Drutakarma das - mastermind of sleepervada

[Guruvani]

Here is the download to his complete treatise on the sleepvada siddhanta and fall of the jiva.

 

http://www.dipika.org/downloads/jiva.zip

[Guruvani]

all the quotes and references you see on this forum by Vigraha and Sarva-Gatah come from this thesis by Drutakarma.

[Guruvani]

Drutakarma - guru to the ISKCON gurus and GBC.

 

Drutakarma:

 

 

3. In resolving philosophical controversies, the teachings, instructions, and personal example of Srila Prabhupada are the first and primary resource. If a conclusion, recognized by the GBC, can be drawn from careful study of this resource, it shall guide further research into the Vedic literature, the writings of previous acaryas, and the teachings of currentbona fide Vaisnava acaryas outside ISKCON. Everything that can be harmonized to the conclusion arrived at from Srila Prabhupada’s teachings shall be accepted. Any contradictions that cannot be resolved shall be placed in the category of “differences among the acaryas.” But ISKCON members shall follow the conclusion of Srila Prabhupada when there is such a difference.

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[sevabhakta]

This is a switch'em up con job using the Hegelian Dialectic of Problem-Reaction-Solution.

 

There never was a "philisophical controversy" until someone neglected the instruction of their spiritual master.

 

Following the order and direction of the Spiritual Master is the prerequisite factor that allows whatever degree of philosophy one gathers reading of Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam to be experienced and understood in a meaningful and revelatory way.

 

Neglecting the order of the spiritual master puts one outside the mercy in terms of spiritual advancement, so it logically follows that without recognition, regret, repentance and reversal of this disobedience, any subsequent philosophical study would only further a twisted false ego's agenda for undue sense aggrandizement. A fallen neophyte who doesn't give a rats ass that he disobeyed, he just wants to tell people about God on his terms.

 

In other words, such ones are the devil quoting scripture.

 

They are easy to spot. After manipulating scripture to give artificial strength to their position, these Sky Pirates troll the sea of nescience for the flotsam and jetsam of lost and naive humanity to join em for a trip to neverland, looking for treasure instead of distributing it.

 

Srila Prabhupada's brahminically inclined disciples were to be like Kardama Munis to their spiritual father/creator, Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

SB 3.24.12

 

brahmovaca

tvaya me ’pacitis tata

kalpita nirvyalikatah

yan me sanjagrhe vakyam

bhavan manada manayan

TRANSLATION

Lord Brahma said: My dear son Kardama, since you have completely accepted my instructions without duplicity, showing them proper respect, you have worshiped me properly. Whatever instructions you took from me you have carried out, and thereby you have honored me.

 

PURPORT

Lord Brahmä, as the first living entity within the universe, is supposed to be the spiritual master of everyone, and he is also the father, the creator, of all beings. Kardama Muni is one of the Prajäpatis, or creators of the living entities, and he is also a son of Brahmä. Brahmä praises Kardama because he carried out the orders of the spiritual master in toto and without cheating. A conditioned soul in the material world has the disqualification of cheating. He has four disqualifications: he is sure to commit mistakes, he is sure to be illusioned, he is prone to cheat others, and his senses are imperfect. But if one carries out the order of the spiritual master by disciplic succession, or the paramparä system, he overcomes the four defects. Therefore, knowledge received from the bona fide spiritual master is not cheating. Any other knowledge which is manufactured by the conditioned soul is cheating only. Brahmä knew well that Kardama Muni exactly carried out the instructions received from him and that he actually honored his spiritual master. To honor the spiritual master means to carry out his instructions word for word.

 

 

 

Personally, I have seen enough sky pirates for one lifetime.

 

The cheaters, their apologists/wannabees, and the cheated sure aren't going to give up their nonsense without a fight. What a circus. It was Ok to peek into their Big Top for a while, but it is just the same old act, different yuga, Yawn, Snore, zzzzzz... They just want everyone to fall back into a dreamy Sahajiya Slumber. You too can be an instant Gopi, as a matter of fact YOU ALREADY ARE, just mail us $108 dollars a week, don't read the fine print, blah, blah blah.

 

They have wreaked havoc on Iskcon. I did a search on my folio, just the word Iskcon, 63 hits, and the first 17 are found in the below purports.

 

 

SB: 4.8.54 4.8.72 4.12.48 4..22.23 4.22.24

5.8.30 5.14.4

7.2.12 7.4.30-33

9.15.25

 

CC- Adi 9.50, Adi 10.7, Adi 10.13, Adi 10.160, Adi 12.8, Adi 12.27, Adi 12.73

 

It was an enlightening experience to read these selections and see how Srila Prabhupada used the term Iskcon in his purports to Sastra. Doing so made it obvious to me that Iskcon will long outlast these buffoons, and the term Iskcon will garner the greatest respect on earth once all the dust is settled and the Founder and Acarya's instructions are taken up in earnest by a few good men.

