Is there class discrimination in Goloka?

[Guruvani]

pujala ragapata gaurava bhange

 

Friday, June 22nd by Swami BV Tripurari | No comments

 

I came across this explanation of the meaning and history of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura’s famous pujala ragapata gaurava bhange statement. It sheds some new light on it. This is an unedited informal speech of Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja. Read it over.

“His (Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura’s) whole life in a nutshell is expressed in this, his own expression. Pujala ragapata, the very nature of my sampradaya is this. Pujala ragapata gaurava bhange. matala harijana visaya range, pujala ragapata gaurava bhange. The whole tenor of his preaching expedition, pujala ragapata gaurava bhange. The ragapat is above, on our head. That is the goal. We are to go there. But before that you have got charm for many things, the grandeur. You should try to learn that what is at present charming to you, utilize that for the service of that great domain of love. The majesty, the awe, the wealth, the reverence, what is grand to you, what attracts you most, all these, put into the service of that Lord of love and beauty. The absolute is beauty and love, harmony, autocrat, and everything should be sacrificed for Him. Learn this! Whatever you come in connection with sacrifice into the fire to establish that Lord of love. For his little satisfaction, all this grandeur may be put into the fire.

“Composed by Guru Maharaja himself. When from the hired house in Calcutta. The deities and the matha was removed to his own construction, constructed matha . The deities were carried in a chariot and we were dancing and we were dancing and singing just in front of the deities. At that time he composed some eight lines perhaps. You should sing this and direct the chariot from the hired house to our own house, matha. Matala hari jana visaya range pujala ragapata gaurava bhange. It is currently seen that the devotees have made themselves mad in handling so many material wealth. Generally the devotees should engage themselves in the subject of the Lord, but here in Gaudiya Matha we find they are handling money, motor car, this, that, everything here, lavishly, visaya range. For what purpose, pujava ragapata gaurava bhange to show that the ragapata, giving up everything and only through the internal love we shall worship the Lord not external sources, majesty, reverance not necessary. But here they have come to do this they are handling extensively the wealth and their of the outer world, what is the meaning?

“Gaurava bhange - to show that the ragapata is above all, those that are followers of raga-pata their position is very high. Not that they can not be masters of this mundane world. So, they have left everything and are taking the path of worshiping Him, in their heart. Not that. But all these grandeur, all reverence everything should go to serve them. Pujava ragapata - everything will havgot its fulfillment with their connecting in any way with the feet of those that are engaged in their worship exclusive of these worldly things with his heart. And only the flow of devotion from their heart they are doing. And the whole thing will have its fulfillment if that can connect to worship the feet of those that are living in that plane. The fulfillment of the majesty, awe and reverence, wealth everything. His grandeur is only meant to serve them, those niskincana, those who do not have anythlng on the gopi, and mentally they are reaching or not reaching. Who do not care for that. But all these must be meant to have their fulfillment to go to touch their feet. To exemplify to show, to teach to the world the fulfillment of everything is only to touch the feet of those niskincana who have made the absolute good, the Lord of love and beauty the all in all in their right.

