what exactly is action in krishna consciousness?

[Redsox]

Read the Big book BG recently.

Still confused about what exactly it means when it says "without attachment, a liberated soul works in Krishna consciousness" .

[Murali_Mohan_das]

We do what we do, but we must offer up the results of everything we do to Krishna. If we don't think Krishna will accept our offering, then, perhaps the action is not something worthy of doing.

 

The key is that everything is in the hands of God. *His* Will be done, not ours. If it is the Will of the Lord, then we will be successful. If not, then perhaps it was just our own minute will which were were following.

 

In any case, attachment (even attachment to the results of our "spiritual" endeavors) is the root of all misery.

[gHari]

 

A picture is worth a thousand words, and a play or yet a flamboyant Krsna pastime is worth even more. The chariot is the body and it is drawn by the horse senses. The driving mechanism (the reins) is the mind. And the mind is controlled by the intelligence. Arjuna is fortunate to have his chariot driven by Lord Krishna directly. When we are conscious of Krsna, when we give Him the reins, then buddhi-yogam (divine inspiration from God - see BG 10.10) fills our intelligence, which controls the mind, which controls the senses, which lead the body. It's like that. The soul rides in the chariot of the body like that. Someone not conscious of Krsna will be carried away by his uncontrolled senses much like a chariot is dragged here and there by wild horses. Here is some more good horse sense:

SB 7.15.41

 

Transcendentalists who are advanced in knowledge compare the body, which is made by the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, to a chariot. The senses are like the horses; the mind, the master of the senses, is like the reins; the objects of the senses are the destinations; intelligence is the chariot driver; and consciousness, which spreads throughout the body, is the cause of bondage in this material world. [

NOTE: The purport

is very relevant to this discussion]

 

 

 

SB 11.20.21

 

An expert horseman, desiring to tame a headstrong horse, first lets the horse have his way for a moment and then, pulling the reins, gradually places the horse on the desired path. Similarly, the supreme yoga process is that by which one carefully observes the movements and desires of the mind and gradually brings them under full control.

 

 

 

 

 

Early Prabhupada Gem

 

To be cent percent engaged in the transcendental service of the Lord is the real process of controlling the senses from the attraction of vices. The different senses of a man are different strategic positions of the enemy vice, which takes us to the miseries of life. The Karmis or the fruitive workers who have been described as the Mudhas or the foolish ignorant, is cent percent engaged in the matter of sense gratification. Because the citadel of Vices with soldiers like desire, anger and avarice is the mind, sense gratification means to follow the dictation of Mr. Vice. The Jnanins or the mental speculator philosopher are thousand and more better than the Karmis because they can understand the real position of sense gratification and therefore try to employ senses in a subtle form restraining the gross activities of the senses. By this action Mr. Vice becomes surrounded and he is stopped for the time being. The Yogins want to control the senses or to make direct attack on Mr. Vice and therefore the Yogins are thousand times better than the Jnanins. The Muktas or the liberated souls are still thousand times better than the jnanins and the yogins for the Muktas are completely free from the attack of Mr. Vice. And above the Muktas are situated the pure Bhaktas who not only drive away Mr. Vice from the citadels of senses but also engage the seats of senses for occupation by the Supreme Lord. The king of the senses is the master mind. Senses are like the horse and the mind is the coach man who directs the sense.

The Bhaktas therefore first of all depose Mr. Vice, the coach man from the seat of the mind and place the lotus feet of Shri Krishna on the coach. When Shri Krishna becomes the coachman of the chariot of Arjuna there is no fear of the attack by Mr. Vice called by the name Duryodhana

. The Bhagwat Geeta confirms this as follows in the words of Sanjaya, "where there is the master of all energies Shri Krishna and where there is a master devotee like Arjuna, undoubtedly there are blessings, victories, influence and morality."

 

 

 

Conversation

 

PrabhupAda: In BhAgavata it is very figuratively described that we have got this body and the different parts. Just like Arjuna is sitting on the chariot. There is chariot driver, there are horses, reins. There is field, and the arrow, and the bow. They have been figuratively. So this can be used for killing the enemies of our KRSNa Consciousness and then give up all this paraphernalia, chariot, we... Just like after fighting, only victory, then you kill them. And similarly this body is there, the mind is there, the senses are there. So utilize it for conquering over this material existence. And then give up this body and go back to home.

 

 

TamAla KRSNa: Does the devotee, I mean just like you are always enthusing us to push on...

