Whose books and why?

[cbrahma]

Hate to interrupt this cosmic discussion about how exactly we got into the material predicament but I get pressured by ISKCON devotees with questions about why I don't get initiated into their pantheon of gurus.

My question is why do they exclusively have Prabhupada-puja and distribute his books but don't perform guru-puja for their gurus and distribute their gurus' books.

After all, Prabhupada's disciples didn't routinely engage in puja for Bhaktisiddhanta or distribute his books. It seems like they want to have their diksa guru and act like ritvik disciples of Prabhupada.

[Beggar]

 

It seems like they want to have their diksa guru and act like ritvik disciples of Prabhupada.

It seems like they want to have their (eggless) cake and eat it too.

[theist]

They have a concocted system since 1977 so naturally it will be confused. They are now trying to cram the parampara system into their iskcon box and of course it doesn't fit. But they can't give up the attempt because that means admitting they are not in control, (which of course is kinda the idea behind vaisnavism anyway).

 

Right from the beginning Srila Prabhupada wanted each temple to be independent and not dependent on a central handful of decision makers. But no one would do it.

 

Any of Srila Prabhupada's disciples can still be empowered by Guru and Krsna to formally start their own branch and it is clear that is what Srila Prabhupada wanted. Some have.

 

But again don't worry about what iskcon does. Everyone should wish them well and hope the mess gets straightened out but the material world will always be filled with people we are more attracted to the religious side of God consciousness than to the spiritual side.

 

Each of us is independently sitting on death row. That fact won't be altered by what happens at the next GBC meeting.

[cbrahma]

 

They have a concocted system since 1977 so naturally it will be confused. They are now trying to cram the parampara system into their iskcon box and of course it doesn't fit. But they can't give up the attempt because that means admitting they are not in control, (which of course is kinda the idea behind vaisnavism anyway).

 

Right from the beginning Srila Prabhupada wanted each temple to be independent and not dependent on a central handful of decision makers. But no one would do it.

 

Any of Srila Prabhupada's disciples can still be empowered by Guru and Krsna to formally start their own branch and it is clear that is what Srila Prabhupada wanted. Some have.

 

But again don't worry about what iskcon does. Everyone should wish them well and hope the mess gets straightened out but the material world will always be filled with people we are more attracted to the religious side of God consciousness than to the spiritual side.

 

Each of us is independently sitting on death row. That fact won't be altered by what happens at the next GBC meeting.

It's hard to ignore them as easily as they ignore me, (except to make judgments). I reduce my contact with these devotees ( I call them that regardless of how envious they are).

Where does one get association? The Narayana maharaja thing is so failed.

[theist]

 

It's hard to ignore them as easily as they ignore me, (except to make judgments). I reduce my contact with these devotees ( I call them that regardless of how envious they are).

Where does one get association? The Narayana maharaja thing is so failed.

 

Yep. I know what you mean. The ritviks hate everyone outside their belief system. The iskconites are bound up by ecclesiastical concepts. And other groups have their problems.

 

But then there is no perfect sanga because we are all flawed beings. But within these groups maybe you can find a handful of bhaktas to chant and study with even though you may disagree here and there.

 

Ultimatewly we have to remember our situation is of our own making. We have not desired pure vaisnava association. We ourselves have a mixed agenda otherwise we are surrounded by pure devotees.

 

The mixed stage of devotiona life is really very awkward with desires pulling us in two diametrically opposing directions. We keep fighting with Krsna over the reins of the chariot and so our ride is not so smooth or properly directed. It's painful confusing and lonley but thank God it is also temporary.

[Kulapavana]

 

It's hard to ignore them as easily as they ignore me, (except to make judgments). I reduce my contact with these devotees ( I call them that regardless of how envious they are).

Where does one get association? The Narayana maharaja thing is so failed.

 

Where I live (Prabhupada Village) we managed to create a community where ritviks, iskconites, independents, tripurarites and others, can live, associate, and worship Krsna in one temple. It is not always smooth, but it is inspiring and better then tolerable.

 

Do not despair, prabhuji. We are with you as well

[cbrahma]

 

Yep. I know what you mean. The ritviks hate everyone outside their belief system. The iskconites are bound up by ecclesiastical concepts. And other groups have their problems.

