Is there class discrimination in Goloka?

Beggar · November 24, 2007

Jayadvaita Swami is a career guru in ISKCON who supports the GBC party line to keep his position as a career guru in ISKCON secure.

You can't trust these career ISKCON gurus.

They all have a good reason for not telling the truth or standing up for what is right.

They are sold out to the GBC committee and don't want to do anything to jeapardize their cushy position as a career ISKCON guru who couldn't possibly survive on their own merits outside of ISKCON.

What a load of nonsense towards a great devotee of Krishna and dear disciple of Srila Prabhupada.

During the early '80s Jayadvaita Maharaja maintained a secret relationship with what became the Sridhar Maharaja camp. It was Drutakarma who drove a wedge between Ramesvara Maharaja and the TP, Dhira Krsna Maharaja during the spring of 1981 by using the argument that those who accepted Srila Sridhar Maharaja's explaination of the origin of the jiva were disloyal to the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. Eventually this led to the North American GBC led by Bhavananda banning Sridhar Maharaja's vani in ISKCON, North America. This man is having homosexual relationships and is then becoming the driving force to ban the sadhu who Srila Prabhupada called "my siksa guru"! At the time Jayadvaita Maharaja knew all these things and was greatly saddened by these events. Yet within a few months the repression spread worldwide. Yet he secretly maintained his connection with the leaders of those devotees who followed their hearts and refused to renounce Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Of course then the years began to fly by and the GBC, at the urging of Jayadvaita Maharaja, made some half-hearted posthumous apology to Srila Sridhar Maharaja after his disappearance. Nowadays, Jayadvaita Maharaja makes a show of public support for the official GBC position on the fall of the jiva. I'm not really sure about his real current position, and I really doubt that he does either.

Beggar · November 24, 2007

In the fall of 2003 I had a conversation with Hrdayananda Maharaja where I confronted him on the GBC's official position on the origin of the GBC. I gave him the basic arguments myself and Guruvani have presented here in the last few months. He gave the Fall-Vadi position. Finally I told him, "Maharaja you a saying that Srila Prabhupada is giving something different on this subject than Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Srila Bhaktisidhanta Saraswati Thakur." He replied, "yes, Srila Prabhupada gave a new realization on this topic that no one has ever given before". I said, "Maharaja do you understand what you are saying, no one has ever said this before". He looked back and told me, "yes, after studying the situation, this is what I believe." I just had the distinct feeling that he actually didn't even care what is true or not. Later that evening I listened to his class and could barely contain myself. He was giving new unique translations to Srila Prabhupada's translated Gita and Bhagavatam verses and making vailed criticism of Prabhupada's translations. The audience which included experience devotees just sat there and smiled.

Murali_Mohan_das · November 24, 2007

No doubt, this is all nectar to certain persons' ears.

In the fall of 2003 I had a conversation with Hrdayananda Maharaja where I confronted him on the GBC's official position on the origin of the GBC. I gave him the basic arguments myself and Guruvani have presented here in the last few months. He gave the Fall-Vadi position. Finally I told him, "Maharaja you a saying that Srila Prabhupada is giving something different on this subject than Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Srila Bhaktisidhanta Saraswati Thakur." He replied, "yes, Srila Prabhupada gave a new realization on this topic that no one has ever given before". I said, "Maharaja do you understand what you are saying, no one has ever said this before". He looked back and told me, "yes, after studying the situation, this is what I believe." I just had the distinct feeling that he actually didn't even care what is true or not. Later that evening I listened to his class and could barely contain myself. He was giving new unique translations to Srila Prabhupada's translated Gita and Bhagavatam verses and making vailed criticism of Prabhupada's translations. The audience which included experience devotees just sat there and smiled.

Guruvani · November 24, 2007

The whole fact of the matter on this origins/fall-from-goloka debate has to do with a lot more than just the philosophical issue itself.

That is why the pro-fall camp and the anti-fall camp continue to battle it out over this issue year after year after year.

Because really it is about career ISKCON gurus kissing-up to the GBC and the GBC trying to defend a strongly held position that was originally used as a device to debunk Sridhar Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja and all other-than-ISKCON-GBC Gaudiya Vaishnavas that the career ISKCON gurus and Career GBC managers wanted to discredit in hopes of keeping all the followers of Srila Prabhupada under their control and authority.

Only a sold-out ISKCON cronie would be on the internet fighting so hard to defend the fall-from-goloka proponents.

Only someone with something to lose if the truth comes out would be on the internet trying so hard to defend the fall-from-goloka fairytale that has turned ISKCON into the laughing stock of the Gaudiya world.

It is not just about the philosophical issue itself.

It is about blasphemy and accusations of Mayavada that the ISKCON GBC has been launching at Sridhar Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja and all other-than-ISKCON Gaudiya Vaishnavas and their dogged determination to never admit they were wrong all along and simply promoting party-politics in their pursuit of power, prestige and position in ISKCON.

On the other side of the coin the debate is about defending the integrity of Sridhar Maharaja, Puri Maharaja and all the senior sannyasis and gurus who were direct disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur as well as others like Narayana Maharaja.

So, for the little pea-brains out there that keep mocking the debate like it is just some silly origins debate, they can't understand what is at stake and why the debate is about a lot more than just some origins debate.

It is about the main philosophical issue that the ISKCON GBC and career ISKCON gurus have been using for years to accuse all the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada and their disciples of preaching Mayavada because they have never preached the fall-from-goloka fairytale that never existed in the Gaudiya sampradaya till some ISKCON crackpots invented the idea after the passing of Srila Prabhupada.

So, that is why both sides keep debating the issue.

There is more at stake than just some philosophical issue.

The GBC stands to lose a lot of credibility if they ever admit that shastrically, traditionally and philosophically the fall-from-goloka fairytale is an heresy of Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta.

So, they have their cronie on the internet trying to defend the fall-from-goloka fairytale from the rest of the Gaudiya Vaishnava world that does not accept or support such heresy of the Gaudiya siddhanta.

All that these career ISKCON gurus and GBC cronies are doing is securing themselves in the history books of the Hare Krishna movement as a cult of oddballs who tried to change the Gaudiya siddhanta with a couple of letters and statements that Srila Prabhupada gave to some western neophytes who were grappling with trying to understand.

In the end they are going to look very foolish and neophyte.

I guess the truth will come out as time goes on and Gaudiya Vaishnavism outside of ISKCON become more expansive than the ISKCON sect.

The career gurus and GBC cronies will never admit they were wrong.

They have too much at stake.

So, they have their yard-dog on the internet trying to promote sleepervada and keep as many people as possible duped with the fairytale siddhanta.

Guruvani · November 24, 2007

In the fall of 2003 I had a conversation with Hrdayananda Maharaja where I confronted him on the GBC's official position on the origin of the GBC. I gave him the basic arguments myself and Guruvani have presented here in the last few months. He gave the Fall-Vadi position. Finally I told him, "Maharaja you a saying that Srila Prabhupada is giving something different on this subject than Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Srila Bhaktisidhanta Saraswati Thakur." He replied, "yes, Srila Prabhupada gave a new realization on this topic that no one has ever given before". I said, "Maharaja do you understand what you are saying, no one has ever said this before". He looked back and told me, "yes, after studying the situation, this is what I believe."

So Hridayananda Swami is saying that Srila Prabhupada is a heretic who changed the Gaudiya siddhanta.

An he calls himself a guru and a disciple of Srila Prabhupada?

Not in my book.

Position and prestige is what is on their agenda.

Truth and siddhanta is NOT their concern.

They just want their career guru positions in ISKCON at any price - even at the price of sacrificing Bhagavat-siddhanta for their own personal ambitions.

Beggar · November 24, 2007

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Who is Acaryadeva?

<table align="right" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="145"> <tbody> <tr><td> </td></tr> </tbody></table>  H.H. Hridayananda dasa Goswami (Dr. Howard J. Resnick, Ph.D.) is one of the most respected spiritual leaders of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. In modern times, amongst the most essential tasks of the Krishna conscious spiritual masters has been to translate the Vedic scriptures of millennial India to modern languages and to distribute them profusely all over the world. H.H. Hridayananda dasa Goswami has accepted this mission as his life and soul.