 

 

PrabhupAda: That is sharpening your weapons. That is also described. By serving the spiritual master, you keep your weapon always sharpened. And then take help from KRSNa, the words of spiritual master sharpen weapon and yasya prasAdad bhagavata..., and the spiritual master is happy, then KRSNa immediately will help. He gives you strength. Suppose you got a sword, sharpened sword. But if you have no strength, what will you do with the sword? KRSNa will give you the strength, how to fight and kill the enemies. Everything is described. Therefore Caitanya MahAprabhu (said) guru-kRSNa-kRpAya, make your weapon sharpened by the instruction of the spiritual master and then KRSNa will give you strength, you'll be able to conquer. This figurative explanation I think last night I did. Here is a verse, acyuta bala, acyuta bala. Is PuSTa KRSNa here?

 

 

Hari-zauri: (calls out) PuSTa KRSNa?

 

 

PrabhupAda: We are soldiers of KRSNa, servants of Arjuna. Simply you will have to act accordingly, then you will finish up enemies. They have no power, although their number is hundred times. Just like Kurus and the PANDavas. They have no power, yatra yogezvaraH kRSNaH.

Keep KRSNa in your side, then everything will be successful

. Tatra zrIr vijayo bhUtiH.

 

 

 

CC Madhya 9.98-102

 

The brAhmaNa replied, "I am illiterate and therefore do not know the meaning of the words. Sometimes I read the Bhagavad-gItA correctly and sometimes incorrectly, but in any case I am doing this in compliance with the orders of my spiritual master."

 

 

The brAhmaNa continued, "Actually I only see Lord KRSNa sitting on a chariot as Arjuna's charioteer. Taking the reins in His hands, He appears very beautiful and blackish.

 

 

"While seeing Lord KRSNa sitting in a chariot and instructing Arjuna, I am filled with ecstatic happiness.

 

 

"As long as I read the Bhagavad-gItA, I simply see the Lord's beautiful features. It is for this reason that I am reading the Bhagavad-gItA, and my mind cannot be distracted from this."

 

 

SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu told the brAhmaNa, "Indeed, you are an authority in the reading of the Bhagavad-gItA. Whatever you know constitutes the real purport of the Bhagavad-gItA."

 

 

 

CC Antya 15.14-18

 

SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu said, "‘Though the hearts of the gopIs are like high-standing hills, they are inundated by the waves of the nectarean ocean of KRSNa's beauty. His sweet voice enters their ears and gives them transcendental bliss, the touch of His body is cooler than millions and millions of moons together, and the nectar of His bodily fragrance overfloods the entire world. O My dear friend, that KRSNa, who is the son of Nanda MahArAja and whose lips are exactly like nectar, is attracting My five senses by force.'

 

 

"My mind is just like a single horse being ridden by the five senses of perception, headed by sight. Each of My senses wants to ride that horse, and thus they pull My mind in five directions simultaneously. In what direction will it go? If they all pull at one time, certainly the horse will lose its life. How can I tolerate this atrocity?

 

 

"Lord SrI KRSNa's beauty, the sound of His words and the vibration of His flute, His touch, His fragrance and the taste of His lips are full of an indescribable sweetness. When all these features attract My five senses at once, My senses all ride together on the single horse of My mind but want to go in five different directions.

 

 

"O My dear friend, please hear the cause of My misery. My five senses are actually extravagant rogues. They know very well that KRSNa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but they still want to plunder KRSNa's property.

 

 

"My dear friend, if you say, ‘Just try to control Your senses,' what shall I say? I cannot become angry at My senses. Is it their fault? KRSNa's beauty, sound, touch, fragrance and taste are by nature extremely attractive. These five features are attracting My senses, and each wants to drag My mind in a different direction. In this way the life of My mind is in great danger, just like a horse ridden in five directions at once. Thus I am also in danger of dying.

 

[Redsox]

How do the three modes of material nature play into this?

[gHari]

Basically jivas gradually rise from the mode of ignorance into passion, then into goodness. After that they go beyond the three modes, nirguna - beyond the gunas, the brahma-bhUta platform. Lord Krishna explained to Arjuna that through bhakti-yoga the jiva becomes no longer conditioned by material nature: http://vedabase.net/bg/14/26/en . Their motivation now comes directly from the transcendental sphere. Krsna concludes: http://vedabase.net/bg/18/55/en

[Redsox]

To transcend three modes, we need to be merged with the mode of goodness?

[gHari]

Bob: Are the devotees beyond accumulating karma? These devotees--do they feel karma? Do they work in these modes? Are they in the mode of goodness?

