The Villagers and the train - Different realizations of the absolute truth

[Guruvani]

 

 

 

Beggar, Guruvani and co do you guys have any idea of Vedic Knowledge, aparantly not?

 

 

 

One thing we know for sure; you are NOT Drutakarma das.

At least he knows how to spell "apparently".

 

You are some poor chump from Australia with an 8th grade education.

We know who you are.

You are just a bug flying around the ISKCON porch light.

[Sarva gattah]

 

This is the nature of the vicarious living the self is subjected too here in this virtual reality dreamland called the material world.

 

Your continous mocking of your opponents is unseemly and would be even if you had actually won the debate, but even that you have yet to do.

 

Wake up Mr Vardi (Guruvani), your in Goloka right now!!. Oh, by the way, you and I and everyone else NEVER came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

The Villagers and the train - Different realizations of the absolute truth

 

Many years ago, the British came to India and began building a train line between Delhi and Mathura. Many simple villages on the outskirts at the time had no idea what a train looked like, so when the time had come to greet the train, the village elders would sent a young representative down to meet the train and ascertain what it is and then come back with the news of its anticipated arrival.

 

On the evening of its appearance, the villagers patiently and inquisitively waited in expectation and wonder of what a ‘train’ was. Eventually day turned to night and everyone in the Village became anxious and excited, knowing the train’s arrival was imminent. The fact was, no one had any inkling of what a train was. The young boy was dispatched and was told to immediately report back to the Village elder as soon as he identifies the train.

 

Off the young boy went in the dark and began to wait patiently. The night sky was clear and there was very little breeze in the air, he could hear the usual sounds of native animals although; even they were quite on this still moonless chilly night.

 

Then to the young boys surprise, out of the pitch black darkness and the still of night, he heard this thunderous extended high-pitched sound (the train whistles), being excited, he was convinced he now new what the train was. He immediately ran back to the village elders and excitedly told them,

 

 

"The train is a big sound"

 

 

Some of the elders were puzzled, but most accepted the news as final and that a train is just a sound. Still not convinced the train was just a sound, feeling puzzled, a few decided to send another young villager down to investigate this sound and if there was more to the train. The second young boy the villager elders sent down was told to wait well into the darkness of night until the sound came closer to him. Eventually, after hearing the sound many times in a mood of fear of the unknown and inquisitiveness of what a train really is, he finally saw in the distance an extremely bright light that scared him. The combination of the sound and the bright blinding light frightened him because he did not understand what he was experiencing! Being excited he rushed back to the elders proclaiming,

 

 

 

“The train is not only a sound but is also 'bright blinding light' as well”

 

 

Many at the village where now convinced what a train was and most where satisfied however, still a few believed there might be more to a train than an impersonal sound and light. So again they sent a third young boy to investigate. He also began to patiently wait and stay for as long as it takes. He began experiencing the sound getting louder and the light getting brighter, louder and louder the sound was becoming while at the same time the light was becoming brighter and brighter - then to his surprise, both the sound and light passed him by. To his astonishment, he discovered the source of both the sound and light, coming from the form of the train. Behind the sound and light was form, or objects like carriages that are filled with people like him, all engaging in all kinds of different activities? He ran back to the village yelling,

 

 

 

“The train is a form from where the sound and light emanated, where people are engaged in all kinds of activity”.

 

They all eventually saw the train for what it really is (Personalism) Brahman therefore is held together by form. The highest realizing is Personalism. The above painting is of Krishna and His brother Balarama whose abode Goloka-Vrindavan is beyond the impersonal light or impersonal Brahman destination of impersonalist yogis and Buddhists. Srila Prabhupada says – “where there is light there is no darkness’.

 

 

 

I just want to remember what this thread is all about, great story and anology that tells the difference between Personalism and Impersonalism

[Guruvani]

 

I just want to remember what this thread is all about, great story and anology that tells the difference between Personalism and Impersonalism

 

the most demonic of all impersonalist is the impersonalist who says that Krishna parshada nitya-siddhas become impersonal to Krishna and leave his service for petty sense enjoyment in the material wolrd.

 

Now, that is an IMPERSONALIST who says that Krishna is so miserable that his parshadas are abandoning him by the billions at every moment.

 

Sicko!!!

sicko dude.... you are a mental case.

 

Who screwed your head up so bad?

Can you tell us who did this to you?