 

Hare Krsna

[gHari]

Such a complex topic which even Babaji avoids answering directly, yet we will risk all for our fancy in ridiculing our good brothers. This is not the cleverness of a wise man; such humility will not fall at Krsna's lotus feet.

[theist]

Such a complex topic which even Babaji avoids answering directly, yet we will risk all for our fancy in ridiculing our good brothers. Such humility will not stand in front of Lord Sri Krsna. This is not the cleverness of a wise man.

[Beggar]

This is assuming that there really is a difference between Srila Prabhupada and other acaryas. This is why Hrdayananda Maharaja told me that Srila Prabhupada had a new and unique realization on the origin of the jiva. Drutakarma who was one of the principle architects of the theories behind the GBC's OOP, "Our Original Position" later could understand that the theory that we fell from Goloka was contradicted by many of Srila Prabhupada's written statements in his books, especially the statement that "no one ever falls from Vaikuntha". So the idea that we are just dreaming that we fell is now inserted as the conclusion so that the "no one ever falls from Vaikuntha" can be rationalized. I'm really just regurgitating the ideas that Guruvani has put forth about this, but I'm also trying to put it all together for myself.

It seems that the Sleeper-Vadi theory has two distinct political objectives in ISKCON. One is to allow the GBC to save face due to the glaring contradictions in the OOP. The other objective is to weed out those who are not submissive to the GBC from ISKCON association. If one doesn't accept the Sleeper-Vadi theory then one is "disloyal to Prabhupada". Consequently the only solution is to oust those who are disloyal. This creates an "us and them" mentality and and helps social unification by creating a false enemy. Of course this is nothing new in ISKCON cirlces.

On another level the Sleeper-Vadi theory is a ploy by Drutakarma to inflate his own ego and solidify his position a one of the principle "intellectual" gurus to the GBC and ISKCON gurus. I've experienced this man a work, during the Ramesvara regime; he was one of the main tyrants behind the tyrant. His role was to create an ideology which justified the tyranny, part minister of GBC political correctness and part minister of propaganda. Back in the early 80's this mentality was described by Srila Sridhar Maharaja,

 

 

...[The]GBC committee resolution is recommendatory. But, to facilitate that he appointed some gentlemen. That does not mean that he has given everything within their fist, their whimsical fist. At present it is dollars, diplomacy and despotism in the name of devotion, dedication and divinity. God is within their fist, Krsna, and they think like that. But that it is the opposite they will have to think. So much pride: "Whatever we view, we'll dictate, and that cannot but be the opinion of Guru and Gauranga, Krsna." So, limited narrow views. So much so, don't go beyond our guru maharaja's books. His guru, other goswami's, no. Don't go. What is this? The natural advice should be, "Read others to support what is written by our gurudeva." By extensive study. Food, that is what our guru maharaja has said, to support that. Our expansion is necessary. Otherwise you won't be able to maintain your solidarity. This is defeatist mentality. It is not a dead thing, it is a progressive living thing.

[sevabhakta]

If you are going to utter criticism, might as well burn it out on the right target.

 

Those last 2 posts by Theist and Ghari are reflective of criticism. A critique of my behavior. But I guess I am no possible future meal ticket, but the Big Guns over in the hallowed halls of the GBC, better toe the line with them, one day they just might listen to you and give you a spot in the big show.

 

I actually think what he wrote was Ok, I just think that it is foolhardy to believe that disobedient disciples, forming a commitee, using edited scriptures are going to draw proper conclusions regarding all the philisophical controversies which continue to arise as a result of their lack of attention to what is important since time immemorial.

 

Now, I know that the Prabhupada village website CLAIMS that the mission statement of those who live there includes answering any and all disagreements using Srila Prabhupada's instructions as ultimate arbiter.

 

But in truth, that is not practiced there either.

 

In this world, what is said and what is done are often light years apart.

 

For the Iskcon "branch" of the sankirtana movement, those books which were to be the original and exclusive sourcebooks of practical knowledge were named clearly by Srlia Prabhupada. Until someone has comprehended the scientific philosophy therein, best to avoid taking piecemeal conclusions as springboards to studying the opinions of "other acaryas".

 

I will trust the health of the Iskcon movement with a hand-full of Bhakta's from any exile or camp who will rally and live with that principle as their center, and lament the health of Iskcon under the auspices of any career guru's who draw up resolutions to simulate the same activity.