SrIla PrabhupAda: They are above goodness! Suddha-sattva. The devotees are not in this material world. They are in the spiritual world. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gItA:

 

mAM ca yo 'vyabhicAreNa

bhakti-yogena sevate

sa guNAn samatItyaitAn

brahma-bhUyAya kalpate

[bg. 14.26]

 

["One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstances, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman."] Devotees are neither in goodness, passion nor ignorance. They are transcendental to all these qualities.

 

 

http://vedabase.net/sb/1/2/19/en

 

http://vedabase.net/sb/3/4/31/en

 

http://vedabase.net/sb/3/15/15/en

 

http://vedabase.net/sb/7/15/25/en

 

http://vedabase.net/sb/9/19/25/en

 

From Renunciation Through Wisdom

In the Bhagavad-gItA Lord KRSNa says:

 

prakRteH kriyamANAni

guNaiH karmANi sarvazaH

ahaGkAra-vimUDhAtmA

kartAham iti manyate

[bg. 3.27]

 

The spirit soul bewildered by the influence of false ego thinks himself the doer of activities that are in actuality carried out by the three modes of material nature.

 

Success in any activity depends on five essential factors: the place, the doer, the tools or senses, the endeavor, and finally the sanction of the Supreme Lord. Of these, the Supreme Lord's blessing is the most important. This sanction is enacted through the Supreme Lord's favorable supervision of His material energy, for it is by the Lord's will that material nature acts. <B>Material nature acts according to one's consciousness: when the living entity is under the influence of the three modes of nature, his actions are conducted by the Lord's external energy, the material nature. But when he is in transcendental coonsciousness, the zuddha-sattva state, his actions are conducted by the Lord's internal, spiritual potency. The living entity can choose to have his activities conducted by either the Lord's external energy or His internal energy. This is the extent of the jIva's minute independence.</b>

 

 

The Journey of Self-Discovery

SrIla PrabhupAda: But moral goodness is not enough, because simple morality will not satisfy the soul. One has to go above morality--to KRSNa consciousness. Of course, in this material world morality is taken as the highest principle, but there is another platform, which is called the transcendental (vAsudeva) platform. Man's highest perfection is on that platform, and this is confirmed in SrImad-BhAgavatam. However, because Western philosophers have no information of the vAsudeva platform, they consider the material mode of goodness to be the highest perfection and the end of morality. But in this world even moral goodness is infected by the lower modes of ignorance and passion. You cannot find pure goodness (zuddha-sattva) in this material world, for pure goodness is the transcendental platform. To come to the platform of pure goodness, which is the ideal, one has to undergo austerities (tapasA brahmacaryeNa zamena ca damena ca [sB 6.1.13]). One has to practice celibacy and control the mind and senses. If he has money, he should distribute it in charity. Also, one should always be very clean. In this way one can rise to the platform of pure goodness.

 

There is another process for coming to the platform of pure goodness--and that is KRSNa consciousness. If one becomes KRSNa conscious, all the good qualities automatically develop in him. Automatically he leads a life of celibacy, controls his mind and senses, and has a charitable disposition. In this age of Kali, people cannot possibly be trained to engage in austerity. Formerly, a brahmacArI [celibate student] would undergo austere training. Even though he might be from a royal or learned family, a brahmacArI would humble himself and serve the spiritual master as a menial servant. He would immediately do whatever the spiritual master ordered. The brahmacArI would beg alms from door to door and bring them to the spiritual master, claiming nothing for himself. Whatever he earned he would give to the spiritual master, because the spiritual master would not spoil the money by spending it for sense gratification--he would use it for KRSNa. This is austerity. The brahmacArI would also observe celibacy, and because he followed the directions of the spiritual master, his mind and senses were controlled.

 

Today, however, this austerity is very difficult to follow, so SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu has given the process of taking to KRSNa consciousness directly. In this case, one need simply chant Hare KRSNa, Hare KRSNa, KRSNa KRSNa, Hare Hare/ Hare RAma, Hare RAma, RAma RAma, Hare Hare and follow the regulative principles given by the spiritual master. Then one immediately rises to the platform of pure goodness.

 

