Is there class discrimination in Goloka?

[theist]

 

Likewise, is it not possible that our perception of our current life at present will be different from what it will be when we will be in Golok? Our perception of the clothe is more accurate when lights are switched on. Can't we say that our perception of the current life in this material world will be more accurate (or may be completely accurate) when we reach Golok?

 

 

Different certainly. But what about the idea that we in reality never were factually in the material world at all. best example in when we wake up from a dream of being chased by a tiger through the jungle and realize we really are safe at home on our sleeping mat. The whole idea of the dream world is gone in a flash.

 

The other residents were not dreaming your dream have no conception at all of your dream world and don't see you in any jungle at all. Presently you are with them as you always were.

 

The flaw of material time conception can still be found in the example but then no metaphor can be perfect.

[Beggar]

 

Different certainly. But what about the idea that we in reality never were factually in the material world at all. best example in when we wake up from a dream of being chased by a tiger through the jungle and realize we really are safe at home on our sleeping mat. The whole idea of the dream world is gone in a flash.

 

The other residents were not dreaming your dream have no conception at all of your dream world and don't see you in any jungle at all. Presently you are with them as you always were.

 

The flaw of material time conception can still be found in the example but then no metaphor can be perfect.

This idea derives from the "nitya-siddha krsna prema" verse in Caitanya Caritamrta. But it has a particular meaning in a particular context. Also in Brhat Bhagavamrta Srila Sanatana Goswami has described how Krsna greets the "newcomer", the Gopa Kumar. Theoretically it would seem that we would be there in a flash but Brhat Bhagavamrta descibes the Gopa Kumar's sojourn home as unfolding in stages. Some of these stages take him to different parts of the Vaikunthas which are considered by "tatastha vicar", the objective viewpoint, to be lower than Vraja. Then there is his "return" described here:

 

Loving Search For The Lost Servant, Inroduction, Srila Sridhar Maharaj,

Great intensity is expressed here in a simple way. It is a mad search -- an urgent campaign. With great earnestness Krishna comes to deliver His lost servants; Krishna comes to take us home. In Brhad Bhagavatamrta, it is written that once, as Krishna and the cows were returning from the Vrindavan forest at the end of the day, a boy had just attained spiritual emancipation and entered Vrindavan as a cowherd boy [sakhya rasa]. Seeing His long lost servant, Krishna embraced him and both of them fainted in ecstasy.

All of Krishna's other cowherd friends were astounded, thinking, "What is this? Krishna has lost His senses by embracing this newcomer! How is it possible?" Then, as all of the cowherd boys looked on astonished, Balaram came to Krishna's relief and somehow managed to rouse Him.

Then Krishna addressed His friend with great affection: "Why did you stay away? Why have you been living away from home for so long? How was it possible for you? How could you bear My separation? You left Me, and you have been passing lives after lives without Me? Still, I know what trouble you took to return to Me. You searched for Me everywhere, and went to beg from house to house, and you were chastised by many, ridiculed by many, and you shed tears for Me. I know all these things. I was with you. And now, after great trouble, you have again come back to Me." Krishna addressed His long lost servant and welcomed him thus. And when Krishna returned home, He took the newcomer by His side to take Prasadam. In this way, a new recruit is earnestly welcomed by Krishna Himself.

 

[Avinash]

 

But what about the idea that we in reality never were factually in the material world at all. best example in when we wake up from a dream of being chased by a tiger through the jungle and realize we really are safe at home on our sleeping mat. The whole idea of the dream world is gone in a flash.

 

The other residents were not dreaming your dream have no conception at all of your dream world and don't see you in any jungle at all. Presently you are with them as you always were.

 

So, let us consider the possibility that we are still in spiritual world but dreaming ourselves to be in material world. Those who are in Golok at present are not dreaming but we are dreaming. Suppose those residents look at what you are doing in 2007. What do they see? They see that you are dreaming. Of course, they are not dreaming. But they see you dreaming. They see that you are factually in spiritual world but you are dreaming of being in material world.

 

If we are factually not in material world and we are only dreaming to be in material world, then is it possible that material world does not even exist in fact? Its existence is merely a dream?

