The correct understanding of what time is.

[realist]

 

theory is such a waste of time ...... better to chant .....

hare krishna.....

 

I remember once Bhagavan 'goswami' gave a lecture years ago and said to the Sunday feast crowd, 'come and join our ISKCON and we will do even the thinking for you, just chant Hare Krishna and we will tell you what to do and when to do it, that’s the real meaning of surrender, don't think, just chant Hare Krishna give up your individuality and do what we tell you to do, Surrender Prabhooo - Is that nonsense comment what Krishna Consciousness and our Srila Prabhupada really about? Fortunately that immature, restricted dictatorial patronizing character destroying version of ISKCON no longer exists because such a lie can never be maintained, except with some <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Temples</st1:place></st1:City> and Swamis and their 'yes' followers that are still stagnated and living in a 80s and 90s time warp.

I don't know about Vigraga but I chant Hare Krishna, read Prabhupada's books, listen to His lectures and morning walks and study the many letters he wrote to understand and be part of his REAL ISKCON society that establishes the facts of what the eternal 'present' is (Goloka time) and what temporary time is in the mahat-tattva. Srila Prabhupada encouraged us to write down our realizations and not just be mindless parrots quoting slokas and mantras

[Guruvani]

so, vigraha is going to tell us all the correct understanding of what time is?

On another thread he was spouting off that there is no time in the spiritual world.

I exposed his bogus understanding and presented shastric proof that there is time in the spiritual world of Vaikuntha.

 

So, now he starts a topic and proposed to tell us all what the proper understanding of time is?

 

Why does he always come off as the teacher and master when he has shown time and again that he doen't have a good grasp on Gaudiya siddhanta?

 

Vigraha wrote:

 

Originally Posted by Vigraha

It is only because of the absence of the time factor that there is no disappearance of ones 'svarupa' in Goloka, therefore it is always there serving Krishna regardless. Eventually when one one’s 'dreaming imaginary self or the nitya-baddha consciousness is dissipated, and one has returned to their full spiritual potential and awareness of their nitya-siddha-svarupa body serving Krishna. Once one has returned one realizes themself as the endless nitya-siddha-svarupa-rasa body, ones so called fall down will be as if it never happened. "Never happened" because there is no past tense as we know it in Goloka.

 

 

I replied:

Another fairytale myth that there is no time in the spiritual world.

There is time in the spiritual world.

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.11.38

 

kālo 'yaḿ dvi-parārdhākhyo

nimeṣa upacaryate

avyākṛtasyānantasya

hy anāder jagad-ātmanaḥ

 

SYNONYMS

kālaḥ — eternal time; ayam — this (as measured by Brahmā's duration of life); dvi-parārdha-ākhyaḥ — measured by the two halves of Brahmā's life; nimeṣaḥ — less than a second; upacaryate — is so measured; avyākṛtasya — of one who is unchanged; anantasya — of the unlimited; hi — certainly; anādeḥ — of the beginningless; jagat-ātmanaḥ — of the soul of the universe.

 

 

TRANSLATION

The duration of the two parts of Brahmā's life, as above mentioned, is calculated to be equal to one nimeṣa [less than a second] for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is unchanging and unlimited and is the cause of all causes of the universe.

 

 

Purport (excerpt):

In the spiritual world there is undoubtedly time, but it has no control over activities. Time is unlimited, and the spiritual world is also unlimited, since everything there exists on the absolute plane. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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So, your fairytale can't hold up on the fairytale that there is no time in the spiritual world because that fairytale is also another ISKCON myth.

[Guruvani]

Vigraha created his dreamervadi concoction on the basis that there is no time in the spiritual world.

Shastra says there is time in the spiritual world.

So, the dreamervadi nonsense was concocted off of a false pretense.

Therefore it is bogus because it was fabricated off of a false premise and conclusions that contradict Lord Krishna and the shastra.

[realist]

 

so, vigraha is going to tell us all the correct understanding of what time is?

On another thread he was spouting off that there is no time in the spiritual world.