[HerServant]

Mandukya Upanishad

 

verse 1)

Hari Om. Om-ity-etad-aksharam-idam sarvam, tasyopavyakhyanam bhutam bhavad bhavishyaditi sarvam-omkara eva. Yaccanyat trikalatitam tadapy omkara eva.

 

All is Hari Om. The whole universe is the Om. Following is the exposition of Om. Everything that was, is, or will be is, in truth Om. All else which transcends time, space, and causation is also Om.

 

 

verse 8)

So'yam-atma adhyaksharam-omkaro dhimatram pada matra matrasca pada akara ukaro makara iti.

 

Those Four are the Same with "A-U-M" and Silence: That Om, though described as having four states, is indivisible; it is pure Consciousness itself. That Consciousness is Om. The three sounds A-U-M (ah, ou, mm) and the three letters A, U, M are identical with the three states of waking, dreaming, and sleeping, and these three states are identical with the three sounds and letters. The fourth state, Turiya is to be realized only in the silence behind or beyond the other three.

 

Before you can comment on the above, you must be able to worship Lord Hari simultaneously in the waking, dreaming, and subconscious (deep sleep) state.

 

Peace and love.

 

HerServant and yours.

[Kulapavana]

 

Beggar offered quotations from Jiva Gosvami citing the Chandogya Upanishad,. You called those ideas a fairytale.

 

correction: it is a third party quote (someone supposedly quoting JG) not a full quote from Gosvami's work. Drutakarma quotes too.

[Kulapavana]

 

Wake up Mr Vardi (Guruvani), your in Goloka right now!!. Oh, by the way, you and I and everyone else NEVER came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti

 

the four Kumaras and Sukadeva Goswami all came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti. they only became devotees because they came in contact with pure devotion here in the material world.

 

and btw. what about that spark of light coming out of yogi's head? afraid to answer such a simple question?

 

I suppose the only reason you are still here and not wide awake in Goloka is to help poor schlobs like me and Guruvani? so very kind of you...

 

despite all this great secret knowledge you claim to understand, you and other sleepervadis are still here... what DOES it take to wake up on the other side?

[Beggar]

 

I just want to remember what this thread is all about, great story and anology that tells the difference between Personalism and Impersonalism

 

the most demonic of all impersonalist is the impersonalist who says that Krishna parshada nitya-siddhas become impersonal to Krishna and leave his service for petty sense enjoyment in the material wolrd.

 

Now, that is an IMPERSONALIST who says that Krishna is so miserable that his parshadas are abandoning him by the billions at every moment.

 

Sicko!!!

sicko dude.... you are a mental case.

 

Who screwed your head up so bad?

 

Can you tell us who did this to you?

 

Thank you Guruvani for standing up to this garbage offensive mentality. A similar mentality was prevalent in 70's ISKCON and as we wrote in earlier posts, it was the infamous Drutakarma das Asuracari who harnessed this mentality to create purges in ISKCON in the 80's and again in this decade.

[Sarva gattah]

Quote:

 

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“The train is not only a sound but is also 'bright blinding light' as well”

 

 

 

Many at the village where now convinced what a train was and most where satisfied however, still a few believed there might be more to a train than an impersonal sound and light. So again they sent a third young boy to investigate. He also began to patiently wait and stay for as long as it takes. He began experiencing the sound getting louder and the light getting brighter, louder and louder the sound was becoming while at the same time the light was becoming brighter and brighter - then to his surprise, both the sound and light passed him by. To his astonishment, he discovered the source of both the sound and light, coming from the form of the train. Behind the sound and light was form, or objects like carriages that are filled with people like him, all engaging in all kinds of different activities? He ran back to the village yelling,

 

 

 

 

 

“The train is a form from where the sound and light emanated, where people are engaged in all kinds of activity”.

They all eventually saw the train for what it really is (Personalism) Brahman therefore is held together by form.

