The correct understanding of what time is.

[Svarupa]

 

Vigraha,

 

None of the senior disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur ever advocated or acccepted anything close to your dreamervadi philosophy.

 

Srila Prabhupada refuted such idiotic thinking several times in his books as he explained that there is NO falling down from Vaikuntha.

 

Why don't you just stop your idiotic rant to challenge traditional Gaudiya siddhanta with your fairytale nonsense?

 

Only the most fringe elements of the Hare Krishna movement buy into your foolish rant to challenge traditional Gaudiya siddhanta with your fairytale.

 

Even the BBT scholars reject such nonsense.

Guruvanis’ 'angry and nasty' posts I find humorous, laughable, pathetic and comic like in his effort in trying to understand he is not the body he presently gets around in, or the ‘real, but temporary’ fairytale dream world his mind has created.

 

Dandavats certainly never printed Guruvanis nonsense but they printed EVER post of 'Bhakta Rod' explaining to us how we all came down from Goloka. The fact is the BBT know your and idiot and try hard. Now accept the teachings of a bonafide Guru -

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all. lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

[Beggar]

 

To start with, I do not accept the authority of the Gaudiya math, Sridar Swami, Narayana Maharaj and co, Srila Prabhupada said no one in the Gaudiya math is qualified to be Guru!!

 

Begger, I don’t know about the others, but I don't even bother reading your posts anymore, although I read Guruvanis’ because I find them so humorous and comic like in his effort in trying to understand he is not the body he presently gets around in, or the ‘real’ fairytale dream world his mind has created.

Here again is the classic strawman argument. Because we receive clarification on what we understand when reading from Prabhupada's books, then you denigrate the givers of such clarification. (Argumentum ad Hominem) But you cannot even understand intellectually what we are writing, so how could you defeat it? Therefore you revert to another misinterpretation of Srila Prabhupada concerning his godbrothers and use that to attack what you think is the source of the ideas that threaten your phantamagoric conception of Krsna Consciousness. The real source of the ideas that you don't like are Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the sad gosai primarliy Srila Rupa, Sanatana, Jiva and Raghunatha das Goswamis, Krsna das Kaviraja Goswami, Vrndavana das Thakur, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswat Thakur.

[Svarupa]

It's a bit cold here today in New York, these people really need Krishna Consciousness. Anyway .......

 

Our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

 

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only”

 

[Beggar]

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only”

Analogies have their limitations. Analogies are only true to a certain extent. It is a folly to extend analogies beyond the limit of the thoughts that they were intended to convey. Such an approach to the world of thought is childish and closed minded. But then again whay would you expect?

 

[Svarupa]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by realist

The word vardi means impersonal brahmajyoti. Maybe the real sleepervadi’s or fall-avadis are members of the present day version of the Gaudiya math. The word vardi is closer to their mundane impersonal Brahmajyoti origins.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Very well written realist

 

[Beggar]

 

The word vardi means impersonal brahmajyoti. Maybe the real sleepervadi’s or fall-avadis are members of the present day version of the Gaudiya math. The word vardi is closer to their mundane impersonal Brahmajyoti origins.

Sleeper-Vadi means one who espouses:

 

Fall-Vadi means one who disputes that Srila Prabhupada wrote that no one falls from Vaikuntha.

[Svarupa]

Some devotees once said in Mayapur that it is too difficult to understand eternal time and how we ALL originally fell down from Goloka or Vaikuntha, stating that the subject is best not discussed and devotees should always refer to Srila Prabhupada’s letter ‘Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic’ letter he sent to his Australian devotees in 1972

Srila Prabhupada instructed his disciples to just get out of this material world and don't waste your time trying to understand how and when we fell down from Goloka

Srila Prabhupada - "What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin." Later, "Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic.". Read this over and over, try and understand that being marginal means free will, even in Goloka. Without it how can there be genuine Love? Try to understand.We are given free will to increase our love for Krishna but that also allows us to miss use it if we desire.