I exposed his bogus understanding and presented shastric proof that there is time in the spiritual world of Vaikuntha.

 

So, now he starts a topic and proposed to tell us all what the proper understanding of time is?

 

Why does he always come off as the teacher and master when he has shown time and again that he doen't have a good grasp on Gaudiya siddhanta?

 

Vigraha wrote:

 

 

I replied:

Another fairytale myth that there is no time in the spiritual world.

There is time in the spiritual world.

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0> <TBODY><TR> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0> Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.11.38

 

kālo 'yaḿ dvi-parārdhākhyo

nimeṣa upacaryate

avyākṛtasyānantasya

hy anāder jagad-ātmanaḥ

 

SYNONYMS

kālaḥ — eternal time; ayam — this (as measured by Brahmā's duration of life); dvi-parārdha-ākhyaḥ — measured by the two halves of Brahmā's life; nimeṣaḥ — less than a second; upacaryate — is so measured; avyākṛtasya — of one who is unchanged; anantasya — of the unlimited; hi — certainly; anādeḥ — of the beginningless; jagat-ātmanaḥ — of the soul of the universe.

 

 

TRANSLATION

The duration of the two parts of Brahmā's life, as above mentioned, is calculated to be equal to one nimeṣa [less than a second] for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is unchanging and unlimited and is the cause of all causes of the universe.

 

 

Purport (excerpt):

In the spiritual world there is undoubtedly time, but it has no control over activities. Time is unlimited, and the spiritual world is also unlimited, since everything there exists on the absolute plane.

</TD> </TR> </TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

So, your fairytale can't hold up on the fairytale that there is no time in the spiritual world because that fairytale is also another ISKCON myth.

 

ISKCON is Prabhupada. Also there is Goloka time, which is the eternal present, and material time, which is divided up into past, present and future. The diffence between Goloka time and material time is time in Goloka is imperishable, meaning everything is always there without any beginning or ending, while material time is temporary, perishable and always decaying, I think thats what Vigraha is saying

[Beggar]

 

ISKCON is Prabhupada. Also there is Goloka time, which is the eternal present, and material time, which is divided up into past, present and future. The diffence between Goloka time and material time is time in Goloka is imperishable, meaning everything is always there without any beginning or ending, while material time is temporary, perishable and always decaying, I think thats what Vigraha is saying

When one goes "back home, back to Godhead", and enters into Krsna's pastimes it's as if he never left, but only to an extent. In Srila Sanatana Goswami's Brhad Bhagavatmrta, the Gopa Kumar is embraced by Krsna and they both faint in ecstacy. Krsna then tells him, "how could you stay away so long from your real home? I know about all the troubles and sacrifices you made for Me on your journey back home." Much of the Gopa Kumar's journey took place in the realm of material time, yet Krsna accepts it here as a reality. This means as Srila Prabhupada has stated many times that the material world and therefore material time are real, but temporary. The dream theory is based on taking analogies as pure fact and not just analogies. Our material existence is "like" a dream, but dreams are not real in the gross aspect. The gross matter that we are presently encaged in is real but temporary. The Sleeper-Vad Heresey is defeated by Srila Sanatana Goswami's Brhat Bhagavatmrta as well as Srila Bhaktivinoda's Jaiva Dharma and cannot stand in their light. The swarupa of the jiva or living entity is not engaging in Krsna lila in Goloka while he dreams that he is in the material world. The "nitya siddha krsna prema sadhya kabu naya" verse of C.C. means that we are nitya siddha in the sense that our eternal swarupa is existing in seed form, only. It can only become developed by sadhu sanga and hearing and chanting under divine guidance.

