Paramatma-Vadis are Not Devotees?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Why meditate on the asses (mudha) when you can meditate on the angels (Dev-Goswami)?

[Kulapavana]

 

What you describe in the second paragraph is not devotion, is it?

 

 

It is still devotion, but it is mixed with other things (things are not black and white, you know )

 

I understand why some things are emphasized to make them more useful in preaching, or to be meant as a warning to us students. Yet, this approach is sometimes just as bad, or just as risky, as the things we try to avoid.

 

Look at the trail of tears our movement produced, besides it's very obvious and laudable achievments... it almost begs a question: "was it worth it?"

was such practical extremism really justified? calling everybody that does not think exactly like us bad names, minimizing their spirituality, spreading simplistic ideas that ultimately diminish the importance of our message and our tradition, etc.

 

I'll pass on licorice but I will have some chocolate...

[Guruvani]

Paramatma worship is the system of the yogis.

Yogis are after mystic siddhis to control the material elements.

Since the pursuit of the yogi is more-or-less self-centered desire for mystical powers they are not classified as Bhaktas proper.

The Bhakta must become free of all these personal ambitions and desires for mystic powers.

As long as the yogi is seeking mystic siddhi he is not practicing bhakti proper.

 

Mystic siddhis are for exploiting the material energy for personal pleasure.

As such, the yogis are not amongst the pure devotees as they worship Paramatma for personal gain.

[gHari]

Srila Prabhupada notes that whatever level of yogic advancement one achieves, he is known by that process. Hence, some are referred to as karma-yogis, some jnana-yogis, others astanga-yogis or dhyana-yogis (Paramatma-vadis), and some bhakti-yogis.

 

The Absolute Truth is realized in three aspects: Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan [SB 1.2.11]. Each level corresponds respectively to the actualzation of the jiva's true sat, cit and ananda nature.

 

Although transcendental Himself, Paramatma manifests only within the material worlds of the mahat-tattvas. God directly is the Lord of the spiritual world. So while the yogi follows caitya-guru Paramatma, he has yet to reach the end of his training. And the goal of all yogic processes is the absolute surrender to Sri Krsna. That is the sadhaka, the devotee, the vaishnava. Sa mahatma sudurlabhah. [BG 7.19]

[cbrahma]

 

Despite the misinformation being put out about santa rasa here on these forums. there is no santa rasa in brahmana realization. Santa rasa means to appreciate the divinity of the Supreme Person, but there is no self to appreciate in brahman.

 

Santa rasa takes place in paramatma realization. Fron here, mysticism takes place, appreciation of God in his all pervading aspect takes place. But santa rasa is not really a desirable position for a devotee. Devotee means active servant, so the beginning of bhakti, bhagavan realization, is beyond the threshhold of santa rasa.

 

One who has realized the superself within is still in a self-serving mode, enjoying the buzz of self realization. A bhagavan-vadi, or bhakti yogi, is never self-serving, his whole business is service of another, Sri Bhagavan.

 

However, when the bhakti yogi meditates on supersoul, he notes the presence of Lord Sesa Balarama, Lord Nityananda, and Guru. This Paramatma realization is actually Bhagavan realization, because service is reciprocally rendered, and this bhakti yoga is also known as guru-tattwa.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

Once again you bring sobering truth and sanity into the discussion.

[Guruvani]

 

Once again you bring sobering truth and sanity into the discussion.

The problem is that he can't support his statements with authorized shastric reference.

So, he is just rambling on off the top of his head.

This position gets defeated immediately if one goes to discuss anything with scholars who actually know the language of the Gaudiya shastra.

 

He claims there is no shanta-rasa in brahman realization.

Can he support that with shastra?

No.

 

It's Mahaks opinion.

It is not supported in shastra.

[theist]

 

Srila Prabhupada notes that whatever level of yogic advancement one achieves, he is known by that process. Hence, some are referred to as karma-yogis, some jnana-yogis, others astanga-yogis or dhyana-yogis (Paramatma-vadis), and some bhakti-yogis.

 

The Absolute Truth is realized in three aspects: Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan [SB 1.2.11]. Each level corresponds respectively to the actualzation of the jiva's true sat, cit and ananda nature.

 

Although transcendental Himself, Paramatma manifests only within the material worlds of the mahat-tattvas. God directly is the Lord of the spiritual world. So while the yogi follows caitya-guru Paramatma, he has yet to reach the end of his training. And the goal of all yogic processes is the absolute surrender to Sri Krsna. That is the sadhaka, the devotee, the vaishnava. Sa mahatma sudurlabhah. [BG 7.19]

 

gHari,

 

What is the fate of a Paramatma realized yogi that leaves his body in that consciousness. He was gone past Brahman realization but not yet reached Bhagavan realization and solidified his place in the variegated Spiritual Sky?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Look at the trail of tears our movement produced, besides it's very obvious and laudable achievments... it almost begs a question: "was it worth it?"