H.H. Hridayananda dasa Goswami appeared in this world in November 5, 1948, in Los Angeles, California. Due to his academic merits, he secured a full scholarship for the University of California, where he first saw a lecture given by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the founder-acharya of the Krishna Consciousness Movement. Impressed by the vast knowledge and saintliness of Srila Prabhupada, H.H. Hridayananda dasa Goswami became a member of the Hare Krishna movement in Berkeley, and, shortly after, on the 8th of February of 1970, he was initiated as a disciple of Srila Prabhupada.

Since the very beginning, H.H. Hridayananda dasa Goswami distinguished himself for his eloquence, devotion, and dedication to studying the writings of his spiritual master, through which he acquired a profound knowledge of Sanskrit. In 1972, he accepted the renounced order of life, sannyasa, to dedicate himself totally to his spiritual master's mission: to spread the Krishna Conscious movement all over the world. In the two subsequent years he traveled widely, giving lectures and conferences in colleges and universities in the United States.

In 1974, H.H. Hridayananda dasa Goswami was named member of the Administrative Body of ISKCON, where he was encumbered with development of Krishna consciousness in Latin America. In the following three years, he established twenty-five centers of the Society and attracted thousands of Latin Americans to Krishna consciousness. In his trips throughout Latin America, he met many political authorities and religious leaders, conversing with them in fluent Portuguese and Spanish. He is also the founder of the Portuguese and Spanish Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, which has already distributed over twenty-five million books all over Latin America.

<table align="left" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="145"> <tbody> <tr><td> </td></tr> </tbody></table> A little before departing from this world in November of 1977, His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada asked H.H. Hridayananda dasa Goswami, as well as ten other prominent disciples, to accept the role of spiritual masters and initiate disciples to give continuity to the disciplic succession starting with the Supreme Lord, Krishna. The biggest challenge in his career as spiritual leader, however, came when the leaders of ISKCON, recognizing his profound devocional erudition, entrusted him to complete de Srila Prabhupada's monumental translation and commentary of the Srimad Bhagavatam, the most important classic of Vedic literature. For thousands of years in India, great spiritual masters presented commentaries on the Bhagavatam to explain its urgent message to the people of their times. H.H. Hridayananda dasa Goswami is the first westerner is trusted with this laborious task, and his success in communicating the essence of India's spiritual heritage to modern readers has already been noticed by scholars and religious leaders in the whole world.

In 1996 H.H. Hridayananda dasa Goswami received his Ph.D. in Sanskrit and Indian Studies from the University of Harvard.

His present project is the translation and adaptation of the Indian epic, the Mahabharata. He is also currently finishing his first novel, a modern-day, exciting drama meant to captivate the general public while transmitting Krishna conscious philosophy and values.

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Beggar · November 24, 2007

New Vrndavana 1986 - The ISKCON GBC comes with one vote of censuring and suspending what was left of the "Eleven Zonal Acaryas". The result of that failure of will, and acquiessence to the truth you will see on the front page of "Acaryadeva's" homepage.

Shakti-Fan · November 24, 2007

(Los Angeles, USA, May 31, 2000)

Srila Narayana Maharaja

In our morning class we were discussing the eighth sloka of Srila Rupa Gosvami's Nectar of Instruction. In that regard we have explained, and we have also heard in the explanation of Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Maharaja: we should know who Caitanya Mahaprabhu is, and for what purpose, for what mission, He descended from the spiritual realm.

Mahaprabhu is not different from Radha-Krishna conjugal. Krishna wanted to fulfill the sum of His desires - especially to relish the highest moods of Radhika which were not even in His own heart. He wanted to understand how She loves Him, and in what mood She serves Him, that makes Him controlled by Her. Krishna has love for Radhika, and in separation and other times He becomes mad for Her. But she becomes totally mad because of her adhirudha mahabhava. This subject matter is very deep. Even Krishna does not have adhirudha mahabhava, and that is why He could not be so mad for Srimati Radhika. Even Lalita, Visakha, and the other asta-sakhis have very elevated moods toward Krishna. Still, He cannot have that. This is because He is the object of love and they are the containers, the abodes, of love.

Krishna wanted to relish all this. And, because He was so merciful, He wanted to show the process by which we can achieve that service which is like that of the gopis. He wanted to give everyone this raga marga - this process of love and affection that the Vrajavasis have in their hearts. However, He could not give it, nor could He relish all these things. Why? It is because He does not have that mood of the gopis. Therefore, in the form of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He went to the school of Lalita and Visakha, and He was trained there. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Sacinandana Gaurahari, is the same as Krishna, but not the same - He is something more. He is Krishna combined with Radhika's mood and beauty. Now He is doubled. His mercy is doubled and His taste has been doubled. Now He has the mood of Radhika. As Krishna, He only had that Krishna mood. He was previously only the object of love, but now He is both. He is the object of love, and at the same time He is the abode of love.

This is the first reason Krishna descended from there - to relish that love. Secondly, He came to preach the process of high-level love and affection. He was so merciful.

We should try to know all these truths. If you are a senior Vaisnava, you should try to hear these topics. Why should you remain in the same class? Bhakti is a transcendental flow; she cannot remain in any one place. Similarly, the devotion in our hearts for Radha and Krishna, and for Mahaprabhu, is like a stream. It should go on gradually increasing. It should not be stopped at any place.

You should know who your Prabhupada is. You should know. Then you can glorify him, otherwise you cannot. He has also descended. He is an associate of Mahaprabhu, and He has descended to give that same mood and mission of Mahaprabhu. He has not only come to preach, "You should do kirtana, and add that to whatever you are already doing." He also did not come only to establish yuga-dharma. That is the job of Maha Visnu, not of Krishna. It is not Krishna's function. Who is Maha-Visnu? Sri Advaita Acarya. He is the amsa of the amsa of the amsa of the amsa of the Kala of Krishna Himself. He is a part of the part of the part of the part of Krishna. Being so far away, He can preach with kirtana, but He cannot give Vraja-bhakti. Never. He is not qualified for this. Only Krishna can do this. When He came, therefore, He preached through sankirtana that highest love and affection, as well as the process to achieve it.

So Srila Svami Maharaja was not an ordinary person whom you can know and realize. You have to come to his level, and then you can understand who he is and why he came to this world. He is not an ordinary historical person.

If you don't know who he is, how can you glorify him? Sri Svarupa Damodara can glorify Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Sri Raya Ramananda can glorify Him, and Srila Rupa Gosvami can also glorify Him because their standard or level is the same as that of Krishna. They are always His eternal associates. So you must know who Prabhupada, your Gurudeva, was. He was not an ordinary devotee. He came to fulfill the desire of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He preached the same mission as told by Srila Rupa Gosvami. He is a follower of Rupa Gosvami, and he was very happy to say that, "I am Rupanuga". You should know what is Rupanuga. Even Srila Sanatana Gosvami, the Guru of Rupa Gosvami, felt very great happiness in thinking that, "I am a follower of Srila Rupa Gosvami. I should follow Rupa. He is so high."

So Srila Svami Maharaja came only to preach this mission. As I told before, however, he saw that the land was barren, not fertile. There were so many weeds and thorn trees here and there. Although he had to cut all these things, he actually came to give something else - the same thing that Rupa Gosvami came to give: "Sri Caitanya mano 'bhistam sthapitam yena bhutale. Because he understood the innermost desire of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he was able to establish His mission in this world." Therefore first know who he is; then you can glorify him. You should not think that he was only a preacher of harinama. You should not think that he only wrote so many books, and published and distributed them. This is not his glory. What is his glory? He is a Rupanuga Vaisnava - serving Radha-Krishna conjugal in the same way as Rupa Manjari.

Prabhupada has written everywhere that we should know our aim and object. Although we don't know it at present, we can know it by hearing. You can see this in the dialogue of Sri Raya Ramananda and Mahaprabhu, in the dialogue of Srila Rupa Gosvami and Mahaprabhu in Triveni and Prayag, in the dialogue of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Srila Sanatana Gosvami in Kasi, Varanasi, and you can see it in the dialogue between Sri Svarupa Damodara and Srivasa Pandit at the Ratha-yatra festival. These are very high topics. You should go deep and hear these topics from any realized person. Then you can know what is our aim and object.

We must follow Rupa Gosvami, whom Prabhupada followed. I think it will not be better to think we are "Prabhupadanuga". Don't discover any new thing. It will then be a new way and full of thorns. Following what he has given, we should go, closing our eyes, running, with no fear of falling.