 

Hare Krsna

[Beggar]

 

 

For the Iskcon "branch" of the sankirtana movement, those books which were to be the original and exclusive sourcebooks of practical knowledge were named clearly by Srlia Prabhupada. Until someone has comprehended the scientific philosophy therein, best to avoid taking piecemeal conclusions as springboards to studying the opinions of "other acaryas".

Hare Krsna

Srila Prabhupada told at one time that only himself and Srila Sridhar Mahararja were qualified to translate the Srimad Bhagavatam into English. Clearly if you take this and his remarks that he saw Srila Sridhar Maharaja as a siksa guru, would qualify Srila Sridhar Maharaja as one who has "comprehended the scientific philosophy" of Krsna Consciousness. Why is he an "other acarya" simply because he is not a formal member of the institution? Why should we live in the darkness of confusion that may hamper our progress towards comprehension or realization when we can accept divine guidance even though a committee of conditioned souls has instructed us to reject such guidance? Could it be for unity? Then how would unity for a bad thing be a good thing? An absurd proposal! In this way the ass-like Dhenukasuras will try to kill the Krsna Conception budding in our neophyte hearts as Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur has written in his Krsna Samhita.

[cbrahma]

Why keep resurrecting this controversy? I know Drutakarna. He is quite scholarly and very much favored by the ISKCON authorities. He is one of their most revered official sadhus. He has been commuted all over the world to argue against evolution, for one thing. But this doctrine (of fall down from the spiritual world) is rarely mentioned or aggressively proselytized. After all, what's in it for him, or ISKCON? More importantly what's in it for Guruvani, that he keeps harping on it?

I am of course completely disenchanted by the GBC and therefore ISKCON.

What that invisible cadre of political opportunists thinks is the least of my concerns and hardly counts in the grand spiritual scheme of things.

[suchandra]

 

Why keep resurrecting this controversy?

The very term "controversy" is surely a faux-pas word when claiming to present the teachings of vedic literature. If people are so ill-educated and baffled to present vedic conclusion in such a way that things are 100% clear they should be rejected immediately. Anyone creating the situation of "controversy" when it comes to properly present the teachings of the acharyas of the Brahma-Madhava-Gaudiya Sampradaya is actually a fool and rascal and should be rejected immediately.

But somehow it seems that this has become a fashion, to create fractions, camps and splinter groups. If this is the only thing what Westerners are able to accomplish - to use vedic knowledge to create unneccessarily differrent conclusions about the essence of vedic knowledge, they proof once more to be duskrtina, mudha, mayaya apahrta-jnanah or asuram bhavam asritah and do not recognize Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

[realist]

Such a complex topic which even Babaji avoids answering directly, yet we will risk all for our fancy in ridiculing our good brothers. This is not the cleverness of a wise man; such humility will not fall at Krsna's lotus feet.

[Guruvani]

 

More importantly what's in it for Guruvani, that he keeps harping on it?

 

 

What is in it for me?

Satisfaction.

Satisfaction of being able to deconstruct the fall-from-goloka sleepervadi siddhanta by going to the books fo Srila Prabhupada and finding the evidence that they are wrong.

 

I just get a little tickled everytime I find some new evidence that exposes the sleepervadi nonsense.

 

Otherwise, I don't associate with ANY camp at all and haven't for about 21 years.

 

I am a loner and I simply say it the way I see it.

 

I have only one loyaltly and that is to the truth.

[cbrahma]

 

The very term "controversy" is surely a faux-pas word when claiming to present the teachings of vedic literature. If people are so ill-educated and baffled to present vedic conclusion in such a way that things are 100% clear they should be rejected immediately. Anyone creating the situation of "controversy" when it comes to properly present the teachings of the acharyas of the Brahma-Madhava-Gaudiya Sampradaya is actually a fool and rascal and should be rejected immediately.

But somehow it seems that this has become a fashion, to create fractions, camps and splinter groups. If this is the only thing what Westerners are able to accomplish - to use vedic knowledge to create unneccessarily differrent conclusions about the essence of vedic knowledge, they proof once more to be duskrtina, mudha, mayaya apahrta-jnanah or asuram bhavam asritah and do not recognize Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

It has produced much controversy on this blog. So a topic of which controversy in an effect is by definition controversial. Why argue that point?

[cbrahma]

 

What is in it for me?

Satisfaction.

Satisfaction of being able to deconstruct the fall-from-goloka sleepervadi siddhanta by going to the books fo Srila Prabhupada and finding the evidence that they are wrong.

 

I just get a little tickled everytime I find some new evidence that exposes the sleepervadi nonsense.

 

Otherwise, I don't associate with ANY camp at all and haven't for about 21 years.