 

Srila Prabhupada said (or implied) that it would all be worth it if he only made *one* real devotee.

 

I consider *you* to be a real (if not yet completely pure) devotee (among others), so, yes, it was worth it.

[melvin]

Swami Jesus(Prabhupad) said," Just give me one devotee and I`m willing to sit under the tree with him/her forever." When he was alive, Swami Jesus(Prabhupad) wanted to do a Parikrama by visiting temples before he died. That was his last request. And they denied him.What type of devotees were they?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

The Vaishnava never dies. Even Jesus Christ knew this.

 

 

Swami Jesus(Prabhupad) said," Just give me one devotee and I`m willing to sit under the tree with him/her forever." When he was alive, Swami Jesus(Prabhupad) wanted to do a Parikrama by visiting temples before he died. That was his last request. And they denied him.What type of devotees were they?

[Guruvani]

There is only one Swami Jesus and that is Jesus, not Srila Prabhupada.

[Kulapavana]

 

Srila Prabhupada said (or implied) that it would all be worth it if he only made *one* real devotee.

 

I consider *you* to be a real (if not yet completely pure) devotee (among others), so, yes, it was worth it.

 

Thank you for your kind words. I wish I had more of your kindness in me.

 

I was refering ("was it worth it?") not to the mission in general, but to the particular practical approach Srila Prabhupada (and Iskcon in general) took: very confrontational, very critical, very dogmatic, and very authoritarian.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

I was refering ("was it worth it?") not to the mission in general, but to the particular practical approach Srila Prabhupada (and Iskcon in general) took: very confrontational, very critical, very dogmatic, and very authoritarian.

At the risk of making some offense, I have to agree with you about Srila Prabhupada's approach to preaching. Of course, it also behooves us to remember just how merciful and tolerant Srila Prabhupada was.

 

It's just hear-say, but, someone related that, when the first San Francisco Jagannath Deity was being carved, Srila Prabhupada dropped by unexpectedly to visit the place of carving, only to find a pack of cigarettes on top of the unfinished carving of the Lord. I can't recall his exact response, but is was not at all what one might have expected. He was kind and mild in his correction. Or am I making all of this up? With my memory, one never knows.

 

In any case, when the disease is as acute and advanced as it is in some of us, strong medicine is called for.

 

As Sripad Goswami Maharaja recently reminded us, there is nothing but a mountain of false ego standing between us and the Lord. All it takes is one bolt of lightning from above to shatter that mountain. Srila Prabhupada certainly struck at the heart of the false ego of the West like a thunderbolt!!

[Kulapavana]

 

As Sripad Goswami Maharaja recently reminded us, there is nothing but a mountain of false ego standing between us and the Lord. All it takes is one bolt of lightning from above to shatter that mountain. Srila Prabhupada certainly struck at the heart of the false ego of the West light a thunderbolt!!

 

Very deep observation...

 

Srila Prabhupada is (and always will be) my spiritual father. Still, sometimes despite a deep love we disagree with our fathers on some things. Such differences do not really sour the relationship if the feeling of love and respect is maintained.

 

The real (as opposed to theoretical) relationships between living entities are always very complex.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Very deep observation...

 

Srila Prabhupada is (and always will be) my spiritual father. Still, sometimes despite a deep love we disagree with our fathers on some things. Such differences do not really sour the relationship if the feeling of love and respect is maintained.

 

The real (as opposed to theoretical) relationships between living entities are always very complex.

 

Ooops. I fixed that typo ("like" for "light").

 

Thanks for the reminder regarding our personal relationship with Sri Guru. If we truly have affection, then it *will* be more of a parent-child relationship (with all that that entails) than a purely servile one.

[Kulapavana]

 

Ooops. I fixed that typo ("like" for "light").

 

Thanks for the reminder regarding our personal relationship with Sri Guru. If we truly have affection, then it *will* be more of a parent-child relationship (with all that that entails) than a purely servile one.

 

My relationship with SP started with a typical purely servile one (based on an almost blind admiration for the guru) which over the years developed into what I consider a more real and much deeper father-child relationship of a more mature "son".

[theist]

The devotee is "soft as a rose and as powerful as a thunderbolt."

[melvin]

Just don`t give a devotee tantrums, Theist! Hahaha!