[Beggar]

 

So, let us consider the possibility that we are still in spiritual world but dreaming ourselves to be in material world. Those who are in Golok at present are not dreaming but we are dreaming. Suppose those residents look at what you are doing in 2007. What do they see? They see that you are dreaming. Of course, they are not dreaming. But they see you dreaming. They see that you are factually in spiritual world but you are dreaming of being in material world.

 

If we are factually not in material world and we are only dreaming to be in material world, then is it possible that material world does not even exist in fact? Its existence is merely a dream?

 

We've been around this block a thousand times in the last few months. There is no sastric basis for your theory just a few analogies given by Srila Prabhupada which are taken out of the context of the many opposite statements in his books. Go back and read all the posts and counter posts. Generally this thread is addressing the origin of the soul conception in an indirect way. The conception that the jiva souls are generated out of the tatastha sakti, which are also inconcievibly, theselves tatastha sakti and that there are divine servitors who never fall or "dream " that they fall is intrinsic to the concept of "servant of the servant".

[Guruvani]

This purport by Srila Prabhupada explains nicely that the spiritual body is something that must be developed and attained. The wording in this purport clearly shows that the spiritual body has to be developed by the spiritual spark. The spirit spark must develop a spiritual body through devotional service.

Otherwise, like the Mayavadis, the spirit spark remains without a spiritual body as a spark of the brahmajyoti.

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.2.17 purport,

 

For the impersonalist the ultimate goal or destination is the brahmajyoti of the spiritual sky, but for the devotees the ultimate goal is the Vaikuṇṭha planets. The devotees experience the above-mentioned state of affairs by attainment of spiritual forms for activity in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. But the impersonalist, because of his neglecting the association of the Lord, does not develop a spiritual body for spiritual activity, but remains a spiritual spark only, merged in the effulgent spiritual rays of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

So, this is the original situation of the living entities who are simply spirit sparks in the brahmajyoti.

They have no spiritual body.

The spiritual body is DEVELOPED through devotional service, otherwise the spirit spark has no secret, hidden, sleeping spiritual body laying around Vaikuntha like a zombie.

 

 

The Vaikuṇṭha planets are also forms of eternity, bliss and knowledge, and therefore the devotees of the Lord, who are admitted into the abode of the Lord, also get bodies of eternity, bliss and knowledge.

 

"Get bodies" is far from reviving a comatose spiritual body.

"Get bodies" means that they didn't have one so they "get bodies" for entering into Vaikuntha.

[theist]

 

So, let us consider the possibility that we are still in spiritual world but dreaming ourselves to be in material world. Those who are in Golok at present are not dreaming but we are dreaming. Suppose those residents look at what you are doing in 2007. What do they see? They see that you are dreaming. Of course, they are not dreaming. But they see you dreaming. They see that you are factually in spiritual world but you are dreaming of being in material world.

 

If we are factually not in material world and we are only dreaming to be in material world, then is it possible that material world does not even exist in fact? Its existence is merely a dream?

 

Yes the material world does not exist in fact. It only appears to exist that is why it is called maya. Now it is a real dream. Someone in the spiritual world would not see another dreamong because no one is dreaming there. This is the apparent paradox that everyone gets hung up on.

 

No one is dreaming there because there is no past or future and when the soul wakes up he ws never asleep. This is where the material idea of dreaming breaks down.

[Beggar]

 

Yes the material world does not exist in fact. It only appears to exist that is why it is called maya. Now it is a real dream. Someone in the spiritual world would not see another dreamong because no one is dreaming there. This is the apparent paradox that everyone gets hung up on.

 

No one is dreaming there because there is no past or future and when the soul wakes up he ws never asleep. This is where the material idea of dreaming breaks down.

 

While these concepts certainly have a particular validity in an interesting angle of vision, they are not part of the ultimate devotional conclusion. I wrote in post #79,

 

The conception that the jiva souls are generated out of the tatastha sakti, which are also inconceivably themselves tatastha sakti and that there are divine servitors who never fall or "dream " that they fall is intrinsic to the concept of "servant of the servant".