We see that Srila Svami Maharaja was not happy in his last days. He had made so many sannyasis, as you know. If they had followed him totally they would never have fallen down. Hearing hari-katha from superiors, and following their instructions, a man cannot deviate. Why have so many disciples given up their sannyasa? Why have most of the brahmacaris who were doing arcana deviated? Why did the desire come to marry? Why? Are they happy? They think that they were with Prabhupada for a long time. They think that they served him and he has trained them in a special way. But what was that special training? That they should take sannyasa, and then give it up and go to hell? Did they receive special training how to fall down? I think this is not the case. We should try to know and realize all these things. If a man will serve Prabhupada, then he will be like him. If a person is serving him internally and externally, then he must be on the same level as him. After taking sannyasa Prabhupada never deviated. No worldly desire ever came in him. I think that this was not the training of Prabhupada. He was very worried for them, and he used to discuss all these things with me. I explained the sloka:

bhaktih paresanubhavo viraktir

anyatra caisa trika eka-kalah

prapadyamanasya yathasnatau syus

tustih pustih ksud-apayo 'nu-ghasam

["Devotion, direct experience of the Supreme Lord, and detachment from other things - these three occur simultaneously for one who has taken shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, in the same way that pleasure, nourishment and relief from hunger come simultaneously and increasingly, with each bite, for a person engaged in eating." SB.11.2.42]

Sri Sukadeva Gosvami is telling hari-katha to Pariksit Maharaja. He gives the example that you are very hungry and you are taking maha-prasadam - one handful after another. One handful, a second, a third, a forth, and a fifth. If you are really taking it, three things will come at the same time. Virakti, tusti, and pusti. Gradually your hunger will subside. Some tusti, satisfaction, will come according to how much you are taking, and pusti, nourishment, will also come at the same time. When you fully take, then full satisfaction will come, you will feel strength, and you will have no desire to take any more. Three things. Similarly, if you are following anyavilasita sunyam, real bhakti in the real process, if you are chanting and remembering and hearing hari-katha through the proper channel and proper process, at once you will realize Krishna in that proportion, and detachment from worldly things and sense gratification must manifest. It is bound to come, and you will be satisfied. Three things will come: performing bhakti, realizing some rasa, taste, and detachment from worldly things.

Shakti-Fan · November 24, 2007

You have been chanting and remembering for so many years - some of you for thirty years, but these three things are not coming. We are not realizing anything and we have no taste. Your hearts is not melting by chanting and remembering, tears are not coming, and you are not satisfied. You are always speaking about problems, problems, and problems, and higher and higher waves of problems. You are not happy and detachment from worldly desires is not coming. Why? There is some loophole in your process. Otherwise there is some loophole in your Guru with whom you are associating. It will be either of these two things. If your Guru is all right, then there is some loophole in your practice. We should realize this. Why is detachment is not coming? I want to make more money. I want to taste new, new wives, and new, new husbands. I am daily rejecting the old ones and taking new ones.

Why is this coming? Has Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Srila Rupa Gosvami, Srila Sanatana Gosvami, or any of our Gosvamis, done like this? Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada was a naistika brahmacari from the beginning. Is there any example anywhere in scriptures or in the history of Gaudiya Vaisnavas? You cannot say. Never. Srila Svami Maharaja has not instructed like this. Has he said that we should go to the atheists' university? He has shown the way how to enter the school of Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji and the university of Namacarya Srila Haridasa Thakura. We should believe that this is the first principle of bhakti.

sraddha-sabde-visvasa kahe sudrdha niscaya

krsne bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta haya

["Faith means unflinching trust in something sublime. When one is engaged in the duties of Krishna consciousness, he need not act in relationship to the material world with obligations to family traditions, humanity, or nationality. Fruitive activities are the engagements of one's reactions from past good or bad deeds. When one is awake in Krishna consciousness, he need no longer endeavor for good results in his activities. When one is situated in Krishna consciousness, all activities are on the absolute plane, for they are no longer subject to dualities like good and bad. The highest perfection of Krishna consciousness is renunciation of the material conception of life. This state is automatically achieved by progressive Krishna consciousness." Bg. 2.41 purport]

What is the meaning? You should know this.

Aranya Maharaja: In the very first stage of bhakti, sraddha, faith will come. But what is this faith? Srila Krishnadasa Kaviraja Gosvamipada has written this in Sri Caitanya Caritamrta. Faith means the unflinching conviction that simply by rendering devotional service to Krishna, by hearing, chanting, remembering, and serving the lotus feet of Krishna, I have no requirement to perform any other activities. I have no other obligation. Everything will be achieved simply by rendering service to Krishna. There is nothing else and no other responsibility for me.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: We know that Haridasa Thakura never attended any school. Was he admitted in any school since his birth? Never. Yet, Mahaprabhu made him Namacarya Haridasa Thakura. Why? He was qualified to be a Namacarya. If anyone has faith in the Name, thinking that by chanting the Name his life will be successful, and he is chanting and remembering with this faith, then he has no need to go to any school, any college, or anywhere else. Has Srila Svami Maharaja told anywhere that you should go to this bad university or that bad university? What will be the result? Those who are going will be like historians. They will not believe in God. They will not believe in Name and harikatha. They will not believe that Caitanya Mahaprabhu came from Goloka Vrindavana (Svetedvipa). They will think, "Krishna was not God." Gradually this belief will come. They will compare Caitanya Mahaprabhu with Buddha. They are bound to do so. They will not be able to have faith in Caitanya Caritamrta and in Srimad Bhagavatam.

Was Srila Sukadeva Gosvami admitted in any school? Yes, he was admitted. Where? In his father's school. His father instructed him, "You should hear Srimad Bhagavatam and you should chant and remember." By birth, Srila Sukadeva Gosvami was a high class of brahma-jnani. But then he attained the mercy of his father.

atmaramas ca munayo

nirgrantha apy urukrame

kurvanty ahaitukim bhaktim

ittham-bhuta-guno harih

["All different varieties of atmaramas [those who take pleasure in atma, or spirit self], especially those established on the path of self-realization, though freed from all kinds of material bondage, desire to render unalloyed devotional service unto the Personality of Godhead. This means that the Lord possesses transcendental qualities and therefore can attract everyone, including liberated souls." SB. 1.7.10]

What is the meaning?

Aranya Maharaja: In the Srimad Bhagavatam, the sages of Naimisaranya asked Sri Suta Gosvami, "Oh Suta Gosvamipada, please tell us. Sukadeva Gosvami was absorbed in Brahman, he was completely self-satisfied, atmarama, having no desire, and no attraction to taste anything. He was completely self-satisfied. So why is it that he underwent the study of the Srimad Bhagavatam? There are so many verses. It is such an arduous task to study the eighteen thousand verses of Srimad Bhagavatam." In reply to this, Suta Gosvami spoke this atmaramas ca verse. "Even those who are liberated, those who are completely self-satisfied, develop a very intense attraction to the Supreme Personality of Godhead because He is filled with most wonderful and astonishing transcendental qualities which are all beyond the nature of this material world."

Shakti-Fan · November 24, 2007

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Krishna is so beautiful. He is so sweet. He is so fragrant. Even creepers, trees, animals were charmed. You have read in Caitanya Caritamrta that Mahaprabhu was going to Vrindavana and chanting Krishna Krishna Krishna Krishna Krishna Krishna Krishna He, Rama Raghava Rama Raghava Rama Raghava raksa mam; and the animals were hearing on the way. Although they were very dangerous, somehow they touched the feet of Mahaprabhu and received His sweet powerful glance. At once they changed and began to chant, 'O Krishna, Krishna!' A mad elephant, taking his trunk, called, 'O Krishna, Krishna' in his language. The tigers forgot their malice and enmity with the deer and others. Serpents, snakes, bears and lions were all following Him at the same time.

You cannot believe all this now. But it can be, if you are not going to college and if you can hear all these things in the council of a high class of devotees. Then you yourself will also be able to do this. I am realizing this. So many 'tigers' and 'bears' are now following. Very intellectual giants have forgotten to quarrel and they are coming to us. We want those who have no regard, those who want to cheat others and play with their lives, to know their Gurudeva.

You should not stop at any point. My request is that you should try to open the blockage from your stream of bhakti. You should read Srimad Bhagavatam with very deep meanings. First try to hear. Then you will know what is your object, and then worldly desires will be gone. Only one desire will remain - how to serve Krishna.

