, "You can write when you are realized, but now none of you are realized."

 

So both in terms of relative rank and absolute realization, Sridhara Swami is far beyond any of us. Recently, I have heard statements to the effect that we have now surpassed Sridhara Swami and that we are in the position where we can improve upon Sridhara Swami's conception. In this connection, I am simply reminded of the words of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu,

svami na mane yei jana vesyara bhitare, tare kariye ganana

,

that we must remain faithful to our Swami [otherwise we will be prostitutes]. (Cc .

Antya-lila

7.115)

 

In regard to Srila Sridhara Maharaja, Srila Prabhupada's disciples said:

 

[Prabhupada said] If there was question we should approach you. (Jayapataka Maharaja, tape, March 1978)

 

We should go to his godbrother Sridhara Maharaja for guidance. So this talk of October 21, 1980 certainly showed the gbc doing this, and Srila Sridhara Maharaja fulfilling this role, as Prabhupada requested he do for the disciples of Srila Prabhupada. (Satsvarupa Maharaja, tape, December 22, 1980)

 

Srila Prabhupada's leading disciples also greatly appreciated Srila Sridhara Maharaja. A historic series of darsanas during the Gaura Purnima of 1981 were attended every day by many leading iskcon devotees, including Tamala Krsna Maharaja, Ramesvara Maharaja, Kirtanananda Maharaja, Giriraja Swami, Jayadvaita Swami, Bhakti Caru Swami, Atreya Risi Prabhu, and many other GBCs.

 

Our Guru Maharaja was kind upon us, so you are kind upon us. I find no difference at all in how you are blessing us. When I used to come every year to Mayapur, my whole purpose in coming was fulfilled when I would be in his association. So similarly, now I am feeling that as I have come here, that my purpose is being fulfilled, whenever I am in your association. (Tamala Krsna Maharaja, tape, February 26, 1981)

 

 

I take it that Prabhupada is speaking to us through you. (Ramesvara Swami, tape, March 5, 1981)

 

Additionally, other disciples stated:

 

Sridhara Maharaja's instructions are nondifferent than Prabhupada's. (

Autobiography of a Jewish Yogi,

Acyutananda dasa)

 

Prabhupada told me twice, "Everything I know, I learned from Sridhara Maharaja." (Hamsaduta dasa)

 

Maharaja, time will prove that they [

ISKCON

leaders] are wrong, and you are right. (Bhakti Caru Swami, tape, February 1982)

 

Srila Prabhupada himself spoke highly of Srila Sridhara Maharaja:

 

...who is the most highly competent of all my godbrothers. This is B. R. Sridhara Maharaja, whom I consider to be even my

siksa

guru . If you are serious about the advancement of your spiritual life, I advise you to go to Sridhara Maharaja and I will feel that you are safe.You can also make arrangements for your other godbrothers to go there in the future. (SP Ltr. Hrsikesa, January 1, 1969)

 

What Sripada Sridhara Maharaja has directed, I take it on my head.It is appropriate that I should accept his direction. (SP Ltr. Govinda Mj, 12-9-69)

 

What Govinda Maharaja has said is true. I consider his guru as my siksa guru . (SP,

ISKCON

Mayapur Candrodaya Mandira opening ceremony 1974)

 

Those who are intelligent, they are making something, Sridhara Maharaja and others. (SP Conversation, Allahabad, January 13, 1977)

[1]

 

One of my important godbrothers [sridhara Maharaja] says. He's sincere. He says, "The prediction of

Caitanya-caritamrta, prthivite ache yata nagaradi-grama

So you have done it." (SP LA Morning Walk, December 11, 1973 & SP Ltr. Bon Maharaja, July 7, 1975)

[2]

 

Our relationship is very intimate. After the breakdown of the Gaudiya Matha I wanted to organize another organization making Sridhara Maharaja as the head. (SP Conversation, March 17, 1973)

[3]

 

Over the years, various facts have mysteriously changed, according to the political climate. Statements included in this book are substantiated with hard copy and tape recordings. Understandably, one may change his opinion regarding certain things, but this does not change the essential facts, the actual truth, satyam param dhimahi .

Letter to Rupanuga

 

Despite Srila Prabhupada's final and conclusive statements regarding Srila Sridhara Maharaja, some take Srila Prabhupada's letter to Rupanuga in 1974 as the conclusive statement about Srila Sridhara Maharaja. An excerpt of the letter follows:

 

My dear Rupanuga Maharaja,

 

Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter of April 17, from Washington D.C. and I have very carefully noted the contents.