“The whole world must learn for its own goodness for its own welfare to teach this to the world. The Gaudiya Matha people are handling all these things, the motor car, the wealth, the money, the airplane. While in Bombay one gentleman, a Bengali, was an officer in the mint there he asked me, You have come to collect money but you are very big man, very rich man, he told me. Yes we say we are rich and we say we are beggar. Now we must come to some understanding. You say that we are very rich. Why? We spend money like water. A man who has got much money he can spend his money for such purposes. And we being beggar we use, ordinary man would agree this is superfluous money otherwise a beggar man must not spend money for such purpose. One who has got a crore, he can throw some thousand for the luxurious activities. So you think we have got much money so one day we can see. But we say we are beggar with no money. Still we spend money in such a way. Now the question will come whether what we spend will be for a good purpose or bad. Suppose a doctor, he may not be wealthy, he has got a motorcar. Because he can attend many patients thereby this is not his luxury. Generally men will think that one who has got a car, one who has got a plane, he must be a money man of higher order. Then only he can keep such things. But for the business purpose he may keep such things. A doctor may have many patients he can visit by motorcar. We also use things in that way that with these things … One thing, to decorate the deity, you may think that this is superfluous. But we think this is the fulfillment of life. Every good things must come to decorate, to serve Narayana. That is our creed. Difference in creed. Beggars we are, still we spend money like water. Only for decoration, festival, distribution of prasadam. We beg money and we spend, lavishly, but not for our but we feel the necessity of our particular nature. So the question how we spend not how much money we have got. We are poor still we are beggar, Still we spend money like a rich man. Rather the rich man would be afraid to spend money like that. Pujala ragapata gaurava bhange. All wealth has got its only fulfillment in the service of those to preach the creed of those that are above this monetary world. The greatest goal possible by worshiping the Lord and connecting him with this world. Pujala ragapata. He has understood what is real ragapata. With this idea I have gotten such attraction; with this we have got encouragement within him. They are dancing, I have seen. I have had a sort of conception of the reality that he is good and beautiful and they are dancing. . Pujala ragapata gaurava bhange. What is proper expressions they have understood, they have realized and they are dancing. Krsna nama ruci habe gucibe vandana doyale nitai caitanya bole nace amar mana.” (Srila Sridhara Maharaja)

 

 

 

 

 

[Beggar]

<tt>Sri Guru & His Grace, </tt> Chapter Twelve (excerpt) Srila Sridhara Maharaja:

 

 

...Just as in the beginning, one sees the forest from a distance, but in the end he enters the inner circle of the forest, so from far off Krsna alone appears to be the asraya, the giver of shelter, but when we approach Krsna more closely, we will find our shelter among his devotees. Our real shelter is found within his inner circle of servitors, not with Krsna directly.

We are of a vitiated nature, but there are those who under no circumstances deviate from Krsna. They are the eternal paraphernalia of the Lord. They are not like us; they are eternally connected with Krsna, but we are sometimes coming and going away; we are unreliable servitors. That is our position, so we cannot claim the same position as the absolute servitors of the Lord. Under their guidance we can be given the chance of service, so we must accept that position. We are recruits, we are not amongst the permanent servitors of Krsna. We must perform our service under a bona fide superior. The new followers must be gradually accommodated under some bona fide, permanent servitors in the land of Krsna.

 

[Beggar]

 

So that is a no? No nitya-baddha can ever become ragatmika according to your understanding? he can however become a follower of a ragatmika?

The raganuga bhakta can become ragatmika but from our position the world of the ragatmikas is like a big green tree. To use a traditional analogy in this case and extend in further - within that green tree we will see as we get closer, there are green birds and those green birds live in a society with a hierarchy. Each rasa has its leaders or captains. If a raganuga bhakta's siddha swaupa is that of a cowherd boy, he still will serve under the leaders of that group like Sridhama, Subal and others. The Rupanugas always serve under Srila Rupa Goswami/Rupa Manjari and this is the glory of Srila Prabhupada, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, Srila Bhakti Rashak Sridhar Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Prajnan Kesava Maharaja and others.

 

 

So you would then view your guru as well as Keseva Prajna Maharaja Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati and Bhaktivinode were never nitya baddha and they must have come straight from Goloka to earth, Correct assumption?

 

I am not sure I understand your position very clearly.

Yes, I am viewing them as nitya-siddhas.

[Guruvani]

It appears that the ragatmika role models are the original devotees of Vrindavan who are themselves the examples of the different types and styles of service that can be rendered to Krishna in different loving exchanges.

 

A devotee should never think that he has become the ragatmika.

The devotee should always aspire to simply follow the real ragatimika devotees who are the group leaders of all the different devotees of Vrindavan.

 

Devotional perfection can never be attained until one is mature and developed enough to naturally practice raganuga sadhana in the wake of one of the ragatmika parishads of Vrindavan.

 

The idea of just waking-up in Vrindavan to svarupa-siddhi is not possible.

One must eventually become mature and developed enough in his devotional sentiments that he naturally adopts raganuga sadhana by focusing on the ragatmika role model in Vrindavan he most appreciates.

 

In the Rupanuga Gaudiya camp that role model is most generally perceived to be Rupa Manjari.

