Temple Presidents: Voting Or Selecting?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Krsna does not say: surrender to your guru

 

This is pure delusion.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

All but the nitya-siddhas and sadhana-siddhas are bogus (to some extent). I am bogus and I suspect you are bogus as well.

 

This is why there is a distinction made between the "inspired" side and the "aspiring" side of the developing Bhakta.

 

If our Guru is not cent per cent pure, then we surrender to his/her "inspired" side, and try not to see the "aspiring" side. That mood is for our highest benefit. If we lose sight of the "inspired" side of Guru, then we are in trouble.

 

The plan is to focus on Krishna. That is good. As Krishna Himself says, directly or indirectly, there is nothing else we can possibly do.

 

 

aaaah... the surrender card was the favourite card of the bogus leaders

 

here is the trick: anybody who presses you to surrender to anybody besides Krsna is a suspect. you know that verse in the Gita, "abandon all dharmas and just surrender unto Me"? Krsna does not say: surrender to your guru, or to his institution. It is quite plain.

 

The plan is to focus on Krsna.

[Beggar]

 

 

Sri Guru & His Grace, Srila Srila Sridhar Maharaj<tt>

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From Chapt. One: The Genuine Guru

 

We must accept any way and any alliance that will help us gain entrance into that realm. We shall try to have even the slightest connection with that perfect goal of our innate aspiration. We are helpless; we are hopeless in the midst of disappointment. We are in extreme danger. We rely on our free will, our capacity of selection for our own good, but it is too minute and helpless to guide us. What danger we are in! All around us are witnesses to this danger. How important is a real guru who can guide us to our real welfare.

We are in the midst of different forces that are drawing us, attracting us towards different directions, so proper guidance is the most valuable and the most important thing for all of us. If we accept direction from anywhere and everywhere, we will be misguided. Therefore, we must be careful to get proper direction. That direction has been given by Krsna in the Bhagavad-gita:

<center> tad viddhi pranipatena

pariprasnena sevaya

upadeksyanti te jnanam

jnaninas tattva-darsinah </center> "To understand transcendental knowledge, you must approach a self-realized soul, accept him as your spiritual master, and take initiation from him. Inquire submissively and render service unto him. Self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you, for they have seen the truth."

Qualifications of a Disciple

Here, Krsna has given us the standard by which we can understand what is what, from a bona fide source. The standard to measure truth or untruth must come not from a vitiated, vulnerable plane, but from a real plane. And to realize that, we must have these three qualifications: pranipat, pariprasna, and seva. Pranipat means we must surrender to this knowledge, for it is not an ordinary class of knowledge, which as a subject we can make our object; it is supersubjective. We may be the subjects in this mundane world, but we will have to become objects to be handled by the superknowledge of that plane.

Pranipat means that one approaches a spiritual master, saying, "I am finished with the experience of this external world; I have no charrn for anything in this plane, where I have already traveled. Now I am offering myself exclusively at your altar. I want to have your grace." In this mood we should approach that higher knowledge.

Pariprasna means honest, sincere inquiry. We must inquire not with the tendency of discussion or in the mood of argument, but all our efforts should be concentrated in a positive line to understand the truth, without the spirit of doubt and suspicion. With full attention we should try to understand that truth, because it is coming from a higher plane of reality that we have never known.

Finally, there is sevaya, or service. This is the most important thing. We are trying to gain this knowledge not so we can get the help of that plane, not so we can utilize that experience for living here; rather we must give our pledge to serve that plane. Only with this attitude may we approach that plane of knowledge. We shall serve that higher knowledge; we won't try to make it serve us. Otherwise, we won't be allowed to enter into that domain.

Absolute knowledge won't come to serve this lower plane. We must offer ourselves to be used by Him, not that we shall try to use Him in our own selfish way, to satisfy our lower purpose.

With the mood of service we shall dedicate ourselves to Him; not that He will dedicate Himself to satisfy our lower animal purpose. So, with this attitude we shall seek the plane of real knowledge and receive the standard understanding. And then we can know what is what, and have a proper estimation of our environment.