 

 

These are the facts, the impersonalist yogi mentioned above is not a devotee and does not recognize Paramatma accompanying him, he only sees himself as one with everything and does not even recognize his own individuality, he considers himself as part of one all pervasive life force and he sees that light emanating from himself as the oneness that flows through all living things and makes up the impersonal clear light or Brahmajyoti. Not only does the impersonalist yogi not believe in his nitya-siddha body, but he also does not believe in a nitya-baddha consciousness. To them there is only one consciousness flowering through all existence, all bodily vessels etc

Devotees call this Mayavardi philosophy

 

 

 

The reason why the Mayavardis think they are God is because they believe they are EVERYTHING. In Mayavardi philosophy you can forget about terminologies like nitya-baddha, nitya-siddha and the individual jivatma, they do not believe in any of that that because THEY think they are God AND the ONE ALL PERVASIVE ENERGY of life force that flows through All living things - period!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

However even them are nitya siddha devotees of Krishna and are only DREAMING they are mayavardis, just like Guruvani, Begger, Kulapavana and co are DREAMING all their nonsense mental projections, not realizing THEIR nitya-siddha bodily devotional identity .

 

 

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The Vardi-mafia of Guruvani, Begger, Kulapavana and co, I remember all the abuse that was thrown at Srila Prabhupada and how he was attacked by A MADMAN on LSD, such abuse and the trials and tribulations only made him stronger

 

So get used to the fact that ALL OF US, including the so called demons, Mayavardis, impersonalists, materialists and even those of you born from the rectum of Lord Brahma:D are ALL nitya-siddhas and are presently just having a bad dream.

 

NOTE: The word vardi refers to those or believe we all come from the impersonal Brahmajyoti and we all return to the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

[Beggar]

 

NOTE: The word vardi refers to those or believe we all come from the impersonal Brahmajyoti and we all return to the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

None of your opponents, on this forum have ever said that it is their goal or the goal of Gaudiya Vaisnavas to "return to the impersonal Brahmajyoti". You seem to making alot of this up as you go along. Another meaning of the word vardi is what comes out of a male bovines asana. In this sense you are certainly a Vardi-Vada of the nth degree. Now you could say, "it takes one to know one". And I could reply, "I know you are, but what am I." I guess that you either don't want to have a rational debate or due to vardi growing on the frontal lobe of your brain, you are unable to. (Now you've got me writing "vardi") Either way you want to label those who believe what they have read with their own eyes about the origin of the jiva as impersonalists. At first it was a subtle allegation. But now it turns out that we are supposed to desire to merge into the brahmajyoti. But in your insane paradigm, we can't even deny it and say that we want to revive our eternal relationship with Krsna or at least say that we want to be Krsna's or Radha's or Mahaprabu's servant, life after life. But to no avail, we are all secretely impersonalists unbeknownst even to ourselves. We'll that's some of the biggest B.S. I've ever heard. Why are you really here, on this forum, just to get our goat and drive everyone crazy? Who knows maybe you don't even believe what you are writing and are just somekind of warped mad person?

[Sarva gattah]

THEN STOP USING THE WORD VARDI, LEAVE IT WHERE IT BELONGS : - MAYA-VARDI

 

 

 

[Beggar]

 

THEN STOP USING THE WORD VARDI, LEAVE IT WHERE IT BELONGS : - MAYA-VARDI

 

 

 

 

VARDI this sucka!!!!!

[Kulapavana]

Sarva-gatah-ji &Co... still cant answer a simple question about the yogi?

 

How about the light that came out of Sisupala and entered into Krsna's effulgence (brahmajyoti) after his head was cut off by Sudarshana Cakra? What was that light? And it entered what?

 

Name calling is for little kids playing in the sandbox. How about some logic, shastra, and philosophy?

[Vedesu]

 

Why yes, the proper sanskrit term is "oogum boogum"

 

You're right, it is oogum boogum. At first I thought you were mistaken, as I had originally believed it to be: "Do wah diddy diddy dum diddy do" from the Manfred Mann Upanishad, which also blessed us with the timeless adage (english translation) "Blinded by the light. Revved up like a deuce, another runner in the night." I really wanted to pick a nit with you on this, but doggone it, I looked it up, and good golly Miss Molly, you were right. I stand corrected and I apologize for doubting you. Please accept my humble obeisances.

[Ashvatama]

 

Sarva-gatah-ji &Co... still cant answer a simple question about the yogi?

 

How about the light that came out of Sisupala and entered into Krsna's effulgence (brahmajyoti) after his head was cut off by Sudarshana Cakra? What was that light? And it entered what?