[gHari]

Theist, I would think that a person following Paramatma would after death pick up from there, but it appears from Prabhupada's letter below that such fortune is not necessarily guaranteed. It seems it depends on what the yogi was looking for when he realized the Supersoul:

 

Tittenhurst

 

15 October, 1969

 

 

My Dear Brahmananda,

 

Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated October 12, 1969 and have noted the contents. Regarding your question about Mantra 12 of Isopanisad, the verse as it is, is correct. The Absolute means Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan. When the Absolute is realized hazily it is Brahman. When the Absolute is realized more clearly it is Paramatma. And when the Absolute is realized distinctly it is Bhagavan. So Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan are different phases of the Absolute Truth. But the Bhagavan aspect of the Absolute Truth is distinct from everything. Those who worship the Brahman and Paramatma aspect of the Absolute Truth are in a dangerous position because they have every chance of again falling down into the lowest regions. This is because they are not fully purified, and the least trace of contaminated desire can cause havoc to one's progress. Just like one lit cigarette can cause a whole house to burn down, so incomplete knowledge of the whole Absolute Truth may not be able to save one from going to the darkest regions of ignorance.

Isopanisad says that such persons who accept Brahman or Paramatma as the final word of God-realization will be ``still more'' condemned. This is because they are offenders of God and are very stubborn to accept the Supreme Personality.

If one refuses to progress to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then he is sure to fall down again into darkness. The worshippers of the demigods at least have fear of some higher personality, and that may eventually develop into fear of the Supreme Personality. But the impersonalists think that everything is Brahma, everyone is God, therefore they can do whatever they want; and that is a still more dangerous position. I think this will clear up the matter for you.

 

 

I hope this will meet you in good health.

 

 

Your ever well-wisher,

 

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

 

PS: Isopanisad means ``the knowledge that leads nearer to Krsna.'' I am returning herewith the Gita Press book you sent me for the Sanskrit Text. It is nice.

 

 

 

http://vedabase.net/iso/12/en

[krishnadasa]

I rather keep myself numb on such issues as there are many great sages giving many different intepretations.. Krishna is not understandable, otherwise why there is always different (slightly) schools of thoughts on the same subjects...

 

Hari bol

[melvin]

Remember the biblical Tower of Babel? The poeple wanted to reach God by building a tower that would reach heaven. What happened? God punished them when they spoke in different tongues instead of one before the tower they built could reach heaven. Because they couldn`t understand anymore each other they abandoned the project. That`s what we are now!

[HerServant]

 

Bhagavad-g?t? As It Is 7.4 purport,

 

 

The Param?tm? manifestation is also a temporary all-pervasive aspect of the Ks??rodaka??y? Vis?n?u. The Param?tm? manifestation is not eternal in the spiritual world.

 

Paramatma is eternal. How can God be non eternal in any circumstance?

 

Paramatma realization is also experienced here and not just in the spiritual sky. There are three aspect of Paramatma realization. The first is a "chit anandaHoly Spirit" realization of God's presence. You "feel" the Holy Spirit. You are conscious of God's love, you are joyful.

 

On this level, He is experienced without realization His personal form, but the experience is personal to you.

 

Another Paramatma (realization) is His manifestation in the Spiritual sky.

 

Here He emerges from a cloud, covering a portion of the Spiritual sky and descends into the heart of the devotee. When He enters the heart of the devotee, the devotees is conscious of being absorbed in His Love. In the one effulgence of His Love, we may lose consciousness of being separate.

But for a devotee, this baptism is personal because His purpose is to purify the devotee's heart and impress into the mind of the devotee, that his ultimate destination is not the spiritual sky, but rather the cloud covered place from where Paramatma descends.

 

Paramatma is the very love exchanged between Father and Son, Krsna and Baladeva. This Love takes the form of the "Gift of Himself" Person of God.

 

He is eternal. Beyond the Spiritual Sky, I cannot comment but certainly the memory of His manifestation will be eternally held in the hearts of His devotees.

 

May His Perpertual Light shine upon us all, and guide guide us home.

 

HerServant and yours.

[melvin]

Souls are eternal, too.

[HerServant]

 

Bhagavad-g?t? As It Is 7.4 purport,

 

 

The Param?tm? manifestation is also a temporary all-pervasive aspect of the Ks??rodaka??y? Vis?n?u. The Param?tm? manifestation is not eternal in the spiritual world.

 

Paramatma is eternal. How can God be non eternal in any circumstance?

 

Paramatma realization is also experienced here and not just in the spiritual sky. There are three aspect of Paramatma realization. The first is a "chit anandaHoly Spirit" realization of God's presence. You "feel" the Holy Spirit. You are conscious of God's love, you are joyful.

 

On this level, He is experienced without realization His personal form, but the experience is personal to you.

 

Another Paramatma (realization) is His manifestation in the Spiritual sky.

