Appreciating the senior devotees : disciples of Srila Prabhupada

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I see how my comments could be misconstrued. I found no fault with *you* Bhaktajan Prabhu.

 

I saw Jatayu Prabhu patting himself on the back along the lines of Hari Sauri Prabhu always referring to how humble he (Hari Sauri Prabhu) is.

 

In Jatayu Prabhu's letter (perhaps I should re-read it and point out specifics, but that is a wasted effort, no?), I see some sincerity, but I also see some pride. He says he was foolish when he was "junior", but, now that he is "senior", blah, blah, blah.

 

I've been around this philosophy for 34.5 years (and this body will be 35 next month), but I feel like I've yet to get off the starting line.

 

See how humble I am?

 

 

Dear Prabhu,

ys,

Bhaktajan

Re: There is no contradiction:

". . . Vedic principles are accepted as axiomatic truth, for there cannot be any mistake. That is acceptance. For instance, in ffice:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">India</st1:place></st1:country-region> cow dung is accepted as pure, and yet cow dung is the stool of an animal. In one place you’ll find the Vedic injunction that if you touch stool, you have to take a bath immediately. But in another place it is said that the stool of a cow is pure. If you smear cow dung in an impure place, that place becomes pure. With our ordinary sense we can argue, “This is contradictory.” Actually, it is contradictory from the ordinary point of view, but it is not false. It is fact. In <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Calcutta</st1:place></st1:city>, a very prominent scientist and doctor analyzed cow dung and found that it contains all antiseptic properties.

In <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">India</st1:place></st1:country-region> if one person tells another, “You must do this,” the other party may say, “What do you mean? Is this a Vedic injunction, that I have to follow you without any argument?” Vedic injunctions cannot be interpreted. But ultimately, if you carefully study why these injunctions are there, you will find that they are all correct. . . ." [srila Prabhupada, 'Introduction'—Sri Isopanisad].

[theist]

 

I see how my comments could be misconstrued. I found no fault with *you* Bhaktajan Prabhu.

 

I saw Jatayu Prabhu patting himself on the back along the lines of Hari Sauri Prabhu always referring to how humble he (Hari Sauri Prabhu) is.

 

In Jatayu Prabhu's letter (perhaps I should re-read it and point out specifics, but that is a wasted effort, no?), I see some sincerity, but I also see some pride. He says he was foolish when he was "junior", but, now that he is "senior", blah, blah, blah.

 

I've been around this philosophy for 34.5 years (and this body will be 35 next month), but I feel like I've yet to get off the starting line.

See how humble I am?

 

Humility doesn't normal just get bestowed on one although Krsna can do what He wants. It begins with recognition and admittance of the false pride that resides within us. Then we have to deal with it the best we can by curbing it's expression and trying to replace it with humility which in the beginning is like a child trying to walk. When a child starts it's first clumsy steps all the adults are joyful and no one would make the comment, "yeah but the kid is still real clumsy... his walking ain't much." Only another slightly older child would say such a thing out of envy for the attention to first stepper is getting.

 

Now some people get so caught up in trying to sound humble that they can make others nauseous at which point it is only self defense to "humbly" tell them to STFU!

 

But beyond that extreme let us see what we see and take note for our own development by seeing if we have the same fault in our nature and otherwise remain silent allowing our brothers and sisters to grow into spiritual life.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

But beyond that extreme let us see what we see and take note for our own development by seeing if we have the same fault in our nature and otherwise remain silent allowing our brothers and sisters to grow into spiritual life.

 

You're right. It certainly is not very humble to point out someone else's lack of humility.

[Beggar]

 

You're right. It certainly is not very humble to point out someone else's lack of humility.

[theist]

 

You're right. It certainly is not very humble to point out someone else's lack of humility.