I want this. I have come to remind you of all these things. Don't go in the stream of sense gratification. There is no harm if you are living worldly lives as householders. No harm. But from there, with your family, try to develop your Krishna consciousness. There were so many associates of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and Krishna also, who were family men.

The Gopis have showed us how, even in worldly, family life, we can develop our love and affection for Krishna. The gopis are the only examples of this in this world, as are the associates of Mahaprabhu, like Sri Svarupa Damodara, Sri Raya Ramananda and Sri Rupa and Sanatana. They are all liberated, eternal associates, but they were practicing as though they were sadhakas. Why? To teach us.

What they were doing? Sankhya-purvaka-nama-gana-natibhih kalavasanikrtau. How pathetic (in the mood of intense separation) was the tone of your Prabhupada. He was weeping, singing with tears and so many other symptoms. Have you heard any of his bhajanas? The mood of his heart is coming forth. You should hear and think about what he is telling - how he is following bhakti. He has come to teach all these things, and I am requesting you all to follow.

You must know your aim and object: that the mood of the gopis is the highest. Something is there in the transcendental, constitutional position of those who are coming to the line of Mahaprabhu. Otherwise you would not have come to this line. Never. There is something there, and that is why He attracted You. You know that neither wood nor any other material can be attracted to a magnet. The magnet will attract iron - if it is pure. If you are pure or impure, if you have somehow come in the line of Mahaprabhu, then in your constitutional form there must be something of gopi-bhava. Otherwise how could you have come? There are innumerable persons in this world - but you are coming. Therefore I think you have some qualities to know all these things. If you are hearing from any bona fide Vaisnava and you are always in his guidance, then you must develop your Krishna consciousness.

So I think that you should try. One day, very soon, you will become old. Death is very near. Your power and beauty and your curly hair will disappear. Your intelligence and money will not be able to save you from old age and death. In the days that are left, therefore, try to achieve that goal, and be happy in this life and forever.

We can come to Prahlada Maharaja. This goal, gopi-bhava, is the highest; but how will we be able to follow this process from the beginning? You should read, under the guidance of any pure devotee, about the life of Prahlada Maharaja from the beginning. What was he doing? Although he had been put in a school, when his father asked, "What has your gurudeva taught you? What is the best thing you realized in your school?", Prahlada never said that he had learned something from the guru in the school. Why? Because his Guru is Narada, and he was taught by him when he was in the womb of his mother. So he was attending school, he was hearing their classes, but all their talks were going in one ear and out the other. Nothing remained and he never followed them. He always followed Narada. From the beginning of his life he was chanting Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna are Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. He was going to school, but never accepting anything from his teachers. His father used to think, "He is demolishing all my work. He is against me. He is like an enemy." I want to ask you: can you tell what happened when Prahlada Maharaja was brought to his father? When his father asked him what he'd learned, what did he reply?

Govinda Bhakata Prabhu: Prahlada replied, "O father, tat sadhu manye asura varya dehinam." He very politely said, "Asura varya dehinam", "O best of the demons". He was congratulating him. "You are a demon, but you are the best of the demons." Hiranyakashipu was feeling very proud and happy that, "Yes, he knows my position as a great demon." Prahlada continued, "Those who have taken the vow to enjoy temporary material things in this world are always full of anxieties. They try in so many ways to enjoy, and they make a vow: "eat, drink, and be merry; for tomorrow we may die. So now we should enjoy to the maximum." Still, they only experience anxiety. Such enjoyment is likened to one who falls into a blind well. Once there was a man walking in the forest, and he saw a tiger, and this very ferocious tiger started to chase him. As the man was running he saw a well, a ditch covered over by grass. He saw two branches growing out from the walls of the well and, holding on to the branches, he lowered himself down to get away from the tiger, who by this time was just looming over him. However, he saw that below him there were some very venomous cobras that were raising their hoods and extending their tongues. His legs were dangling just over the snakes. At the same time there were two rats - one on each branch. One rat was black, another white, and they were nibbling away at the branches. His situation was now very, very precarious.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Like ours.

Govinda Bhakata Prabhu: So our situation also is like that. At any moment we may die. Death is imminent.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: What do the tigers represent? They are roaring like death at the top of the well. The many snakes are our many problems - daily problems, problems, and problems. Go on.

Govinda Bhakata Prabhu: Death who looming over his head and at the same time there were problems coming from all directions. In the meantime the rats were nibbling away. The two rats, one black and one white, signify nighttime and daytime. In due course the karma of that life will run out. The rats are nibbling away at his duration of life. At any time the branch will break.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: And there was also a branch over his head.

Govinda Bhakata Prabhu: Above him there was a branch with a beehive, and there were some very beautiful, golden translucent drops of honey beginning to fall. As they began to fall, the man stuck his tongue out to catch them. He then began to enjoy, and he forgot the reality of his situation.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: "O, most tasteful." He forgot all the dangers. We know that our fathers and forefathers have died. And we know that all who were put to death were never happy. Still, we want that old age should not come to us, and that we will not die. We are always making efforts to make ourselves more beautiful, more powerful, and more intelligent. We want to be expert in sense gratification. But moment by moment the two rats are nibbling. One second, two seconds, three seconds; then one hour, then twenty-four hours, then a day, then seven days, then one month; and after twelve months, then one year, and then one yuga. In this way our life is diminishing, and still we never think that we will die. We are satisfied like mad persons. And what is the honey? It is the very beautiful, very sweet love and affection of wives, husbands and children. If not of husbands and wives, then of new, new, new girlfriends and boyfriends.

Brajanatha Prabhu: Today we saw a dog in a car, next to the driver. People love their dogs so much. This is also like honey.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: They are making hospitals and charitable funds for that dog. They think, "After my death everything will be for that dog". But when they will die, they will become dogs. They don't realize this. You should realize it. You can die at any moment. Day by day your longevity is decreasing. Second by second. We ask, "What is your age?Oh, you want to know my age? My age is one hundred." But this means that one hundred years have already gone.

First of all you should know that Sri Sukadeva Gosvami is speaking and Pariksit Maharaja is hearing. You should think that you are in the council of Pariksit Maharaja, and all the teachings are coming through Sri Sukadeva Gosvami. From where did he learn them? From Krishnadvaipayana Vedavyasa. From where has he received these teachings? From Narada Gosvami. Narada Gosvami received them from Brahma. And from where has Brahma collected all this knowledge? From Krishna Himself. These are the teachings of Krishna Himself.

Beggar · November 24, 2007

"The Original "Why?" BY: NAVA JAUVANA DASA

Nov 23, NEW YORK (SUN) — This morning, reading the 7th Chapter of Bhagavad-gita, which usually gives me some transcendental pleasure, a question that had previously come up for me reappeared. Why did we, the marginal energy of the Lord, make the wrong choice to come to this material world? Why, if we are superior energy, did we not choose to remain under the protection of the internal energy, rather than be covered by the inferior energy? Now the obvious answer I know: as part and parcel of Parambrahman, we have a spark of free will. Free will is intrinsic to our nature as jivas. So we were given a choice, and we chose to enter the material world to compete with Krishna, to act as false enjoyers and lords. But that begs the question: how could we have made that choice when anyone in knowledge would never have made it, knowing that the consequences would be endless suffering here in this material world?

It does not seem possible to me that we, as jivas, were in knowledge when we made this basic choice. That would imply that we were covered by ignorance from our very beginning. The Sanskrit term, nitya bandha, implies the same: eternally conditioned. So then the question comes back to Krishna. Why, as the all merciful (karuna sindu) friend of the fallen (dina bandhu) would the Supreme Lord cover His own children, His parts and parcels, by ignorance, from what appears to be their very beginning, knowing they would then make the wrong choice?

So, this is my question. If I were deeply sincere, like Adwaita Acarya when he could not understand one verse in the Gita, I would fast until Krishna kindly revealed some answer or gave me an insight to clear up this doubt. Since I am an insincere rascal, such austerity and determination are not possible for me.

I know that this question is related to the controversy over where the jiva actually comes from. I don't buy the official "BBT" version that the jiva was with Krishna in the spiritual world in his original swarup and then fell down. No one falls down from Goloka. I also know that Srila Prabhupada spoke and wrote various different perspectives on this subject, but he stressed that it is not important to know how we got here, but absolutely necessary to know how to get out. Still, our philosophy should be able to clearly explain the ontology of the jiva. How and why did we make this terrible choice to enter samsara?