This is Vedic culture. Absolute knowledge has always been imparted by this process alone, and never by the intellectual approach. Srlla Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta used to give the analogy of the bee: honey is in a bottle, the cork is in place, and the bee has taken his seat on the glass. He tries to taste the honey by licking the bottle. But, just as the bee cannot taste the honey by licking the outside of the glass bottle, the intellect cannot approach the world of spirit. We may think that we have attained it, but that is not possible: a barrier is there, like the glass. Intellectual achievement is not real achievement of higher knowledge. Only through faith, sincerity, and dedication can we approach that higher realm, and become a member. We can enter that higher plane only if they grant us a visa and admit us. Then we can enter that land of divine living.

So, a candidate must have these three qualifications before he can approach the truth which is on the higher plane of Absolute Reality. He can approach the Absolute Truth only with an attitude of humility, sincerity, and dedication. There are similar statements in the Srimad Bhagavatam and the Vedas. In the Upanisads it is said, tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet samit panih srotriyam brahma nistham: "Approach a spiritual master. Do not go to him hesitatingly or haphazardly, but with a clear and earnest heart."

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

it is supersubjective. We may be the subjects in this mundane world, but we will have to become objects to be handled by the superknowledge of that plane.

 

This is where we all keep tripping and falling down. We are so attached to "objective" measures and "objective" standards. We fail to realize that it is precisely our (bogus) objectivity that is shackling us to the mundane realm.

 

We want subjectivity, and not just any subjectivity, but SUPER-subjectivity.

[Beggar]

 

 

The Search For Sri Krsna, Reality the Beautiful, Srila Sridhar Maharaj<tt>

</tt>

From : The Krishna Conception

 

Surrender is not a lip transaction. Surrender means not only to surrender one's possessions, but to realize that the possessions themselves are false. I am not a master of anything. I am not even master of myself. Surrender means to give everything to the Guru, and rid ourselves of the unholy connection of so many possessions, so that they may not disturb us by always suggesting, "You are my master," and in this way misleading us.

We should think, "Everything belongs to the Lord and His delegation, the Guru. I am not the master of anything." That sort of knowledge we should imbibe, and that will be helpful to our real spiritual progress. This is reality. We have to realize that fact. We want the truth, and we want to free ourselves from false notions. So, proper diksa, spiritual initiation, imparts the divine knowledge that nothing belongs to us; not only that, but everything belongs to God, including ourselves. That is the conception of diksa: "I belong to Him; everything belongs to Him. I am His servant, and these are the objects of His service."

 

 

 

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Thank you Beggar! This nectar has dispelled my splitting headache!!

 

 

 

The Search For Sri Krsna, Reality the Beautiful, Srila Sridhar Maharaj<tt>

</tt>

From : The Krishna Conception

 

 

 

 

[Beggar]

 

 

The Search For Sri Krsna, Reality the Beautiful, Srila Sridhar Maharaj

<tt> </tt>

From : The Krishna Conception (continued)

<table cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2">Fool's Paradise </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td>This is reality, and we are suffering under nonreality in an imaginary world. We are living in a fool's paradise. We should do away with the fool's paradise and try to enter into real paradise. When we have a peep into the characteristic of the absolute environment of reality, and even a little regard for the truth, we can no longer relish the paraphernalia of this world as we did previously. Because we have had a real taste of the higher truth, we will have no charm for this material world. We will no longer feel encouragement to meet with the duties that are relating to this world of enjoyment. We will be indifferent. We know that the connection with the present enjoying mood brings a painful reaction. We can realize that, but we cannot leave it behind. We cannot cut off the connection completely in the stage of sadhana, spiritual practice. Still, we have no other alternative. Our affinity for the positive truth should be increased more and more and gradually our affinity for our paraphernalia and obligations will all disappear. Although repeatedly we may not be successful, still we will be unable to give up the idea. We will attempt again and again to make progress towards the truth, and when we are unsuccessful, our heart will ache to think that we are repeatedly being defeated by the enemies who are all around us.