Conversly the idea that all of Krsna's servitors are already in Goloka and somehow inconceivably dreaming that they are here, naturally precludes the conception of dasa dasa nudas, servant of the servant of the servant. Such a concept democratizes the spiritual community of Krsna's servants and does not recognize the preeminent position of those who have never deviated from Krsna's service.

[Guruvani]

 

Yes the material world does not exist in fact. It only appears to exist that is why it is called maya.

That's hogwwash.

The material world exists for real and that is where you are right now.

It is called illusion only because it is temporary.

Otherwise, you are definitely in the material world, it is real and you are thinking that the material energy is for your enjoyment.

 

That is the only maya.

Maya means that which is not.

The material energy is real.

That which is not is that you are not the Lord of all you survey.

The material world is real.

You are here.

Your dream that you are the enjoyer of the senses is the only illusion you have to overcome.

 

The material energy is simply what the spiritual energy becomes when you try to exploit it.

It is real.

Your ego is not.

[Beggar]

 

Yes the material world does not exist in fact. It only appears to exist that is why it is called maya. Now it is a real dream.

 

 

That's hogwwash.

 

Theist appears to be trying to modify his first statement with the idea that if it is a dream then it is a real dream. Makes some sense, but the totality of material existence is Maha Visnu's dream. We need to be careful when we write or speak or others who don't know siddhanta will actually think that the world is false.

 

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, if material nature is the absence of Krsna, then what is material?

Srila Prabhupada: Nothing is material. If you continue Krsna consciousness, there's nothing material. When we offer this flower in Krsna consciousness, is it material?

Devotee: No.

Srila Prabhupada: So how has it become spiritual? It was material in the tree and now it has become spiritual? No. It is spiritual. As long as I was thinking that it is meant for my enjoyment, it was material. As soon as I take it for Krsna's enjoyment, it is spiritual.

Devotee: So actually this entire world is spritual.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. That we want - to engage everything in Krsna's service. Then this world will be the spiritual world.

Devotee: So we can also appreciate Krsna's creation in that light? For example, this flower is very beautiful because it is Krsna's.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. We realize that. The Mayavadi philosophy says jagan mithya: "This world is false." We don't say that. Krsna has created so many nice things for His enjoyment, why shall I say mithya [false]? Suppose you build a nice house and you call me. "Just see," and I say, "It is all mithya."

Devotee: I'll be offended, because I can't enjoy it if it is false.

Srila Prabhupada: [Laughing]: How depressed you'll be! The Bhagavad-gita explains that the demons say like this - asatyam apratistham te jagad ahur anisvaram. The rascals, the demons say that this world is asatya, untruth, and that there is no cause, no isvara. This is the declaration of the demons. But if Krsna is a fact. His creation is a fact. His energy is a fact. Why shall I say it is false? We don't say it is false. the Mayavadis say it is false.

 

Got to go. We always wash the hogs the evening before U.S. Thanksgiving.

[Vigraha]

 

Yes the material world does not exist in fact. It only appears to exist that is why it is called maya. Now it is a real dream. Someone in the spiritual world would not see another dreamong because no one is dreaming there. This is the apparent paradox that everyone gets hung up on.

 

No one is dreaming there because there is no past or future and when the soul wakes up he ws never asleep. This is where the material idea of dreaming breaks down.

 

Correct

 

Yes the devotees see the material world as temporary but that is what illusion really means

So Theist is correct in saying the material is not real because genuine reality never fades away. The material world is only real in passing so for that reason it is illusion or Maya - MAYA MEANS THAT WHICH IS NOT (MEANING THE MATERIAL CREATION OR MAHAT-TATTVA IS ILLUSION)

Srila Prabhupada - The living entity's constitutional position is to be a servitor; he has to serve either the illusory Maya or the Supreme Lord. If he serves the Supreme Lord he is in his normal condition, but if he prefers to serve the illusory, external energy, then certainly he will be in bondage.

Srila Prabhupada - In illusion the living entity is serving in this material world. He is bound by his lust and desires, yet he thinks of himself as the master of the world. This is called illusion.