 

Generally yes. Depends on the relationship. Sometimes it takes someone we are associating with daily in a friendly and frank manner, to tell us we have a spinach leaf on our tooth. I walked around a one day last year talking to people, going to the bank, doing other shopping and didn't know i had a with a green spinach leaf stuck on my front tooth. I looked like Jethro just steppin' out of the briar patch. No one said anything until I got home and my neighbor said hey you got a leaf stuck on your tooth. He wasn't trying to put me down but rather to inform me. Even though not close friends based on so many past conversations he was looking out for me. Isn't this part of what it means for beginning spiritualists to associate with one another?

 

One friend in Hawaii years back told me straight out "You are a jerk." LOL. I was stunned. But it caused me to really look at what caused him to say that and to try to improve. As everyone has noticed that is still a work in progress. My jerkiness is deeply rooted.

[bhaktajan]

RE: Appreciating the senior devotees : disciples of Srila Prabhupada -- By Jatayu dasa

 

Let me clarify what I've been posting:

 

Confess your past shamefull actions so I can be amused be them!

 

I think it is theraputic to reveal [with some self-editing] the guilt-ridden things that we've done---there is no fault to be found in your past deeds [except the lawfully illegal things]. I have so many regrets--all due to actions I've done due to choices I made during my youth within the Hare Krishna Movement.

 

If you've no stories to reveal about actions you've done with regret in Hare Krishna Movement--then you've probably not served anyone within the sanga for any considerable time. Familaraity breeds contempt --and also embarassing, self-effacing stories too.

I will reveal my own --but they're sooooo heavy that I'd like to see some tame ones before I bring in the heavy ones.

ys,

Bhaktajan

 

"I'm an old cow hand from Vrindavan land, . . . "

[realist]

 

You know realist their are many on this board who view Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers and even their disciples as their own gurus both diksa and siksa and it is really offensive of you to come in the midst of them are stones towards their teachers. It even offends me who has no particular allegiance to any one teacher. I see it simply as offending friends of God. You are not fooling anyone here into believing you are a "100% Prabhupada Man" by criticizing his Godbrothers. We here have all seen through that thin smokescreen of long long ago. You want to be a Prabhupada man. Then love Krsna. Serve Krsna. Give Krsna to others.

Let us see if you can inspire as many as Sridhar Maharaja has done.

 

Srila Prabhupada is all I know; he has saved me from immanent death and HELL (real hell is to forget Prabhupada and Krishna). And being his disciple DOES make me a Prabhupada man, YOU and no one else can EVER take that way from me, YOU and others can ridicule me and find all the faults in me you like because there are plenty of them, this body has committed just about EVERY sinful activity you can think of. My post I stand by and make absolutely NO apologies for. What you call offensive I call truthful and honesty. The fact is, Srila Prabhupada WAS not happy with the way he was treated by his Godbrothers, why should I say anything different just to be the nice guy and suck up to everyone? Hare Krishna

[AncientMariner]

 

Srila Prabhupada is all I know; he has saved me from immanent death and HELL (real hell is to forget Prabhupada and Krishna). And being his disciple DOES make me a Prabhupada man, YOU and no one else can EVER take that way from me, YOU and others can ridicule me and find all the faults in me you like because there are plenty of them, this body has committed just about EVERY sinful activity you can think of. My post I stand by and make absolutely NO apologies for. What you call offensive I call truthful and honesty. The fact is, Srila Prabhupada WAS not happy with the way he was treated by his Godbrothers, why should I say anything different just to be the nice guy and suck up to everyone? Hare Krishna

 

I can respect that viewpoint personally because I have read the quotes where Prabhupada seemed to have some misgivings with his Godbrothers. This is not to say I am at all qualified to make any personal judgements of his Godbrothers or anything like that and I wouldn't anyways because I don't know them and have never met them and apparently Prabhupada also said a lot of good things about his Godbrothers. Like you I am particularly attached to Prabhupada because his efforts were so epically heroic that noone else compares to him in my book but thats just me and I don't mean that as any sort of condemnation of his Godbrothers as apparently they have had many great victories themselves.