[Beggar]

Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Bhagavad-gita - As It Is - Introduction

 

Isvara (the Supreme Lord), jiva (the living entity), prakrti (nature), kala (eternal time) and karma (activity) are all explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Out of these five, the Lord, the living entities, material nature and time are eternal. The manifestation of prakrti may be temporary, but it is not false. Some philosophers say that the manifestation of material nature is false, but according to the philosophy of Bhagavad-gita or according to the philosophy of the Vaisnavas, this is not so. The manifestation of the world is not accepted as false; it is accepted as real, but temporary. It is likened unto a cloud which moves across the sky, or the coming of the rainy season, which nourishes grains. As soon as the rainy season is over and as soon as the cloud goes away, all the crops which were nourished by the rain dry up. Similarly, this material manifestation takes place at a certain interval, stays for a while and then disappears. Such are the workings of prakrti. But this cycle is working eternally. Therefore prakrti is eternal; it is not false. The Lord refers to this as "My prakrti." This material nature is the separated energy of the Supreme Lord, and similarly the living entities are also the energy of the Supreme Lord, although they are not separated but eternally related.

 

[new---new]

More time wasted .....

Better to chant ,stick to sattvik diet ,follow the guru.....

Understanding can come either through "theory" or through "direct experience"...

Theoretical understanding is an ever shifting "goal post"

Only understanding derived from direct experience can be sustained....

Experience will come FASTER to those who sincerely follow the rules and if they can get guru's grace......

the guru can be a iskconite ,non iskconite,shaiva or shakta.....

the STUDENT who accepts a theoretical belief system (vaishnavism ,shaivism,shaktism) has absolutely "NO AUTHORITY".... and his /her ENDORSEMENT of any system is USELESS because his/her understanding of shastras is a "FROG IN A WELL UNDERSTANDING"

"The scriptures cannot be understood without guru's grace".

All belief systems are abusive to a STUDENT because they force him/her to believe things which are ILLOGICAL.however when followed according to the rules can be VERY HELPFUL.

 

better to follow the rules ,chant etc a word to the wise.The rebels however will ultimately gain better theoretical understanding at the risk of diluting his/her faith in his/her own beliefs.

 

Follow not your heart ...follow not your brain .......follow your intution ... the antaryamin.

[realist]

 

When one goes "back home, back to Godhead", and enters into Krsna's pastimes it's as if he never left, but only to an extent. In Srila Sanatana Goswami's Brhad Bhagavatmrta, the Gopa Kumar is embraced by Krsna and they both faint in ecstacy. Krsna then tells him, "how could you stay away so long from your real home? I know about all the troubles and sacrifices you made for Me on your journey back home." Much of the Gopa Kumar's journey took place in the realm of material time, yet Krsna accepts it here as a reality. This means as Srila Prabhupada has stated many times that the material world and therefore material time are real, but temporary. The dream theory is based on taking analogies as pure fact and not just analogies. Our material existence is "like" a dream, but dreams are not real in the gross aspect. The gross matter that we are presently encaged in is real but temporary. The Sleeper-Vad Heresey is defeated by Srila Sanatana Goswami's Brhat Bhagavatmrta as well as Srila Bhaktivinoda's Jaiva Dharma and cannot stand in their light. The swarupa of the jiva or living entity is not engaging in Krsna lila in Goloka while he dreams that he is in the material world. The "nitya siddha krsna prema sadhya kabu naya" verse of C.C. means that we are nitya siddha in the sense that our eternal swarupa is existing in seed form, only. It can only become developed by sadhu sanga and hearing and chanting under divine guidance.

 

I prefer to use the words from Prabhupada's teachings that we ONLY 'think' or 'imagine' we are fallen when in actual fact we are never fallen. Just like a cloud covers the sun it does not mean the sun is not there similarly, we presently cannot see our svarupa body but it eternally is there in Goloka - like the cloud covering the sun, this material world covers our vision and view of who we eternally are as our svarupa body.

This is easy to understand if you want to or desire too realizes this.

[realist]

 

More time wasted .....

Better to chant ,stick to sattvik diet ,follow the guru.....

Understanding can come either through "theory" or through "direct experience"...

Theoretical understanding is an ever shifting "goal post"

Only understanding derived from direct experience can be sustained....

Experience will come FASTER to those who sincerely follow the rules and if they can get guru's grace......

the guru can be a iskconite ,non iskconite,shaiva or shakta.....

the STUDENT who accepts a theoretical belief system (vaishnavism ,shaivism,shaktism) has absolutely "NO AUTHORITY".... and his /her ENDORSEMENT of any system is USELESS because his/her understanding of shastras is a "FROG IN A WELL UNDERSTANDING"

"The scriptures cannot be understood without guru's grace".