Srila Prabhupada - When a person is liberated, his illusion is over, and he voluntarily surrenders unto the Supreme to act according to His desires.

Srila Prabhupada - The last illusion, the last snare of Maya to trap the living entity, is the proposition that he is God. The living entity thinks that he is no longer a conditioned soul, but God. He is so unintelligent that he does not think that if he were God, then how could he be in doubt? That he does not consider. So that is the last snare of illusion.

Srila Prabhupada - Actually to become free from the illusory energy is to understand Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and agree to act according to His order.

Srila Prabhupada - Real knowledge is the understanding that every living being is eternally a servitor of the Lord, but instead of thinking oneself in that position, the living entity thinks that he is not a servant, that he is the master of this material world, for he wants to lord it over the material nature. That is his illusion. This illusion can be overcome by the mercy of the Lord or by the mercy of a pure devotee. When that illusion is over, one agrees to act in Krishna consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada - A conditioned soul, illusioned by the external energy of matter, does not know that the Supreme Lord is the master who is full of knowledge and who is the proprietor of everything.

Srila Prabhupada - One who does not know Him (Krishna) is under the spell of illusion; he does not become a devotee, but a servitor of Maya. Arjuna, however, after hearing Bhagavad-gita from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, became free from all illusion. - http://vedabase.net/bg/18/73/en1 B.G. 18.73

Srila Prabhupada - As living spiritual souls, we are all originally Krishna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness is now polluted by the material atmosphere, called Maya, or illusion.

And what is this illusion?

The illusion is that we are all trying to be lords of material nature, while actually we are under the grip of her stringent laws. When a servant artificially tries to imitate the all-powerful master, he is said to be in illusion. Translation to the Hare Krishna mantra 1966

When the mayavadi's say the world is an illusion, to them nothing is real because they have no concept that Krishna is the Supreme Creator and enjoys His eternal pastimes in the eternal 'presents’ or Goloka, the permanent imperishable Krishna Conscious Spiritual Sky. The devotees on the other hand see that if it is not permanent, then it is illusion, only because it does not include Krishna. In this way, that which is illusion means it is temporary, decaying, fading, to the point that eventually it will appear as if it never was – that which is not - Maya.

[Vigraha]

 

He may not care but he will be able to see when he is doing in 2007. If he does not want to see, then he will not but he will be able to. For example, if I want I can right now see what is happening behind me. All I have to do is just look back. But if I do not want to see, I will not.

 

He can see any of these billions as he wishes.

 

It is different in the sense that one is able to observe all points in time axis unlike in the material world where we can see only one point at any given moment.

 

He will not need to remember. He can see. Whatever you are seeing at present, is it because of any remembrance of past incident? No, because you are seeing it at present. Likewise, when Theist will be in Golok, then he will be able to see the events at various points in time - no need to remember.

 

 

When Theist is in Golok, then there is no need of anything to remind him of anything. He can see what is happening at any time coordinate.

 

 

When Theist leaves the restricted material universe of past, present, future, decay, birth, disease, old age and death, he will enter the Krishna Conscious majority portion of the Spiritual Sky.

 

His experiences in the material creation will be of no real significance and is compared to the experiences he imagines or conjures up while resting at night in his present body. In fact his total adaptation into his perpetual service to Krishna will have the phenomenal effect that will make him feel that he has always been with Krishna in Goloka (the eternal ‘presents’)

 

This is what serving Krishna in the eternal presents means, nothing else other that that rasa has any significants. It is for this reason ones ‘svarupa’ body has always been because Theist will only be interested in serving Krishna, everything else (his experience in the material world) will be as if it never was, hence the word Maya – that which is not.

 

P.s. I hope Theist is not offended by using him as an example

[Avinash]

 

P.s. I hope Theist is not offended by using him as an example

On the contrary, I think he must be feeling very proud and elated that he is being used as an example.