[realist]

Good points you have made, thank you for your undertanding

[Beggar]

 

The fact is, Srila Prabhupada WAS not happy with the way he was treated by his Godbrothers, why should I say anything different just to be the nice guy and suck up to everyone? Hare Krishna

Srila Prabhupada experienced and was involved with a very long history with fellow disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada. He originally came into contact with his Prabhupada through persons who were his Prabhupada's disciples. Later once he began serving his Prabhupada, he generally was working in conjuction with those who were to become his godbrothers after his diksa. Most of us know about the history of the break up of the Gaudiya Math after his Prabhupada entered nitya lila. It was not a very happy story. Our Prabhupada saw how this unfolded. First he saw the seeds of what was to happen and then he saw them fructify and cause distruction. Our Prabhupada knew that very likely his institution would suffer a similar fate but out of compassion for his disciples, like a kindly grandfather he wanted to spare them such suffering. He certainly took it as duty to protect us, especially almost all of us were very neophyte and of a very young age. It is a fact that some of his godbrothers were envious of his successful preaching in the West and could not appreciate the miracles that he was performing. Yet he had many who were fellow disciples of his Prabhupada, and all were not envious. But during his brief twelve year lila of spreading Krsna Consciousness around the world, time was of the essence and for him, their wasn't a drop to waste. It is a fact that because of these factors Prabhupada would sometime generalize about his godbrothers. But if we examine his letters, some conversations, some statements in his books, then we find quite opposite statements especially about certain individuals. Yes individuals! We are supposed to be personalists and see individuality yet instead some thirty years later we see some big boogey man called "the godbrothers" Such a mentality at this stage some thirty years out is both extremely childish, simplistic and hardhearted to the extreme. The is all magnified tenfold if you consider the Zonal Acarya Fiasco, a virtual coup de' tat, that took place immediately upon Prabhupada's disappearance. The ultimate result of that fiasco was numerous schisms and scandals and in many ways ISKCON has suffered a similar if not worse fate that the Gaudiya Math. Yet because of a simplistic, close-minded, brutish mentality that masquerades as loyalty to Prabhupada an entire class of neophyte ruffians take it upon themselves to take pot shots at "the godbrothers". When ones heart is steel caged then he/she can commit all kind of offenses to advanced Vaisnavas who are either still on this earth, or those who have passed on to be in nitya lila and hardly notice any effect. This is the effect of aparadha upon aparadha upon aparadha. So Realist go on with your delusions, that Srila Prabhupada will be pleased with such a bull in the china shop mentality in the land of devotion. Go on with your impertinence to criticize high elders while wallowing in the muck of imitative devotion. Just take it somewhere else where a hellish mentality will be appreciated.

[realist]

 

Chanting Hare Krishna is the only remedy for this age of Kali

 

[realist]

 

All glorious to the beautiful Srimad Bhagavatam

 

[realist]

If only Sridha Maharaj never said we came from a plain sheet of consciousness from the Brahmajyoti ?? Anyway what part of the states are you from or are you from somewhere else. At least we have one thing in common - We love the Srimad Bhagavatam

[melvin]

This thread is filled with negative vibrations.It`s about to explode. 10.9.8.7.6.5.4.3.2.1...Boooommm!!!

[realist]

 

This thread is filled with negative vibrations.It`s about to explode. 10.9.8.7.6.5.4.3.2.1...Boooommm!!!

 

Hatred paralyzes life; Krishna Consciousness releases it. Hatred confuses life; Krishna Consciousness harmonizes it. Hatred darkens life; Krishna Consciosness illuminates it

Let no man pull you low enough to hate him.

 

Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true

 

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.

 

I submit to you that if a man hasn't discovered something he will die for, he isn't fit to live.