 

You are right about Sridhara Maharaja's genuineness. But in my opinion he is the best of the lot. He is my old friend, at least he executes the regulative principles of devotional service. I do not wish to discuss about activities of my godbrothers but it is a fact they have no life for preaching work. All are satisfied with a place for residence in the name of a temple, they engage disciples to get foodstuff by transcendental devices and eat and sleep. They have no idea or brain how to broadcast the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. My Guru Maharaja used to lament many times for this reason and he thought if one man at least had understood the principle of preaching then his mission would achieve success. In the latter days of my Guru Maharaja, he was very disgusted. Actually, he left this world earlier, otherwise he would have continued to live for more years. Still he requested his disciples to form a strong governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He never recommended anyone to be

acarya

of the Gaudiya Matha. But Sridhara Maharaja is responsible for disobeying this order of Guru Maharaja, and he and others who are already dead, unnecessarily thought that there must be one

acarya .

If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be

acarya

he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an

acarya .

His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a

GBC

and conduct the mission. So his idea was that a self-effulgent

acarya

would be automatically selected from amongst the successful members of the

GBC

. So Sridhara Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one

acarya

and later it proved a failure. The result is now everyone is claiming to be

acarya

even though they may be

kanistha-adhikari

with no ability to preach. In some of the camps, the

acarya

is being changed three times a year. Therefore we may not commit the same mistake in our

ISKCON

camp. Actually amongst my godbrothers no one is qualified to become

acarya

.

So it is better not to mix with my godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them. This attempt was made previously by them, especially [names three

sannyasi

godbrothers] but somehow or other I saved the situation. This is going on. We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them.

 

When there is a conflict between opposing statements, they must be reconciled. Rupa Goswami has written:

 

virodho vakyayor yatra napramayam tad isyate

yathaviruddhata ca syat tatharthah kalpyate tayoh

 

 

 

"When two scriptural statements contradict each other, one is not taken as inauthentic. One should give the meaning in such a way that the contradiction is removed." (

Laghu-bhag.

1.212)

 

The previously mentioned personal instruction of Srila Prabhupada to approach Srila Sridhara Maharaja for philosophy was given three years after the Rupanuga letter was written. This letter of Srila Prabhupada must be harmonized with the other statements by Srila Prabhupada in order to get an accurate picture of Srila Prabhupada's feelings about Srila Sridhara Maharaja. When seen in the light of proper historical perspective, the circumstantial nature of these remarks can be realized because the subsequent friendly and intimate dealings between Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhara Maharaja did not change in the slightest even after Srila Prabhupada made such remarks. Further, Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhara Maharaja lived together harmonously during the majority of the problems of the Gaudiya Matha mentioned in the Rupanuga letter, [4] and subsequent to this Srila Prabhupada requested Srila Sridhara Maharaja to be the president of ISKCON:

 

Our relationship is very intimate. After the breakdown of the Gaudiya Matha, I wanted to organize another organization, making Sridhara Maharaja the head. (March 1973)

[5]

 

Unfortunately, taking the Rupanuga letter out of its true historical context, a handful of leaders have attempted to utilize it in order to discredit the deep and intimate relationship between Srila Sridhara Maharaja and Srila Prabhupada. Some of these leaders are fully aware of this deep relationship. Neither have we seen the letter written to Srila Prabhupada that elicited this response. A careful study of Prabhupada's many letters shows that quite often his letters are direct responses to particular circumstances and may even contradict other instructions in different situations.

According to Srila Sridhara Maharaja, a GBC was formed by the trustees of the Gaudiya Matha ten days after the disappearance of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, although it did not remain intact for long. Membership of the GBC was declined by Srila Sridhara Maharaja. The GBC elected an acarya and Srila Sridhara Maharaja helped advise the GBC when requested by them.

The War Is Over

In spite of Srila Prabhupada's sometimes strong criticism of his godbrothers, he also wrote positively about them:

 

Even amongst our godbrothers we have misunderstanding, but none of us is astray from the service of Krsna. My Guru Maharaja ordered us to execute his mission combinedly. Unfortunately, we are now separated. But none of us have stopped preaching Krsna consciousness. Even there was misunderstanding amongst the godbrothers of my Guru Maharaja, none of them deviated from the transcendental loving service of Krsna. (SP Ltr. Brahmananda, November 18, 1967)

 

The disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami are all godbrothers, and although there are some differences of opinion and we are not acting conjointly, every one of us is spreading this Krsna consciousness movement according to his capacity and producing many disciples to spread it all over the world. ( Bhag. 4.28.31)

 

So far as your question about controversy amongst the disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami Maharaja, that is a fact. But this controversy is not material. Just like in a national program, different political parties are sometimes in conflict and make propaganda against each other, but their central point is always service to the country. Similarly, amongst the disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati there may be some controversy, but the central point is how to preach the mission of His Divine Grace. (SP Ltr. Mandali Bhadra, July 28, 1969)

 

The above letter to Brahmananda was written early on, subsequent to which there were many problems with Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers. The above purport, however, was written quite a bit later.