[theist]

 

While these concepts certainly have a particular validity in an interesting angle of vision, they are not part of the ultimate devotional conclusion. I wrote in post #79,

 

Conversly the idea that all of Krsna's servitors are already in Goloka and somehow inconceivably dreaming that they are here, naturally precludes the conception of dasa dasa nudas, servant of the servant of the servant. Such a concept democratizes the spiritual community of Krsna's servants and does not recognize the preeminent position of those who have never deviated from Krsna's service.

 

What? Who said anything about all of Krsna's servant's are dreaming? Show exactly where anyone has claimed this?

[theist]

 

Theist appears to be trying to modify his first statement with the idea that if it is a dream then it is a real dream. Makes some sense, but the totality of material existence is Maha Visnu's dream. We need to be careful when we write or speak or others who don't know siddhanta will actually think that the world is false.

 

 

 

Modify? hardly I have said the same trhing a thousand times, several in the last few days on this board and going back to the old VNN days in the late 90's. perhaps you are just starting to catch on to what we are talking about.

 

Careful yes, please take your own advice. At least you agree it is Maha-vishnu's dream. That is the first step in understanding this manifested creation.

 

Now consider this. The reason Maha-vishnu has dreamt this material field into existence is to fullfill the desires of the living entities who want to try their hand at playing the prime enjoyer. The Lord doesn't personally want a prision house or insane asylum but it is forced upon Him to create such by the wayward jivas who misuse their minute independence.

 

Independence has no meaning without an outlet to practice that independence.

 

Those desires are known as dreams or fantasies. Fantasy or dream identities are attached to the consciousness of the self by the deluding energy called ahankara. Deluded as in delusion.

 

The real identity is nitai svarupa krsna das. That has to be covered up or forgotten before the false or dream identity can take hold. That is left on th other side of the bramajyoti or the river Viraja as some like to say and the jiva headed more and more into the dreamworld tries to make up for the identity vacuum by clinging to what is offered by ahankara.

 

So what we have is Maha-vishnu creating the massive material field mahat-tattva which is moldable by and responds to the desires of the living entities as they make new attempts. This idea is made clear when Lord Brahma starts to manifest new material forms at the beginning of a new creation. Those new forms are not arbitrary but are based on the desires the living entities had with them at the time of the last universal destruction. It is those living entities and their subtle bodies which are referred to or form the stem of the lotus upon which Brahma is said to be seated.

 

So the Lord is the primary creator and Brahma is the secondary creator who creates varieties according to the established desires held by the dreaming souls.

 

Thus we have the macro-dreamer Maha-vishnu and the micro-dreamers the jivas.

 

Both are dreaming. You are a jiva in the material field. Have you never dreamed? Well at night all will admit. And then in the daytime we admit to daydreaming some times. The wiser understand that the totality of this "waking" experience is non-different than the dreams at night to the soul. You are not dreaming some time and then waking up at othertimes. You are dreaming all the time and only experiencing different forms of dreams. Waking up means self realization. Surely you do not consider that when your body wakes up in the morning that is self realization do you?

 

You waking life has gone through so many changes in the last 40 or 50 years. Your self-identification has morphed from baby to boyhood to old age and in so many other ways exactly like at night we may play many roles in the same dream sequence. The differnce is on this so-called waking side the duration is longer and changes slower which tricks us into thinking that that makes it somehow more real. It is not more real! That is why this whole cosmic show is called the Lord's illusory energy. It's all illusion. It appears to be but is not. Maya.

 

We are dreaming our little roles within Maha-vishnu's Maha-dream (mahat-tattva).

 

This has been said over and over with substational quotations from Srila Prabhupada by the souls Sarvah gattha, Vigraha and others and they have received heaps of ridicule from several of you and have not bothered to respond in kind. Hopefully at least that part of the exchange can be put to rest and we can preserve the "siddhanta" of gentlemanly discourse in the future.

[theist]

 

On the contrary, I think he must be feeling very proud and elated that he is being used as an example.

 

 

Elated? Yes this is great since you guys are having me liberated in Goloka. I rather like this kind of talk.

 

Unfortunately it all seems a dream to me at this point.

[Avinash]

So, you are saying that we are in Golok. We feel we are on Earth because we dream of being on Earth. What about those living in Vaikunth? Are they really in Vaikunth or are they in Golok and dreaming of being in Vaikunth?