 

[Guruvani]

But, the question this topics concerns is if in Goloka there are different gradations of souls as marginal, internal etc.

Are Rupa Manjari and other ragatmika devotees of Vrindavan "marginal jivas" with the potential to fall down because of misuse of their free will?

Are the ragatmika devotees of Vrindavan fallible jivas who potentially can fall down and become worms in stool in the material world?

 

If they are marginal jivas then of course it means that they are potentially fallible.

If they are internal energy then of course they are infallible.

 

Are some devotees in Goloka marginal jivas while others are not?

 

Or,

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.154, purport:

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Everything in the Goloka Vṛndāvana planet is a spiritual expansion of sac-cid-ānanda. Everyone there is of the same potency — ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

[theist]

 

The raganuga bhakta can become ragatmika but from our position the world of the ragatmikas is like a big green tree. To use a traditional analogy in this case and extend in further - within that green tree we will see as we get closer, there are green birds and those green birds live in a society with a hierarchy. Each rasa has its leaders or captains. If a raganuga bhakta's siddha swaupa is that of a cowherd boy, he still will serve under the leaders of that group like Sridhama, Subal and others. The Rupanugas always serve under Srila Rupa Goswami/Rupa Manjari and this is the glory of Srila Prabhupada, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, Srila Bhakti Rashak Sridhar Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Prajnan Kesava Maharaja and others.

 

 

Yes, I am viewing them as nitya-siddhas.

 

So then you agree that a present nitya- baddha can become a nitya-siddha. I agree with this.

[Vigraha]

 

So then you agree that a present nitya- baddha can become a nitya-siddha. I agree with this.

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist

So then you agree that a present nitya- baddha can become a nitya-siddha. I agree with this.

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

1- The residents of Goloka are as good as Krishna because of their Krishna consciousness but they are sill jiva-tattva although their are so many Vishnu tattva's playing different roles as well as the Caitanya Caritamrita reveals, it is explained there that so many expansions of Krishna Himself play out different roles, for example only Srivas (Naradha Muni) is jiva-tattva, the rest in the Pancha-Tattva are Vishnu-tattva and their are many many more also that are Vishnu tattva who play out different parts in Krishna Caitanya's own Lila

2 - Yes you are right that the marginal living entities are part of the superior energy in ‘bodily nitya-siddha form’ however, because they are jiva-tattva they serve as individual devotees and are not on the same level as Krishna who is the embodiment of the internal potency. Our disagreement on this issue is with the use of words only.

3 -The nitya-baddha’s jivs are also part of the marginal energy (a characteristic of the superior energy (life force) yet become covered and slave to the inferior energy or material creation

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.154, purport:

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Everything in the Goloka Vṛndāvana planet is a spiritual expansion of sac-cid-ānanda. Everyone there is of the same potency — ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

 

This means in service atitude. Remember, there are not only unlimited marginal living entities (jiva-tattva's) in Goloka but there are also unlimited expansions of Krishna (Vishnu tattva's) that include Radha, many of the gopis, Balarama, Vishnu etc etc. You have to be careful here with the 'same potency' because the jiva-tattvas and the Vishnu tattva's are one only in service atitude in Goloka - THEY ARE NOT ONE AND THE SAME, JIVA-TATTVA CAN NEVER BECOME VISHNU TATTVA

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist

Sorry but if you think the other residents of Goloka are going to be looking at someone as a newcomer and an outsider then your question is infected with the concept of past. "This baddha-jiva was not here a minute ago and now he is here."

 

You rightly object to the idea of souls falling asleep in Goloka and/or disappearing altogether (as have heard some people claim). but yet you are then stuck with the exact same problem in nature with the idea of a new soul arriving and raising the conception of class distinction. Your problem is on the back end and others have their problem at the front end.

 

This problem is only solved with the elimination of our notions of past present and future.

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist

Well trying to respect Guruvani's desire to make this as free as possible of the 'fall from' arguments which have dominated this board for months I can certainly understand how that could be. That is one side of the argument and it is not possible to defeat it philosophically. On the other hand IMO there is no way one can establish it philosophically either. The reason being one could be a pencilpoint of brahmajyoti and still cast his consciousness into the dreamland of matter.