Lecture Summary

Therefore bhakti means karma-jJAna-anAvRtam. AnyAbhilaSitA-zUnyaM jJAna-karmAdy-anAvRtam [brs. 1.1.11]. Don't try to approach God with your so-called speculative knowledge and fruitive activities, as people are trying to do. It is not possible. You may, by such activities, you can come to the platform of this sattva-guNa, sattva-guNa. But that is also guNa. You remain saguNa. You are not nirguNa. But you require to be nirguNa. That is bhakti. If you remain saguNa, you may come to the platform of sattva-guNa, the brahminical platform--satyaM zamaH damaH titikSA Arjavam, jJAnaM vijJAnam Astikyam. That is better platform to understand. SthitaM sattve prasIdati. You can understand, you can get light of the spiritual world, by sattva-guNa. But you have to surpass the sattva-guNa. That is called zuddha-sattva, untinted, without any tinge of these rajo-guNa and tamo-guNa. In the material world you may be situated on the brahminical qualification, sattva-guNa, but there is chance of being infected by the rajo-guNa and tamo-guNa. Therefore it is not zuddha-sattva, pure sattva. So you have to come to the platform of pure sattva-guNa. SattvaM vizuddhaM vasudeva-zabditam. That pure sattva, pure sattva-guNa, mode of goodness, is called vasudeva, and Vasudeva he gives birth to VAsudeva, KRSNa. So when you come to that platform, then you will be able to give birth to VAsudeva. That means you will meet VAsudeva. zuddha-sattva. SattvaM vizuddhaM vasudeva-zabditam. This is the process.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Pure nectar, gHari Prabhu!! Thanks for breaking out the good stuff!

 

 

Lecture Summary

Therefore bhakti means karma-jJAna-anAvRtam. AnyAbhilaSitA-zUnyaM jJAna-karmAdy-anAvRtam [brs. 1.1.11]. Don't try to approach God with your so-called speculative knowledge and fruitive activities, as people are trying to do. It is not possible. You may, by such activities, you can come to the platform of this sattva-guNa, sattva-guNa. But that is also guNa. You remain saguNa. You are not nirguNa. But you require to be nirguNa. That is bhakti. If you remain saguNa, you may come to the platform of sattva-guNa, the brahminical platform--satyaM zamaH damaH titikSA Arjavam, jJAnaM vijJAnam Astikyam. That is better platform to understand. SthitaM sattve prasIdati. You can understand, you can get light of the spiritual world, by sattva-guNa. But you have to surpass the sattva-guNa. That is called zuddha-sattva, untinted, without any tinge of these rajo-guNa and tamo-guNa. In the material world you may be situated on the brahminical qualification, sattva-guNa, but there is chance of being infected by the rajo-guNa and tamo-guNa. Therefore it is not zuddha-sattva, pure sattva. So you have to come to the platform of pure sattva-guNa. SattvaM vizuddhaM vasudeva-zabditam. That pure sattva, pure sattva-guNa, mode of goodness, is called vasudeva, and Vasudeva he gives birth to VAsudeva, KRSNa. So when you come to that platform, then you will be able to give birth to VAsudeva. That means you will meet VAsudeva. zuddha-sattva. SattvaM vizuddhaM vasudeva-zabditam. This is the process.

[Redsox]

 

The devotees are not in this material world. They are in the spiritual world. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gItA:

 

So everyone who is in this world is not a devotee?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

So everyone who is in this world is not a devotee?

 

The Spiritual World is a state of consciousness, not a place as we know it.

 

When the Lord and His associates descend to this world, they bring the Spiritual World with them. A devotee is always in the Spiritual Sky, even if their "material" (for the devotee's body is not considered to be material) body is located in Hoboken, New Jersey.

[Beggar]

 

The Spiritual World is a state of consciousness, not a place as we know it.

 

When the Lord and His associates descend to this world, they bring the Spiritual World with them. A devotee is always in the Spiritual Sky, even if their "material" (for the devotee's body is not considered to be material) body is located in Hoboken, New Jersey.

 

How are you defining "devotee" in this context?

[Guruvani]

 

The Spiritual World is a state of consciousness, not a place as we know it.

 

I would prefer to say that it is a place that is attained by a state of consciousness.

 

We don't create the spiritual world by our consciousness.

We enter the spiritual world when consciousness is compatible.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

How are you defining "devotee" in this context?

 

Shall I say "pure devotee" (is there really any other kind?)?

 

Why are you splitting hairs?

[Beggar]

 

Shall I say "pure devotee" (is there really any other kind?)?

 

Why are you splitting hairs?

Because to say that the only kind of devotee or bhakta is a pure devotee or suddha bhakta is true only from the absolute angle of vision. The sastra also describe mixed devotion like that mixed with karma and jnana. In Caitanya Caritamrta its described how Mahaprabhu, after taking sannyasa was "running towards" Vrndavana. Since Mahaprahu was in ecstatic trance the devotees including Nityananda Prabhu steered Him back towards Santipura, although the Lord wanted to go to Vrndavana. When he came upon the Ganges they told Him that it was the Yamuna to placate him.