All belief systems are abusive to a STUDENT because they force him/her to believe things which are ILLOGICAL.however when followed according to the rules can be VERY HELPFUL.

 

better to follow the rules ,chant etc a word to the wise.The rebels however will ultimately gain better theoretical understanding at the risk of diluting his/her faith in his/her own beliefs.

 

Follow not your heart ...follow not your brain .......follow your intution ... the antaryamin.

 

I don't know about YOU but I chant Hare Krishna, read Prabhupada's books, listen to His lectures and morning walks and study the many letters he wrote to understand and be part of his REAL ISKCON society that establishes the facts of what the eternal 'present' is (Goloka time) and what temporary time is in the mahat-tattva. Srila Prabhupada encouraged us to write down our realizations and not just be mindless parrots quoting slokas and mantras

 

Don't think PRABHOOOO, just chant Hare Krishna give up your individuality and do what we tell you to do, Surrender Prabhooo - Is that nonsense comment what Krishna Consciousness and our Srila Prabhupada really about? Fortunately that immature, restricted dictatorial patronizing character destroying version of ISKCON no longer exists because such a lie can never be maintained, except with some Temples and Swamis and their 'yes' followers that are still stagnated and living in a 80s and 90s time warp.

[realist]

 

More time wasted .....

Better to chant ,stick to sattvik diet ,follow the guru.....

Understanding can come either through "theory" or through "direct experience"...

Theoretical understanding is an ever shifting "goal post"

Only understanding derived from direct experience can be sustained....

Experience will come FASTER to those who sincerely follow the rules and if they can get guru's grace......

the guru can be a iskconite ,non iskconite,shaiva or shakta.....

the STUDENT who accepts a theoretical belief system (vaishnavism ,shaivism,shaktism) has absolutely "NO AUTHORITY".... and his /her ENDORSEMENT of any system is USELESS because his/her understanding of shastras is a "FROG IN A WELL UNDERSTANDING"

"The scriptures cannot be understood without guru's grace".

All belief systems are abusive to a STUDENT because they force him/her to believe things which are ILLOGICAL.however when followed according to the rules can be VERY HELPFUL.

 

better to follow the rules ,chant etc a word to the wise.The rebels however will ultimately gain better theoretical understanding at the risk of diluting his/her faith in his/her own beliefs.

 

Follow not your heart ...follow not your brain .......follow your intution ... the antaryamin.

 

I don't know about YOU but I chant Hare Krishna, attend the Temple every day, render service to the dieties, distribute PRABHUPADA'S books and read Prabhupada's books, listen to His lectures and morning walks and study the many letters he wrote to understand and be part of his REAL ISKCON society that establishes the facts of what the eternal 'present' is (Goloka time) and what temporary time is in the mahat-tattva. Srila Prabhupada encouraged us to write down our realizations and not just be mindless parrots quoting slokas and mantras

 

Don't think PRABHOOOO (seems to be your moto), just chant Hare Krishna and give up your individuality and do what we tell you to do, Surrender Prabhooo. Is this nonsense comment the REAL teachings of Krishna Consciousness and our Srila Prabhupada really about?

 

Fortunately that immature, restricted dictatorial patronizing character destroying version of ISKCON no longer exists because such a lie can never be maintained, except with some Temples and Swamis and their 'yes' followers that are still stagnated and living in a 80s and 90s time warp however, even those who are just more clever at holding their breath better than others, will eventually just fade away over the next thirty years leaving only the preserved teachings of Srila Prabhupada and his real ISKCON Movement.

[Beggar]

 

I prefer to use the words from Prabhupada's teachings that we ONLY 'think' or 'imagine' we are fallen when in actual fact we are never fallen. Just like a cloud covers the sun it does not mean the sun is not there similarly, we presently cannot see our svarupa body but it eternally is there in Goloka - like the cloud covering the sun, this material world covers our vision and view of who we eternally are as our svarupa body.