 

Or one could even have been amalgomated in the Brahman with no individual sense of identity and desiring again personal life cast his consciousness back into the three modes.

 

So dreaming is there no matter what the origin of the soul is. The point is it is ONLY by the medium of projecting the conciousness into the field of temporay forms (dreaming) that the soul has any contact with matter from any position.

 

But the question of class distinction being in the spiritual sky seems so odd to me especially in a land where everyone is the servant of everyone else in the service of Krsna.

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Interesting point<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Guruvani

You just don't pop-up in Goloka without a prior sequence of developing the relationship with Krishna in the material realm of time.

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by mahak

well, there ya have it. the apprenticeship is gokula, then goloka.

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist

My view is that I am tatashta or that demarcation line between the land and the sea. By use of my free will I can be controlled by the internal energy or the external energy meaning I can place my consciousness in either field and shift back and forth like the shifting of the line where sea meets the shore.

 

You may have a different view which is your right because you are also marginal. Just because you may have a different view doesn't mean you are incapable of abstract thinking or thinking outside the box as they say.

 

Marginal ultimately means free will to choose to be wrong if one so desires. Free will marks the place where one individual living being has his boundary between himself and all other living beings.

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

“The fact is the individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY; he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp.

Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently.

Marginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy.

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by mahak

Individual identity is the basis of this philosophy, and a snare of monism is grabbing all who deny that I am me, not you, not anyone else. This nonsense has me going to gokula, then merging with someone else in goloka? mahak

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->You don't merge into anyone, you simply realize who you really are

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist

Never thought of like that but that is the conclusion that that line of thought ends up with. It is monism. I can hear one of these monist's now, calling himself a vaisnava and preaching krsna-lila with the idea that you first merge into a character in krsna lila like Mother Yashoda and then you merge into the Brahman which is beyond lila. Krsna lila being just a fairytale to attract the poor slobs of kali-yuga who can't see beyond the illusion of variegatedness.

 

Razor's edge baby. We ain't out of the woods yet...danger lurks behind every tree.

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by mahak

The answer is on the cover of first canto, where we see krsnaloka in full. The activities are going on. Off to the side is Lord Chaitanyas samkirtana party. This is where we are, engaged in facilitation of rasa lila by hearing, chanting, remembering. This is our perfection, this is our swarupa siddhi. In that samkirtana party, all the rasas, including madurya rasa, are present.

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

[Beggar]

 

 

 

In his Amṛta-pravāha-bhāṣya, Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura states, "Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī is the creeper of love of Godhead, and the gopīs are exactly like twigs, flowers and leaves. When water is sprinkled on the creeper, the twigs, flowers and leaves indirectly receive all the benefits of the creeper itself. But water sprinkled directly on the twigs, leaves and flowers is not as effective as water sprinkled on the creeper's root. The gopīs are not as pleased when they directly mix with Kṛṣṇa as when they serve to unite Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī with Kṛṣṇa. Their transcendental pleasure lies in uniting Them." (Caitanya Caritamrita Madhya 8.210 purport)

 

 

The personal associates of Radharani, the gopi damsels of Vraja, are direct expansions of Her body. These expansions of Srimati Radharani are necessary for enhancing the pleasure potency of Sri Krishna. Their transcendental exchanges of love are the superexcellent affairs of the pastimes of Vrindavana. By the expansions of Srimati Radharani’s personal body, She helps Lord Krishna taste the rasa-dance and similar other activities.(Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 4.81 purport)

 

“All the other gopis help increase the joy of Krishna’s pastimes with Radharani. The gopis act as instruments of Their mutual enjoyment.” (Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 4.217)

 

 

In Sripad Siva Rama Swami's edition of Venu Gita, the chapters which ecompass "The flute song of Krsna" [s.B. Tenth Canto] it is explained that the sadhana siddha gopis, such as the Dandakaranya sages and other perfected devotees became gopis by engaging in devotional service. The nitya-siddhas (nitya priya) gopis, are eternally liberated gopis. The sadhana-siddha gopis who have also taken birth in the womb of the mother gopis, according to Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur, could only enter the rasa dance in the Gokula pastimes after being purified further by the association of the nitya-siddha gopis. So even in Vraja, amongst the gopis, there is a spiritual hierarchy that Vigrah, Sarva gattah, Swaupa etc. cannot fathom or appreciate as they wallow in their superficial conception of Krsna Consciousness.