[Guruvani]

 

So, you are saying that we are in Golok. We feel we are on Earth because we dream of being on Earth. What about those living in Vaikunth? Are they really in Vaikunth or are they in Golok and dreaming of being in Vaikunth?

 

That is a good question.

The fall-from-goloka advocates that are known popularly as "spleepervadis" and or "dreamervadis" have manufactured a theory that the fallen jivas all have a spiritual form in Goloka that they have presently become unconscious of. They presume that somehow, someway their spiritual body is there in the presence of Krishna but they the soul have somehow become victim of maya and cannot realize that they are in Goloka looking Lord Krishna in the face.

 

Anyway, this is just a theory that some fringe devotees are advocating.

Senior ISKCON devotees and the BBT scholars reject such a theory as totally bogus speculation.

 

On an official BBT website that dreamervadi theory is defeated and the proper understanding of the fall of the jiva is properly explained.

 

http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/philosophy2.htm#4

[Avinash]

As of now, I neither agree nor disagree with what Theist's point is. I am just discussing on it with him considering it as logical possibility.

I am going through that BBT link that you posted.

[Beggar]

 

The Lord doesn't personally want a prision house or insane asylum but it is forced upon Him to create such by the wayward jivas who misuse their minute independence.

 

forced upon Him

???

Srimad Bhagavatam 1.1.1.

 

janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ svarāt

janma-ādi — creation, sustenance and destruction; asya — of the manifested universes; yataḥ — from whom; anvayāt — directly; itarataḥ — indirectly; ca — and; artheṣu — purposes; abhijñaḥ — fully cognizant; sva-rāṭ — fully independent;

O my Lord, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, son of Vasudeva, O all-pervading Personality of Godhead, I offer my respectful obeisances unto You. I meditate upon Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa because He is the Absolute Truth and the primeval cause of all causes of the creation, sustenance and destruction of the manifested universes. He is directly and indirectly conscious of all manifestations, and He is independent because there is no other cause beyond Him.

There is a famous Vedic aphorism often quoted by Srila Prabhpada, "Although I am one, I shall become many." The Lord by His sweet will desires to become many in order to engage in pastimes of love.

Yet love must be free and not forced otherwise it is not love. Based on this Vedic aphorism and Srimad Bhagavatam 1.1.1. we can see that even the creation, sustenance and destruction of the material world is a kind of lila or pastime of the Lord.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

The Lord doesn't personally want a prision house or insane asylum but it is forced upon Him to create such by the wayward jivas who misuse their minute independence.

 

So, we can *force* the Lord to do things? Can I force the Lord to give me a Mercedes Benz?

 

This is certainly news to me!!

 

Previously, I had heard that only by the love of His pure devotee can the Lord be captivated and subjugated. Now you say we can force the Lord's hand by misusing our independence? Inconceivable!!

[theist]

Force is to be understood with the idea of independence as I stated already.

 

Some of you folks thinks that a dog being smashed by a semi-truck or a cow having it's throat slit in a slaughterhouse if Krsna's-lila apparently and He is just doing all this for His pleasure. That is a way of calling krsna a sadist IMO. Maybe you should join forces with the eternal damnation branch of the christian church.

 

We are told in Ispanishad that the Lord is the self sufficent philosopher who has been awarding everyone's desires since time immemorial. Not taking pleasure out of watching the soul's experience the suffering of birth, death, old age and disease.

 

Krsna's will is known by the fact that He sends his representatives to save the souls from this world and take them back to the spiritual world. Now if His will is that they be there why did he make the material world in the first place? To fullfill the desires of the wayward souls who want to act independently. If He refuses to allow that freedom to the soul then the whole foundation of existence is destroyed. Love for Krsna is the foundation and love is predicated on free will.

 

Being a love slave is different than being a slave in chains and motivated to work by the whip.

 

Noe how about the rest of the post. Ignore it all and focus on one word to argue over. Let's hear it from you beggar are you dreamng or not? Let us see if you have modified your position that only Maha-vishnu is dreaming.

