Will Prabhupada said hold up in 21st Century?

[Kulapavana]

 

Then why don't you accept Srila Prabhupadas teachings that we are ALL presently in Goloka but presently on 'think' we are not?

 

If I was thinking this was what Prabhupada really taught I would have rejected him completely as such teaching goes against the teachings of ALL legitimate Vaisnhava sampradayas.

 

This kind of idiocies can only be propagated by Western ex-dopeheads who still cant think straight...

[Kulapavana]

 

Then why don't you accept Srila Prabhupadas teachings that we are ALL presently in Goloka but presently on 'think' we are not?

 

The belief that living entities are not actually present inside their material bodies here in this material world but only dreaming they are here goes 100% against ALL Vaishnava teachings. If you think this is what Prabhupada was teaching I can only feel sorry for your ignorance. Being present in their bodies means that they are fallen. There is no way around it.

 

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[Vigraha]

 

The moon again. Sheesh. Personally I don't care where the moon is or if the Bhagavatam was correct in it's cosmology or if Prabhupada was correct in presenting the Bhagavatam version of cosmology or not.

 

We must ask ourselves why we approach such a person as Srila Prabhupada. Are we trying to get an astronomy degree from his association or are we trying to get an idea of who God is and how to get to know Him?

 

What to speak of puny pieces of dust like the moon entire cosmic manifestations have been created and destroyed while we linger on in the material world for the want of transcendental knowledge.

 

You may have the moon earth distance down to the inch but at the time of death how will that help you?

 

Ha! ha! ha! ha! Good one theist

[Guruvani]

 

Then why don't you accept Srila Prabhupadas teachings that we are ALL presently in Goloka but presently on 'think' we are not?

 

If you can't prove that claim with an exact quote then you should probably stop making false statements attributed to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Srila Prabhupada never said such nonsense.

 

The jiva is in the brahmajyoti and thinks he is fallen.

He is not in Goloka and thinking himself fallen.

 

The jiva is fallen from brahman not from Goloka.

[Guruvani]

 

Then why don't you accept Srila Prabhupadas teachings that we are ALL presently in Goloka but presently on 'think' we are not?

Shastra has a different conclusion than this fairytale from ISKCON.

 

 

patita-aśru-mukhyāḥ — of the one who fell down with tears in the eyes; SB 1.15.10

patitā — fallen down; SB 4.28.49

patita — fallen down; SB 5.1.36

patita — fallen; SB 8.10.40

patitā — fell down; SB 10.7.24

patita — fallen; SB 10.23.30

patitā — fallen; SB 10.65.27

patita — of those who are fallen; SB 10.69.18

patita — of those fallen; SB 10.82.48

patita-pāvana — the deliverer of fallen souls; CC Adi 5.54

patita-pāvana — deliverer of the fallen; CC Adi 10.120

patita — of those fallen; CC Madhya 1.81

patita-pāvana — the savior of the fallen souls; CC Madhya 1.188

patita-pāvana — deliverance of the fallen; CC Madhya 1.191

patita — fallen; CC Madhya 1.191

patita — fallen; CC Madhya 1.196

patita-pāvana — deliverer of the fallen; CC Madhya 1.199

patita-pāvana — savior of the fallen; CC Madhya 1.200

patita-pāvana — the deliverer of all fallen souls; CC Madhya 8.38

patita — of those fallen; CC Madhya 13.136

patita — fallen; CC Madhya 15.264

patita ha-ile — when one has fallen; CC Madhya 15.264

patita-pāvana — deliverer of the fallen souls; CC Madhya 20.62

patita — fallen; CC Madhya 20.99

patita pāmare — very fallen and sinful; CC Antya 16.20

This new fairytale that the fallen conditioned jivas are not fallen is just another ISKCON fairytale.

[suchandra]

 

The belief that living entities are not actually present inside their material bodies here in this material world but only dreaming they are here goes 100% against ALL Vaishnava teachings. If you think this is what Prabhupada was teaching I can only feel sorry for your ignorance. Being present in their bodies means that they are fallen. There is no way around it.

 

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Could be that like they consider that poor people are God, and call them by the name daridra-narayana, or "poor Gods", similiarly somewhere the understanding has sprung up, we're eternal servants of God, but because conditioned by the material energy, "poor nitya-siddhas"?

[Kulapavana]

 

Could be that like they consider that poor people are God, and call them by the name daridra-narayana, or "poor Gods", similiarly somewhere the understanding has sprung up, we're eternal servants of God, but because conditioned by the material energy, "poor nitya-siddhas"?