 

 

 

 

 

[Avinash]

 

This problem is only solved with the elimination of our notions of past present and future.

 

Here is how I understand it. In this material world, we have space and time coordinates to describe an event. We can observe various points in space but our senses are limited in such a way that we can observe only one point in time. To give an example, when I look at the wall in front of me, then I can see various points on that wall. This is what I mean by saying that we can observe various points in space. But when I can observe things at 8 PM of 21 Nov 2007, then I cannot observe events at any other time. This is what I mean when I say that we can observe only one point in time.

Because we are able to observe only one point in time, we have the notions of past, present, and future. The point in time that we can see is called as present, the points which we cannot see but remember having seen belong to past and the points yet to be observed belong to future.

 

Consider a world whose inhabitants are conditioned to see only one point in time and only one point in space at any given moment. They will have notions of past, present, and future for both space as well as time unlike us who have such notions only for time.

 

The residents of Golok are able to see various points in both space and time. Therefore, there is no notion of past, present, future there.

 

In 2007, you are in this material world. Suppose that in 3007, you are in Golok. What will those who are in Golok before you think about your location in 2007?

 

I feel that they will say, "Theist is on Earth in 2007. He is in Golok in 3007."

It is important to note the word "is" and not "was" even when talking about 2007. They need not use past tense because they can see all time instants.

Will they say that "Theist is in Golok in 2007"? They will provided they treat Earth also as part of Golok. This is what I also feel. I feel that when you go to Golok, you will be able to see (not video recording but directly see) what you are doing on Earth. Since you can see that, you will think that you are in Golok in 2007.

[Vigraha]

Interesting 'viewpoint' but when thiest is in Goloka, is he really going to care what material body he was in 2007? After all, he has had billions of them. Isn't the eternal 'present' beyond the concept of past, present and future in the material world? Which means thiests' Krishna Consciousness will have no interest in what he was in the past in the material world, nor the future in the material world because Thiests is too absorbed in his devotional service in his 'present' to Krishna. Such loving service, thinking of the object of ones love and service, does not allow him the memory of past, present and future of the material world and its bye product of decay, forgettfulness, changing bodies, to exist. Why would he want to remember 'that which is not' (Maya)? However if Thiests looks up into the Spiritual Sky, he will see a dark cloud but that cloud (mahat-tattva) will only remind him possibly (we do not know Thiests eternal realationship with Krishna) simply of Krishna's complextion (the color of a monsoon cloud)

[Beggar]

 

Here is how I understand it.

Here is how Srila Prabhupada and the acaryas understand it,

Teachings of Queen Kuntī From : Chapter 14: Lord Kṛṣṇa's Wonderful Activities,

 

 

Space is unlimited, and the Brahma-saḿhitā suggests: Suppose one travels by spacecraft for millions of years at the velocity of the wind or even the speed of mind. Everyone knows that the mind is so swift that in even one ten-thousandth of a second it can take us millions of miles. If we have seen something millions of miles away, the mind can go there immediately. But even if we can travel at that speed on a spacecraft manufactured by muni-puńgavānām, the greatest scientists and most thoughtful men, will that be perfection? No. The Brahma-saḿhitā says, so 'py asti yat-prapada-sīmny avicintya-tattve: still this creation will remain inconceivable to our understanding. And Kṛṣṇa has created all these things, so how can we study Kṛṣṇa? If we cannot understand the things Kṛṣṇa has created, how can we understand Kṛṣṇa? It is not possible at all.

Therefore the mentality of Vṛndāvana is the perfect status of mind for devotees. The inhabitants of Vṛndāvana have no concern with understanding Kṛṣṇa. Rather, they want to love Kṛṣṇa unconditionally. It is not that they think, "Kṛṣṇa is God, and therefore I love Him." In Vṛndāvana Kṛṣṇa does not play as God; He plays there as an ordinary cowherd boy, and although at times He proves that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the devotees there do not care to know it.