Srila Prabhupada also said, "The war is over now," and he created the Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust for developing Gauda-mandala-bhumi and encouraging better relations and cooperation between ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers. Specifically, Srila Prabhupada instructed that this trust construct a kirtana hall at Srila Sridhara Maharaja's Matha and also one at the birthplace of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Yoga-pitha. [6]

When we examine the activities of these two Vaisnavas, we see the real intentions of these pure devotees of the Lord, fully absorbed in devotional service. One must examine all the facts impartially, not just make a superficial estimation based on one letter and general statements and pass a decree for all time. The mistakes made by the leaders of ISKCON were much more grave than the alleged mistakes of Srila Sridhara Maharaja [supporting an acarya who later fell down]. Within ISKCON the many mistakes of the leaders have been whitewashed, whereas Srila Sridhara Maharaja to this day is maligned. In light of an unbiased look at Srila Prabhupada's letters, conversations, and other instructions, it can be concluded that Srila Prabhupada did not discourage his disciples from receiving instruction (siksa) from Srila Sridhara Maharaja; on the contrary, he encouraged it. Similarly, an unbiased look at the siksa of Srila Sridhara Maharaja will show that his advice was perfect. When told of Srila Prabhupada's criticism of himself in the Rupanuga letter, Srila Sridhara Maharaja replied with a chuckle, "Just see the preaching of Swami Maharaja, he has not even spared me, his intimate friend!"

 

Notes:

[1] 770113RC.ALL

[2] 731211M2.LA in ref to SP Ltr Bon Mj July 7, 1975 & 760122MW.MAY

[3] 730317RC.MAY

[4] Lilamrta, Vol. 1, p. 100

[5] 730317RC.MAY

[6] 771030R2.VRN & 771106RC.VRN

Chapter Five

Back

[indulekhadasi]

 

Yes our Srila Prabhupada is a friend to all living beings but always CALLS A SPADE A SPADE!!

 

Regarding the Gaudiya math

 

"Disturbance is caused by ignorance; where there is no ignorance, there is no disturbance. The four Sannyasis may bark, but still the caravan will pass. There is every evidence that they are influenced by some of my fourth-class Godbrothers."Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Hayagriva 9/14/70:

 

"Do not be depressed. All along my godbrothers gave me only depression, repression, compression--but I continued strong in my duty. So never mind there is some discouragement, continue with your work in full enthusiastic Krishna Consciousness attitude of service." Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Gurudasa 8/29/72:

 

"Our big, big godbrothers in India, they could not preach Lord Gauranga's name all over India. They are simply inclined to criticize me, that my students call me Prabhupada. They could not do anything practical and tangible. They are satisfied with a temple and a few disciples begging alms for the maintenance of the temple. So, we can understand that they have all become sudras. How can they have interest in Bhagavad-gita. Although some of them have been born in brahmana families, but by quality are ALL sudras." Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Niranjana 5/21/73:

 

Haribol. In answer to all of this, this is what I have:

 

 

Thank you. Hare Krishna.

[suchandra]

 

How about Sridhara Maharaja?

This is called dreaming, do you think that anyone would know who's Sridhara Maharaja without Srila Prabhupada's preaching work? Prabhupada globally established the complete teachings of the Brahma-Madhava-Gaudiya-Sampradaya and then only people came to know that there is a Gaudiya-matha. And even it was like that that ISKCON apostates went there to Navadvip and not that any of the GM Vaishnavas would come to the West. If ISKCON would have come out as a strong united movement, without foolishly mobbing out so many devotees, the GM wouldnt have made any devotees on their own, in fact every single devotee of the GM came through ISKCON to GM.

[cbrahma]

Ah, the real issue surfaces. ISKCON vs G. Math.

I these camps really knew how much their bickering reduces their credibility as spiritual leaders.

[Shakti-Fan]

Seattle, Washington

October 22, 1968

 

I offer my humble prostrated obeisances at the lotus feet of all the Vaisnavas.

 

Sripada Trivikrama Maharaja,

 

Yesterday I received your letter dated October 12, and its contents were heart-breaking. Kindly inform me of the details of the sudden disappearance of Pujyapada Maharaja (Srila B.P., Kesava Maharaja). I had a very long-standing, intimate relationship with Srila Maharaja. When I used to visit Sridhara Mayapura, I was taken care of by Sripada Narahari Dada and Sripada Vinoda Dada with great affection. They were my extremely loving friends. Also in Calcutta, the senior Tirtha Maharaja, Professor Nisikanta Sannyal and Vasudeva Prabhu, were very dear to me. Afterwards I used to visit and associate freely with Sripada Sridhara Maharaja as if we were the closest of family members. Except for Sripada Sridhara Maharaja, all of the above-mentioned Vaisnavas have gradually disappeared. Our time is also approaching, so it will be best to have the opportunity to serve Srila Prabhupada as long as possible.