 

such a sentimental approach may be excused or even justified for the sake of preaching or making a particular point, but it should never be confused with the actual truth or tattva. I understand why Prabhupada told stories like falling from Vaikuntha to his disciples - it was similar to the feel-good stories told to frightened children - but I will not forsake the siddhanta of our sampradaya in order to prove that such fairytales told by my guru were actually true.

 

when adults still cling to the tooth-fairy stories they heard in their childhood they can hardly be seen as mentally healthy.

[sevabhakta]

 

such a sentimental approach may be excused or even justified for the sake of preaching or making a particular point, but it should never be confused with the actual truth or tattva. I understand why Prabhupada told stories like falling from Vaikuntha to his disciples - it was similar to the feel-good stories told to frightened children - but I will not forsake the siddhanta of our sampradaya in order to prove that such fairytales told by my guru were actually true.

 

when adults still cling to the tooth-fairy stories they heard in their childhood they can hardly be seen as mentally healthy.

 

And the Acarya who is completely surrendered to Supersoul's direction tells each and every person they meet exactly what Supersoul wanted them to hear, each according to their evolutionary moment, which Supersoul knows perfectly well, and it is certainly within Supersoul's capabilities to use his TRANSPARENT via media to impart exactly what he wants each soul to hear. This is the system.

 

 

SB 1.6.23 Translation

 

By service of the Absolute Truth, even for a few days, a devotee attains firm and fixed intelligence in Me. Consequently he goes on to become My associate in the transcendental world after giving up the present deplorable material worlds.

 

Purport - Serving the Absolute Truth means rendering service unto the Absolute Personality of Godhead under the direction of the bona fide spiritual master, who is a transparent via medium between the Lord and the neophyte devotee. The neophyte devotee has no ability to approach the Absolute Personality of Godhead by the strength of his present imperfect material senses, and therefore under the direction of the spiritual master he is trained in transcendental service of the Lord. And by such training, even for some days, the neophyte devotee gets intelligence in such transcendental service, which leads him ultimately to get free from perpetual inhabitation in the material worlds and to be promoted to the transcendental world to become one of the liberated associates of the Lord in the kingdom of God.

 

So, only a wise and fully surrendered Spiritual Master can be held blameless for the techniques such as TECHNICALLY stating the truth Like we "were" and "are" all serving Krsna in Goloka, while using the broadest definition of a few terms, which tends to baffle some less intelligent and narrow minded devotees who can't yet perceive the simultaneous oneness and difference in these statements.

 

In terms of development of a Vedic expression of simple pious human qualities during this dark age, the "people in general" (everyone but intermediate or advanced Vaisnavas), are probably less than 15 years old by vedic standards, no matter how old their bodies are.

 

We all needed to hear a fairy tale or two, because we were and still are rather dull.

 

So perhaps if we can remember where we came from, it will be easier to empathize and relate with those still "dreaming" they are anywhere but present with Krsna, in some shape or form, and believing some fairy tale instead of participating directly in Krnsa's Sankirtana Lila.

 

That said, it is nice to find some who strive to penetrate deeper and deeper to the heart of the transcendental contradictions as we learn to please the all attractive autocrat despot and liar. Sri Krsna.

[Ashvatama]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Kulapavana

The belief that living entities are not actually present inside their material bodies here in this material world but only dreaming they are here goes 100% against ALL Vaishnava teachings. If you think this is what Prabhupada was teaching I can only feel sorry for your ignorance. Being present in their bodies means that they are fallen. There is no way around it.

 

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The sound of the heartbeat, the pulse of life gushing blood through thousands of arteries, veins and capillaries lending sensation to the nerve network entwined in and about organs and muscles and flesh, all bound by the bodily structure encased with a thin layer of skin in harmony with our subtle impulse, is our presentation to the world. This biological machine, city of nine gates, is a sleeping convenience to enact our wishes. Lord Krsna says:

“One who identifies his self as the inert body composed of mucus, bile and air, who assumes his wife and family are permanently his own, who thinks an earthen image or the land of his birth is worshipable, or who sees a place of pilgrimage as merely the water there, but who never identifies with, feels kinship with, worships or even visits those who are wise in spiritual truth – such a person is no better than a cow or an ass.” - SB. 10.84.13.