 

The terms Vrndavana and Goloka are synonomous in this context.

[Vigraha]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Guruvani

Living entity refers to the sparks of the brahmajyoti, not to the liberated devotees of Vaikuntha.

This needs to be understood or so many misunderstandings arise from the sayings of Srila Prabhupada.

A devotee does not refer to another devotee as 'living entity".

It would be rude and improper.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

Guruvani's understanding is incomplete, here is the correct understanding

 

“Actually, the living entity is originally the spiritual part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, but due to his rebellious nature, he is conditioned within material nature. It really does not matter how these living entities or superior entities of the Supreme Lord have come into contact with material nature. The Supreme Personality of Godhead knows, however, how and why this actually took place.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.20, purport

 

 

<!-- / message -->

[Vigraha]

Very nice quote

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

Quote:Begger

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Therefore the mentality of Vṛndāvana is the perfect status of mind for devotees. The inhabitants of Vṛndāvana have no concern with understanding Kṛṣṇa. Rather, they want to love Kṛṣṇa unconditionally. It is not that they think, "Kṛṣṇa is God, and therefore I love Him." In Vṛndāvana Kṛṣṇa does not play as God; He plays there as an ordinary cowherd boy, and although at times He proves that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the devotees there do not care to know it.

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist

This problem is only solved with the elimination of our notions of past present and future.

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

A devotee is too absorbed in his devotional service in the eternal 'present' to Krishna to be concerned about anything else. Such loving service, thinking of the object of ones love and service, does not allow him the memory of past, present and future of the material world and its bye product of decay, forgettfulness, changing bodies, to exist. Why would he want to remember 'that which is not' (Maya)? However if one looks up into the Spiritual Sky, they may see a dark cloud, but that cloud (mahat-tattva) will only remind one possibly (we do not know our eternal realationship with Krishna) simply of Krishna's complextion (the color of a monsoon cloud)

[theist]

 

Here is how I understand it. In this material world, we have space and time coordinates to describe an event. We can observe various points in space but our senses are limited in such a way that we can observe only one point in time. To give an example, when I look at the wall in front of me, then I can see various points on that wall. This is what I mean by saying that we can observe various points in space. But when I can observe things at 8 PM of 21 Nov 2007, then I cannot observe events at any other time. This is what I mean when I say that we can observe only one point in time.

Because we are able to observe only one point in time, we have the notions of past, present, and future. The point in time that we can see is called as present, the points which we cannot see but remember having seen belong to past and the points yet to be observed belong to future.

 

Consider a world whose inhabitants are conditioned to see only one point in time and only one point in space at any given moment. They will have notions of past, present, and future for both space as well as time unlike us who have such notions only for time.

 

The residents of Golok are able to see various points in both space and time. Therefore, there is no notion of past, present, future there.

 

In 2007, you are in this material world. Suppose that in 3007, you are in Golok. What will those who are in Golok before you think about your location in 2007?

 

I feel that they will say, "Theist is on Earth in 2007. He is in Golok in 3007."

It is important to note the word "is" and not "was" even when talking about 2007. They need not use past tense because they can see all time instants.

Will they say that "Theist is in Golok in 2007"? They will provided they treat Earth also as part of Golok. This is what I also feel. I feel that when you go to Golok, you will be able to see (not video recording but directly see) what you are doing on Earth. Since you can see that, you will think that you are in Golok in 2007.

 

Interesting and enlightening Avinash. Not sure if I agree with goloka vision part but not sure I disagree either. Not sure even if I understand it properly. But it is worth serious prayerful consideration.

[theist]

 

 

 

 

In Sripad Siva Rama Swami's edition of Venu Gita, the chapters which ecompass "The flute song of Krsna" [s.B. Tenth Canto] it is explained that the sadhana siddha gopis, such as the Dandakaranya sages and other perfected devotees became gopis by engaging in devotional service. The nitya-siddhas (nitya priya) gopis, are eternally liberated gopis. The sadhana-siddha gopis who have also taken birth in the womb of the mother gopis, according to Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur, could only enter the rasa dance in the Gokula pastimes after being purified further by the association of the nitya-siddha gopis. So even in Vraja, amongst the gopis, there is a spiritual hierarchy that Vigrah, Sarva gattah, Swaupa etc. cannot fathom or appreciate as they wallow in their superficial conception of Krsna Consciousness.

