Paramatma-Vadis are Not Devotees?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Srila Prabhupada seems to make a distinction between "Paramatma-Vadis" and "devotees" in the introduction to Srimad Bhagavad-Gita.

 

 

http://vedabase.net/bg/introduction/en

 

 

As explained before, there are different kinds of transcendentalists — the brahma-vādī, paramātma-vādī and the devotee — and, as mentioned, in the brahmajyoti (spiritual sky) there are innumerable spiritual planets.

 

Also, it's interesting to note that Srila Prabhupada seems to be equating the "brahmajyoti" with "spiritual sky".

[theist]

 

Srila Prabhupada seems to make a distinction between "Paramatma-Vadis" and "devotees" in the introduction to Srimad Bhagavad-Gita.

 

 

http://vedabase.net/bg/introduction/en

 

 

 

Also, it's interesting to note that Srila Prabhupada seems to be equating the "brahmajyoti" with "spiritual sky".

 

He is referring to those that stop at a certain level without realizing the whole. I would like to learn more about what is the realization of a Paramatma-vadi. It is rather vague in my mind. Surely realizing the Supreme Person residing in one's heart is devotional. But perhaps a paramatma-vadi only realizes a certain aspect of His presence. Interesting question.

 

Of course brahmajyoti is the spiritual sky. If you think about it what else could it be? We are just not used to the term being used in this way very often so it catches us off guard.

[mahak]

Despite the misinformation being put out about santa rasa here on these forums. there is no santa rasa in brahmana realization. Santa rasa means to appreciate the divinity of the Supreme Person, but there is no self to appreciate in brahman.

 

Santa rasa takes place in paramatma realization. Fron here, mysticism takes place, appreciation of God in his all pervading aspect takes place. But santa rasa is not really a desirable position for a devotee. Devotee means active servant, so the beginning of bhakti, bhagavan realization, is beyond the threshhold of santa rasa.

 

One who has realized the superself within is still in a self-serving mode, enjoying the buzz of self realization. A bhagavan-vadi, or bhakti yogi, is never self-serving, his whole business is service of another, Sri Bhagavan.

 

However, when the bhakti yogi meditates on supersoul, he notes the presence of Lord Sesa Balarama, Lord Nityananda, and Guru. This Paramatma realization is actually Bhagavan realization, because service is reciprocally rendered, and this bhakti yoga is also known as guru-tattwa.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[theist]

Nice explanation Mahak. Thank you.

 

I wonder what the destination of the Paramatma-vadi would be should he leave his body in that consciousness?

 

pranams

[Guruvani]

 

Despite the misinformation being put out about santa rasa here on these forums. there is no santa rasa in brahmana realization. Santa rasa means to appreciate the divinity of the Supreme Person, but there is no self to appreciate in brahman.

 

Santa rasa takes place in paramatma realization. Fron here, mysticism takes place, appreciation of God in his all pervading aspect takes place. But santa rasa is not really a desirable position for a devotee. Devotee means active servant, so the beginning of bhakti, bhagavan realization, is beyond the threshhold of santa rasa.

 

One who has realized the superself within is still in a self-serving mode, enjoying the buzz of self realization. A bhagavan-vadi, or bhakti yogi, is never self-serving, his whole business is service of another, Sri Bhagavan.

 

However, when the bhakti yogi meditates on supersoul, he notes the presence of Lord Sesa Balarama, Lord Nityananda, and Guru. This Paramatma realization is actually Bhagavan realization, because service is reciprocally rendered, and this bhakti yoga is also known as guru-tattwa.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

 

Śānta-rati is described in the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu (2.5.16-18) as follows:

 

 

mānase nirvikalpatvaḿ

śama ity abhidhīyate

 

"When one is completely free from all doubts and material attachments, he attains the neutral position, called śānta."

 

 

vihāya viṣayonmukhyaḿ nijānanda-sthitir yataḥ

ātmanaḥ kathyate so 'tra svabhāvaḥ śama ity asau

prāyaḥ śama-pradhānānāḿ mamatā-gandha-varjitā

paramātmatayā kṛṣṇe jātā śānta-ratir matā

 

The śānta-rati realization of Kṛṣṇa is in the neutral stage between the conception of impersonalism and personalism. This means that one is not very strongly attached to the personal feature of the Lord. An appreciation of the greatness of the Lord is called śānta-rati. This is attachment not to the personal feature but to the impersonal feature. Generally, one in this stage is attached to the Paramātmā feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

 

īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāḿ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati

bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā

 

"The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine made of the material energy." (Bg. 18.61) On the strength of this statement from the Bhagavad-gītā, we can understand that in śānta-rasa a devotee sees the Lord's representation everywhere.