Ironically, it may only be after we are well on our way out that we'll understand the answer.

Check out my blog: Jauvana BlogSpot

Vigraha · November 26, 2007

Jayadvaita Maharaja... . I'm not really sure about his real current position, and I really doubt that he does either.

Spoke to him yesterday, this is his solid position

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Where Do the Fallen Souls Fall From?

Philosophy and spirituality

On learning that the material world is not our real home,

we naturally wonder, “How did we get here?”

by Jayadvaita Swami

from Back to Godhead, May-June 1993

When we hear that we live in this material world because we are “fallen souls,” it’s natural for us to ask, “Where have we fallen from?”

Srila Prabhupada says that as living souls we are all originally Krishna conscious. But what does that mean? Were we all originally with Krishna in the spiritual world? And if so, how could we ever have fallen? In Bhagavad-gita Lord Krishna says, “Once you attain to that spiritual world, you never fall.” So how then could we have fallen from there to begin with?

Some have tried to work around this problem by suggesting a different idea: We fell not from Krishna’s personal abode but from the brahmajyoti, the effulgent light that surrounds it. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam, yogis who seek the impersonal aspect of the Supreme may merge into that effulgent light—only to fall back later to the material world. Perhaps, then, we originally fell from the brahmajyoti.

Srila Prabhupada rejected this idea. Those in the brahmajyoti, he wrote, are not Krishna conscious, so they too are fallen. “So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.”

Well, then, since we’re called “eternally conditioned,” eternally illusioned, perhaps we’ve never really fallen at all—we’ve just always been down.

That idea, too, Srila Prabhupada rejected. “Eternally conditioned,” he explained, simply means that we’ve been down so long that when we fell is no longer possible to know.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, three generations before Srila Prabhupada in the line of spiritual teachers, put it this way: “Please avoid the misleading question ‘When were these jivas [living beings] created and enthralled?’ The Mayik time has no existence in spiritual history, because it has its commencement after the enthrallment of jivas, and you cannot, therefore, employ Mayik chronology in matters like these.”

“The Relationship is Eternal”

Here, then, is how Srila Prabhupada described our original state and the way we fall and leave it.

“Constitutionally,” he said in one letter, “every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikunthaloka [the personal spiritual abode of the Lord], has a chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy.”

“Usually,” he explained, “anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misuse of his independence.”

In another letter, Srila Prabhupada gave further insights. “We are always with Krishna. Where is Krishna not present?” But “when we forget this fact we are far, far away from Him. In the Isopanisad it is clearly stated, tad dure tad v antike: ‘He is very far away, but He is very near as well.’ (Isopanisad, Mantra Five). So this forgetfulness is our falldown. It can take place at any moment, and we can counteract this forgetfulness immediately by rising to the platform of Krishna consciousness.”

Our relationship with Krishna is never lost, Srila Prabhupada said. “Simply it is forgotten by the influence of maya. So it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the holy name of Krishna, and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with Krishna is eternal, as both Krishna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new.”

In still another letter, Srila Prabhupada restated this in yet another way: “We are all originally situated on the platform of Krishna consciousness in our eternal personal relationship of love of Krishna. But due to forgetfulness we become familiar with the material world, or maya.” But when we chant the Hare Krishna mantra sincerely and without offense, our original Krishna consciousness is at once revived. “So naturally everything about Krishna is originally known to us all, and as soon as we begin to associate with the devotees of the Lord and chant His holy name, this memory gradually becomes stronger as we remember our constitutional position of always serving Krishna in different ways.”

Our separation from Krishna, Srila Prabhupada taught, is like a dream. We dream, “I am this body,” and we dream of happiness in material relationships. This dreaming condition is our non-liberated state. But although this state of dreaming may seem to last for lifetimes, as soon as we become Krishna conscious we awaken, and the dream at once disappears. “After millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila [pastimes] of the Lord, when one comes to Krishna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, like dreaming.”

Don’t Figure It Out—Get Out

Ultimately, Srila Prabhupada would stress, puzzling over when we fell or where we fell from won’t solve our problem. “The conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krishna consciousness and immediately join Krishna.”

Again: “One should know he is in conditioned life and try to cure it… . Forgetfulness of Krishna is the disease, so let us keep ourselves always in Krishna consciousness and get out of the disease. That is healthy life.”

Still again: “Rather than taking account of how things happened that [we] came here, our best occupation is to get out of the scene by constantly chanting Hare Krishna and being engaged in the transcendental service of Lord Krishna.”

The advice is clear enough. But still the intellect hangs on, trying to figure out what can’t be figured out. So we delve into books to find out what was taught by other great acaryas (spiritual teachers) of the past. And what do we find? Different teachers—all Krishna conscious—seem to express different views. So then what? We take sides with one view or another, or simply become confused. Our mental circuits start to burn out.

Srila Prabhupada’s spiritual master, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, therefore gave this advice. We should avoid, he said, “vain empirical wranglings,” which he called “false and full of specious verbosity.” He reminds us, “What the unalloyed devotee of the Supreme Lord says is all true and is independent of any consideration of unwholesome pros and cons.”

When such pure devotees disagree, he says, there is “the element of mystery in their verbal controversies.” And “those whose judgment is made of mundane stuff” can’t “enter into the spirit of the all-loving controversies among pure devotees.” Lacking pure devotion, such people “are apt to impute to the devotees their own defects of partisanship and opposing views.” Therefore, he counsels, whenever such disputes arise about the pastimes of the Lord, we should remember what was taught by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His associates the Gosvamis, “that the Truth Absolute is ever characterized by spiritual variegatedness that transcends the variegatedness of mundane phenomena; but He is never featureless.”

Endless Arguments: Maya’s Trick

The Mahabharata tells us that we can’t know the truth simply by logic and arguments (tarko ‘pratistah). Acintyah khalu ye bhava na tams tarkena yojayet: “There’s no use arguing over that which is inconceivable.” After all, it’s inconceivable.

Srila B.R. Sridhara Maharaja, one of Srila Prabhupada’s godbrothers, respected for his deep philosophical realization, used to stress the same point, one of his followers told us. Repeatedly asked about where the living beings fell from, Srila Sridhara Maharaja grew weary of the question. “Why do you always ask about the most difficult thing to understand?” he once responded. “Why not try to understand the most easy thing?” That is: how to become Krishna conscious and go back to Godhead.

Pure devotees of Krishna avoid endless arguments. Such devotees know that such arguments are merely another distraction offered by maya. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam (6.4.31):

yac-chaktayo vadatam vadinam vai

vivada-samvada-bhuvo bhavanti

kurvanti caisam muhur atma-moham

tasmai namo ’nanta-gunaya bhumne

“Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto the all-pervading Supreme Personality of Godhead, who has unlimited transcendental qualities. Acting from within the cores of the hearts of all philosophers, who propagate various views, He makes them forget their own souls while sometimes agreeing and sometimes disagreeing among themselves. Thus He creates within this material world a situation in which they are unable to come to a conclusion. I offer my obeisances unto Him.”

Therefore, the student in transcendental science is best advised to simply accept what has been accepted by his own bona fide Krishna conscious acarya, or spiritual master. As Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura says, “It is a great offense to disrespect the acarya and to seek to establish a different doctrine in opposition to him.”

The Crow-and-Fruit Philosophy

To illustrate the uselessness of arguing about where the soul fell from, Srila Prabhupada once gave the example of the crow and the fruit of an Indian palm, the tal fruit. On the top of a tree was a nice tal fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down. Some learned scholars saw this and began discussing. The fruit fell because the crow shook the limb, one said. No, said another, as the crow was landing the fruit happened to fall. This frightened the crow, so the crow flew away. No, said a third, the fruit was ripe, and the weight of the crow’s landing broke the fruit from the branch… .

“What is the use of such discussion?” Srila Prabhupada said.

Whether we came from Krishna’s pastimes or from some other spiritual source, Srila Prabhupada said, “at the present you are in neither. So the best policy is to develop your Krishna consciousness and go there [to Krishna], never mind what is your origin.”

“At the present moment you are in maya’s clutches,” he wrote, “so our only hope is to become Krishna conscious and go back to home, back to Godhead.”

Don’t waste time with the crow-and-tal-fruit logic, Srila Prabhupada advised. “Now the fruit is there. Take it and enjoy.”

