The Villagers and the train - Different realizations of the absolute truth

[Kulapavana]

 

A simple question to all of you sleepervadis:

 

WHAT IS THAT LIGHT COMING OUT OF YOGI'S HEAD?

 

if you ask any transcendentalist, even a new bhakta, they will answer that question without ANY hesitation. How about you, Drutakarma's disciples? Can you answer that simple question in one sentence?

 

so far only one sleepervadi took up the challenge. Let me repeat the question:

 

WHAT IS THAT LIGHT COMING OUT OF YOGI'S HEAD?

[Guruvani]

 

so far only one sleepervadi took up the challenge. Let me repeat the question:

 

WHAT IS THAT LIGHT COMING OUT OF YOGI'S HEAD?

 

from what I have heard about sleepervadi siddhanta, they would say it is the SECONDARY PROJECTED-SELF of the jiva who is snoozing in Goloka.

[Kulapavana]

 

from what I have heard about sleepervadi siddhanta, they would say it is the SECONDARY PROJECTED-SELF of the jiva who is snoozing in Goloka.

 

nowhere in the entire Vedic literature such a thing is ever mentioned. Anyone care to say what is that thing called in sanskrit?

[Beggar]

 

nowhere in the entire Vedic literature such a thing is ever mentioned. Anyone care to say what is that thing called in sanskrit?

Why yes, the proper sanskrit term is "oogum boogum"

 

 

Oogum oogum boogum boogum

boogum now baby you're castin' your spell on me

I say, "Oogum oogum boogum boogum

boogum now baby you're castin' you're spell on me."

You got me doin' funny things like a clown

just look at me.

[Kulapavana]

 

Why yes, the proper sanskrit term is "oogum boogum"

 

that is precisely what I thought.

 

To deny that the actual individual soul resides in the body HERE and NOW and that is precisely what makes this body ALIVE - is a flagrant disregard for siddhanta of ALL legitimate Vedic sampradayas.

 

I am shocked and disgusted it is Srila Prabhupada's senior disciples who proposed such utter nonsense.

[theist]

 

that is precisely what I thought.

 

To deny that the actual individual soul resides in the body HERE and NOW and that is precisely what makes this body ALIVE - is a flagrant disregard for siddhanta of ALL legitimate Vedic sampradayas.

 

I am shocked and disgusted it is Srila Prabhupada's senior disciples who proposed such utter nonsense.

 

Well there is another point you may want to consider. It is not exactly the spiritual form of the self that keeps a body alive it is the energy or life force of that spiritual self that keeps the body alive.

 

Consider yogis who can leave their body at will. The body doesnot die when they are gone because a certain connection is kept supplying prana to the inactive form while the yogi is elsewhere.

 

But even that projection from the body is just another projection of consciousness which does not necessitate the spiritual form of the self. This is also known as maya's throwing capacity. The "throwing" of consciousness from "here to there".

An analogy can be made to being in a movie theater and being really absorbed in the movie. Say like in a fighter jet during a dog fight. The plane is turning upside down at incredible speeds and spinning and turning left then right and the next thing you know you are squirming in your movie seat and covering you eyes as you start to feel motion sickness.

 

I am an acrophoic (fear of heights) and can tell you that when a scene comes up that shows someone on any edge of a building or cliff way high up I can't watch it.

 

This is the nature of the vicarious living the self is subjected too here in this virtual reality dreamland called the material world.

 

Your continous mocking of your opponents is unseemly and would be even if you had actually won the debate, but even that you have yet to do.

[Kulapavana]

 

Well there is another point you may want to consider. It is not exactly the spiritual form of the self that keeps a body alive it is the energy or life force of that spiritual self that keeps the body alive.

 

 

when the yogi temporarily leaves his physical body, that body is merely sustained, but there is no activity. there is also a limit to how far you can go while maintaining the energetical link with the body. and exactly how many yogis can accomplish such a trick?

 

still, the fact is the body is only alive because the individual atman resides in it - here an now. that is the teaching of the Vedas.

 

the sleepervadis can come up with all kinds of goobly gook, yet the FACT is:

 

WE ARE HERE IN THE MATERIAL WORLD with our entire being (remember, the soul is indivisible)

[Beggar]

 

(remember, the soul is indivisible)

 

If the soul is indivisible then how can some souls be in Krsna lila and Gaura lila at the same instant?

 

Represent, Respek, West Side, Peace Out

[theist]

 

when the yogi temporarily leaves his physical body, that body is merely sustained, but there is no activity. there is also a limit to how far you can go while maintaining the energetical link with the body. and exactly how many yogis can accomplish such a trick?

 

still, the fact is the body is only alive because the individual atman resides in it - here an now. that is the teaching of the Vedas.