 

But then there is no perfect sanga because we are all flawed beings. But within these groups maybe you can find a handful of bhaktas to chant and study with even though you may disagree here and there.

 

Ultimatewly we have to remember our situation is of our own making. We have not desired pure vaisnava association. We ourselves have a mixed agenda otherwise we are surrounded by pure devotees.

 

The mixed stage of devotiona life is really very awkward with desires pulling us in two diametrically opposing directions. We keep fighting with Krsna over the reins of the chariot and so our ride is not so smooth or properly directed. It's painful confusing and lonley but thank God it is also temporary.

Interesting response. I'm the blameworthy victim.

So sanga is going to come with advancement? I guess I haven't advanced then. So many others with no more advancement seem to get it.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

The Narayana maharaja thing is so failed.

From Acarya Kesari Sri Srimad Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami: His Life and Teachings, by Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Goswami Maharaja,

"The jiva is constitutionally a servant of the Supreme Lord. Unfortunately, the jiva who has fallen into this illusory world, being averse to The Supreme Lord since time immemorial, is burnt by the three-fold miseries in the cycle of repeated birth and death. Only by great fortune does the jiva take shelter at the lotus feet of a sad-guru and follow the path of suddha-bhakti. At that time he realizes that Sri Gurudeva, Sri Gaurasundara, and Sri Sri Radha-Krsna Yugala are the embodiment of auspiciousness for the whole world. The ultimate goal of the jiva is to attain prema for the lotus feet of Sri Sri Radha-Krsna. The life of that person in whose heart prema for Sri Sri Radha-Krsna has arisen is actually significant, meaningful and profitable.This condition is the ultimate good fortune of all jivas."

Srila Prabhupada, originally published in The Harmonist in 1936, on the advent day of His Divine Grace Om Visnupada Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura,

Gentlemen, on behalf of the members of the Bombay branch of the Gaudiya Math, let me welcome you all because you have so kindly joined us tonight in our congregational offerings of homage to the lotus feet of the world teacher, acaryadeva, who is the founder of this Gaudiya Mission and is the President-acarya of Sri Sri Visva Vaisnava Raja Sabha-I mean my eternal divine master, Om Visnupada Paramaharnsa Parivrajakacarya, Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Maharaja.

Sixty-two years ago, on this auspicious day, the acaryadeva made his appearance by the call of Thakura Bhaktivinoda at Sri Ksetra, Jagannatha Dhama at Puri.

Gentlemen, the offering of such an homage as has been arranged this evening to the acaryadeva is not a sectarian concern, for when we speak of the fundamental principle of gurudeva or acaryadeva,we speak of something that is of universal application. There does not arise any question of discrirninating my guru from yours or anyone else's.

There is only one guru, who appears in an infinity of forrns to teach you, me and all others.

 

[theist]

 

Interesting response. I'm the blameworthy victim.

So sanga is going to come with advancement? I guess I haven't advanced then. So many others with no more advancement seem to get it.

 

We are all blameworthy victims. We get cheated because we desire to cheat others. Iskcon is not the source of anybody's problems. If nothing else let's at least admit responsibility for our own lives.

[cbrahma]

 

We are all blameworthy victims. We get cheated because we desire to cheat others. Iskcon is not the source of anybody's problems. If nothing else let's at least admit responsibility for our own lives.

Nice. I don't recall 'blaming ISKCON for my problems'. I am wondering what kind of association one can get that helps us advance. Unless one is advanced , one doesn't get sanga. And one doesn't get advancement without it. That was Prabhpada's intent?

Being pushed into initiation by some rubber-stamped guru doesn't sound very helpful.

And of course if I conceded to that, it would also be my fault.

[theist]

 

Nice. I don't recall 'blaming ISKCON for my problems'. I am wondering what kind of association one can get that helps us advance. Unless one is advanced , one doesn't get sanga. And one doesn't get advancement without it. That was Prabhpada's intent?

Being pushed into initiation by some rubber-stamped guru doesn't sound very helpful.

And of course if I conceded to that, it would also be my fault.