 

[melvin]

Paramatma-vadis are not devotees? A devotee is someone who is devoted to something or someone. Paramatma-vadis only think of the Superself within them and devote themselves to think that they are one with God. One becomes a devotee if he/she thinks simultaneously yet differently with God. It`s like God taking control over you and yet you are free to do what you want.

[theist]

 

The śānta-rati realization of Kṛṣṇa is in the neutral stage between the conception of impersonalism and personalism. This means that one is not very strongly attached to the personal feature of the Lord. An appreciation of the greatness of the Lord is called śānta-rati. This is attachment not to the personal feature but to the impersonal feature. Generally, one in this stage is attached to the Paramātmā feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

The bold text and the red text give a different picture from one another.

 

The first sentence describes a neutral position between impersonalism and personalism.

 

Very subtle and a bit confusing for me.

 

[Guruvani]

 

The bold text and the red text give a different picture from one another.

 

The first sentence describes a neutral position between impersonalism and personalism.

 

Very subtle and a bit confusing for me.

 

 

 

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 7.4 purport,

 

The Paramātmā manifestation is also a temporary all-pervasive aspect of the Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. The Paramātmā manifestation is not eternal in the spiritual world.

[Guruvani]

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.10.9 purport,

 

Even accepting that there is no difference between the Supersoul and the individual soul, the individual soul is dependent on the Supersoul for being liberated from the illusion of material energy. The individual is under the clutches of illusory energy, and therefore although qualitatively one with the Supersoul, he is under the illusion of identifying himself with matter.

[Guruvani]

 

 

Very subtle and a bit confusing for me.

 

 

Bhaktivedanta confusing?

Welcome to the club.

I guess that is what happens when you try preach to the lowest class of people and the highest class at that same time?

Confusion!

Both groups get confused.

[melvin]

Swami Jesus( Prabhupad) gave us an example of MISTAKING THE ROPE FOR A SNAKE whenever we are confused of what`s impersonalism and devotion. Service without devotion is like rendering work which you are expecting to be paid. That`s impersonalism. But if you work and don`t expect anything because you have devoted this to pleasing someone then that`s not impersonalism. It`s devotional service(Bhakti). It could be your girlfriend or wife you want to please yet it`s different when you think your girlfriend or wife is Radha or Yasoda. One is material and the other is spiritual.

[Beggar]

 

Despite the misinformation being put out about santa rasa here on these forums. there is no santa rasa in brahmana realization. Santa rasa means to appreciate the divinity of the Supreme Person, but there is no self to appreciate in brahman.

 

Your idea is correct but you are technically incorrect because if you go back and look at the quotes that Guruvani found from Prabhupada's books, there is more than one definition of santa rasa. Another term that has more than one defininition is "uttama adhikari". It's obvious that santa rasa in brahman realization is the not the same as santa rasa in relationship with Narayana in Vaikuntha. Then again, santa rasa in Vraja with Krsna is also different.

[Beggar]

 

Swami Jesus( Prabhupad) ...It could be your girlfriend or wife you want to please yet it`s different when you think your girlfriend or wife is Radha or Yasoda. One is material and the other is spiritual.

Stop, please your driving me nuts.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

The Paramātmā manifestation is also a temporary all-pervasive aspect of the Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. The Paramātmā manifestation is not eternal in the spiritual world.

 

Very interesting!!

 

This is along the lines of something Mathuranath Prabhu was saying up at the Seva Ashram during CC class on Friday prior to Gayatri initiations.

 

I thought he must be mistaken, but, now I see it is my own understanding which is very (very, very, very) incomplete.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Stop, please your driving me nuts.

*Driving*??? Isn't it a bit late for that?

 

 

Melvin's statement sure does come across as sahajiya, though. Something that Indulekha didi posted not too long ago (a song, perhaps) seemed to indicate that the mood of Bhaktivinoda Thakur was to view his family as the *prasad* of Sri Krishna.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Of course brahmajyoti is the spiritual sky. If you think about it what else could it be? We are just not used to the term being used in this way very often so it catches us off guard.

 

Maybe, but, if Brahman is undifferentiated consciousness, then how can there be innumerable planets contained within it? Seems inconceivable.

[sevabhakta]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>The śānta-rati realization of Kṛṣṇa is in the neutral stage between the conception of impersonalism and personalism. This means that one is not very strongly attached to the personal feature of the Lord. An appreciation of the greatness of the Lord is called śānta-rati. This is attachment not to the personal feature but to the impersonal feature. Generally, one in this stage is attached to the Paramātmā feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

 

The bold text and the red text give a different picture from one another.

 

The first sentence describes a neutral position between impersonalism and personalism.

 

Very subtle and a bit confusing for me.

 

 

Hare Krsna

 

In that Nectar of Devotion verse he was decribing a state called santa-rati. In my opinion, this is not a rasa.