But the fire of Krishna consciousness is there, and that fire is not to be quenched. It is a spark of eternal truth. So, the fire will continue, and the day will come when the enemies that are surrounding us will have to retire once and for all. One day we will find that Krishna has gradually captured our whole heart, and the others have retired forever; they are no longer present to trouble us in our mental circle. We will find that those unwanted things were like mushrooms: they came out from our mental soil, and now they have all gone and died. They have all gone away, and Krishna alone is in the heart. At that time, the heart is only full of Krishna, full of the Krishna conception.

</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2">Krishna Captures The Heart </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td>Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Prabhupad once instructed a disciple at the time of initiation into the Hare Krishna mantra that Krishna should be allowed to land in our hearts, just as an army is landed by the navy. An army is carried by a ship, and when they have landed, the fight begins, and they capture the country, just as Julius Caesar said, "Veni vidi vici -- I came, I saw, I conquered." So, we have to allow Krishna to land in our hearts. Then the fight will begin. What is the proposal of Krishna consciousness, and what is the proposal of so many other conceptions? They are all giving us their assurances from time immemorial, saying, "I shall give you this, I shall give you that," but the Krishna conception will enter and say, "My claim is this: the whole thing is Mine, and you are all trespassers!" The fight will begin; the unwanted things are sure to withdraw, and Krishna consciousness will capture the whole heart. This is the process. Krishna consciousness has only to land within our hearts. Somehow or other, from a pure devotee, a bit of real Krishna consciousness should enter through our ears into our hearts, and Krishna will supply whatever is required. One who has imbibed even a slight regard for Krishna consciousness is assured of success in spiritual life, today or tomorrow.

We may have erected high walls on all sides to protect ourselves so that Krishna consciousness may not enter, but Krishna is a thief -- and a thief requires no invitation. No preparation is necessary for His welcome. He will enter for His own interest, and that is our consolation. Our solace is that Krishna is a thief. Maya has erected her high walls on all sides, but nothing is sufficient to stop Krishna consciousness. Krishna is a thief, and stealthily He will enter one day.

</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2">Hope For The Hopeless </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td>A devotee may become hopeless, thinking, "The enemy is within my own house; my own kinsmen are my enemies. I am hopeless." We may become disappointed, but Krishna consciousness will not leave us in any way. Krishna will persevere, and in due course of time, He will conquer. And other things, no matter how closely related they may be in private and well-protected rooms in our hearts, will have to go. They must take leave from every corner of our hearts. Krishna will conquer. Krishna will capture the whole thing. The unwanted lusty desires of our hearts are foreign things. They are only mushrooms. Like mushrooms, they come out; they have no permanent stability or root. They are not rooted to the soil. We may think that what we have stored in our hearts is very near and dear, and that is already mixed with us as a part of our existence, but when Krishna consciousness enters, they will all float like mushrooms.

After all, they are mushrooms; they have no footing, no connection with the soil. They are only floating. All material interests are only floating on the surface. They are not deeply rooted within and without the whole of our existence. Only Krishna consciousness has its existence everywhere, within all parts of our existence. So, the mushrooms will have to vanish one day. This is confirmed in the Srimad Bhagavatam [2.8.5]:

 

pravistah karna-randhrena svanam bhava-saroruham

dhunoti samalam krsnah salilasya yatha sarat

 

When Krishna enters the heart through the ear, He captures the lotus of the heart and then gradually makes all the dirt in the heart disappear. Just as when the autumn season comes, all the water everywhere becomes pure, so also, when Krishna enters our hearts, all the impurities within will gradually vanish, and only Krishna will remain forever.

</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Murali_Mohan_das]

Many of those who have only tried to acquaint themselves with the preaching mood of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja Prabhupada see enemies to smash wherever they look, despite the fact that Srila Prabhupada himself was most merciful (even in his "smashing").

 

If we can capture something of the mood of Srila Prabhupada's dear friend in Krishna Consciousness, Srila Sridhar Maharaja, we can gain even greater insight into Srila Prabhupada and the instructions he came to bestow upon us.

 

As Srila Sridhar Maharaja says, when we gain some taste for Krishna, we become *indifferent* to the mundane. Regardless of the institution under discussion, management systems and styles are mundane. There is no perfect way and there are innumerable ways that are "good enough".