 

I am a loner and I simply say it the way I see it.

 

I have only one loyaltly and that is to the truth.

Their opinion doesn't warrant so much consideration. First off anybody who is in ISKCON will be summarily chastized if not kicked out for questioning the GBC magisterium. Anybody who isn't their institutional gumba isn't going to be much influenced by their opinion and so will not be misled.

In short - the controversy is moot.

[Guruvani]

 

Such a complex topic which even Babaji avoids answering directly, .

I think that is a false claim and a false conclusion.

There has been presented plenty of evidence from the Babaji in Jaiva Dharma on the jiva-tattva in support of the Gaudiya siddhanta on the origin of the jiva.

 

This is a strawman argument.

Make an unsubstantiated claim and them watch all the little toy soldiers fall in line.

 

This the typical tactic of persons who wants to win the debate at any cost, even at the cost of truth.

[Guruvani]

 

Their opinion doesn't warrant so much consideration. First off anybody who is in ISKCON will be summarily chastized if not kicked out for questioning the GBC magisterium. Anybody who isn't their institutional gumba isn't going to be much influenced by their opinion and so will not be misled.

In short - the controversy is moot.

 

Well, I guess we could all just hang out on the forum and talk about the weather, the president of Iran or Jesus?

 

I find the topic interesting.

It is a major issue that the ISKCON party-liners use to assault and attack all non-ISKCON parties and I personally think the issue is strategic for future generations to get a proper grasp of apart from the ISKCON propaganda.

[suchandra]

It has produced much controversy on this blog. So a topic of which controversy in an effect is by definition controversial. Why argue that point?

I don't argue but present facts, persons with perverted intelligence do not understand the actual purpose of Vedic knowledge. Those in actual knowledge of the Vedas never speak in that way.

[cbrahma]

 

Those in actual knowledge of the Vedas never speak in that way.

That's a little too open-ended. What way? I present the facts also. The topic produces controversy- that is a fact.

A topic that produces controversy is controversial. That is another fact.

So the Vedas ignore the facts?

[cbrahma]

 

Well, I guess we could all just hang out on the forum and talk about the weather, the president of Iran or Jesus?

 

I find the topic interesting.

It is a major issue that the ISKCON party-liners use to assault and attack all non-ISKCON parties and I personally think the issue is strategic for future generations to get a proper grasp of apart from the ISKCON propaganda.

Vaisnavism has unlimited topics to discuss. Topics that are not under the magisterial control of the GBC. Why obsess over the fall down, which after all has no impact on our spiritual life -which is about extricating ourselves from the material illusion. Or do you disagree with that also?

[Guruvani]

 

Vaisnavism has unlimited topics to discuss. Topics that are not under the magisterial control of the GBC. Why obsess over the fall down, which after all has no impact on our spiritual life -which is about extricating ourselves from the material illusion. Or do you disagree with that also?

 

Then start an interesting topic and see how long it lives on the forum.

The fall/origins topics get more hits than the other topics.

Obviously, many people find it interesting.

[cbrahma]

 

Then start an interesting topic and see how long it lives on the forum.

The fall/origins topics get more hits than the other topics.

Obviously, many people find it interesting.

Which is sensationalistic. Choose topics that will foment disagreement and offense. Like the yellow journalist papers.

[Guruvani]

 

Which is sensationalistic. Choose topics that will foment disagreement and offense. Like the yellow journalist papers.

 

The GBC inaugurated the debate when they commissioned Drutakarma to defeat the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada by showing that they preach Mayavada origins.

This is the issue that exposes the GBC and the ISKCON party-line as misfits and renegades of the Gaudiya tradition.

 

It is one of my favorite topics.

[suchandra]

 

The GBC inaugurated the debate when they commissioned Drutakarma to defeat the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada by showing that they preach Mayavada origins.

This is the issue that exposes the GBC and the ISKCON party-line as misfits and renegades of the Gaudiya tradition.

 

It is one of my favorite topics.

 

Prabhupada: "Just see how much atheist they are. Shameless atheist. Other atheists, they have got some shame. But these people are shameless. Shameless."

[cbrahma]

 

The GBC inaugurated the debate when they commissioned Drutakarma to defeat the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada by showing that they preach Mayavada origins.

This is the issue that exposes the GBC and the ISKCON party-line as misfits and renegades of the Gaudiya tradition.

 

It is one of my favorite topics.

There are many issues that 'expose' the GBC. It doesn't take much to expose that corrupt star chamber. Just scratch the surface of their carefully constructed officialese and bureaucracy and the stench of even criminal activities quickly rises. Most Prabhupada disciples know this, whether they are willing to admit it or not.