Paramatma-Vadis are Not Devotees?

[mahak]

thanks, theist, I knew he said it somewhere:deal: But it wont do no good, because he said bhaktivinode never said anything his guru didnt say, but his guru didnt say jesus, and he did.

 

Never is a terrible word, never use it.

[Guruvani]

 

C'mon gentlemen, not every word contains a transliteration that employs every possible equivilant meaning.

 

"

Well, I was just hounding Mahak to test his humility.

Rasa is something like flavor, yet it is flavor that comes only from aging and maturation of the sugars.

It is flavor, yet it is especially a soft and sweet flavor.

 

Dog poop has a flavor, yet it is not rasa because it is not soft and sweet like rasa.

[suchandra]

 

but I do use quotes, but you dont read em.

When surfing through audarya, actually I always read Mahak prabhu's posts and till now always felt inspired when reading his posts!

I must say that I have not enough time to write, to make good posts takes time. At least I can't quickly write something what is rich in content. Sometimes I would like to write a comment but just have no time.

[Guruvani]

 

When surfing through audarya, actually I always read Mahak prabhu's posts and till now

 

Well, Makak did pretty good for a guy who was out surfing and smoking weed one day and decided to come back to the Hare Krishna temple and jump into an initiation ceremony.

(according to him)

[suchandra]

 

Well, Makak did pretty good for a guy who was out surfing and smoking weed one day and decided to come back to the Hare Krishna temple and jump into an initiation ceremony.

(according to him)

 

Sometimes it so happens that Guruvani prabhu doesnt post for two or three days and I become very frustrated. In order to get the best out of him one has to pretend to oppose, although not actually opposing.

[Guruvani]

 

Sometimes it so happens that Guruvani prabhu doesnt post for two or three days and I become very frustrated. In order to get the best out of him one has to pretend to oppose, although not actually opposing.

Ah shucks......now you got me all red-faced!

 

[theist]

Well the thread had for the most part a nice flavor. I don't think it speaks very well of us here that we can't stay focused on a krsna consacious subject for more than a few posts before we allow it to denigrate.

 

But now that it has I'll take my shot. I think Guruvani has done suprisely well for someone who got intiated in 1975 and then stayed in Iskcon until 82 or 83 kowtowing to the 11 frauds who stole Prabhupada's istitutiton. We are happy you finally woke up prabhu.

[melvin]

Rasa in our dialect means a superior breeding. We visayans( visaya is a sanskrit word for a person who engages in sex, gambling and alcoholic intoxication) have cockfighting as our favorite pastime. The odds are on the side of an inferior cock when matched with a rasa.

[mahak]

the flavor of the world is a pervereted reflection of the flavor in Vaikuntha. Therefore, the flavor of gross matter is not comparable to the flavor of vaikuntha. Your analogy is useless.

 

I droppede out at the initiation ceremony. What drove me here is not the issue, some via pot, some via prostitute, some via bhogi yogi, none worthy. But one must become wise, or will leave, drop the lifeline.

 

Maybe Ill go back to the lilith or sophia phase. Wisdom is what is needed, and given, so dont worry bout our value, we are insignificant, cant even claim to be the most fallen, or as arlo says, dont even got a street to lay down in so a truck can run us over. The deal is, what now, brown cow.

 

Whatcha think, madman melvin???

 

mahak

[mahak]

there is a tex mex term, tabula rasa. Seen it written in novels and other stuff, but didnt bother to define.

[mahak]

 

But now that it has I'll take my shot. I think Guruvani has done suprisely well for someone who got intiated in 1975 and then stayed in Iskcon until 82 or 83 kowtowing to the 11 frauds who stole Prabhupada's istitutiton. We are happy you finally woke up prabhu.

 

I took early retirement, but went a few times in 78-79, LA when I wanted a good laugh, Laguna when I just wanted to see the deities (there werent any in LA, just statues in front of the paundrakas on their multiple toilet seats).

 

Some stayed to enjoy the comedy act, some had to run. The ones running away were often chased by nice people deluded by false idol worship and service to Kali Cela. Most of my rtvik friends just couldnt get a spot on top, so they rebelled. But some who stayed were focused, did not let anything distract, for these I have my soft spot for ISKCON.