 

I have a very close connection with Sri Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti. Yourself, and particularly Sripada Vamana Maharaja, are well aware of the fact that I am one of the three persons who founded Sri Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti. We had conceived the idea of the formation of Sri Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti at Bosapada Lane, Calcutta, even before Srila (Kesava) Maharaja accepted sannyasa. Within a few days of the formation of the Samiti, Sri Narottamananda Brahmacari (presently Tridandi Swami Sri Srimad Bhakti Kamala Madhusudana Maharaja) separated himself from the Samiti. At that time Sripada Vamana Maharaja, who was then a brahmacari, visited our home at Sitakanta Banarji Lane; He made me the chief editor of the Bengali magazine, Sri Gaudiya Patrika.

 

Respecting the order of Srila (Kesava) Maharaja, I started writing articles for the Gaudiya Patrika regularly. Srila Maharaja greatly appreciated whatever I wrote. Thereafter, I was also appointed as the president of the Hindi magazine, Sri Bhagavata Patrika, and many of my articles were published in that. Afterwards I could not submit articles due to lack of time. Now I have become a resident of foreign lands and I have to travel twenty thousand miles every year. The greatest compassion of Srila Kesava Maharaja was to make me a sannyasi. I had taken a vow that I would never accept sannyasa, but Srila Maharaja forcibly gave it to me. He would certainly have been most pleased today to see the success of my preaching. Last year I visited him in Calcutta along with my disciples, and despite being bedridden, he was very pleased to receive us. I have complete confidence that both in his manifest presence and after his disappearance, he must be very pleased to see my widespread preaching of the message of Sriman Mahaprabhu in Western countries like America, Canada, England, Germany and Hawaii (Honolulu), situated in the pacific ocean, as well as eastern countries like Japan (Tokyo! and so on.)

 

I was a staunch grhamedi (one whose thoughts are absorbed in household affairs). Srila Prabhupada used to come to me in dreams from time to time and call me to renounce family life and come along with him. The dreams would frighten me and make me think that I would have to accept sannyasa. I didn't have any desire to take sannyasa. But upon the repeated insistence of Sripada Narayana Maharaja, Srila Kesava Maharaja bestowed boundless mercy upon this unwilling and blind person, by forcibly giving me sannyasa. It seems that this desire of Srila Prabhupada's was transmitted into his heart, and it was thus that my sannyasa was accomplished.

 

So I am eternally indebted to Srila (Kesava) Maharaja. Therefore, immediately after receiving your letter, I organized a viraha-sabha, an assembly at the Seattle temple to honor his disappearance. I am sending the condolence resolution of the meeting along with this letter. Kindly accept it as our Sraddhanjali, or humble homage. In my other centers (the list is enclosed), particularly London, Hamburg and Honolulu I have given instruction to arrange a viraha-sabha and offer Sraddhanjali homage likewise.

 

You will be glad to know that under my guidance I have formed three sankirtana parties comprising American youths and couples. One such party is currently traveling to all cities in America and I am also with this party. The second party of six devotees is performing kirtana at different places in London. The Indians living there are amazed to see them. They have given up their home land and come all the way to the Westen world to attain wealth and reputation, but the Americans are performing harinama-sankirtana. Somehow the preaching activities are going on very nicely. I am interested to know what kind of constitution you are forming. In this matter you will receive my complete cooperation, because I am a man of constructive ideas. I do not like destructive policies.

 

It was the desire of Srila Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura that Americans perform kirtana in Sridhama Mayapura, and that opportunity has now come. Unfortunately, those who have intruded into Mayapura consider it to be their personal property.

 

These days others are restricted from visiting that place. Srila Kesava Maharaja used to deal with these guru-tyagis (those who renounce their guru) and guru-bhogis (those who enjoy the property of their guru) with sword in hand. Anyway, last year he mentioned that he would arrange five acres of land for me in Sridhama Mayapura. You were present at that time. If you help me in this matter, I intend to make an asrama in Mayapura.

 

American boys and girls can visit and stay there and receive proper training. By our cooperation, preaching activities can be done very nicely. Therefore, I am eager to know the details of your constitution.