Sridhar Maharaj,

 

Just before Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu arrived there on the banks of the Ganges, Nityananda Prabhu sent Can-drasekhara to inform Advaita Acarya to come. When Mahaprabhu asked Advaita Acarya, "Is that You, Advaita? How did you know I was in Vrndavana?" Advaita Acarya said, "This must be some kind of joke. Wherever You are is Vrndavana. And it is My fortune that You have come here, near the Ganges.Oh, it is the Ganges?"

 

"Yes." Then, Mahaprabhu, regaining His consciousness of this world, said, "Oh, then it is a conspiracy of Nityananda Prabhu. He has brought Me here to the banks of the Ganges and told Me it is the Yamuna. It is all a hoax! I have fallen prey to His hoax."

 

Advaita Acarya argued, "No, no, Nityananda Prabhu has not spoken any falsehood. You have really taken bath in the Yamuna. The confluence of the Yamuna and Ganges is in Allahabad, and it is mentioned in sastra that the western side is the Yamuna, and the eastern side is the Ganges. Now You have taken Your bath in the western side, so You have taken Your bath in the Yamuna, according to scripture. So Nityananda Prabhu has not told any lie. Anyway, I have come with this new dress for You. Leave Your wet clothes and accept this new garb. I have also cooked something for You. For three days You have been fasting, and today, as a sannyasi, You must take some charity in My house. I am a poor man," he said with folded palms, "but You must come." They took Him by boat to Santipura, to the house of Advaita Acarya. The next morning Sacidevi came, and Mahaprabhu spent about ten or twelve days there in Santipura performing kirtana.

I believe that they also told Him, that wherever you are that is Vrdanavana. Alluding to this, Srila Sridhar Maharaj wrote Srila Prabhupada, that you can stay in New York or anywhere, because wherever you are is Vrndavana. So really only the topmost, highest type of devotee is always in the Spiritual World (you said Spiritual Sky but I think you meant "Spiritual World.")

If everyone is fully educated in siddhanta and realized then no clarification or detailed explanaition would be needed. But that is obviously not the case.

[shiva]

 

Read the Big book BG recently.

Still confused about what exactly it means when it says "without attachment, a liberated soul works in Krishna consciousness" .

 

A liberated soul is someone who understands and sees reality for what it really is. Those who are not liberated see reality differently then liberated people. For example when a liberated person reads these words he hears God speaking, not just the words of a human. This is because he understands that everyone and everything is under complete control at all times by God, and therefore because he sees everything in his environment as a manifestation under control by God, God can use everything in his environment to communicate with him e.g. through what he hears in his head (thoughts) to what he hears with his ears, what he sees with his eyes, what he feels with his body etc. Because this type of person understands that God is in control of everything, including himself, that everything is following a pre-arranged plan, he knows that whatever will happen in the future will also happen under the control and supervision of God. Knowing this as factual reality he knows that whatever are the results of his actions or of others, are due to the plan and control of God. Therefore he knows not to be attached to any hoped for result of any action because everything is beyond his control, he knows everything will happen according to the plan of God.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Thank you, Prabhu, for once again correcting me so kindly.

 

Feel free to split hairs with me any time!

 

 

Because to say that the only kind of devotee or bhakta is a pure devotee or suddha bhakta is true only from the absolute angle of vision. The sastra also describe mixed devotion like that mixed with karma and jnana.

...

If everyone is fully educated in siddhanta and realized then no clarification or detailed explanaition would be needed. But that is obviously not the case.

[Redsox]

 

I would prefer to say that it is a place that is attained by a state of consciousness.

 

We don't create the spiritual world by our consciousness.

We enter the spiritual world when consciousness is compatible.

 

Do you meet each other on the spiritual plane?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Very nicely said.

 

Regardless of whether God really has a "plan" (I recently asserted that, since God is beyond mundane time, there really is no "plan", but simply, what *is* in the eternal present). I like to think of God as being spontaneous and unpredictable--life is so much more interesting that way, isn't it?

 

 

A liberated soul is someone who understands and sees reality for what it really is. Those who are not liberated see reality differently then liberated people. For example when a liberated person reads these words he hears God speaking, not just the words of a human. This is because he understands that everyone and everything is under complete control at all times by God, and therefore because he sees everything in his environment as a manifestation under control by God, God can use everything in his environment to communicate with him e.g. through what he hears in his head (thoughts) to what he hears with his ears, what he sees with his eyes, what he feels with his body etc. Because this type of person understands that God is in control of everything, including himself, that everything is following a pre-arranged plan, he knows that whatever will happen in the future will also happen under the control and supervision of God. Knowing this as factual reality he knows that whatever are the results of his actions or of others, are due to the plan and control of God. Therefore he knows not to be attached to any hoped for result of any action because everything is beyond his control, he knows everything will happen according to the plan of God.