 

the sleepervadis can come up with all kinds of goobly gook, yet the FACT is:

 

WE ARE HERE IN THE MATERIAL WORLD with our entire being (remember, the soul is indivisible)

People astral project all the time. It is no great siddhi. And just the fact that one can do proves the point.

 

There is activity. Metabolism continues unabated by sleep. The brain is active the heart is active, the lungs are active. how can you say the body in inactive. At sleep the body releases some chemical that temporaily prevents the body from moving around. That sometimes fails and the result is sleep walking.

 

How far you can go is also immaterial to the question. One foot or a billion lights the principle is the same.

 

And remember the soul is also described as immovable.

 

Cool mystery huh?

[theist]

 

If the soul is indivisible then how can some souls be in Krsna lila and Gaura lila at the same instant?

 

Good point. Logic based on time and space has no standing when trying to realize transcendence.

[Beggar]

'I can be you (bodily vessel) you can be me (bodily vessels) and we can all be each other'... See how they run like pigs from a gun, see how they fly. I'm crying.

Sitting on a cornflake, waiting for the Sleeper-Vadis to come.

Corporation tee-shirt, stupid bloody Monday.

MAN, you Vardis have been a naughty boys, you let your face grow long.

I am the egglessman, they are the eggmen, I am the walrus,

goo goo g'joob

Represent, Respek, West Side, Peace Out

[Kulapavana]

 

People astral project all the time. It is no great siddhi. And just the fact that one can do proves the point.

 

What people call astral projection is mostly sleep and dreams... The rare authentic shamanic trance happens on a different plane of perception, where things come to us, and not that the soul goes anywhere. The yogic siddhi travel is quite a different phenomena.

 

And all that proves what point? That the soul is not in the body? Oh, pleeeease... find a single shastric quote that supports your sleepervada theory.

[Kulapavana]

 

If the soul is indivisible then how can some souls be in Krsna lila and Gaura lila at the same instant?

 

 

This is not possible for jivas like you or me, even when we reach topmost perfection.

 

Sometimes fairy tales are spun among Gaudiyas in order to add flavor to the stories, but there is no shastric basis to such notions.

[Beggar]

 

This is not possible for jivas like you or me, even when we reach topmost perfection.

 

Sometimes fairy tales are spun among Gaudiyas in order to add flavor to the stories, but there is no shastric basis to such notions.

 

Q & A with Swami B. V. Tripurari

Q. Some saints in Krsna lila or Caitanya lila are described as

combinations of different personalities; for example, Ramananda Raya,

the associate of Sri Chaitanya, is said to be Arjuna and Visaka sakhi

simultaneously. How are we to understand this and which Arjuna is being

referred to, the cowherd friend of Krsna in Vraja lila or the warrior

friend of Krsna of Bhagavad-gita fame?

 

A. Eternal associates (nitya parsada) of Krsna like Ramananda Raya are

constituted of Krsna's svarupa-sakti, unlike the jiva souls in the

material world who are constituted of his tatastha-sakti. Nitya parsada

souls often appear with the Lord in his various incarnations in

appropriate forms or in more than one form. For that matter when the

jiva comes under the influence of Krsna's svarupa-sakti, it can realize

more than one spiritual form in which to serve Krsna. For example, it

is taught in the Gaudiya tradition that the jiva can attain a form as a

young brahmana boy in Gaura lila and a corresponding form as a gopi or

gopa in Krsna lila.

 

Sri Jiva Goswami cites a passage from the Candogya Upanisad in his

Priti-sandarbha in this regard, interpreting it in an interesting way.

Sri Jiva says, "By his own will a liberated soul can manifest many

different forms. This is described in these words of Candogya Upanisad

(7.26.2): sa ekadha bhavati, dvidha bhavati, tridha bhavati: 'The

liberated soul may manifest one form, two forms, three forms, or more

forms than that.' "

He cites this passage while speaking about the highest liberation, as

described in the preceding chapter of the same Upanisad. Sri Jiva says,

"The highest state of liberation is described in these words of

Candogya Upanisad (7.25.2): sa va evam pasyann evam manvana evam

vijanann atma-ratir atma-krida atma-mithuna, 'In this way the liberated

soul sees God, thinks of him, understands him, delights in him, and

enjoys pastimes with him.' " Candogya 7.26.2 cited above is referring

to spiritual forms and the potential of the liberated to have more than

one such form for the sake of lila with Bhagavan.

 

Regarding Ramananda Raya in particular, various devotees have

identified him differently. Kavi Karnapura identified him with the gopi

Lalita and the Pandava Arjuna based upon the Ramananda-samvada's being

roughly analogous to the Bhagavad-gita. He also identifies him as the

priyanarma sakha Arjuna of Vraja-lila based on his pacifying Sri

Caitanya when he assumed the bhava of Krsna in separation from Radha.