 

I am going to Montreal tomorrow. From there I will go to Santa Fe (New Mexico) and then to Los Angeles. I am sending the addresses of our various centers along with this letter. We are executing a plan to build New Vrndavana on three hundred acres of land. Kindly reply to the Los Angeles-Hollywood address as I will be staying three days in Montreal, seven days in Santa Fe and almost one month in Los Angeles.

 

pythivite ache yata nagaradi grama

sarvatra pracara haibe mora nama

 

Preaching can be spread extensively throughout the world on the basis of this system. I think that you will make your constitution directly in accordance with the above prediction. I hope your bhajana is going on nicely.

 

Your obedient servant,

Sri Bhaktivedanta Swami

[Svarupa]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Jaiva Dharma Glossary

The marginal or jiva potency of Sri Bhagavan. Because the jiva-sakti is included neither within the svarupa-sakti nor within maya-sakti, it is known as tatastha-sakti, the marginal potency. The word tata means a shore or bank, like the shoreline of an ocean; and the verbal root stha means to be situated. The shore is not part of the ocean, yet it is not part of the land which borders the ocean. One situated on the shoreline is known as tatastha. He is situated neither within the ocean, nor on the land. In his Paramatma-sandarbha, Jiva Gosvami has described the tatastha-sakti as follows: “The jiva-sakti is known as tatastha-sakti for two reasons. First of all it cannot be included within mayasakti for it is beyond maya-sakti. Secondly, although jiva-sakti is overcome by ignorance, the defect of being overcome in this way cannot touch the Paramatma situated in his heart. This is understood by the following analogy. We see that some portion of the sun’s rays can be covered by shade or clouds, but the sun itself cannot be covered. Similarly, the individual soul, who is vibhinnamsa, a separated part of Him, can be covered by maya, but Krsna Himself can never be covered. “From this it may be understood that the jiva-sakti is separate from the svarupa-sakti also for the following reason. Svarupa-sakti is present in the Paramatma. If the jiva-sakti were included within the svarupa-sakti, then the defect of the jivas being overcome by ignorance would be transposed upon the svarupa-sakti situated within the Paramatma as well, and ultimately upon the Paramatma Himself. Since that is not the case, it is evident that the jiva-sakti is not included within svarupa-sakti. Consequently, because the jiva-sakti is included neither within svarupa-sakti nor within mayasakti, it is known as tatastha-sakti”.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

 

Are you blind who haven't you the spiritual vision to see what jiva tatastha actually is as explained correctly by Sarva gattah

 

‘However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul’s original spiritual rasas.’ Prema-pradipa, p. 83

The correct translation of Jaiva Dharma -

 

The jiva-sakti is included neither within the svarupa-sakti (svarupa-sakti in this context cleary refers to superior personalised energy of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and His Vishnu tattva expansions) nor within maya-sakti (The inferior energy or the mahat-tattva, material creation that is the dream of Maha-Vishnu), it is known as tatastha-sakti, the marginal potency (that can choose to remain as their perpetual svarupa body serving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in Goloka in the eternal 'present', or choose to be covered by the temporary bodily vessels on offer within the mahat-tattva or material creation that takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti).

The word tata means a shore or bank, like the shoreline of an ocean; and the verbal root stha means to be situated. The shore is not part of the ocean, yet it is not part of the land which borders the ocean. One situated on the shoreline is known as tatastha. He is situated neither within the ocean, nor on the land.

(The above means the marginal living entities can choose to serve <st1:place><st1:City>Krishna</st1:City> <st1:State>AS</st1:State></st1:place> their original svarupa position within yhe perpetual 'present, or can choose to forget that genuine eternal bodily identity that is always their in Goloka or Vaikuntha and be covered [ike a cloud or dream] by the mahat-tattva's illusionary [temporary] ethereal and biological vessels. Tatastha also means being completely independent and in between the influence of the Superior and inferior energy (they are not Vishnu-tattva nor belong to the mahat-tattva), they have their own ‘marginal identity' that is not part of both the superior energy [Krishna, His Vishnu-tattva expansions] and the inferior energy the [maha-tattva or material lifeless energy] (that’s why it’s called marginal) yet paradoxically are 'dependant on Krishna in Goloka or Maha-Vishnu within the material creation or mahat-tattva)

In his Paramatma-sandarbha, Jiva Gosvami has described the tatastha-sakti as follows: “The jiva-sakti is known as tatastha-sakti for two reasons. First of all it cannot be included within mayasakti for it is beyond maya-sakti (This means the marginal living entity you and I are not part of the inferior energy or mahat-tattva, but can be covered by it). Secondly, although jiva-sakti is overcome by ignorance, the defect of being overcome in this way cannot touch the Paramatma (Maha-Vishnu - Kshirodakasayi Vishnu accompanies the marginal living entity as Paramatma ONLY while covered by ethereal and biological vessels because those vessels are the property of Paramatma (maha-Vishnu) situated in his heart of His bodily creations).