[shiva]

 

Very nicely said.

 

Regardless of whether God really has a "plan" (I recently asserted that, since God is beyond mundane time, there really is no "plan", but simply, what *is* in the eternal present). I like to think of God as being spontaneous and unpredictable--life is so much more interesting that way, isn't it?

 

People may "like" to conceive of reality in so many ways, but reality is one, regardless of the many divergent views on what is reality, wouldn't you agree? What is reality according to Krishna? That is relevant since Krishna is in control of reality. So lets see what Krishna has to say.

 

"All of them--as they surrender unto Me--I reward accordingly. Everyone follows My path in all respects, O son of Prtha"

 

"O Arjuna, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come. I also know all living entities; but Me no one knows."

 

So here we see Krishna's version of reality. He knows everything that is going to happen, why? Because everything and everyone "follows" his path. Krishna knows the future because he has it planned out. If God was spontaneous in everything that goes on in this world then it would be impossible to know the future. In order for God to know the future it has to be planned out, if the future was going to occur on the spontaneous whim of God then by the definition of spontaneous, God would not know the future. But in fact Krishna says He does know the future. Why? Because everyone is following the path he plans out for them i.e. their karmic destiny. In the Bhagavatam Krishna says

 

"All results of fruitive work have been arranged within this world by Me, the supreme creator acting as the force of time. Thus one sometimes rises up toward the surface of this mighty river of the modes of nature and sometimes again submerges.'

 

Everything going on in this world is planned out very meticulously in order that everyone's destiny, according to their karma, is experienced.

 

 

The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy.

 

PURPORT

 

Arjuna was not the supreme knower, and his decision to fight or not to fight was confined to his limited discretion. Lord Krsna instructed that the individual is not all in all. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, or He Himself, Krsna, the localized Supersoul, sits in the heart directing the living being. After changing bodies, the living entity forgets his past deeds, but the Supersoul, as the knower of the past, present and future, remains the witness of all his activities. Therefore all the activities of living entities are directed by this Supersoul. The living entity gets what he deserves and is carried by the material body which is created in the material energy under the direction of the Supersoul. As soon as a living entity is placed in a particular type of body, he has to work under the spell of that bodily situation. A person seated in a high-speed motorcar goes faster than one seated in a slower car, though the living entities, the drivers, may be the same. Similarly, by the order of the Supreme Soul, material nature fashions a particular type of body to a particular type of living entity to work according to his past desires. The living entity is not independent. One should not think himself independent of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The individual is always under His control.

 

And in the Bhagavtam Krishna tells us

 

"The material body certainly moves under the control of supreme destiny and therefore must continue to live along with the senses and vital air as long as one's karma is in effect. A self-realized soul, however, who is awakened to the absolute reality and who is thus highly situated in the perfect stage of yoga, will never again surrender to the material body and its manifold manifestations, knowing it to be just like a body visualized in a dream."

 

Someone who understands this transcendental knowledge can see Krishna everywhere.

 

 

For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me

 

PURPORT

 

A person in Krsna consciousness certainly sees Lord Krsna everywhere, and he sees everything in Krsna. Such a person may appear to see all separate manifestations of the material nature, but in each and every instance he is conscious of Krsna, knowing that everything is a manifestation of Krsna's energy. Nothing can exist without Krsna, and Krsna is the Lord of everything — this is the basic principle of Krsna consciousness.

 

Because Krishna is in control of everything and everyone, and has everything planned out, therefore a person who understands this knows that everything he experiences is really a manifestation of Krishna. Not in just some abstract understanding, but factually everything is a direct manifestation of Krishna. Knowing this and knowing when His devotee will come to this realization, Krishna can plan out in advance, that what His devotee will experience, once he becomes self realized, will be orchestrated to directly communicate with the devotee. Therefore in the Bhagavatam Krishna says

 

"My dear Uddhava, the Supreme Lord gives life to every living being and is situated within the heart along with the life air and primal sound vibration. The Lord can be perceived in His subtle form within the heart by one's mind, since the Lord controls the minds of everyone, even great demigods like Lord Siva. The Supreme Lord also assumes a gross form as the various sounds of the Vedas, composed of short and long vowels and consonants of different intonations."

 

"Within this world, whatever is perceived by the mind, speech, eyes or other senses is Me alone and nothing besides Me. All of you please understand this by a straightforward analysis of the facts."