This is easy to understand if you want to or desire too realizes this.

The word vardi means impersonal brahmajyoti. Maybe the real sleepervadi’s or fall-avadis are members of the present day version of the Gaudiya math. The word vardi is closer to their mundane impersonal Brahmajyoti origins.

Your may prefer the angle of vision sometimes given by Srila Prabhupada that the jiva's only imagine that they (we) are fallen but you are only taking one aspect of his teachings and refusing to harmonize it with these quotes from his books (not from Gaudiya Math but confimed by Gaudiya Math). Maybe we should call Sleeper-Vad, Ostrich-Vad or Head in the Sand-Vad?

 

According to Visnu Purana, Bhagavad-gita and all other Vedic literature's, the living entities are generated from the tatastha energy of the Lord. (Bhag. 3.7.9, purport)

The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is confirmed in Brahma-samhita: yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-ananda-koti. (Bhag. 4.30.5, purport)

 

Thus the body is considered material and the soul is considered spiritual. The origin of them both, however, is the same Supreme Personality of Godhead. . . Everything is born of the Supreme Brahman, from which everything emanates as different energies. (Bhag. 8.12.8, purport)

 

The symptoms of the rainy season may be compared to the symptoms of the living entities who are covered by the three modes of material nature. The unlimited sky is like the Supreme Brahman, and the tiny living entities are like the covered sky, or Brahman covered by the three modes of material nature. Originally, everyone is part and parcel of Brahman. The Supreme Brahman, or the unlimited sky, can never be covered by a cloud, but a portion of it can be covered. As stated in the Bhagavad-gita, the living entities are part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But they are only an insignificant portion of the Supreme Lord. This portion is covered by the modes of material nature, and therefore the living entities are residing within this material world. The brahmajyoti-spiritual effulgence-is just like the sunshine; as the sunshine is full of molecular shining particles, so the brahmajyoti is full of minute portions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Out of that unlimited expansion of minute portions of the Supreme Lord, some are covered by the influence of material nature, whereas others are free. [Krsna Book, Ch. 20, Description of Autumn]

 

The all-pervading feature of the Lord which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jiva-sakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls-is known as Brahman. (Isopanisad, Text 16, purport)

 

As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses. (Isopanisad, Text 17, purport)

 

As spiritual sparks of the beams emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord, we are all permanently related with Him and equal to Him in quality. (C.C. Madhya-lila 5.22)

 

[realist]

I rest my case -

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by realist

I prefer to use the words from Prabhupada's teachings that we ONLY 'think' or 'imagine' we are fallen when in actual fact we are never fallen. Just like a cloud covers the sun it does not mean the sun is not there similarly, we presently cannot see our svarupa body but it eternally is there in Goloka - like the cloud covering the sun, this material world covers our vision and view of who we eternally are as our svarupa body.

This is easy to understand if you want to or desire too realizes this.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by realist

The word vardi means impersonal brahmajyoti. Maybe the real sleepervadi’s or fall-avadis are members of the present day version of the Gaudiya math. The word vardi is closer to their mundane impersonal Brahmajyoti origins.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

[Kulapavana]

 

I prefer to use the words from Prabhupada's teachings that we ONLY 'think' or 'imagine' we are fallen when in actual fact we are never fallen.

 

The belief that living entities are not actually present inside their material bodies here in this material world but only dreaming they are here goes 100% against ALL Vaishnava teachings. If you think this is what Prabhupada was teaching I can only feel sorry for your ignorance. Being present in their bodies means that they are fallen. There is no way around it.

[Beggar]

 

I rest my case -

The verdict is in, you are guilty of apasiddhanta in the first degree!

 

[Shakti-Fan]

 

The verdict is in, you are guilty of apasiddhanta in the first degree!

Just wondering? Will the sentence for Vaisnava aparadha run concurrently or consecutively with the Apasiddhanta sentence?