This is understood by the following analogy. We see that some portion of the sun’s rays can be covered by shade or clouds, but the sun itself cannot be covered. Similarly, the individual soul, who is vibhinnamsa, a separated part of Him (The marginal living entity in its full potential is perpetually as their svarupa body in their original position in th eternal ‘present’), can be covered by maya (can 'come down', not as their svarupa body, but rather in a dreaming conscious state called nitya-baddha that can occur due to being marginal and having the ability to choose), but Krsna Himself can never be covered. “From this it may be understood that the jiva-sakti (jiva-tattva) is separate from the svarupa-sakti (Vishnu-tattva) also for the following reason. Svarupa-sakti (Vishnu-tattva) is present in the Paramatma (Maha-Vishnu or Kshirodakasayi Vishnu).

If the jiva-sakti (marginal living entity) were included within the svarupa-sakti (Vishnu-tattva), then the defect of the jivas (marginal living entities) being overcome by ignorance would be transposed upon the svarupa-sakti (Vishnu-tattva) situated within as Paramatma or (maha-Vishnu - Kshirodakasayi Vishnu) well and ultimately upon the Paramatma Kshirodakasayi Vishnu (Maha-Vishnu) Himself.

Since that is not the case, it is evident that the jiva-sakti (marginal living entity) is not included within svarupa-sakti (Vishnu-tattva's). Consequently, because the jiva-sakti (marginal living entity) is included neither within svarupa-sakti (Vishnu-tattvas) nor within mayasakti (mahat-tattva), it is known as tatastha-sakti (neither part of the superior (Vishnu tattva's) or inferior energy (mahat-tattva or material creation”).

[suchandra]

 

Ah, the real issue surfaces. ISKCON vs G. Math.

I these camps really knew how much their bickering reduces their credibility as spiritual leaders.

What you mean by this, historical facts are suddenly bickering?

Historiography is bickering? Please look up "historiography", you won't find any explanation that historiography is something like bickering.

[Beggar]

 

Ah, the real issue surfaces. ISKCON vs G. Math.

I these camps really knew how much their bickering reduces their credibility as spiritual leaders.

This statement is a good example of the faulty logic of oversimplification.

From About.com:

 

The causation fallacies known as oversimplification and exaggeration occur whenever the series of actual causes for an event are either reduced or multiplied to the point where there is no longer a genuine, causal connection between the alleged causes and the actual effect. In other words, multiple causes are reduced to just one or a few (oversimplification) or a couple of causes are multiplied into many (exaggeration).

 

[Beggar]

 

The correct translation of Jaiva Dharma -

 

The jiva-sakti is included neither within the svarupa-sakti (svarupa-sakti in this context cleary refers to superior personalised energy of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and His Vishnu tattva expansions) nor within maya-sakti (The inferior energy or the mahat-tattva, material creation that is the dream of Maha-Vishnu), it is known as tatastha-sakti, the marginal potency (that can choose to remain as their perpetual svarupa body serving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in Goloka in the eternal 'present', or choose to be covered by the temporary bodily vessels on offer within the mahat-tattva or material creation that takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti).

I have intercepted a transmission. It reads: All Sleeper-Vadis, please return to your Mother Ship at once!

[Svarupa]

 

Haribol. In answer to all of this, this is what I have:

 

 

Thank you. Hare Krishna.

 

 

THIS IS VERY CLEAR TO ME, ALSO SPIRITUAL LIFE IS NOT A DEMOCRACY (DEMON CRAZIES)

"Actually amongst my Godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya. So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them. This attempt was made previously by them, especially Madhava Maharaja and Tirtha Maharaja and Bon Maharaja but somehow or other I saved the situation. This is going on. We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them."Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Rupanuga 4/28/74

"Regarding the Gaudiya Math books being circulated there, who is distributing? Who is sending these books? The Gaudiya Math does not sell our books, why we should sell their books. Who has introduced these books? Let me know. These books should not at all be circulated in our Society. Bhakti Vilas Tirtha is very much antagonistic to our society and he has no clear conception of devotional service. He is contaminated. Anyway, who has introduced these books? You say that you would read only one book if that was all that I had written, so you teach others to do like that. You have very good determination." Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Sukadeva 11/14/73

"In the latter days of my Guru Maharaja he was very disgusted. Actually, he left this world earlier, otherwise he would have continued to live for more years. Still he requested his disciples to form a strong Governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He never recommended anyone to be acarya of the Gaudiya Math. But Sridhara Maharaja is responsible for disobeying this order of Guru Maharaja, and he and others who are already dead unnecessarily thought that there must be one acarya. If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected. So Sridhara Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one acarya and later it proved a failure. The result is now everyone is claiming to be acarya even though they may be kanistha adhikari with no ability to preach. In some of the camps the acarya is being changed three times a year. Therefore we may not commit the same mistake in our ISKCON camp."Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Rupanuga 4/28/74

[Svarupa]

 

I have intercepted a transmission. It reads: All Sleeper-Vadis, please return to your Mother Ship at once!