So real is our place on earth that we talk and move, and cause others to see and talk to us within a shared collective dream, encased again within a dark, hollow, multilayered golden globe of the cosmos, which is a mere cell particle exuded from a pore of Sri Maha-Visnu’s skin. Such creative sleep has no escape route, bar one – to awaken. Sri Narada Muni says:

“Narada continued: O you who are free from all sinful activity! No one can counteract the effects of fruitive activity simply by manufacturing a different activity devoid of Krsna consciousness. All such activity is due to our ignorance. When we have a troublesome dream, we cannot relieve it with a troublesome hallucination. One can counteract a dream only by awaking. Similarly, our material existence is due to our ignorance and illusion. Unless we awaken to Krsna consciousness, we cannot be relieved of such dreams. For the ultimate solution to all our problems, we must awaken to Krsna consciousness.” - SB. 4.29.34.

When we sleep and dream of combinations of past and present experiences, producing fantastic, weird or fearsome escapades from our mortal body, supervised by the Supersoul, they are often forgotten forays into the subtle realm. But our dreams are dreams within a dream within a dream. Srila Prabhupada writes:

“This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes:

yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga

nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah

This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” - Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

The Supreme Lord is absolute. Whatever He does is real. When He dreams His mystic slumber into which we are participating, is also reality. Being part of Maha-Visnu’s dream is so bewildering that it holds ever more surprises for us, and the Lord too. He watches sometimes with amazement what is happening here.

“Although the Supreme Personality of Godhead constantly watches the activities of this world, no one sees Him. However, one should not think that because no one can see Him, He does not see, for His power to see is never diminished. Therefore, everyone should worship the Supersoul, who always stays with the individual soul as a friend.” - SB. 8.1.11.

For those who are awakening, the worship of the Supersoul means accepting and worshipping the spiritual master who is no different from Paramatma. The Gita Mahatmya of the Padma Purana also relates how Maha-Visnu watches His yoga-nidra in action.

Srila Prabhupada used a host of words throughout his writings to describe the dreaming condition: illusion, delusion, matter, Maya, distress, birth and death, bewilderment, doubt, fear, material life, sense gratification, sinful activities, misdeeds, temporary, misery, fruitive activities, I and mine, mental speculation, external energy, lusty desires, fallen, false prestige, fools, rascals and so on.

Open reading his books one will find matters pertaining to sleeping or waking circumstances because he is after all an awakened soul who came to mingle in our miserable dream world to sound the alarm, and he continues his guidance for sincere awakers.

Restricted as we are while traversing our mutual dreamscapes, Krsna is always introducing different waking devices: His unlimited avatars, the Vedas, His pure devotees and His holy names. His kindness knows no bounds. Lord Chaitanya said:

“Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore the illusory energy [Maya] gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence.” - CC. Madhya 20.117.

Our body and the pleasures and pains associated with it, serve to deepen our sleeping condition.

kota nidra jao maya – piscira kole….” We have slept for so long on the lap of the witch called Maya.”

If by some good fortune we hear a sound, feel a touch, receive a glance, experience a taste or smell an aroma issuing from an awakened source, it should beckon us to realize only one objective – to awaken to the orders of the spiritual master who will engage all of our senses in Krsna’s service. Srila Prabhupada says:

“Thus the change of the gross body is not very important, but the change of the subtle body is important. The Krsna consciousness movement is educating people to enlighten the subtle body.” - Purport to SB. 4.29.61.

The waking process may take some time. If it is very rare to attain bhava where our true eternally awakened self is developed, shedding the gross and subtle dream body, then only a greedy, hungry effort, anxious to adopt all positive awakening procedures may expedite matters. Lord Krsna states:

“After many births and deaths, he who actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knows Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.” - BG. 7.19.

While we are awakening, any acquirement of mercy can be passed on to other sleeping souls, to sound gentle informed alarm bell talks. When awakened souls gather to converse about the awoken reality personified [Krsna] and His nearest and dearest, such enlivening chatter will keep us awake and entice us towards Krsna Prema.

“O Narada, I am not in Vaikuntha nor am I in the hearts of the yogis. I remain where My devotees glorify My name, form, qualities and transcendental pastimes.” - Padma Purana.

In the meantime while we are here staying awake, perhaps we can also, like Maha-Visnu, observe the incredible workings of this dream world, if even as a reminder to keep alert, or to be interestingly occupied.