 

That is why the bolded and red type words read as they are.

 

The concept of the stage between personalism and impersonalism may also be looked at from the point of view of the process of moving from impersonalism to personalism, in stages, and the stage just before the understanding of the personal individuality of Sri Bhagavan is considered a neutral stage between the two conceptions.

 

We see evidence of this unique neutral staging area where in the Srimad Bhagavatam he says..

 

 

The impersonal aspect of the Absolute Truth is not the highest. Above the impersonal feature is the Paramatma feature, and above this is the personal feature of the Absolute Truth, or Bhagavan. Srimad-Bhagavatam gives information about the Absolute Truth in His personal feature. (from SB1.1.2 purport.)

 

 

And in the Gita he points out,

 

 

"The Absolute Truth is realized in three phases of understanding by the knower of the Absolute Truth, and all of them are identical. Such phases of the Absolute Truth are expressed as Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan." (Bhag. 1.2.11) These three divine aspects can be explained by the example of the sun, which also has three different aspects, namely the sunshine, the sun's surface and the sun planet itself. One who studies the sunshine only is the preliminary student. One who understands the sun's surface is further advanced. And one who can enter into the sun planet is the highest. Ordinary students who are satisfied by simply understanding the sunshine-its universal pervasiveness and the glaring effulgence of its impersonal nature-may be compared to those who can realize only the Brahman feature of the Absolute Truth. The student who has advanced still further can know the sun disc, which is compared to knowledge of the Paramatma feature of the Absolute Truth. And the student who can enter into the heart of the sun planet is compared to those who realize the personal features of the Supreme Absolute Truth. Therefore, the bhaktas, or the transcendentalists who have realized the Bhagavan feature of the Absolute Truth, are the topmost transcendentalists, although all students who are engaged in the study of the Absolute Truth are engaged in the same subject matter. The sunshine, the sun disc and the inner affairs of the sun planet cannot be separated from one another, and yet the students of the three different phases are not in the same category.

 

 

So in this unique stage, generally, a soul is attached to the Paramatma feature when this tatastha stage between impersonalism and personalism is reached. The Christian lila is a Paramatma lila, for Jesus said he would instruct them further after he was gone through the decent of the Holy Spirit, and those who caught the essence of the teachings of Jesus have focused on meekly and submissively hearing Paramatma within.

 

Hare Krsna

 

[melvin]

The Brahman stage is where you`ve reached the status of Brahman, the creator of the universe. He`s isn`t a reactor, okay? When you`ve reached the all-pervading stage or Paramatma realization, one has realized that he/she is within every living entity. Just imagine you are all good. But in the later stages, the Bhagavan realization. One realizes he/she is Krsna/Radha himself/herself. That was how Narada Muni realized in the end. That he and Krsna themselves were no different. This is the state where one is in SAMADHI.

[sevabhakta]

 

The Brahman stage is where you`ve reached the status of Brahman, the creator of the universe. He`s isn`t a reactor, okay? When you`ve reached the all-pervading stage or Paramatma realization, one has realized that he/she is within every living entity. Just imagine you are all good. But in the later stages, the Bhagavan realization. One realizes he/she is Krsna/Radha himself/herself. That was how Narada Muni realized in the end. That he and Krsna themselves were no different. This is the state where one is in SAMADHI.

 

Melvin, I am glad you are interested in Gaudiya Philosophy. You personally should really get past the rudimentary "stage" of understanding of this philosophy before entering into conversations like this. So perhaps you could study up, take association of the devotees local to your area, and maybe come back here and read what others have to say from time to time, but just jumping in here and speaking about that which you don't understand yet, as if you were quite certain, will be the cause of you incurring certain reactions, you are breaking etiquette, and it just isn't very sporting of you.

 

Hare Krsna

[Murali_Mohan_das]

From my meager understanding, Brahma, the creator, and Brahman, the undifferentiated state of consciousness are two distinct concepts (which, of course, are parts of the greater Whole).

 

As for considering one's self to be Sri Krishna Himself, and not an infinitessimal part and parcel of the Lord, whose eternal position is as a servant of the Lord, that has clearly been called "sahajiya" or imitationism, and is to be avoided by the sincere seeker of the Truth.

 

 

The Brahman stage is where you`ve reached the status of Brahman, the creator of the universe. He`s isn`t a reactor, okay? When you`ve reached the all-pervading stage or Paramatma realization, one has realized that he/she is within every living entity. Just imagine you are all good. But in the later stages, the Bhagavan realization. One realizes he/she is Krsna/Radha himself/herself. That was how Narada Muni realized in the end. That he and Krsna themselves were no different. This is the state where one is in SAMADHI.