 

 

 

 

 

You can add my name to that list of those that cannot fathom or appreciate the real nature of personal relationships in Goloka. Unlike yourself, I certainly only have at best a superficial conception of Krsna consciousness, but that is a whole lot better then how I started this life so I am grateful for even that.

[Beggar]

 

You can add my name to that list of those that cannot fathom or appreciate the real nature of personal relationships in Goloka. Unlike yourself, I certainly only have at best a superficial conception of Krsna consciousness, but that is a whole lot better then how I started this life so I am grateful for even that.

What ever conception that I have whether deep or superficial is only on the intellectual level. Unfortunately my heart is still as hard as a rock. The conception of our acaryas is very deep on both the jnana and vijnana levels.

We can only "hope against hope". "When will that day be mine?"

[Beggar]

Sridhar Maharaj, From Sri Guru and His Grace,

So, the absolute and the relative are two different classes of interest. And we find more importance in the absolute interest. We must be sincere to our own creed. The form is necessary to help me in a general way to maintain my present position. At the same time, my conception of the higher ideal will always goad me to advance, to go forward, and wherever I do, I must follow the greater model, the greater ideal. Spiritual life is progressive, not stagnant. We are in the stage of sadhana, and we want to go ahead, not backwards. The formal position will help me to maintain my present status, and my extraordinary affinity for the ideal will goad me towards the front. The search for Sri Krsna is dynamic and living, so adjustment and readjustment is always going on. And we should also change our present position accordingly, so that we may not have to sacrifice the high ideal for which we have come. Einstein had to leave Germany and go to America for his high ideal of life. And so many similar instances may be found in the world. The ideal is all in all. The highest ideal in a man is his highest jewel. Our most precious gem is our ideal.

[Avinash]

 

Interesting and enlightening Avinash. Not sure if I agree with goloka vision part but not sure I disagree either. Not sure even if I understand it properly. But it is worth serious prayerful consideration.

 

Here is what I was thinking when I wrote that:-

Sometimes it so happens that it is dark. We feel that somebody is hanging from a wall and he is moving his feet. We switch on lights. We find that it is not any human being but the feet of a trousers moving. We say that we were in illusion because of darkness. When there is light, then the illusion is gone.

 

Now consider this material world. The very fact that we are not liberated proves that we are still in darkness(meaning ignorance). Therefore, we are in illusion. Mistaking trousers as some human being is "illusion within illusion". When we are in Golok, then we are in knowledge and therefore no illusion.

 

When we swtich on lights, then we come to know that it was not a human being but a clothe. So, our perception of that object(clothe) now is different from what it was when it was dark.

 

Likewise, is it not possible that our perception of our current life at present will be different from what it will be when we will be in Golok? Our perception of the clothe is more accurate when lights are switched on. Can't we say that our perception of the current life in this material world will be more accurate (or may be completely accurate) when we reach Golok?

[Shakti-Fan]

We use the term "spiritual hierarchy" and it sound like the relationship between the G.B.C.s and the temple presidents. How such hierarchy plays out in Vraja:

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] "There is a different kind of etiquette there – the etiquette of love. Priya-narma sakhis are superior to other types of sakhis, but they all feel equal. They all have so much affection for each other. Even Lord Krsna will not hesitate to serve the gopis. If Lalita and Visakha see any junior sakhi, they take her as their near and dear one. There, in Goloka Vrndavana, there is nothing but an ocean of love and affection. You cannot imagine anything like this."

[Avinash]

 

Interesting 'viewpoint' but when thiest is in Goloka, is he really going to care what material body he was in 2007?

He may not care but he will be able to see when he is doing in 2007. If he does not want to see, then he will not but he will be able to. For example, if I want I can right now see what is happening behind me. All I have to do is just look back. But if I do not want to see, I will not.

 

 

After all, he has had billions of them.

He can see any of these billions as he wishes.