 

Blaming Iskcon for our current problems is a common problem. I have really been infected by that disease myself. Even in my ordinary day to day life I look first to others as the cause for any problem that arises in my life. I struggle with this. But when we strip away all the ***p it comes down to I am the one that choose to investigate a life apart from Krsna and it is my continued reluctance to reconnect with the Lord that keeps me in this situation. All my external enviroment is nothing but a reflection of my own consciousness.

 

I didn't mean to make you feel as though I was singling you out my brother.

[cbrahma]

 

Blaming Iskcon for our current problems is a common problem. I have really been infected by that disease myself. Even in my ordinary day to day life I look first to others as the cause for any problem that arises in my life. I struggle with this. But when we strip away all the ***p it comes down to I am the one that choose to investigate a life apart from Krsna and it is my continued reluctance to reconnect with the Lord that keeps me in this situation. All my external enviroment is nothing but a reflection of my own consciousness.

 

I didn't mean to make you feel as though I was singling you out my brother.

"All my external enviroment is nothing but a reflection of my own consciousness."

That's a little much- solipsism. I just told you I wasn't blaming ISKCON for anything but what ISKCON is responsible for - misleading others on the topic of guru-tattva - I didn't create that situation. If it was my consciousness, I would give in to it.

[theist]

 

"All my external enviroment is nothing but a reflection of my own consciousness."

That's a little much- solipsism. I just told you I wasn't blaming ISKCON for anything but what ISKCON is responsible for - misleading others on the topic of guru-tattva - I didn't create that situation. If it was my consciousness, I would give in to it.

 

Well we are not tracking on this one. I am sorry I was unable to be more clear.

[cbrahma]

 

Well we are not tracking on this one. I am sorry I was unable to be more clear.

It couldn't be more clear. I just find it to be much too simplistic and cruel to blame the victim in every abuse of a corrupt organization.

All the children that were molested by priests had it coming to them, I suppose. It had nothing to do with the priests and the gross immorality of the leaders.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Here we go again! [of course, if I find myself saying that, it probably means I'm spending too much time here and not enough time doing sadhana].

 

 

It couldn't be more clear. I just find it to be much too simplistic and cruel to blame the victim in every abuse of a corrupt organization.

All the children that were molested by priests had it coming to them, I suppose. It had nothing to do with the priests and the gross immorality of the leaders.

[cbrahma]

 

Here we go again! [of course, if I find myself saying that, it probably means I'm spending too much time here and not enough time doing sadhana].

It will come back if the simple truth keeps being dodged.

[Beggar]

 

It couldn't be more clear. I just find it to be much too simplistic and cruel to blame the victim in every abuse of a corrupt organization.

All the children that were molested by priests had it coming to them, I suppose. It had nothing to do with the priests and the gross immorality of the leaders.

Obviously there is an interwining of the karma of the perpetrators and the victims. Karmic reactions are very complex and the Supersoul arranges with His infinite consciousness for everyone to be "in the right place at the right time'. What is the karmic reaction for being a gurukula teacher and abusing the students? Just maybe in one's next life one will get abused as a child in a gurukula. We tend to be influenced by the moral judgements of western society. They will say, "no one deserves that..."; and then they will say, "enjoy as much as you can for you only live once!"

[Guruvani]

Did Lord Nityananda deserve to be hit in the head with a broken pot and wounded?

Did Haridasa Thakur deserve to be caned in 21 market places?

 

Before we go to write off everything that happens as "karma" we need to take into consideration the intervention, mercy and dispensation of Lord Krishna.

 

Sometimes, what appears to be karma is actually the intervention of Lord Krishna whose ways are inconceivable but always have a design and a master plan for the welfare of the living entities.

 

I would propose that we cannot write off every adversity and misfortune as karma.

If we attempt to do so we are writing off the mercy and intervention of Lord Krishna who is always trying to stear the living entities in the right direction towards eternal life of bliss and knowledge.

 

What is karma?

Isn't karma the way that Krishna directs the material nature to do his bidding in rectifying the misguided mentality of the conditioned souls?

 

Can karma be anything other than Krishna trying to reward and punish good and bad behaviour?