 

Not only is everything in your external environment which you experience a manifestation of Krishna, and experienced due to the plan of Krishna, but also whatever your mind perceives is also of that nature e.g. the mind perceives thoughts, which are controlled by God. Conditioned souls think that they control the mind and they identify with the mind because of that. But in reality that is not the case. The person is not the mind, the person is pure consciousness, the thoughts (the mind) of a person are in reality part of a person's karmic destiny, and as Krishna says in the above, nothing but Him. Therefore Kapiladev tell us

 

"The mind of the living entity is known by the name of Lord Aniruddha, the supreme ruler of the senses. He possesses a bluish-black form resembling a lotus flower growing in the autumn. He is found slowly by the yogis."

 

"When the mind is thus completely freed from all material contamination and detached from material objectives, it is just like the flame of a lamp. At that time the mind is actually dovetailed with that of the Supreme Lord and is experienced as one with Him because it is freed from the interactive flow of the material qualities."

 

"Thus situated in the highest transcendental stage, the mind ceases from all material reaction and becomes situated in its own glory, transcendental to all material conceptions of happiness and distress. At that time the yogi realizes the truth of his relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He discovers that pleasure and pain as well as their interactions, which he attributed to his own self, are actually due to the false ego, which is a product of ignorance."

 

"A liberated soul realizes the Absolute Personality of Godhead, who is transcendental and who is manifest as a reflection even in the false ego. He is the support of the material cause and He enters into everything. He is absolute, one without a second, and He is the eyes of the illusory energy.

 

The presence of the Supreme Lord can be realized just as the sun is realized first as a reflection on water, and again as a second reflection on the wall of a room, although the sun itself is situated in the sky."

 

"Thus the yogi can be in the self-realized position after conquering the insurmountable spell of maya, who presents herself as both the cause and effect of this material manifestation and is therefore very difficult to understand."

 

"As the chariot of air carries an aroma from its source and immediately catches the sense of smell, similarly, one who constantly engages in devotional service, in Krsna consciousness, can catch the Supreme Soul, who is equally present everywhere"

[Murali_Mohan_das]

That's all good, Shiva Prabhu. I think you make my point better than I could.

 

It's semantics. "Plan" indicates a *future* event. If the Lord is beyond time then it's not really a "plan", is it? It's the eternal present. Wasn't there a Robert Heinlein novel that beautifully mused on these finer points of time and timelessness?

 

In any case, you can use the word "plan", if you like, but to me, it displays a lack of sophistication in your thinking.

 

From another perspective, it is said that Sri Krishna does *not* know everything. He doesn't know the depths of the Krishna Prem in the heart of Srimati Radharani. That's why He appears as Sriman Mahaprabhu.

[shiva]

 

That's all good, Shiva Prabhu. I think you make my point better than I could.

 

It's semantics. "Plan" indicates a *future* event. If the Lord is beyond time then it's not really a "plan", is it? It's the eternal present. Wasn't there a Robert Heinlein novel that beautifully mused on these finer points of time and timelessness?

 

In any case, you can use the word "plan", if you like, but to me, it displays a lack of sophistication in your thinking.

 

From another perspective, it is said that Sri Krishna does *not* know everything. He doesn't know the depths of the Krishna Prem in the heart of Srimati Radharani. That's why He appears as Sriman Mahaprabhu.

 

Uh, no. To all of it. You may want to reconsider i.e. there is reality, then there is your version of reality, the two are different. Before you give us some more of your version of reality, stop and consider if what you are saying is based upon anything you have ever experienced.

 

"Let me tell you a little story about a man named Sh! Sh! even before you start. That was a pre-emptive "sh!" Now, I have a whole bag of "sh!" with your name on it."

- Dr. Evil

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Uh, no. To all of it. You may want to reconsider i.e. there is reality, then there is your version of reality, the two are different. Before you give us some more of your version of reality, stop and consider if what you are saying is based upon anything you have ever experienced.

 

So, now you're asking me to base my beliefs and reason upon my imperfect senses and limited experience? What about the four defects?

 

Reality (as I am privy to it) is subjective. The ultimate Reality is Supersubjective.

[mahak]

the true is true because it is true, no pollution of fact is possible. What is that old saying, "an intelligent man can even learn from a fool, a fool can learn from no one".

 

So, as malcolm X said, "all the truth of what I say comes from God (Allah), all the mistakes are mine alone."

 

And the idea that we must become paramahamsa, swan like, comes to play. There is water mixed with milk, a swan can take either the water or the milk, leaving the other.

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[shiva]

 

So, now you're asking me to base my beliefs and reason upon my imperfect senses and limited experience? What about the four defects?

 

Reality (as I am privy to it) is subjective. The ultimate Reality is Supersubjective.