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Wow, I went to lunch (parent-teacher conference), came back, and no new posts. I hope it's just the usual afternoon (Pacific Standard Time) slump on the site and not my own self-righteous indignation that has killed the conversation!!

 

Anyways, cbrahma Prabhu, I like you and respect you for your valuable contributions here. Your criticisms are certainly all valid (in a particular paradigm).

 

Please forgive my harshness. I need the mercy of *all* the Vaishnavas (yourself included).

[cbrahma]

 

You offer no solutions (by your own admission), so what is the point?

 

For me to stand by and be silent while you defame those sincerely (if not purely) trying to follow the orders of their Guru Maharaja is consent to Vaishnava aparadha.

Why does one need to offer a solution when one is not responsible for the problem? This constant suppression of the truth under the rubric of apharada is dangerous , sentimental and ridiculous. Prabhupada had nothing against calling a spade a spade, a thief a theif and a liar a liar.

It is why so many atrocities in ISKCON and the Math continued unquestioned for so long.

 

Speaking the truth is NOT apharada. If it is then cheating has no consequence.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

That's OK. You can be right. Happy Thanksgiving!

 

Jai Sri Sri Guru-Gauranga Gandharvika Giridhari!!!!

 

 

Why does one need to offer a solution when one is not responsible for the problem? This constant suppression of the truth under the rubric of apharada is dangerous , sentimental and ridiculous. Prabhupada had nothing against calling a spade a spade, a thief a theif and a liar a liar.

It is why so many atrocities in ISKCON and the Math continued unquestioned for so long.

 

Speaking the truth is NOT apharada. If it is then cheating has no consequence.

[cbrahma]

 

That's OK. You can be right. Happy Thanksgiving!

 

Jai Sri Sri Guru-Gauranga Gandharvika Giridhari!!!!

I'ts nice to know you have conceded at least the potential for my being right with the word 'can'.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I'm kooky. I believe *everybody* is right about everything (in a given paradigm or frame of reference).

 

If everybody is right, then there is no need to argue (even though arguing can be fun at times (if unproductive)). We can focus on what is actually *useful* to us in our spiritual lives.

 

You've said before that you go to the L.A. Temple. That is the ISKCON temple with which I'm most familiar having lived there as a young child (Nirantara Prabhu was my teacher in San Francisco before he moved to L.A.) and having visted at least once a year since college graduation.

 

When I go there, I try to see the devotion in everyone, not their faults. My nature (as you can see) is to find faults, so sometimes I perceive things which I consider faults. At least intellectually, I'd like to believe those faults I perceive are actually faults in my perception. When I pass stool, I like to flush it, not play with it and point out how stinky it is to others. Nor do I like to call attention to the reek of other persons' stool.

 

Unless we are fully self-realized, we *all* have our anarthas. I'm having a tough enough time dealing with my own anarthas (stumbling blocks in the path of Devotion). I don't need to concern myself with anybody else's.

 

Jai Sri Sri Rukmini Dwarkadish!!

 

 

I'ts nice to know you have conceded at least the potential for my being right with the word 'can'.

[cbrahma]

 

I'm kooky. I believe *everybody* is right about everything (in a given paradigm or frame of reference).

 

If everybody is right, then there is no need to argue (even though arguing can be fun at times (if unproductive)). We can focus on what is actually *useful* to us in our spiritual lives.

 

You've said before that you go to the L.A. Temple. That is the ISKCON temple with which I'm most familiar having lived there as a young child (Nirantara Prabhu was my teacher in San Francisco before he moved to L.A.) and having visted at least once a year since college graduation.

 

When I go there, I try to see the devotion in everyone, not their faults. My nature (as you can see) is to find faults, so sometimes I perceive things which I consider faults. At least intellectually, I'd like to believe those faults I perceive are actually faults in my perception. When I pass stool, I like to flush it, not play with it and point out how stinky it is to others. Nor do I like to call attention to the reek of other persons' stool.

 

Unless we are fully self-realized, we *all* have our anarthas. I'm having a tough enough time dealing with my own anarthas (stumbling blocks in the path of Devotion). I don't need to concern myself with anybody else's.