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[melvin]

Before I became interested in the art and science of Krsna consciousness, I thought ISKCON was an organization of ex-convicts. Hahaha!

[Kulapavana]

Here is the quote from the most important shastra of the "paramatma-vadis" - the Yoga-sutras of Patanjali:

 

 

1.18. There is another meditation which is attained by the practice of alert mental suspension until only subtle impressions remain.

1.19. For those beings who are formless and for those beings who are merged in unitive consciousness, the world is the cause.

1.20. For others, clarity is preceded by faith, energy, memory and equalminded contemplation. 1.21. Equalminded contemplation is nearest to those whose desire is most ardent.

 

1.22. There is further distinction on account of the mild, moderate or intense means employed.

1.23. Or by surrender to God.

1.24. God is a particular yet universal indweller, untouched by afflictions, actions, impressions and their results.

1.25. In God, the seed of omniscience is unsurpassed.

1.26. Not being conditioned by time, God is the teacher of even the ancients.

1.27. God's voice is Om.

1.28. The repetition of Om should be made with an understanding of its meaning. 1.29. From that is gained introspection and also the disappearance of obstacles.

 

To claim that people who put to practice these concepts are somehow non-devotees is quite absurd. The yogis in their meditation first imagine the form of the Lord, then they actually see Him. Because that form is very enchanting, intense appreciation and devotion follows suit.

 

The reason Srila Prabhupada speaks rather negatively about the yogis comes from his duty as a proponent of bhakti and from the fact that many forms of yoga lost their original intent and discipline.

 

Srila Prabhupada often called Christians and Moslems "devotees of the Lord", yet somehow the worshippers of the Paramatma aspect of the Lord are NON-devotees? That is pure insanity. Precisely which aspect of the Lord do these other religions actually worship?

[mahak]

Because the islam and judeo christian WORSHIP from a position of servitude to a personal God, whereas, there is no worship or service rendered by the meditator on localized paramatma. There may be vestiges of desire left in the paramatma vadi, but such desire is not for the lord, rather a desire to become one with the localized paramatma.

 

It is a simple matter that one cannot be considered devotee unless there is recognition of God being a separate being, worthy of worship. The occidental versaions of rudimentary vaisnavism accept this, allah akbar (god is great), the lords prayer, etc.

 

As discussed above, the mystic may eventually come to accept the separate aspect of the Supreme Person while engaging in meditation on supersoul, but this is not a natural progression of such practice, which usually succumbs to monism and false claims that the jiva has become god.

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[Kulapavana]

 

Because the islam and judeo christian WORSHIP from a position of servitude to a personal God, whereas, there is no worship or service rendered by the meditator on localized paramatma. There may be vestiges of desire left in the paramatma vadi, but such desire is not for the lord, rather a desire to become one with the localized paramatma.

 

It is a simple matter that one cannot be considered devotee unless there is recognition of God being a separate being, worthy of worship. The occidental versaions of rudimentary vaisnavism accept this, allah akbar (god is great), the lords prayer, etc.

 

As discussed above, the mystic may eventually come to accept the separate aspect of the Supreme Person while engaging in meditation on supersoul, but this is not a natural progression of such practice, which usually succumbs to monism and false claims that the jiva has become god.

 

 

1. It is patently not true that the Yogasutras equate jiva with the isvara and the same applies to most classical yoga lineages.

 

2. The meditation on the form of the Lord and the chanting of the sacred omkara ARE forms of worship (smaranam, sravanam, kirtanam)

 

3. The simplistic interpretation of monism as preached within Iskcon is completely inaccurate - in the sense of both philosophy and history. Sukadeva Goswami was described as a MONIST in Srimad Bhagavatam - why dont you search the vedabase for the words related to monism in our shastras?

 

4. IF the servitude to some higher power in itself is sufficient for someone to be considered a devotee (like in the Moslem tradition where God is completely impersonal) then why yogis worshipping Paramatma can't be considered devotees? That is a completely absurd reasoning.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

2. The meditation on the form of the Lord and the chanting of the sacred omkara ARE forms of worship (smaranam, sravanam, kirtanam)

 

It's a form of worship, to be sure, but is it *devotional* worship?