[theist]

 

So, you are saying that we are in Golok. We feel we are on Earth because we dream of being on Earth. What about those living in Vaikunth? Are they really in Vaikunth or are they in Golok and dreaming of being in Vaikunth?

 

My position is that we are in a dreaming condition. That could be from Goloka or Vaikuntha or the Brahman effulgence. I take no position on the origin of the soul question. My point is that we are dreaming and that is all.

 

How these people are opposing that simple and obvious fact is really beyond me.

[Guruvani]

 

My position is that we are in a dreaming condition. That could be from Goloka or Vaikuntha or the Brahman effulgence. .

From what I gather, you are a dreamervadi from the Bay area of San Francisco?

You have my sympathy.

Happy Holiday from North Florida and the largest settlement of Hare Krishna devotees in the western hemisphere.

 

God bless the Turkeys and give them a higher birth in their next life.

Maybe, if they are lucky they can take birth as a dreamervadi from Australia in their next life?

 

 

[Beggar]

 

Let's hear it from you beggar are you dreamng or not? Let us see if you have modified your position that only Maha-vishnu is dreaming.

No one including Guruvani or myself has asserted that Srila Prabhpada's statements about our material experience being like a dream are not valid. If we pay attention to our dream experiences we will see how they are sometimes more similar to our real consciousness than our so-called waking consciousness. After all if we find ourselves chanting in our dream or if we are seeing Prabhupada in a dream, it seems very profound. Perhaps part of this is the creative nature of consciousness.

The next point and one that I've made in several posts over the last few weeks is that the idea that we are already liberated, which Srila Prabhupada talked about in several quotes, is really a paraphrase of the nitya siddha krsna prema sadhya kabu naya verse of C.C.

Anyway these are different angle of vision, like points on a line, or circles in a sphere (which are infinite or infintesimal). The Krsna Conscious theology must take into account all poles of the inconceivable differences and harmonized them in a cohesive way. The spirit sould is not really a spiritual spark but it is like a spark. And the Supreme spirit is not really a sun but rather like a sun. We only have experience of a spark or even the sun within this world, analogies always fall short. They only convey an idea which in a sense is beyond our brain to concieve.

Still that we are dreaming in Goloka that we are here in samsara is not taking into consideration the preeminent postion of those souls who "never have deviated from Krsna's service." Then if a fallen soul or (one who is dreaming he is fallen) would have Krsna's promise that once attaining the spiritual planets he will never come back. This puts the fallen "vitiated" souls in a superior position to those servitors in Goloka who never give up Krsna's service. Here is where such a paradigm fall short for in fails to take into consideration this and other major contradictions. Consequently both the Fall and Dreamer theories cannot be the "conclusion".

In the words of Narasimha Maharaja,

 

According to the OOP book A.C. Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada sometimes says the jiva falls from association with Krsna and sometimes he says the jiva does not fall. This then becomes a paradox. A paradox is a statement, proposition or situation that seems to be absurd or contradictory, but in fact is or may be true. OOP therefore suggests that the jiva falls and doesn't fall simultaneously. But when A. C Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada himself states the conclusion, then the so-called 'paradox' created by some of his followers, vanishes.

According to the Bhaktivedanta purport on Srimad Bhagavatam 3.16.26:

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode."

This conclusion, which completely negates the so-called paradoxical view created in the OOP book ("Our Original Position" (OOP) published by the Iskcon GBC Press), is also upheld by sastra and previous acaryas such as Jiva Gosvami, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, and all bona fide devotees in the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya. The conclusion is that the jivas, that are now conditioned by the modes of material nature and originate in the 'tatastha' or the marginal plane of existence, did not fall from the spiritual world.

Ignoring the conclusion of their spiritual master, the authors of the OOP book insist that the jiva falls from the spiritual world. Thus their opinions are taken simply as faulty interpolations.

[theist]

 

beggar:No one including Guruvani or myself has asserted that Srila Prabhpada's statements about our material experience being like a dream are not valid.

 

Gee I could have sworn it was you two who were mocking others about being "dream-vadis" and "sleeper-vadis" ad nauseum.

 

Must have been a bad dream on my part.