Here however Srila Prabhupada's often responsed in a different way from the Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic letter, encouraging his disciples to try and understand our original position and how we fell from Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Srila Prabhupada - “No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult”.

Acyutananda - “It is not difficult. They don’t want to understand”.

Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel”.

Acyutananda - “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.”

Srila Prabhupada - “But if he likes, he can return”.

Acyutananda - “He can return”.

Srila Prabhupada - “That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”.Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976, Srila Prabhupada

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

[Kulapavana]

 

Your argument is therefore not with all of us who know we have come down from Goloka, but with the words from His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and not with me. Clearly without any doubt whatsoever Srila Prabhupada tells us we ALL come down from Goloka.

 

OK... so are we indeed down here, in the material world for real? this material world is a real place (that is a basic tenet of all Vaishnava traditions) so coming down would mean that we, the spirit soul, are here for real.

 

On the other hand: The belief that living entities are not actually present inside their material bodies here in this material world but only dreaming they are here goes 100% against ALL Vaishnava teachings as presented by Lord Krsna Himself in the Gita. If you think that Prabhupada was teaching something contrary to the Gita, than you are just an offender.

 

If you say that Prabhupada contradicted his own guru on the issue of origin of jiva, then you are an offender because you essentially say that Prabhupada's teachings do not represent our sampradaya.

 

There is little harm in thinking or meditating that you fell from Vaikuntha - It is a fantasy game akin to the sahajiya practices of thinking himself to be a gopi. But please dont say that this is the real siddhanta Prabhupada preached, because that disqualifies him from being an acharya of the Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya sampradaya.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Now I'm even more confused. Are you saying Krishna's energy is finite?

 

 

I think that the concept of percentages of energies has been misunderstood by many devotees for many years.

 

I have come to consider that it means that if Krishna has a certain number of energies that he employs in different ways, the he uses 25 % of those energies for the material creation.

 

It is not a matter of 25% percent of infinity.

It is a matter of 25% of the different forms of energy that Krishna uses in his pastimes.

 

There is no such thing as 25% of the infinite.

Ultimately, Krishna has ONE energy that he manifests in different ways.

Of the many ways that Krishna manifests his energy, 25% of the ways Krishna manifests his energy is used in the material creation.

 

That means that in the spiritual world there is 75% more variety in the ways that Krishna manifests his energy.

 

Sat-chit-ananda-vigraha is 100%.(four divisions of energy)

The material world only has existence (sat) and even that is temporary.

It does not have chit, ananda or the spiritual vigraha.

 

So, the material world is only 25% energy of Krishna at most.

Even that is a very generous figure.

[Guruvani]

 

Now I'm even more confused. Are you saying Krishna's energy is finite?

If Krishna wants to be finite he can be.

He is not just the greatest of the great but the smallest of the small.

The infinite can be finite if he so chooses.

That is why he is called God.

 

Krishna can reduce the unlimited down to a speck of dust if he wants too.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Right here you've made it clear that you do not fully accept Srila Prabhupada then--just his left foot, perhaps.

 

 

To start with, I do not accept the authority of the Gaudiya math, Sridar Swami, Narayana Maharaj and co, Srila Prabhupada said no one in the Gaudiya math is qualified to be Guru!!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

That's an evasive answer, however true it is.

 

 

If Krishna wants to be finite he can be.

He is not just the greatest of the great but the smallest of the small.

The infinite can be finite if he so chooses.

That is why he is called God.

 

Krishna can reduce the unlimted down to a speck of dust if he wants too.

[Guruvani]

 

That's an evasive answer, however true it is.

 

The supreme absolute is always very evasive.

We want to catch it, cage it and put it in a box we call the mind, but that is always an impossible dream.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

The supreme absolute is always very evasive.

We want to catch it, cage it and put it in a box we call the mind, but that is always an impossible dream.

 

And if the Lord suddenly decides to only dedicate 3/16ths of His energy/energies to the mundane realm, is He prohibitted by shastra?

 

Do you see where I'm going with this?

[Guruvani]

 

 

Do you see where I'm going with this?

 

Yes, I see you are going in circles chasing your tale.