 

"You should avoid strictly meeting with them. They are not after preaching but material gain and reputation and adoration. Otherwise why they are non cooperating with me? So no cooperation is possible. Do not think or indulge in loose talks. Be careful always. Let us do the duty of propagation sincerely and seriously on our own principles. Krsna and Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura are our only hope and they and helping us. Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Acutananda 6/8/74:

[Beggar]

As usual the right wing, xenophobic Sleeper-Vadis refuse to look at both sides of an issue (or any side other than their fanatical narrow minded viewpoints).

I've got a great idea, why don't you try to harmonize the statements below with the quotes you have given and then see what you can come up with?

If not then you must return to you Mother Ship at once for brain-reconditioning.

 

Even amongst our godbrothers we have misunderstanding, but none of us is astray from the service of Krsna. My Guru Maharaja ordered us to execute his mission combinedly. Unfortunately, we are now separated. But none of us have stopped preaching Krsna consciousness. Even there was misunderstanding amongst the godbrothers of my Guru Maharaja, none of them deviated from the transcendental loving service of Krsna. (SP Ltr. Brahmananda, November 18, 1967)

 

The disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami are all godbrothers, and although there are some differences of opinion and we are not acting conjointly, every one of us is spreading this Krsna consciousness movement according to his capacity and producing many disciples to spread it all over the world. ( Bhag. 4.28.31)

 

So far as your question about controversy amongst the disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami Maharaja, that is a fact. But this controversy is not material. Just like in a national program, different political parties are sometimes in conflict and make propaganda against each other, but their central point is always service to the country. Similarly, amongst the disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati there may be some controversy, but the central point is how to preach the mission of His Divine Grace. (SP Ltr. Mandali Bhadra, July 28, 1969)

 

[Svarupa]

 

Pass this on to your 'friends' at the Gaudiya math.

 

In actual fact NO-ONE FALLS DOWN, but not in the way Kundali/Satyanarayan explain in their nonsense book. Why? Because we are now only ‘dreaming’ or ‘thinking’ that we are not there in Goloka or Vaikuntha when in actual fact our svarupa body is ALWAYS there regardless. This understanding is for the benefit of those who are not polluted by such drival as "In Vaikuntha Not Even The Leaves Fall". Srila Prabhupada explains clearly to us that our original position is ALWAYS in Goloka and that we only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are fallen OR NOT THERE. In fact we are not fallen, we only 'IMAGINE, BELIEVE or have convienced ourselves that we are fallen due to our mistaken selfish desires.

 

There present day 'non-eventful' Gaudiya math and their followers argument is with the words from His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Clearly without any doubt whatsoever Srila Prabhupada tells us we ALL come down from Goloka.

 

I would like to add one more thing to this quote from sarva gattah - And avoid the nonsense gurus of the Gaudiya math!!

[indulekhadasi]

Haribol Everyone, this thread started out nicely but now there is too much Vaishnava aparadha, so I am leaving. Hare Krishna, if I offended anyone please forgive me.

 

Your servant eternally,

indulekhadasi

[Kulapavana]

 

Let's just consider the plain FACTS, go and listen to any lecture and examine what is actually being presented. Soon you'll find out, the presentation cannot be called preaching, nobody is getting convinced and the whole thing is merely set up like an Indian folklore presentation.

 

The FACTS I had in mind were the many positive statements Srila Prabhupada made about his godbrothers which are UNRECONCILABLE with the quote from the letter.

 

More importantly, it was SP who convinced people in India (including some of his godbrothers) not to see his western disciples as sudras by the virtue of their service and devotion to Krsna. Yet the same person is calling some truly advanced Vaishnavas "sudras" just because they did not travel to the West to preach... That just does not make much sense...

 

And I am very, very familiar with the preaching efforts of these "other" Vaishnavas and it is mosct certainly NOT a mere "Indian folklore" presentation. Some of the most profound thouhgts on Vaishnava theology and philosophy I found in the writings of Sridhara Maharaja and other GM gurus.

 

The efforts of SP disciples to minimize and offend these Vaishnavas are simply despicable. It is a very sad example of "guru wars" which is far more akin to the hooliganism of western soccer fans fighting with groupies of another team, then proper Vaishnava behavior.