[Vigraha]

 

I prefer to use the words from Prabhupada's teachings that we ONLY 'think' or 'imagine' we are fallen when in actual fact we are never fallen. Just like a cloud covers the sun it does not mean the sun is not there similarly, we presently cannot see our svarupa body but it eternally is there in Goloka - like the cloud covering the sun, this material world covers our vision and view of who we eternally are as our svarupa body.

This is easy to understand if you want to or desire too realizes this.

 

Dream, think, imagine - same thing, also don't get sucked into their abuse with further abuse -

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by realist

The word vardi means impersonal brahmajyoti. Maybe the real sleepervadi’s or fall-avadis are members of the present day version of the Gaudiya math. The word vardi is closer to their mundane impersonal Brahmajyoti origins.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Just let sleepng dogs lie

[Kulapavana]

 

Just let sleepng dogs lie

 

of course they lie asleep in Vaikuntha

[Vigraha]

 

of course they lie asleep in Vaikuntha

 

lie

[Guruvani]

Yesterday, vigraha was saying there is no time in the spiritual world.

Today he now presumes to be the expert on time and and going to tell us all what we don't know.

 

If he thinks anyone takes him seriously he needs medication because he is suffering from delusions.

 

One day he doesn't have a clue and next day he is the expert on the subject.

this is simply hilarious.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

What's 25% of infinity? Just curious.

 

 

Every event in Goloka and Vaikuntha (the Personal Krishna conscious active part of the Spiritual World or Brahmajyoti is ever present. This is NOT the case in mahat-tattva and the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that takes up 25% of the spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti.

[Guruvani]

 

What's 25% of infinity? Just curious.

I think that the concept of percentages of energies has been misunderstood by many devotees for many years.

 

I have come to consider that it means that if Krishna has a certain number of energies that he employs in different ways, the he uses 25 % of those energies for the material creation.

 

It is not a matter of 25% percent of infinity.

It is a matter of 25% of the different forms of energy that Krishna uses in his pastimes.

 

There is no such thing as 25% of the infinite.

Ultimately, Krishna has ONE energy that he manifests in different ways.

Of the many ways that Krishna manifests his energy, 25% of the ways Krishna manifests his energy is used in the material creation.

 

That means that in the spiritual world there is 75% more variety in the ways that Krishna manifests his energy.

 

Sat-chit-ananda-vigraha is 100%.(four divisions of energy)

The material world only has existence (sat) and even that is temporary.

It does not have chit, ananda or the spiritual vigraha.

 

So, the material world is only 25% energy of Krishna at most.

Even that is a very generous figure.

[Svarupa]

I would like to correctly point out to Guruvani and his cohorts that it is not me saying we are eternally situated in Goloka and presently only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are not there, it is Srila prabhupada explaining to us that our original position is in Goloka and that we only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are fallen..

 

Your argument Guruvan is therefore with the words from His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and not with me. Clearly without any doubt whatsoever Srila Prabhupada tells us we ALL come down from Goloka.

 

Srila Prabhupada -”The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully”(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service” (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

 

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

 

Srila Prabhupada - “You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 196

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

 

Srila Prabhupada – “We have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

 

Srila Prabhupada - “When the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

 

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only”

 

Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

 

Srila Prabhupada clearly states “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what your relationship with Krishna is automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

 

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

 

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

 

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

 

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all come down from Goloka by simply thinking and desiring we are not with Krishna.

 

Hare Krishna

[Guruvani]

Vigraha,

 

None of the senior disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur ever advocated or acccepted anything close to your dreamervadi philosophy.

 

Srila Prabhupada refuted such idiotic thinking several times in his books as he explained that there is NO falling down from Vaikuntha.

 

Why don't you just stop your idiotic rant to challenge traditional Gaudiya siddhanta with your fairytale nonsense?

 

Only the most fringe elements of the Hare Krishna movement buy into your foolish rant to challenge traditional Gaudiya siddhanta with your fairytale.

 

Even the BBT scholars reject such nonsense.