 

Here He emerges from a cloud, covering a portion of the Spiritual sky and descends into the heart of the devotee. When He enters the heart of the devotee, the devotees is conscious of being absorbed in His Love. In the one effulgence of His Love, we may lose consciousness of being separate.

But for a devotee, this baptism is personal because His purpose is to purify the devotee's heart and impress into the mind of the devotee, that his ultimate destination is not the spiritual sky, but rather the cloud covered place from where Paramatma descends.

 

Paramatma is the very love exchanged between Father and Son, Krsna and Baladeva. This Love takes the form of the "Gift of Himself" Person of God.

 

He is eternal. Beyond the Spiritual Sky, I cannot comment but certainly the memory of His manifestation will be eternally held in the hearts of His devotees.

 

May His Perpertual Light shine upon us all, and guide guide us home.

 

HerServant and yours.

[Beggar]

Chapter 7: Knowledge of the AbsoluteBhaktivedanta VedaBase: Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 7.4

bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ

khaḿ mano buddhir eva ca

ahańkāra itīyaḿ me

bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā

SYNONYMS

bhūmiḥ — earth; āpaḥ — water; analaḥ — fire; vāyuḥ — air; kham — ether; manaḥ — mind; buddhiḥ — intelligence; eva — certainly; ca — and; ahańkāraḥ — false ego; iti — thus; iyam — all these; me — My; bhinnā — separated; prakṛtiḥ — energies; aṣṭadhā — eightfold.

TRANSLATION

Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego — all together these eight constitute My separated material energies.

PURPORT

The science of God analyzes the constitutional position of God and His diverse energies. Material nature is called prakṛti, or the energy of the Lord in His different puruṣa incarnations (expansions) as described in the Sātvata-tantra:

viṣṇos tu trīṇi rūpāṇi

puruṣākhyāny atho viduḥ

ekaḿ tu mahataḥ sraṣṭṛ

dvitīyaḿ tv aṇḍa-saḿsthitam

tṛtīyaḿ sarva-bhūta-sthaḿ

tāni jñātvā vimucyate

"For material creation, Lord Kṛṣṇa's plenary expansion assumes three Viṣṇus. The first one, Mahā-Viṣṇu, creates the total material energy, known as the mahat-tattva. The second, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, enters into all the universes to create diversities in each of them. The third, Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, is diffused as the all-pervading Supersoul in all the universes and is known as Paramātmā. He is present even within the atoms. Anyone who knows these three Viṣṇus can be liberated from material entanglement."

This material world is a temporary manifestation of one of the energies of the Lord. All the activities of the material world are directed by these three Viṣṇu expansions of Lord Kṛṣṇa. These puruṣas are called incarnations. Generally one who does not know the science of God (Kṛṣṇa) assumes that this material world is for the enjoyment of the living entities and that the living entities are the puruṣas — the causes, controllers and enjoyers of the material energy. According to Bhagavad-gītā this atheistic conclusion is false. In the verse under discussion it is stated that Kṛṣṇa is the original cause of the material manifestation. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also confirms this. The ingredients of the material manifestation are separated energies of the Lord. Even the brahmajyoti, which is the ultimate goal of the impersonalists, is a spiritual energy manifested in the spiritual sky. There are no spiritual diversities in the brahmajyoti as there are in the Vaikuṇṭhalokas, and the impersonalist accepts this brahmajyoti as the ultimate eternal goal. The Paramātmā manifestation is also a temporary all-pervasive aspect of the Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. The Paramātmā manifestation is not eternal in the spiritual world. Therefore the factual Absolute Truth is the Supreme Personality of Godhead Kṛṣṇa. He is the complete energetic person, and He possesses different separated and internal energies.

In the material energy, the principal manifestations are eight, as above mentioned. Out of these, the first five manifestations, namely earth, water, fire, air and sky, are called the five gigantic creations or the gross creations, within which the five sense objects are included. They are the manifestations of physical sound, touch, form, taste and smell. Material science comprises these ten items and nothing more. But the other three items, namely mind, intelligence and false ego, are neglected by the materialists. Philosophers who deal with mental activities are also not perfect in knowledge because they do not know the ultimate source, Kṛṣṇa. The false ego — "I am," and "It is mine, which constitute the basic principle of material existence — includes ten sense organs for material activities. Intelligence refers to the total material creation, called the mahat-tattva. Therefore from the eight separated energies of the Lord are manifest the twenty-four elements of the material world, which are the subject matter of Sāńkhya atheistic philosophy; they are originally offshoots from Kṛṣṇa's energies and are separated from Him, but atheistic Sāńkhya philosophers with a poor fund of knowledge do not know Kṛṣṇa as the cause of all causes. The subject matter for discussion in the Sāńkhya philosophy is only the manifestation of the external energy of Kṛṣṇa, as it is described in the Bhagavad-gītā.