NOTE: The letters from Srila Prabhupada quoted in this article appear at greater length in Srila Prabhupada Siksamrta, Volume Two, pages 1157–1176. The quotations from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura come from his commentary on Sri Brahma-samhita. The quotation from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura comes from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu—His Life and Precepts.

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[*]About unusual doctrines

Guruvani · November 26, 2007

Jayadvaita's opinion isn't worth a plug nickel.

He is a bogus neophyte career ISKCON guru with his nose in the air.

Anyone that can stand in the face of the teachings of Mahaprabhu and the great Goswamis of Vrindavan and deny their actual teachings doesn't deserve the time of day from anyone that actually wants a non-political, authentic explanation of Gaudiya siddhanta.

Not a single disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur or any of their disciples agree with the fall-from-goloka fairtytale.

That fairytale was invented by some ISKCON dorks who take themselves way too seriously.

It is NOT a genuine Gaudiya Vaishnava conclusion.

It is a fairytale for the ISKCON sleepyheads.

Vigraha · November 26, 2007

Yes, Srila Prabhupada says that only those who not 'dreaming' of the material world are in Goloka in their original bodily constitutional position They are are not dreaming in/of the material world, this means both you and I are caught up in a dream we think is real but in comparision to the eternal 'presents' in Goloka, it is only real for a short time, then fades away to the piont that it never was, hence the meaning of maya, that which is not. THIS IS WHAT THE WORD DREAM MEANS IN THIS CONTEXT

The dream you and I are presently having, that includes our material body and mind, is an illusion, hence dream means illusion in the material world, somthing that fades away to the point that it will seem that it never really existed. Real existence is permanant and never fades away. Therefore the material 'dream' existence is real, but only temporarally real. Eventually your material body and mine will be as if it never was, as if it never even existed in the first place.

Srila Prabhupada - "Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. That is the secret understanding in all Vedic literature" Text 1b:Canto 4 Purport Srimad Bhagavatam

Srila Prabhupada - "One is actually dreaming due to incomplete knowledge, just as one may dream that one has wakened from a dream". Canto 11 Text 30 Purport

Thanks Ashvatama for your imput.

Thats why I accept the undertsanding of Srila Prabhupadas books from the great visionary Sarva-gattah

Beggar · November 26, 2007

Thats why I accept the undertsanding of Srila Prabhupadas books from the great visionary Sarva-gattah

namah om visnu-padaya krsna-presthaya bhutale

srimate Sarva-gattah Sleeper-vadi iti namine

namaste jayadwaita-deve apasiddhanta-vani-pracarine

suddha-bhakti-pascatya-desa-tarine

Beggar · November 26, 2007

Our Affectionate Guardians

Chapter One (excerpt):

A Transcendental Friendship

Many years later, after establishing Gaudiya Vaisnava temples around the world, Srila Prabhupada, upon returning to India, would sometimes stay at the matha of Srila Sridhara Maharaja in Sri Navadvipa Dhama. Srila Sridhara Maharaja also sometimes visited Srila Prabhupada at his Candrodaya Mandira in Mayapur. During one such occasion, recorded in March 1973, Srila Prabhupada happily shared some of his fond remembrances with Srila Sridhara Maharaja and his own disciples.

We are very fortunate to hear His Divine Grace Om Visnupada Paramahamsa Parivrajakacarya Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja. By age and by experience, in both ways, he is senior to me. I was fortunate to have his association since a very long time, perhaps in 1930.

Maharaja, I think you remember the incident when you went to Allahabad? On that auspicious occasion, we were connected. There is a long story, it will take time, but I had the opportunity of associating with Sridhara Maharaja for several years. Krsna and Prabhupada [srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura] liked him to prepare me. Sridhara Maharaja lived in my house for many years, so naturally we had very intimate talks and he was my good advisor. I took his advices and instructions very seriously, because from the very beginning I knew he was a pure Vaisnava, a pure devotee, and I wanted to associate with him, and I tried to help him also. Our relationship is very intimate.

[1]

Herein, we find the history of a transcendental relationship between these two pure devotees of the Lord. They intimately associated and discussed Srimad-Bhagavatamfor more than five years, often for five to seven hours a day. While remembering their intimate talks, specifically in regard to Bhagavad-gita, Srila Sridhara Maharaja recalled the depth of their conversations:

Once while discussing the verse

dadami buddhi yogaµ tam yena mam upayanti te

[bg. 10.10, "I give them the understanding by which they can come to Me."], I submitted to him that here,

upayanti

is indicative of

parakiya-rasa

[paramour relationship]. On this point he agreed with me, saying, "Yes, at this point there cannot be anything but the

parakiya-rasa

of Vraja. The conclusion of

Bhagavad-gita

must come to this."

Please Look After Them

Their many confidential talks reveal the depth of their relationship. In March 1982, Srila Sridhara Maharaja said:

When he [srila Prabhupada] began his translation of the

Bhagavad-gita,

it was in consultation with me in a very deep way. Later, he requested me many a time, "Please look after them; I am taking them this side [to Krsna consciousness]. You have a responsibility to look after them."

Srila Prabhupada would often consult with Srila Sridhara Maharaja regarding the spiritual significance of his failing business and family relationships. Srila Sridhara Maharaja confirmed Srila Prabhupada's suspicion that Krsna's special mercy was being shown to him by taking away all his material possessions as per the Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.88.8 verse, yasyaham anugrhnami.

An example of Prabhupada's helping with Sridhara Maharaja's preaching work is seen in his financing Prapanna-jivanamrta: Life-Nectar of the Surrendered Souls. (Lilamrta, Vol. 1, p. 103) This book, the most important work of his life, shows Sridhara Maharaja's exceptional brilliance in extracting the essence of the scriptures. Prapanna-jivanamrta was also greatly favored by Niskincana Krsnadasa Babaji Maharaja and was the only book he carried with him.

Vigraha · November 26, 2007

Shiva says - 'That is not quite right. A metaphor doesn’t imply that something is not real, it implies that something, like an idea or word or conception, is representing or designating another. If the conception of Maha Vishnu dreaming is not a metaphor then it is literal. In fact it cannot be literal because Maha Vishnu is a swamsa or plenary expansion of Krsna i.e. Maha Vishnu is Krsna'.

It is a fact that Maha-Vishnu is laying down dreaming and His DREAM IS THE MATERIAL CREATION OR MAHAT-TATTVA

“This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes:

Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga

Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah

This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.”Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

This description of the material dreaming characteristic of our marginal (nitya-baddha identity) has been a controversial subject for so long however, Shiva must understand that the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and the dreams of the marginal living entity, that takes residence within Maha-Vishnu’s material dreaming creation, are certainly not on the same 'mental' state' of illusionary dreams that we all have in our present material biological bodies.

No, it is not like that interpretation of the word dream.

Maha-Vishnu is sleeping and dreaming and our bodily vessels and their surroundings are all part and parcel of His mahat-tattva dream

"The modes of nature divide the soul's consciousness into normal wakefulness, dreaming and dreamless sleep. All such varieties of perception, however, are actually Maya and exist only like a dream". Text 34 Purport Canto 11

Srila Prabhuapada calls non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams and says we are ‘thinking’ or ‘dreaming’ that we are separated from Krishna but actually there is simply a cloud covering our vision of seeing Krishna and who we really are.

What does this mean

The secondary nitya-baddha 'dreaming' conscious state of the jiva-tatastha, is an authentic and real condition that ALL living entities can activate if they choose to use their free will and ignore Krishna and their authentic 'svarupa' body they serve Krishna as. The permanent bodily Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha feature of the marginal living entity is the bona fide permanent spiritual identity that ALL marginal living entities are endowed with.

Srila Prabhupada - "Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there”.

Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu Our authentic constitutional eternal self is nitya-siddha in Goloka

Srila Prabhupada also uses the analogy of the cloud covering the sun, its not that the sun is not there, but rather is that we cannot see the sun similarly, the nitya-baddha consciousness is like the cloud and the only when that cloud (nitya-baddha consciousness) dissipates, can we see the sun or our true perpetual Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha bodily identity.