Priyanarma sakhas are confidential friends of Krsna who are involved in

service within the romantic life of Radha-Krsna.

 

Others such as Bhaktivinoda Thakura have identified Ramananda Raya with

Visakha gopi based on Visakha's being so similar to Radha, having been

born on the same day, and so on. Because of this similarity, she (as

Ramananda Raya) is eminently qualified to help Caitanya Mahaprabhu

enter Radha's bhava. Such is the rasika darsana (visionary ecstasy) of

different devotees, and such is the potential of the nitya parsadas of

Sri Krsna.

[theist]

 

What people call astral projection is mostly sleep and dreams... The rare authentic shamanic trance happens on a different plane of perception, where things come to us, and not that the soul goes anywhere. The yogic siddhi travel is quite a different phenomena.

 

And all that proves what point? That the soul is not in the body? Oh, pleeeease... find a single shastric quote that supports your sleepervada theory.

 

Dream on little soul. I won't disturb your slumber.

[Kulapavana]

 

Candogya 7.26.2 cited above is referring

to spiritual forms and the potential of the liberated to have more than

one such form for the sake of lila with Bhagavan.

 

 

It can be politely said that this verse can be interpreted in many ways.

 

Devotees will see references to Srimati Radharani even in the Rig Veda, but that is only their madness of separation speaking.

[theist]

Quote:

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If the soul is indivisible then how can some souls be in Krsna lila and Gaura lila at the same instant?

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This is not possible for jivas like you or me, even when we reach topmost perfection.

 

Sometimes fairy tales are spun among Gaudiyas in order to add flavor to the stories, but there is no shastric basis to such notions.

 

----------

 

This from a guy that claimed to represent the Gaudiya Vaisnava acaryas just one hour ago.

 

Anything he doesn't understand he calls a fairytale while at the same time claiming to believe in those things he has no way of verifying independently of just by hearing from the Vaisnava acaryas. Sheesh

[theist]

Even materialistic yogis are said to be able to have 7 or 9? different forms simultaneously.

[Kulapavana]

 

Even materialistic yogis are said to be able to have 7 or 9? different forms simultaneously.

 

these forms are said to be merely mirror images of the original form.

[Kulapavana]

 

This from a guy that claimed to represent the Gaudiya Vaisnava acaryas just one hour ago.

 

Anything he doesn't understand he calls a fairytale while at the same time claiming to believe in those things he has no way of verifying independently of just by hearing from the Vaisnava acaryas. Sheesh

 

Prabhupada told fairytales on occasion. Entire "shastras" were fabricated by some Gaudiyas and presented as "discoveries of ancient texts" to prove various points. Various Gaudiya Vaishnavas came up with all kinds of contradictory rasika stories and interpretations, some of which are listed above. That is because most Gaudiyas claim to pursue the "higher truth" or "subjective truth" as opposed to a historical of factual truth. Yet the Goswamis laid the most solid foundation of our siddhanta precisely on the scriptural basis.

 

I tend to believe things pretty much all Vaishnavas believe, and which are based on shastra (even if such shastric basis is somewhat extrapolated, like the quote from Chandogya Up.).

[theist]

 

Prabhupada told fairytales on occasion. Entire "shastras" were fabricated by some Gaudiyas and presented as "discoveries of ancient texts" to prove various points. Various Gaudiya Vaishnavas came up with all kinds of contradictory rasika stories and interpretations, some of which are listed above. That is because most Gaudiyas claim to pursue the "higher truth" or "subjective truth" as opposed to a historical of factual truth. Yet the Goswamis laid the most solid foundation of our siddhanta precisely on the scriptural basis.

 

I tend to believe things pretty much all Vaishnavas believe, and which are based on shastra (even if such shastric basis is somewhat extrapolated, like the quote from Chandogya Up.).

 

And you think I'm dangerous. I think the real danger lies in those that take on the externals of initiation into a specific sampradaya, go by their initiated names, present themselves as representing a particular line of decending teachings and then change those teaching to suit their mind whims and then present a twisted version of that line teachings, in this case GV.

 

You sure have an exaggerrated view of your scriptual knowledge and understanding.

 

No problem if you have different views from these acaryas. I do in some cases. The problem is in claiming to be the real representative of those teachings. That is cheating.

 

As for me I don't claim to be anymore than a basic theist with a developing interest in learning about the higher rungs of theism. There is a certain freedom in acknowledging our real positions. So much less baggage to carry.

[Kulapavana]

 

And you think I'm dangerous.

 

I dont think you are dangerous. But I think it is dangerous to think that things that pretty much all Vaishnavas agree on (like the historicity of the Pandava story as told by Mahabharata) are a mere myth.