“Krsna consciousness means constantly associating with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in such a mental state that the devotee can observe the cosmic manifestation exactly as the Supreme Personality of Godhead does. Such observation is not always possible, but it becomes manifest exactly like the dark planet known as Rahu, which is observed in the presence of the full moon.” - SB. 4.29.69.

The entire millions of Vedic verses though varied in subject matter, really direct us toward sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana. One who knows the real meaning of the scriptures will simply chant Hare Krsna, for this is the alpha and omega of all sacrifices. If we obtain good fortune in this way, we will have progressed from susupti to awakening to awake.

“Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” - SB. 4.29.2b.

Your servant, Kesava Krsna dasa – GRS.

[Kulapavana]

 

The sound of the heartbeat, the pulse of life gushing blood through thousands of arteries, veins and capillaries lending sensation to the nerve network entwined in and about organs and muscles and flesh, all bound by the bodily structure encased with a thin layer of skin in harmony with our subtle impulse, is our presentation to the world. This biological machine, city of nine gates, is a sleeping convenience to enact our wishes.

 

While it is true that our existence in this world is usually conducted in a dream like state of consciousnes, it does not mean this world is not real. Just because you are now dreaming in your bed it does not mean that the bed does not exist, or that you are not really in your bed.

 

In BG 16.8 Lord Krsna says: asatyam apratistham te jagad ahur "They (demonic natured people) say the world is not real and without a foundation" and SP starts the purport by saying: "The demonic conclude that the world is phantasmagoria".

[theist]

Dreams are real. Real dreams. Illusion does not mean it is not there but only that it is not what it appears to be.

 

When measured up against spiritual existence it can be said that matter is non-existent. But that does not mean it is not there at all. It just means that the definitive meaning to something having true existence is that it is based in eternity.

 

A simple example is a child playing in the sand at the beach. He sees a great castle standing high on the cliff overlooking the shore. In his play he builds a replica of that castle out of the wet sand.

 

When someone sees the castle the child has built they call it a castle because of the resemblance that sand has at the moment to a real castle. But the relity is it is not a castle at all. Just a child's molding of the formless sand. When the tide comes in or when the sun dries the sand it will lose it's "castle"shape and merge back into the totality of sand.

 

Sand represents the dream matter(earth water etc.) that is used by the dreaming soul to give form to his imaginings and attempts to build his own kingdom in this world apart from Krsna.

 

To hear devotees criticizing other devotees because they accept this world is a dream is truly bizarre. Of course it is a dream.

[Kulapavana]

Again, for the sleepervadi bunch:

 

Just because you are now dreaming in your bed it does not mean that the bed does not exist, or that you are not really in your bed.

News Flash: You are here in the material world, you are fallen, and you have various dreams. Right now you dream that you are NOT here, but in the Vaikuntha planets, and that your fallen life is just a bad dream....

[Vigraha]

 

Again, for the sleepervadi bunch:

 

Just because you are now dreaming in your bed it does not mean that the bed does not exist, or that you are not really in your bed.

News Flash: You are here in the material world, you are fallen, and you have various dreams. Right now you dream that you are NOT here, but in the Vaikuntha planets, and that your fallen life is just a bad dream....

Dream simply means illusion and illusion means that which is temporary, try and humbly undertand that no one is dreaming in the mundane way you are presenting.

Srila Prabhupada - "we are dreaming life after life. As human being, as animal, as tree, as aquatics. Jalaja nava-laksani sthavara laksa-vimsati. This evolutionary process is going on".Bombay, December 27, 1972

<font face="Times New Roman">Srila Prabhupada - "You are right when you say our past life is a dream only. Just like at night we see so many dreams and in daytime we forget everything. Similarly we forget everything of our past life and as such so long we do not be reposed to our spiritual factual life, all these changes of lives one after another are considered to be dreams" Letter to Nandakisora, <st1:date month="<font" face="Times New Roman">[size=3>

<font]<st1:place">Krishna</st1:date> can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38) </font][color=></st1:date>

Srila Prabhupada "Just as a dreamer dreams his being fast asleep and dreaming of things (friends, relations, business, etc.), which are really inside him, and when he wakes up from this dream to the original one, imagines himself awake though he is still dreaming, even so the perceiver should realise this waking (state) as a mere dream created by Maya, the jiva’s own deluding power.

Therefore one should break the illusion of this waking state by fixing one’s attention only on Me, its Witness. Know Me to be the transcendental Reality, the very Self (of the dreaming jiva), Brahman, the Consciousness which experiences and transcends the three states of waking, dreaming and dreamless sleep.