 

As an aside, my parents both studied with Dr. Mishra (Swami Brahmananda Saraswati), author of a noted commentary on the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali (which I've not read), prior to coming to the feet of Srila Prabhupada. I was born at Dr. Mishra's Ashram in upstate New York. During my high school years in New York, my father and I visited Dr. Mishra's Ashram a number of times, and I got to chant "Om Namah Shivaya" with him and his disciples (once, he even asked me to lead the congregation in Maha Mantra).

 

So, I have a soft spot in my heart for the so-called Mayavadis. Dr. Mishra and his disciples are beautiful souls.

[theist]

 

So, I have a soft spot in my heart for the so-called Mayavadis. Dr. Mishra and his disciples are beautiful souls.

 

 

Yes, the so-called mayavadi is just as much a part of Krsna as a vaisnava so a vaisnava will naturally love them also and appreciate their good qualities while at the same time remaing distant and not hearing from them because of their contracting the disease of impersonalism. It is a self defense measure and not based on hatred.

 

I heard in the early seventies that Srila Prabhupada remarked that Sri Yukteswar (Paramahansa Yogananda's guru) was a "beautiful soul."

[Kulapavana]

 

It's a form of worship, to be sure, but is it *devotional* worship?

 

 

the entire element of isvara pranidhana (one of the key components of yoga, central to Yogasutras) is 100% devotional. It is far, far more devotional then praying for your daily bread.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

the entire element of isvara pranidhana (one of the key components of yoga, central to Yogasutras) is 100% devotional. It is far, far more devotional then praying for your daily bread.

 

In which way is this devotion manifested?

[Kulapavana]

 

In which way is this devotion manifested?

 

there are feelings of respect, admiration, gratitude, longing... it is an inner, meditative mode of devotion. no, there is no offering of flowers, lamp, or incense, yet it is very much a state of devotion. mere hand movements in front of the altar are not in themselves a manifestation of devotion.

 

before I joined the movement I studied and practiced yoga for several years, and the isvara pranidhana element permeated all true yogic teachings I ever came across.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

there are feelings of respect, admiration, gratitude, longing... it is an inner, meditative mode of devotion. no, there is no offering of flowers, lamp, or incense, yet it is very much a state of devotion. mere hand movements in front of the altar are not in themselves a manifestation of devotion.

 

before I joined the movement I studied and practiced yoga for several years, and the isvara pranidhana element permeated all true yogic teachings I ever came across.

 

I see. I think this is why Srila Prabhupada makes the distinction, then. The Gaudiya Vaishnavas seem to emphasize *practical* devotional service (and not even arcana), not mere sentiment (devotional or otherwise).

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

I see. I think this is why Srila Prabhupada makes the distinction, then. The Gaudiya Vaishnavas seem to emphasize *practical* devotional service (and not even arcana), not mere sentiment (devotional or otherwise).

 

In other words, of what *use* are those sentiments if they do not spur one on to outward expression?

[Kulapavana]

 

I see. I think this is why Srila Prabhupada makes the distinction, then. The Gaudiya Vaishnavas seem to emphasize *practical* devotional service (and not even arcana), not mere sentiment (devotional or otherwise).

 

For the same reason the active preachers are applauded and glorified while the contemplative bhajananandis are minimized and sometimes even ridiculed...

 

Ostensibly we are after the change in consciousness, while in fact we are after big temples, money, political clout, and scores of followers that such "changes in consciousness" should produce...

[Murali_Mohan_das]

What you describe in the second paragraph is not devotion, is it?

 

Devotional service is caring enough about one's friends to bring them to the feet of the spiritual master in order to alleviate their suffering (for example).

 

Even the Buddhists have some appreciation for compassion.

 

 

For the same reason the active preachers are applauded and glorified while the contemplative bhajananandis are minimized and sometimes even ridiculed...

 

Ostensibly we are after the change in consciousness, while in fact we are after big temples, money, political clout, and scores of followers that such "changes in consciousness" should produce...

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Perhaps some licorice root would help get the bitter taste out of your mouth, Kulapavana-ji.