[Beggar]

The essence of the Sleeper-Vadi philosophy is that there is no difference between the jiva baddhas, conditioned souls in this world and the nitya siddha bhaktas except that the first group has dreamed their way out of the spiritual planets. Their analysis that there are only two energies, spiritual and material is given by Krsna in Bhagavad Gita. From this viewpoint the tatastha position is only an in between point in relation to these two energies. But Caitanya Caritamrta refers to the tatastha as tatastha shakti, or in others word a distinct shakti of the Lord. Srila Prabhupada's preaching program was to emphasize Bhagavad Gita As It Is. His problem was to take the approach that Krsna Conciousness is the same during each yuga and at the same time present Mahaprabhu's revolutionary conception. That is certainly the view I thought that I was receiving during my first several reading of B.G. As it Is in the 1970's. Yet is Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu through Srila Krsna das Kaviraja who is telling "tatastha sakti bhedabha prakash."

Previously we quoted Srila Sridhar Maharaja quoting Srila Bhaktivinoda in Jaiva Dharma who is giving Srila Sanatana Goswami describing the most subtle implications of the Caitanya Caritamrta's anarpita carim carat verse.

 

"Bhakti is eternal; in 'Narada-bhakti-sutra', 'Sandilya-sutra', all such scriptures, this has been given – but the type of devotion which Mahaprabhu came with, which we meet after the advent of Mahaprabhu Sri Chaitanyadeva, that was not previously at any time open to the ordinary person. So, it is called 'anarpita carim'. And what is that standard of devotion? It is this: complete surrender to Krishna in consorthood, where every atom of the jiva-soul gets welcomed and embraced by the corresponding atom of Krishna consciousness – madhura-rasa. That was not open to the public before. This is my finding, my faith. You may accept, or not accept..." Sanatana Goswami told like this to that Vaisnava: "This is my prvate conception – you may take it, or not."

So at the time Krsna spoke Bhagavad Gita to Arjuna this conception of madhura rasa (madhurya) consorthood, or paramour love only existed on this earth in Vraja dhama amongst a couple of hundred persons. Consequently it is NOT given by Krsna in Bhagavad Gita As It Is. Since Caitanya Caritamrta IS the real teaching of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu this conception of madhura rasa IS given there.

So in a sense Srila Prabhupada had a problem in his preaching strategy-that was to give Bhagavad Gita first to persons with absolutely no background in Varnasrama culture and somehow include the teachings of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as if the lessons for both Kali and Dvarapa yugas are the same (of course he gave the distinction of practices between the two yugas - harer nama harer nama harer nama eva kevalam). The reason for this approach is explained by Srila Sridhar Maharaja when he explained how the spiritual science like any other is taught in installments. He explained how the elementary school science student is first taught that the earth revolves around the sun, and then only later on is the student taught that the moon revolves around the earth as not to create confusion. Still later the student is taught that the sun revolves around the universe.

The problem is that at some point students in the lower section may come to oppose the higher levels of knowledge such as those in Caitanya Caritamrta. Clearly Srila Prabhupada was willing to take this risk in his preaching to establish the foundations of Krsna Conciousness worldwide. But clearly,he would never approve of this assault by the elementary students on the higher siddhantas of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the Goswamis of Vrndavana.

[Svarupa]

To start with, I do not accept the authority of the Gaudiya math, Sridar Swami, Narayana Maharaj and co, Srila Prabhupada said no one in the Gaudiya math is qualified to be Guru!!

 

Begger, I don’t know about the others, but I don't even bother reading your nonsense posts anymore, although I read Guruvanis’ 'angry and nasty' posts because I find them so humorous, laughfable and comic like in his effort in trying to understand he is not the body he presently gets around in, or the ‘real but temporary’ fairytale dream world his mind has created. Dandavats certainly never printed your nonsense but they printed EVER post of 'Bhakta Rod' explaining to us how we all came down from Goloka. The fact is the BBT know your and idiot and try hard. Now accept the teachings of a bonafide Guru -

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all. lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka.

Your argument is therefore not with all of us who know we have come down from Goloka, but with the words from His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and not with me. Clearly without any doubt whatsoever Srila Prabhupada tells us we ALL come down from Goloka.