The problem with the dream analogy is many foolishly relate this dream state with the biological body of nine gates. This is due to not understanding what the 'dream' means in this context in relation to maha-Vishnu. The DREAMING CONCEPT simply means we have ALL come down from Goloka and our consciousness has become covered like a cloud covers the sun, or like dust covers the mirror or like smoke covers the fire - dreaming simply means being covered to the point you cannot see who you really are, just like in the dark, one cannot see themselves and those around them due to the absents of light, therefore, presently a blanket of 'darkness' covers the marginal living entity in the material world, that 'blanket of darness' is called the nitya-baddha consciousness. The uncovered state is ones real eternal DEVOTIONALLY ACTIVE BODILY identity called the nitya-siddha genuin self that perpetually resides in Krishna's eternal pastimes in Goloka.

The marginal living entity therefore can choose to use their 'marginal' freewill and venture as the non-Krishna Conscious covered nitya-baddha characteristic (the covered state) of their marginal identity to the mahat-tattva 'dreaming' creation of Maha-Vishnu. The nitya-baddha consciousness therefore is an existent living part and parcel of ones own marginal potency or individual identity that is a secondary feature of the individual living entity that’s restricted view simply manifests due to ones REAL authentic nitya-siddha bodily identity being covered like the cloud blocks out the sun or like ones dreams at night makes one forget their present body.

In this way the mahat-tattva DREAM is real, however it is also temporary due to its fading scenery of past, prsent and future and that is why it is called illusion, that which is not - Maya.

Each living entity has their ceaseless nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious bodily identity in Goloka or Vaikuntha and also has the ability, due to the freedom to choose, to arouse their non-Krishna conscious desire, thoughts and imaginings that ARE like a dark cloud that covers ones perpetual ‘svarupa’ identity. This ‘lower self or secondary consciousness’ blocks out ones awareness, service and vision of real permanent self and is known as ones nitya-baddha COVERED consciousness, a state of restricted perception that all marginal living entities can trigger (be covered by) if they no longer want to stay with Krishna in Goloka..

In this way this attribute within the mahat-tattva or material creation and the impersonal Brahmajyoti, ones jiva-soul identity is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair IN OUR dimension of awareness within the maha-tattva, AND can also move on to a dreamless dormant state within the impersonal trait of the Brahmajyoti that can only also exist outside the personal active realm of Goloka and Vaikuntha.

The Impersonal feature of Brahman or the Brahmajyoti cannot exist as independent effulgence because factually that effulgence IS the marginal living entities secondary nitya-baddha consciousness in an inactive dormant dreamless state.

Srila Prabhupada says that only those who DO NOT 'DREAM' of selfish independance in the material world with their mistaken desires, thoughts, aspirations and imaginations of grandur, are in always Goloka in their original bodily constitutional position and Never FALL DOWN OR COME DOWN to the material creation. They have chosen to NEVER dreamin of the material world. This means prsently we are caught up in a dream we think is real but in comparison to the eternal 'presents' in Goloka, it is only real for a short time, then fades away to the point that it never was, hence the meaning of Maya, that which is not.

THIS IS WHAT THE WORD DREAM MEANS IN THIS ABSOLUE CONTEXT. The dream we are presently having in the material creation or mahat-tattva, that IS our material body and mind and its surroundings, is an illusion (that is real but temporary) created by Maha-Vishnu; hence dream means illusion in the material world, something that fades away to the point that it will seem that it never really existed. Real existence is permanent and never fades away. Therefore the material 'dream' existence is real, but only temporarily real. Eventually your material body and mine will be as if it never was, as if it never even existed in the first place.

Srila Prabhupada - "Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. That is the secret understanding in all Vedic literature" Text 1b:Canto 4 Purport Srimad Bhagavatam

Srila Prabhupada - "One is actually dreaming due to incomplete knowledge, just as one may dream that one has wakened from a dream". Canto 11 Text 30 Purport

Srila Prabhupada - "As an object of enjoyment or a permanent residence for the conditioned souls, the material universe is certainly illusion, nothing more than a dream. One may give the analogy that the vision of abundant water in a desert is no more than a dream, although real water exists elsewhere. Similarly, the vision of home, happiness and reality within matter is certainly no better than a foolish dream in which repeated miseries appear.

In another sense, however, the universe is real. In his commentary on Vedanta-sūtra, Śrīla Madhvācārya has confirmed this by quoting the following statement from the Vedic śruti-mantras: satyam hy evedam viśvam asrjata. "This universe, created by the Lord, is real." The perfect authority of the Vedas thus certifies this universe to be real; nevertheless, because our knowledge is stolen by illusion (as indicated here by the words asta-dhisanam), we cannot properly understand this universe or the Supreme Lord who has created it. As the expansion of Lord Krishna, the universe is real and is meant for being engaged in His service. One who accepts the kingdom of God as home, the Lord Himself as the object of love, and the material universe as paraphernalia for being engaged in the Lord's service dwells within eternal reality wherever he may go within the material and spiritual worlds".Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.14.22 Purport

Beggar · November 26, 2007

We will continue to understand Srila Prabhupada's teachings, including such issues as the origin of the soul, with the help of such exalted souls as Srila B.R. Sridhar Maharaja. Such visionaries as he, Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur (the entire siksa guru parampara) are brilliant like many suns and moons. Persons such as Sarva gattah AKA Pradymna Swami are like fireflies in the night. They try to illuminate the scene with their tiny and flickering mental power but do to their stubborn false sense of importance are themselves part of the fleeting phantasmagoria.

Vigraha · November 26, 2007

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Avinash

So, you are saying that we are in Golok. We feel we are on Earth because we dream of being on Earth. What about those living in Vaikunth? Are they really in Vaikunth or are they in Golok and dreaming of being in Vaikunth?

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Avinash, the ISKCON movement do not except the impersonal maya-vardi nonsense delusions of Guruvani, Begger and buddies. Here is the offical ISKCON BBT understanding on this subject and that we ALL came from Goloka http://www.jswami.info/jiva

Since the early 1970s, Jayadvaita Swami has served as an editor or assistant editor with the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, working on nearly all the books which his guru, Srila Prabhupada, published throughout his lifetime<SUP>[1]</SUP>.

"Pure love for Krishna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens”. Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 22.107

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:SjkzdBzbmDgJ:iskcon.krishna.org/Letters/2000/08/L00027.html+PRABHUPADA+AVOID+SRIDHAR+SWAMI&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=14&gl=au

My Godbrothers have no life for preaching work. All are satisfied with a place for residence in the name of a temple, they engage disciples to get foodstuff by transcendental devices and eat and sleep. They have no idea or brain how to broacast the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (01-14-07)

Tirupati 28 April, 1974

Washington D.C.

My dear Rupanuga Maharaja,

Please accept my blessings.

I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter of April 17, from Washington D.C. and I have very carefully noted the contents.

You are right about Sridhara Maharaja's genuineness. But in my opinion he is the best of the lot. He is my old friend, at least he executes the regulative principles of devotional service. I do not wish to discuss about activities of my Godbrothers but it is a fact they have no life for preaching work. All are satisfied with a place for residence in the name of a temple, they engage disciples to get foodstuff by transcendental devices and eat and sleep.

They have no idea or brain how to broacast the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. My Guru Maharaja used to lament many times for this reason and he thought if one man at least had understood the principle of preaching then his mission would achieve success.

In the latter days of my Guru Maharaja he was very disgusted. Actually, he left this world earlier, otherwise he would have continued to live for more years.

Still he requested his disciples to form a strong Governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He never recommended anyone to be acarya of the Gaudiya Math. But Sridhara Maharaja is responsible for disobeying this order of Guru Maharaja, and he and others who are already dead unnecessarily thought that there must be one acarya.

If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya.

His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected.

So Sridhara Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one acarya and later it proved a failure. The result is now everyone is claiming to be acarya even though they may be kanistha adhikari with no ability to preach.

In some of the camps the acarya is being changed three times a year. Therefore we may not commit the same mistake in our ISKCON camp.

Actually amongst my Godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya. So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them.

This attempt was made previously by them, especially Madhava Maharaja and Tirtha Maharaja and Bon Maharaja but somehow or other I saved the situation. This is going on. We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them.