[melvin]

Don`t be a parrot either. Don`t be a Janus, too.The duality of life the Mr. Hyde and Dr. Jekyll. The good and bad. You can`t put a person in a box and label him/her that way by what he/she reads or write. Don`t judge others so that you won`t be judged. Don`t ever think you have reached a certain level of thought and that you already consider yourselves as bonafide to do this and that? Hahaha!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Am I judging you, or am I judging the ideas you are presenting? Did I call *you* a sahajiya, or did I call the conception you presented sahajiya? In fact, did I even call what you presented sahajiya or did I say that it sounds an awful lot like that which is defined as "imitationism"?

 

No doubt, I am proud and arrogant, but I'm not too proud or arrogant to admit how proud and arrogant I am (which, of course, in no way excuses my pride and arrogance).

 

As for being two-faced, at this point, I can't quite help it. I'm far from pure.

 

What are you?

 

 

Don`t be a parrot either. Don`t be a Janus, too.The duality of life the Mr. Hyde and Dr. Jekyll. The good and bad. You can`t put a person in a box and label him/her that way by what he/she reads or write. Don`t judge others so that you won`t be judged. Don`t ever think you have reached a certain level of thought and that you already consider yourselves as bonafide to do this and that? Hahaha!

[suchandra]

 

 

No doubt, I am proud and arrogant.......

Easy way how to become humble - serve prasadam to school-children.

 

<table class="content" cellpadding="8" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="headline" align="center">MRPL to provide mid–day meals</td></tr><tr><td class="smallheadline" align="center">

</td></tr><tr align="left"><td class="smallheadline">UDAYAVANI-ONLINE

</td></tr><tr><td class="content"><table align="right" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="0"><tbody><tr><td></td></tr><tr><td class="caption">

</td></tr></tbody></table>Mangalore, November 24: The Mangalore refineries and Petrochemicals Limited (MRPL) would provide midday meals to 2,250 school children through ISKCON, said managing director Rajamani.

 

Rajamani was addressing the gathering after distributing artificial limb to beneficiaries at a free artificial limb distribution camp organised by the MRPL at its Employee’s Club in Mangalore on Friday.

He said that the mid-day meal scheme would be launched soon for which the MRPL would provide all basic facilities for it.

 

He announced that the MRPl would also provide traffic signals at major junctions in Mangalore city.” We had a discussion with the Deputy Commissioner in this regard,” he added.

 

Talking about the Social Welfare Division of the MRPL, Rajamani said that the organisation had commitments towards the society.” A considerable percentage of our profit is being utilised for social service,” he said adding that the artificial limb distribution camps were organised in MRCT for that past 9 years.

 

 

A total of 83 beneficiaries from various parts of the state and from Kasaragod district of Kerala were given artificials legs on the occasion. The camp was organised with technical assistance of Mumbasi –bases Ademen Ortho Car(AOC)

 

MRPL vice-president (HR) S S Hegde and AOC execute Sher Singh were present.

</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Beggar]

 

Melvin, I am glad you are interested in Gaudiya Philosophy. You personally should really get past the rudimentary "stage" of understanding of this philosophy before entering into conversations like this. So perhaps you could study up, take association of the devotees local to your area, and maybe come back here and read what others have to say from time to time, but just jumping in here and speaking about that which you don't understand yet, as if you were quite certain, will be the cause of you incurring certain reactions, you are breaking etiquette, and it just isn't very sporting of you.

Hare Krsna

 

Now two examples of a basic fact and concept that you don't understand.

 

 

From my meager understanding, Brahma, the creator, and Brahman, the undifferentiated state of consciousness are two distinct concepts (which, of course, are parts of the greater Whole).

 

As for considering one's self to be Sri Krishna Himself, and not an infinitessimal part and parcel of the Lord, whose eternal position is as a servant of the Lord, that has clearly been called "sahajiya" or imitationism, and is to be avoided by the sincere seeker of the Truth.

 

Now here's the comeback:

 

Don`t be a parrot either. Don`t be a Janus, too.The duality of life the Mr. Hyde and Dr. Jekyll. The good and bad. You can`t put a person in a box and label him/her that way by what he/she reads or write. Don`t judge others so that you won`t be judged. Don`t ever think you have reached a certain level of thought and that you already consider yourselves as bonafide to do this and that? Hahaha!

 

PPPPPPaaaaaaaaallllllease, GIVE US A BREAK!!!!!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Really, melvin, the safest position for neophytes like you and I, who are still filled with doubt and confusion, is to ask a lot of questions. Don't you think so? Otherwise, we are almost guaranteed to make some offense.

 

While the Lord can carelessly tolerate any attack which we might level upon Him personally, He is not very tolerant when we offend His pure devotees. I have heard this, and, in my own meager experience, I have *seen* it time and time again.