[cbrahma]

 

This statement is a good example of the faulty logic of oversimplification.

From About.com:

Discerning causes can always called 'oversimplification'. But in this case it nails it right on the head, seeing how the lines are drawn between Math and ISKCON.

There is nothing 'over' simplified about the fact that bickering over a matter everybody has been admonished not to argue about, decreases the credibility of the parties involved.

[Kulapavana]

 

Haribol Everyone, this thread started out nicely but now there is too much Vaishnava aparadha, so I am leaving.

 

it is the soccer hooligans that should leave, but they will not as they are nothing without their mischief. SP disciples have become worse then Gaudiya Matha in terms of infighting and mutual acrimony. what new people will be inspired to take up Mahaprabhu's mission if Vaishnavas spit on each other and engage in brawls like some soccer fans? Is that spirituality? who will join? more hooligans?

[suchandra]

 

Haribol Everyone, this thread started out nicely but now there is too much Vaishnava aparadha, so I am leaving. Hare Krishna, if I offended anyone please forgive me.

 

Your servant eternally,

indulekhadasi

Punishment is supposed to be valuable in waking a feeling of guilt in the guilty party. In punishment people are looking for the actual instrument for that psychic reaction called “bad conscience” and “pangs of conscience.” In doing this, people still apply reality and psychology incorrectly to present issues—and how much more incorrectly to the greater part of man’s constitution - his eternal constitution!

[sevabhakta]

 

The FACTS I had in mind were the many positive statements Srila Prabhupada made about his godbrothers which are UNRECONCILABLE with the quote from the letter.

 

More importantly, it was SP who convinced people in India (including some of his godbrothers) not to see his western disciples as sudras by the virtue of their service and devotion to Krsna. Yet the same person is calling some truly advanced Vaishnavas "sudras" just because they did not travel to the West to preach... That just does not make much sense...

 

And I am very, very familiar with the preaching efforts of these "other" Vaishnavas and it is mosct certainly NOT a mere "Indian folklore" presentation. Some of the most profound thouhgts on Vaishnava theology and philosophy I found in the writings of Sridhara Maharaja and other GM gurus.

 

The efforts of SP disciples to minimize and offend these Vaishnavas are simply despicable. It is a very sad example of "guru wars" which is far more akin to the hooliganism of western soccer fans fighting with groupies of another team, then proper Vaishnava behavior.

 

Not to take away from the good points you are making in general about this phenomenon, but that particular quote does not reflect a categorical accusation by Srila Prabhupada. Although I can see how in an emotionally charged topic like this how it could be read that way, along with the other quotes thrown in from other contexts, it is potent voodoo.

 

When he was speaking of his Big Big Godbrothers, that is not an all inclusive statement. In his mind, he knew which ones he was speaking of. And later in the quote goes on to call them sudras. Which by the way, if a sudra is submissive to whichever Vaisnava is directing him, he is a Vaisnava in good standing.

 

So yes, these great offenders are using Srila Prabhupada's quotes in a twisted way that does not reflect the reality of his mental posture at the moment, evidenced by the quotes of praise and love regarding certain Godbrothers.

 

So last night before taking rest I posted a sort of warning of things to come from these knuckle dragging apes, and sure enough I wake up and they are BACK to defaming Godhead, only amping it up a notch. Told ya so.

 

Hare Krsna

[Beggar]

 

I would like to add one more thing to this quote from sarva gattah - And avoid the nonsense gurus of the Gaudiya math!!

 

If Srila Prabhupada were physically present, he would severely chastise you for your statement. The only association you have is with other aparadhis, some of which are more offensive than even you, who you therefore consider to be superior assoiciation. But superior association means association with persons who are more pure and more advanced but when one is completely deluded they may will associate with persons who will simply reinforce their hellish mentality. Yes, what you are manifesting on this forum is just that, a hellish mentality. A soft hearted Vaisnava would never speak like this. Even a partially sane devotee would consider the fact they may not know everything, so better to use caution. "Fools rush in were angels fear to tread".

[sevabhakta]

 

it is the soccer hooligans that should leave, but they will not as they are nothing without their mischief. SP disciples have become worse then Gaudiya Matha in terms of infighting and mutual acrimony. what new people will be inspired to take up Mahaprabhu's mission if Vaishnavas spit on each other and engage in brawls like some soccer fans? Is that spirituality? who will join? more hooligans?

 

As an example, I know that you don't mean all SP disciples are worse than the GM in those terms, but that is what you said. This is a common method of conversational hyperbole.

 

The context of a conversation is often difficult to comprehend essentially by reading it on paper as opposed to being there. Not impossible, just a little more difficult.

 

Hari Bol