 

It is also dangerous, IMO, to proclaim that Prabhupada presented understanding of GV siddhanta which differs with that of previous acharyas, and that from now on these differences become our siddhanta. That simply implies that the disciplic succession does NOT convey unbroken knowledge but that each acharya is free to come up with his own version of the truth. That is precisely what the fall-from-Goloka-vadis and the sleeper-vadis say: Prabhupada came up with a new version of the truth.

 

Speaking about changing the teachings: which changes in the GV siddhanta have I introduced? I have no problem taking a critical look at my own tradition, but please tell me which changes you accuse me of making. Just because my understanding of siddhanta is different then yours does not make a change in siddhanta. You dont even try to represent the sampradaya - it is all just about what you think and feel. I on the other hand make a very serious effort to separate the modern concoctions and fairy tales from the real siddhanta, as given to us by the Goswamis and other acharyas. I'm sure I dont have it 100% right, but it is not about my inventions and preferences.

 

Over the years I have met more blind fanatics in Iskcon then I care to remember. That forced me to study the tradition from many angles, because I did not want them to ruin the faith of many new people coming to our movement. It is far more then a personal preference to me - I want to make sure some cultist idiots spouting half baked theological garbage dont make them run away from our sampradaya.

[theist]

Beggar offered quotations from Jiva Gosvami citing the Chandogya Upanishad,. You called those ideas a fairytale. Don't you see that you cannot on one pretend to defend the true siddhanta of the Gosvami's and at the same time call the siddhanta they present fairytales?

 

I don't know a thing about the Chandogya Upanishad or Jiva Gosvami for that matter and I have no problem questioning anything and everything either says. I take that saying Question Authority as part and parcel of my very self while in matter. It is sage advice and I appreciate that you take a similar road. It is just that we can't take an opposing view to Jiva Gosvami and at the same time claim to be protecting his teachings.

 

This is my only point here.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Interesting reading, these are the hard facts that no-one can dispute

 

These are the facts, the impersonalist yogi mentioned above is not a devotee and does not recognize Paramatma accompanying him, he only sees himself as one with everything and does not even recognize his own individuality, he considers himself as part of one all pervasive life force and he sees that light emanating from himself as the oneness that flows through all living things and makes up the impersonal clear light or Brahmajyoti. Not only does the impersonalist yogi not believe in his nitya-siddha body, but he also does not believe in a nitya-baddha consciousness. To them there is only one consciousness flowering through all existence, all bodily vessels etc.

Devotees call this Mayavardi philosophy

 

 

This is correct understanding

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Beggar

Are you kidding us or what? Have you gone off the deep end?

 

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Beggar, Guruvani and co do you guys have any idea of Vedic Knowledge, apparently not?

 

 

Well there is another point you may want to consider. It is not exactly the spiritual form of the self that keeps a body alive it is the energy or life force of that spiritual self that keeps the body alive.

 

Consider yogis who can leave their body at will. The body doesnot die when they are gone because a certain connection is kept supplying prana to the inactive form while the yogi is elsewhere.

 

But even that projection from the body is just another projection of consciousness which does not necessitate the spiritual form of the self. This is also known as maya's throwing capacity. The "throwing" of consciousness from "here to there".

An analogy can be made to being in a movie theater and being really absorbed in the movie. Say like in a fighter jet during a dog fight. The plane is turning upside down at incredible speeds and spinning and turning left then right and the next thing you know you are squirming in your movie seat and covering you eyes as you start to feel motion sickness.

 

I am an acrophoic (fear of heights) and can tell you that when a scene comes up that shows someone on any edge of a building or cliff way high up I can't watch it.

 

This is the nature of the vicarious living the self is subjected too here in this virtual reality dreamland called the material world.

 

Your continous mocking of your opponents is unseemly and would be even if you had actually won the debate, but even that you have yet to do.

 

Vigraha is right! The reason why the Mayavardis think they are God is because they believe they are EVERYTHING. In Mayavardi philosophy you can forget about terminologies like nitya-baddha, nitya-siddha and the individual jivatma, they do not believe in any of that that because THEY think they are God AND the ONE ALL PERVASIVE ENERGY of life force that flows through All living things - period!!

[Guruvani]

 

 

 

Beggar, Guruvani and co do you guys have any idea of Vedic Knowledge, aparantly not?

 

 

 

And the fellow who can't even spell "apparently" is going to tell us all about Vedic knowledge?

You need to finish middle school first.

Then, come teach us about Vedanta.

 

You are borderline illiterate and you are the guy that knows all about Vedanta?

 

You are funny.

Very, very funny.

Hahaha - tehehehe!!!!