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

Beggar · November 26, 2007

Jayadwaita Maharaja secretly spent almost a week at the first temple in the West associated with Srila Sridhar Maharaja during the spring of 1985. I was living there in San Jose, California at the time and had several conversations with Maharaja in Bhakti Sudhir Goswami's office. At that time he was seriously considering leaving ISKCON and coming over to the Srila Sridhar Maharaja side. At that time he fully accepted the angle of vision given by Srila Sridhar Maharaja on the origin of the jiva soul issue and several of the conversations that I heard him have with Sudhir Goswami Maharaja were on this topic. In the end, he just couldn't follow his inner heart for whatever reason, attachment or a false sense of loyalty to Srila Prabhupada. {False in the sense that loyalty to GBC ISKCON is loyalty to Prabhupada}. It kind of reminds me of Virabahu Prabhu. During the early and mid-eighties Virabahu Prabhu read all of Srila Sridhar Maharaja's books. When I used to go up to the Spanish BBT to visit him, he would passionately rail against the GBC and ISKCON gurus. Of course a few years later he became one! And for years he was just like one of the original Zonal Acaryas in actions and mentality. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely for the conditioned soul. Lately by Lord Krsna's grace he has mellowed out quite a bit. There is hope after all. His wife is a devout follower of Narayana Maharaja and he is very tolerant of her position despite fierce opposition by the likes of Rabindra Swarupa and Bhadri Narayana.

Another interesting history is how Hridayananda Maharaja spent several days with Narayana Maharaja up in Badger, CA in 1999 and then campaigned amongst the GBC to reconcile with him and let him give programs at ISKCON temples.

Shakti-Fan · November 26, 2007

namah om visnu-padaya krsna-presthaya bhutale
srimate Sarva-gattah Sleeper-vadi iti namine

namaste jayadwaita-deve apasiddhanta-vani-pracarine

suddha-bhakti-pascatya-desa-tarine

Brilliant my friend! The persons that you call "Sleeper Vadis" along with the IRM are most certainly the lunatic fringe of the Hare Krishna Movement.

Guruvani · November 26, 2007

Brilliant my friend! The persons that you call "Sleeper Vadis" along with the IRM are most certainly the lunatic fringe of the Hare Krishna Movement.

True, but the fringe of the Hare Krishna movement aren't the only lunatics in the Hare Krishna movement.

The CORE of GBC and gurus are a bunch of lunatics as far as I am concerned.

So, I guess a lunatic fringe is about all you can have around a lunatic base.

Beggar · November 26, 2007

So, I guess a lunatic fringe is about all you can have around a lunatic base.

Can you send me your recipe for lunatic base? I'm catering an ISKCON wedding.

Vigraha · November 26, 2007

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.29.71
TRANSLATION

When the living entity is in deep sleep, when he faints, when there is some great shock on account of severe loss, at the time of death, or when the body temperature is very high, the movement of the life air is arrested. At that time the living entity loses knowledge of identifying the body with the self.

PURPORT

Foolish people deny the existence of the soul, but it is a fact that when we sleep we forget the identity of the material body and when we awake we forget the identity of the subtle body. In other words, while sleeping we forget the activities of the gross body, and when active in the gross body we forget the activities of sleeping.

Actually both states — sleeping and waking — are creations of the illusory energy. The living entity actually has no connection with either the activities of sleep or the activities of the so-called wakened state.

I cannot agree with Sridar Maharaj or Narayana Maharaj's understanding of the origin of the jiva soul. There understanding IS NOT the teachings of Srila Prabhupada

When one is in Goloka, does one really care what material body they had in the material world After all, we have had billions of them. Isn't the eternal 'present' in Goloka and Vaikuntha beyond the concept of past, present and future in the material world ot mahat-tattva? Which means our perpetual Krishna Consciousness will have no interest in what we were in the past in the material world, nor the future in the material world because we will be too absorbed in our devotional service in the eternal 'presents in Goloka' serving Krishna.

Such loving service, always thinking of pleasing the object of our love with unconditional service actually does not allow one the memory of past, present and future of the material 'dream''world and its extended bye product of decay, forgettfulness, changing bodies, to exist.

Why would one want to remember 'that which is not' (Maya)? In fact it is not possible in Goloka because the only reality is Krishna and His dear pure devotees and maya cannot exist there. However if one looks up into the Spiritual Sky in Krishna Lila, they may see a insignificant dark cloud although, like everything else if Goloka, that cloud (mahat-tattva) will only be another aspect of Krishna's beauty in the color of a monsoon cloud

Srila Prabhupada - The living entity's constitutional position is to be a servitor; he has to serve either the illusory Maya or the Supreme Lord. If he serves the Supreme Lord he is in his normal condition, but if he prefers to serve the illusory, external energy, then certainly he will be in bondage.

Srila Prabhupada - In illusion the living entity is serving in this material world. He is bound by his lust and desires, yet he thinks of himself as the master of the world. This is called illusion.

Srila Prabhupada - When a person is liberated, his illusion is over, and he voluntarily surrenders unto the Supreme to act according to His desires.

Srila Prabhupada - The last illusion, the last snare of Maya to trap the living entity, is the proposition that he is God. The living entity thinks that he is no longer a conditioned soul, but God. He is so unintelligent that he does not think that if he were God, then how could he be in doubt? That he does not consider. So that is the last snare of illusion.

Srila Prabhupada - Actually to become free from the illusory energy is to understand Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and agree to act according to His order.

Srila Prabhupada - Real knowledge is the understanding that every living being is eternally a servitor of the Lord, but instead of thinking oneself in that position, the living entity thinks that he is not a servant, that he is the master of this material world, for he wants to lord it over the material nature. That is his illusion. This illusion can be overcome by the mercy of the Lord or by the mercy of a pure devotee. When that illusion is over, one agrees to act in Krishna consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada - A conditioned soul, illusioned by the external energy of matter, does not know that the Supreme Lord is the master who is full of knowledge and who is the proprietor of everything.

Srila Prabhupada - One who does not know Him (Krishna) is under the spell of illusion; he does not become a devotee, but a servitor of Maya. Arjuna, however, after hearing Bhagavad-gita from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, became free from all illusion. - All quotes from http://vedabase.net/bg/18/73/en1 B.G. 18.73

Srila Prabhupada - As living spiritual souls, we are all originally Krishna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness is now polluted by the material atmosphere, called Maya, or illusion.

And what is this illusion?

The illusion is that we are all trying to be lords of material nature, while actually we are under the grip of her stringent laws. When a servant artificially tries to imitate the all-powerful master, he is said to be in illusion. Translation to the Hare Krishna mantra 1966

When the mayavadi's say the world is an illusion, to them nothing is real because they have no concept that Krishna is the Supreme Creator and enjoys His eternal pastimes in the eternal 'presents’ or Goloka, the permanent imperishable Krishna Conscious Spiritual Sky.

The devotees on the other hand see that if it is not permanent, then it is illusion, only because it does not include Krishna. In this way, that which is illusion means it is temporary, decaying, fading, to the point that eventually it will appear as if it never was – that which is not - Maya.

Srila Prabhupada clearly explains here how the non-Krishna conscious dreams (nitya-baddha consciousness) that are sub-consciously separate from ones marginal nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body, are then transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu. This secondary (conditioned) extension of the marginal living entities is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted self centred thoughts and awareness manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires

Srila Prabhupada - 'There is possibility (falling from Vaikuntha), if you do not stick to the spiritual principle, even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the Vaikuntha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down'. Bhag.-Gita class, Honolulu: July 4, 1974)

Srila Prabhupada - “We wanted to give up Krishna.”

Srila Prabhupada therefore clearly telling us that we have never been always conditioned because factually our svarupa body is always in Goloka, only our 'dreaming' consciousness comes to the mahat-tattva from Vaikuntha, although as complicated as it may be to understand, our nitya-baddha conscious condition is only temporarily exists.

In this way, just as the sun dissipates the darkness, when one is fully established as their nitya-siddha authentic eternal body, the darkness or the nitya-baddha counterfeit consciousness will simply not exist. This is because our non-Krishna conscious desires or the nitya-baddha feature of ones marginal identity can never exist in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada's- "Foolish people deny the existence of the soul, but it is a fact that when we sleep we forget the identity of the material body and when we awake we forget the identity of the subtle body. In other words, while sleeping we forget the activities of the gross body, and when active in the gross body we forget the activities of sleeping". Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.29.71

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually both states — sleeping and waking — are creations of the illusory energy. The living entity actually has no connection with either the activities of sleep or the activities of the so-called wakened state".Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.29.71

Srila Prabhupada -“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

Guruvani · November 26, 2007

Can you send me your recipe for lunatic base? I'm catering an ISKCON wedding.

Just make a pot of Sleepervadi stew sprinkled with nuts.

Is there class discrimination in Goloka?

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