 

I am asking you to consider if the things you have written in response to me are based on anything you truly understand fom experience, as opposed to things you think you know based upon nothing more then speculation. As for your silly response above; Aren't you guilty of what you condemn by writing anything at all? Isn't everything you write about either the result of something you have experienced or not experienced? If you have experienced what you write about don't you think that that experience gives what you have to say more potency then things you speculate about but haven't experienced, since it comes from a place of knowing what you are talking about?

 

For example you say things that you have heard but do not understand, thinking that you have said something profound. The bit about time for example, or the above bit about subjective and supersubjective reality. It is obvious you are just repeating things that you don't understand. If you had experience or realization of what those concepts mean, then you wouldn't have written what you wrote in the nonsensical manner in which you have written them. For example you wrote

 

 

Regardless of whether God really has a "plan" (I recently asserted that, since God is beyond mundane time, there really is no "plan", but simply, what *is* in the eternal present). I like to think of God as being spontaneous and unpredictable--life is so much more interesting that way, isn't it?

 

That paragraph is nonsensical due to your inexperience or lack of realization of what you are talking about. You are right that God is beyond mundane time, we experience mundane time, we experience time in the singular, we each experience one existential time frame. God experiences everything that is going on, therefore God's experience of time is different then our own. But then you said that "since God is beyond mundane time there really is no"plan", but simply what *is* in the eternal present". Here you show that you have no idea what you are talking about, it is simply nonsensical, there is no philosophical connection that you make from God being beyond time to therefore God not having a plan because whatever "is" is in the eternal present. Whatever *is, is always in the eternal present, for everyone, what does that have to do with plans for the future being negated by that existential reality? Absolutely nothing, it's just gibberish. We are always in the eternal present but that doesn't negate my plan for dinner tonight. Likewise God also exists in the eternal present, but that doesn't negate God's ability to make a plan for future events. We are not more powerful then God.

 

Then you made this nonsensical statement

 

 

That's all good, Shiva Prabhu. I think you make my point better than I could.

 

It's semantics. "Plan" indicates a *future* event. If the Lord is beyond time then it's not really a "plan", is it? It's the eternal present. Wasn't there a Robert Heinlein novel that beautifully mused on these finer points of time and timelessness?

 

In any case, you can use the word "plan", if you like, but to me, it displays a lack of sophistication in your thinking.

 

From another perspective, it is said that Sri Krishna does *not* know everything. He doesn't know the depths of the Krishna Prem in the heart of Srimati Radharani. That's why He appears as Sriman Mahaprabhu.

 

First off nowhere in my post did I come even close to making your point for you since your point was nonsensical. Secondly you wrote this line of gibberish

 

 

It's semantics. "Plan" indicates a *future* event. If the Lord is beyond time then it's not really a "plan", is it? It's the eternal present. Wasn't there a Robert Heinlein novel that beautifully mused on these finer points of time and timelessness?

 

That makes no sense whatsoever. Since the Lord is beyond mundane time therefore his plans are not really plans? That is gibberish. Everyone only experiences the eternal present, the difference between our experience of the eternal present and God's expereince of it is that God is experiencing many more things and dimensions then we are at the present. That doesn't mean God doesn't or can't make plans for the future. To suggest as you have is simply nonsensical, there is no causality between what you attempt to describe. And what is the point of citing some unknown point from some unknown book by a sci-fi author? Is that supposed to lend credibility to your gibberish? Yikes.

 

Then came your next nonsensical statement where you claim that I'm not "sophisticated' enough to understand your finer points of philosophy, LOL. Then you try to use something about Mahaprabhu's reason for descent to bolster your claim that God doesn't or cannot make plans or whatever, of course it makes no sense to draw such a conclusion from that line of thought. Don't try to use something you don't understand to try and bolster something else you don't understand, just a helpful hint.

 

Then came your next post of nonsense.

 

 

So, now you're asking me to base my beliefs and reason upon my imperfect senses and limited experience? What about the four defects?

 

Reality (as I am privy to it) is subjective. The ultimate Reality is Supersubjective.

 

I already addressed the first paragraph, in the second you say something which makes no sense as an attempt to claim that spiritual reality cannot be understood from experience. Your experience of spiritual reality is subjective, but that doesn't mean that everyone's experience of spiritual reality is like yours. What do you think the concept of self realization or God realization means? It means that spiritual reality is experienced and understood objectively. Just like I can subjectively pontificate about things I have never experienced, say a certain type of curry, or time in relation to God and God's reality, but if I eat that curry then I can speak on it from an objective plane, if I study the words of God then I can have an objective understanding of God, either because God is telling us the true reality, or we realize that reality through the study of God's word and reception of God's grace.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Now, Shiva-ji, you sound like a dog chasing his tail.