 

Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men

 

The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

 

An individual has not started living until he can rise above the narrow confines of his individualistic concerns to the broader concerns of helping others become Krishna Conscious.

 

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only the light of Krishna Comsciousness can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only loving selfless devotion to Krishna can do that.

 

Every man must decide whether he will walk in the light of Krishna Consciousness, or in the darkness of destructive selfishness.

 

He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.

 

ISKCON's History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this pioneering period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad devotees, but the appalling silence of the good devotees.

[gHari]

Nitai-Gaura

[Beggar]

 

"The constituent particles, in the form of pencils of effulgence of Maha-Visnu are manifest as the individual souls (jivas)." (Brahma-samhita 10, purp.)

Srila Sridhar Maharaj is simply repeating what he has heard and read from his guru and param guru and what is in sastra. He then digested it through realization and gave it out in an eloquent manner, not just "vommiting" it back. Sridhar Maharaj,

There are two classes of souls, jivas, who come into this world. One class comes from the spiritual Vaikuntha planets by the necessity of nitya-lila, the eternal pastimes of Krsna. Another comes by constitutional necessity. The brahmajyoti, the nondifferentiated marginal plane, is the source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of nondifferentiated character. The rays of the Lord's transcendental body are known as the brahmajyoti, and a pencil of a ray of the brahmajyoti is the jiva. The jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms.

Exalted souls such as Srila Sridhar Maharaj should not be fair game for criticism from neophyte upstarts laboring under all kinds of delusions.

To hate something so obnoxious and repulsive to Gaudiya Vaisnavism is a good thing. There will be no compromise on this point.

[melvin]

For bad men to thrive the good do nothing.

People help those who help themselves.

Damn if you do damn if you don`t(Catch 22)

Something always goes wrong even though you tried so hard for it not to go wrong( Murphy`s Law)

In short, don`t depend too much on the belief Krsna will save you.Even if you think you have already invested so much of your time and resources trying to be Krsna conscious.

God knows if your relationship and dealings with him are conditional or unconditional. We can`t cheat God but we can cheat the others.Hahaha!

[Beggar]

<center>

 

 

 

 

Illuminations on Jiva-tattva </center> 10-Gaudiya acaryas support the no-fall siddhanta.

We have heard the siddhanta that no one falls from the spiritual world personally from many many highly exaulted Gaudiya Vaisnava acaryas, in addition to our own Guru Maharaja, Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada [the conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world: Bhag. 3.16.26 purp], such as Srila Sridhara Maharaja, recognized by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura as sastra-nipuna (scriptural genious), Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Maharaja, chief editor of the daily spiritual newspaper Nadiya Prakasa during and after the time of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, Srila Bhakti Vallabh Tirtha Maharaja, the successor acarya of Shri Chaitanya Gaudiya Matha of Madhava Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja, a leading disciple of Bhakti Prajñana Kesava Maharaja, the sannyasa guru of Srila Prabhupada, and many others. And they are repeating what they learned from their Guru Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and his direct disciples. It is highly unlikely that they would say something different than that which was taught to them by their Guru Maharaja. These aforementioned Vaisnavas are seniormost in terms of their realizations and spiritual standing, so their knowledge and realization should not be completely disregarded. Additionally, our dear godbrother, the late Gour Govinda Maharaja, was highly learned in siddhanta and scrutinizingly studied the commentaries of our acaryas, especially Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. He was known for his firm stand with the "No Fall" siddhanta. And we have living examples of godbrothers fixed in strong philosophical understanding in Sripad B. G. Narasingha Maharaja and Sripad B. V. Tripurari Maharaja. Here we do not see one iota of doubt as to the siddhanta.

Because Srila Prabhupada did make statements in support of both sides of this issue, it is very confusing to many of his disciples. A preaching strategy does however eliminate all contradictions and is not at all out of line with Srila Prabhupada's mood. Many examples of a preaching strategy by Srila Prabhupada can be found, as shown in section eight above. Many verses in this presentation were collected by disciples of Gour Govinda Maharaja in their concern to set matters straight.

Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Goswami Maharaja, seniormost Gaudiya Vaishnava on the planet, both by age and spiritual assets, has provided detailed and substantial explanations of the no-fall siddhanta.

Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayan Maharaja has written in Pinnacle of Devotion, page 15,

 

Being in Krsna's association, any spiritual being, whether

kayavyuha,

(expansion),

sadhana-siddha,

or

nitya-siddha,

will

never, never, never

take a material body in this world. They will never be opposed to Krsna. Because there is no

maya

in Goloka Vrndavana they can never forget Krsna. Only Yogamaya is there, helping the devotees to increase their

prema

for Krsna by arranging an opportunity for them to serve Him. Because there is no chance of falling from Goloka Vrndavana,

siddha bhumi,

no conditioned soul has ever come from there. Rather, they have come from the

tatastha

line, from Karanodakasayi Visnu.

 

Srila Bhakti Vallabh Tirtha Maharaja, the successor acarya of Shri Chaitanya Gaudiya Matha of Bhakti Dayita Madhava Maharaja, did not hesitate to state: "No." [The residents of the spiritual world do not fall down.] "It is very clearly written that the source of the jivas is the tatastha-sakti."

Srila Prabhupada writes similarly,

 

According to

Visnu Purana, Bhagavad-gita

and all other Vedic literatures, the living entities are generated from the

tatastha

energy of the Lord, and thus they are always the energy of the Lord and are not the energetic. (

Bhag

. 3.7.9, purp.) [

see also section four

]

 

Visvambhara Goswami, the late and highly respected Radha-ramana goswami, [Vrndavana, India] stated with much astonishment:

 

They (Iskcon devotees) think like that? That the Lord's eternal associates fall from the spiritual world? I cannot believe it.

 

The entire Gaudiya mission of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura is not in doubt as to the conclusions in this regard, having heard it from their Founder-acarya. Nor are the many many scholars in doubt, who have stated that certain devotees do not even know their own siddhanta. We think that this should be taken as an indication that perhaps the forcibly legislated conclusions of these few devotees may be wrong.

We also present herein the statements of prominent acaryas and other authorities from sampradayas outside of our own Gaudiya sampradaya, who all clearly and emphatically state that the jivas of this material world have never been in the spiritual world—have not fallen from lila with the Lord:

Sri Pejwara Swami of Pejwara Mutt, Udupi (Renowned acarya of Madhva sampradaya):

 

The siddhanta is clear. How can there be any misunderstanding; to think that the Lord's associates have fallen?

 

Laksmi Tathachar, Director, Academy of Sanskrit Research, Melkote, Karnartaka, (respected member of Ramanuja sampradaya)

 

It is not possible that those associating with Lord Visnu in Vaikuntha could ever fall down.

 

 

[Vigraha]

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Beggar

Prabhupada has said, "we are already liberated". Unfortunately it doesn't seem easy to balance all these concepts with out jumping into the deep end of the pool. In reality the deep end is on both sides of the pool - duality.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Srila Prabhupada says this because he explains,we only think, imagine or dream we are away from Krishna. Actually we don't go anywhere, we are never away from Krishna, just like the sun doesn't go anywhere when the cloud covers it. The sun is always there just like our nitya-siddha body is always there.

 

Duality only exists when we reject Krishna, duality can only exist in the material world. We are one with ourselves serving Krishna but as soon as we reject Krishna, then their is duality - nitya-siddha and nitya baddha.

 

As long as we are Krishna conscious, then there is no nitya baddha consciousness, just like when we clearly see the sun there is no cloud cover, or when their is light, there is no posibility for darkness.

 

Don't get me wrong I rspect Sridhar Swami as an advanced Vaishnava and anyone who follows his teachings will achieve Godhead. In the end I don't think it really matters where we came from