 

Jai Sri Sri Rukmini Dwarkadish!!

It's also the temple many many Prabhupada disciples left because of so many scandals. They should, of course, have ignored those little drawbacks and tried to see the good points, skipping through the gurukula like Polyanna devi.

(I think I'm going to be sick.)

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

It's also the temple many many Prabhupada disciples left because of so many scandals. They should, of course, have ignored those little drawbacks and tried to see the good points, skipping through the gurukula like Polyanna devi.

(I think I'm going to be sick.)

 

Yep. They moved on. My Mother and Step-Father are two of them. There are a number of them in the community here in Santa Cruz. I don't hear them whining and moaning the way you do. They are seeking "positive and progressive immortality."

 

Why haven't *you* moved on? Why are you wallowing in your own (or anybody else's) filth?

[cbrahma]

 

Yep. They moved on. My Mother and Step-Father are two of them. There are a number of them in the community here in Santa Cruz. I don't hear them whining and moaning the way you do. They are seeking "positive and progressive immortality."

 

Why haven't *you* moved on? Why are you wallowing in your own (or anybody else's) filth?

Whose groaning? Where do you get wallowing? You're blaming the messenger because you can't deal with the facts. I made one statement. A statement that is backed up by the fact that so many devotees left and said a lot at the time. They left. They didn't acquiesce to the corruption like so many that stayed behind. That is the essence of my statement.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I can deal with "facts" just fine. I'm just trying to be more selective about which "facts" on which I let my mind dwell.

 

I should have left it at "OK. You can be right." My apologies.

 

Nitai-Gauranga!! Dayal Nitai!

 

 

Whose groaning? Where do you get wallowing? You're blaming the messenger because you can't deal with the facts. I made one statement. A statement that is backed up by the fact that so many devotees left and said a lot at the time. They left. They didn't acquiesce to the corruption like so many that stayed behind. That is the essence of my statement.

[cbrahma]

 

I can deal with "facts" just fine. I'm just trying to be more selective about which "facts" on which I let my mind dwell.

 

I should have left it at "OK. You can be right." My apologies.

 

Nitai-Gauranga!! Dayal Nitai!

You're not dealing in reality. You're suppressing and denying with sanctimonious fervor. You're so intent on NOT dealing with these issues that you keep responding to my comments and to the comments on this thread which are directly pertinent to the unpleasant and nasty topic of temple presidents and their GBC selection.

On the other hand sanctimonious denial will surely usher you on the way to spiritual enlightenment.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I have denied nothing. I wish to suppress nothing.

 

These topics do not have to be unpleasant and nasty if we don't make them so. If we can remain Krishna Conscious, everything can be harmonized, right?

 

I certainly don't want to deal with the nightmare that you call "reality".

 

I'd rather seek the Beautiful Reality which Gurudeva is experiencing.

 

 

You're not dealing in reality. You're suppressing and denying with sanctimonious fervor. You're so intent on NOT dealing with these issues that you keep responding to my comments and to the comments on this thread which are directly pertinent to the unpleasant and nasty topic of temple presidents and their GBC selection.

On the other hand sanctimonious denial will surely usher you on the way to spiritual enlightenment.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

I have denied nothing. I wish to suppress nothing.

 

It's a question of emphasis. There is no denying that all sorts of nonsense went on (has always gone on (way before ISKCON) and will always go on (until Satya Yuga)). On what do we choose to dwell?

 

If the conversation is about skateboarding, for instance, and somebody keeps bringing up all these people who died or became paralyzed while skateboarding, the conversation loses its charm rather quickly, doesn't it?

[cbrahma]

 

It's a question of emphasis. There is no denying that all sorts of nonsense went on (has always gone on (way before ISKCON) and will always go on (until Satya Yuga)). On what do we choose to dwell?

 

If the conversation is about skateboarding, for instance, and somebody keeps bringing up all these people who died or became paralyzed while skateboarding, the conversation loses its charm rather quickly, doesn't it?

It's a question of relevance. What facts are effective and important when identifying a problem? You can be honest and tell the truth or strike pious postures at the expense of spiritual welfare. Silence is consent.