 

 

Isn't the eternal 'present' beyond the concept of past, present and future in the material world?

It is different in the sense that one is able to observe all points in time axis unlike in the material world where we can see only one point at any given moment.

 

 

Which means thiests' Krishna Consciousness will have no interest in what he was in the past in the material world, nor the future in the material world because Thiests is too absorbed in his devotional service in his 'present' to Krishna. Such loving service, thinking of the object of ones love and service, does not allow him the memory of past, present and future of the material world and its bye product of decay, forgettfulness, changing bodies, to exist. Why would he want to remember 'that which is not' (Maya)?

He will not need to remember. He can see. Whatever you are seeing at present, is it because of any remembrance of past incident? No, because you are seeing it at present. Likewise, when Theist will be in Golok, then he will be able to see the events at various points in time - no need to remember.

 

 

However if Thiests looks up into the Spiritual Sky, he will see a dark cloud but that cloud (mahat-tattva) will only remind him possibly (we do not know Thiests eternal realationship with Krishna) simply of Krishna's complextion (the color of a monsoon cloud)

When Theist is in Golok, then there is no need of anything to remind him of anything. He can see what is happening at any time coordinate.

[Beggar]

Avinash, go back an read post #61. The inhabitants of Goloka are not jnanis but rather bhaktas. Goloka is the "Land of Love" not the land of knowledge.

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.14.3

jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva

jīvanti san-mukharitāḿ bhavadīya-vārtām

sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāḿ tanu-vāń-manobhir

ye prāyaśo 'jita jito 'py asi tais tri-lokyām

SYNONYMS

jñāne — for knowledge; prayāsam — the endeavor; udapāsya — giving up completely; namantaḥ — offering obeisances; eva — simply; jīvanti — live; sat-mukharitām — chanted by the pure devotees; bhavadīya-vārtām — topics related to You; sthāne — in their material position; sthitāḥ — remaining; śruti-gatām — received by hearing; tanu — with their body; vāk — words; manobhiḥ — and mind; ye — who; prāyaśaḥ — for the most part; ajita — O unconquerable one; jitaḥ — conquered; api — nevertheless; asi — You become; taiḥ — by them; tri-lokyām — within the three worlds.

 

TRANSLATION

 

 

Those who, even while remaining situated in their established social positions, throw away the process of speculative knowledge and with their body, words and mind offer all respects to descriptions of Your personality and activities, dedicating their lives to these narrations, which are vibrated by You personally and by Your pure devotees, certainly conquer Your Lordship, although You are otherwise unconquerable by anyone within the three worlds.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Avinash]

I agree that Golok is land of love. I never said it is land of knowledge. I can see with my eyes what is happening on my monitor at present. It does not mean that I am very good at speculative knowledge. Likewise, residents of Golok can see various points in time even though they have thrown off speculative knowledge.

[Beggar]

 

Likewise, residents of Golok can see various points in time even though they have thrown off speculative knowledge.

The time you are talking about exist within the material world. The residents of Goloka are not even aware of the existence of the material world except perhaps in relationship to Krsna's prakat lila. In other words they know only Krsna and even that is a figurative statement which means that Krsna is their life and soul (another figurative statement). They are not even aware that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead lest the mechanics of His material creation.

[Avinash]

What happens to the knowledge they had before they entered Golok? Does that knowledge get wiped out?

[Beggar]

 

What happens to the knpwledge they had before they entered Golok? Does that knowledge get wiped out?

Every detail of these things is not covered in the sastras or by the acaryas because, again - the subject is not jnana or knowlege. So knowing is not the goal. Knowing for instance that Krsna's janma (appearence) and karma (activities) are divyam or transcendental are preliminary for bhakti for aspiring practitioners in this world. But in the highest realm of the spiritual world the opposite is the case, so the residents there, just think that Krsna is a beautiful young boy or maybe some kind of demigod who has been empowered by Narayana to do amazing acts. It is called jnana-sunya bhakti. I cannot remember the source, but I have heard it said (perhaps Brhat Bhagavatamrtra by Sanatana Goswami) that the newcomers can remember their last llives, but then the entire memory of that will fade away.