I have read the story of the train and it is explaining what impersnalism is, what the Buddhists and Mayavardis believe. It has nothing to do with Krishna Lila. Yudhisthira Maharaja saw Sisupala's soul enter Krsna's body, he began to think, "How wonderful!" Even a yogi, rsi or muni does not have this kind of mercy of Krsna that is only eventually attained after many many births and only then through the association of devotees, even if they are enemies of devotees. In the case of Sisupala, like all living entities that think or dream they are In the material world, he eventually was re-established as his endless nitya-siddha real bodily identity in Vaikuntha. The Lila goes like this -

 

Yudhisthira Maharaja wondered why rsis, yogis and maharsis, after thousands of births of chanting mantras like "so 'ham, so 'ham" could not attain the destination of sayujya-mukti (impersonal liberation). How wonderful it was, then, that this light entered the lotus feet of Krsna. But where did it go? Narayana was present within Krsna's body, because all the incarnations are always in Krsna, the Supreme Lord. Sisupala thus returned to Narayana in Vaikuntha and became His doorkeeper Jaya, but this was not seen externally. The entire world is in the stomach of Krsna. Narayana and other incarnations can also all fit there, but still His stomach can be empty and He can feel hungry.

[Kulapavana]

 

Yudhisthira Maharaja wondered why rsis, yogis and maharsis, after thousands of births of chanting mantras like "so 'ham, so 'ham" could not attain the destination of sayujya-mukti (impersonal liberation). How wonderful it was, then, that this light entered the lotus feet of Krsna. But where did it go? Narayana was present within Krsna's body, because all the incarnations are always in Krsna, the Supreme Lord. Sisupala thus returned to Narayana in Vaikuntha and became His doorkeeper Jaya, but this was not seen externally.

 

in case you missed it, the point was that the individual soul is very much here, inside the body living in the material world (and not fast asleep in Goloka), and one can witness it's exit OUT of this body and depart to other destination.

 

BTW. in case of Sisupala and all other souls departing for Vaikuntha, they must travel THROUGH brahmajyoti to get there - thus externally we may see them enter the brahmajyoti but the rest of their journey is hidden from our view. See also the Isa Upanishad mantra hiranmayena patrena...

[Ashvatama]

 

in case you missed it, the point was that the individual soul is very much here, inside the body living in the material world (and not fast asleep in Goloka), and one can witness it's exit OUT of this body and depart to other destination.

 

BTW. in case of Sisupala and all other souls departing for Vaikuntha, they must travel THROUGH brahmajyoti to get there - thus externally we may see them enter the brahmajyoti but the rest of their journey is hidden from our view. See also the Isa Upanishad mantra hiranmayena patrena...

 

Your mssing the reality of the eternal presents of Vaikuntha and Goloka in relationship to the past, present nf future of the material creation.

 

Narada replied that the cause of all this is kala (time) – the results of past activities. Sometimes, like during Satya-yuga, (the age of goodness), the demigods and others like them become prominent. In Kali Yuga, on the other hand, the demons are more powerful. It seems that Krsna helps certain personalities, but actually the events of this world are controlled by time. Krsna is equal to all, and everything here is thus due to kala.

 

You should not be angry or criticize anyone. If you are in distress or disturbed by many problems, it is due to you, yourself:

 

tat te 'nukampam su-samiksamano

bhunjana evatma-krtam vipakam

hrd-vag-vapurbhir vidadhan namas te

jiveta yo mukti-pade sa daya-bhak

 

["My dear Lord, one who earnestly waits for You to bestow Your causeless mercy upon him, all the while patiently suffering the reactions of his past misdeeds and offering You respectful obeisances with his heart, words and body, is surely eligible for liberation, for it has become his rightful claim." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.14.8)]

 

Eva atma krtam. What one has done in the past is now coming back to him. If one is a pure bhakta and the results of all his past activities are finished, why would problems come to him? His so-called problems are due to the mercy of Krsna. Problems are not coming; Krsna is sending them. The Pandavas were praying for great calamity so that Krsna would be with them. Krsna gave them great distress – as he gave to Draupadi when Dusasana tried to remove her clothes – and He did the same to Prahlada Maharaja. He gave Prahlada so many troubles. Why? He considered, "The entire world should know that My devotees are exalted; they do not care about saving themselves, so I must save them." You can know all these truths by reading Srimad-Bhagavatam.

 

When one is in Goloka, does one really care what material body they had in the material world After all, we have had billions of them. Isn't the eternal 'present' in Goloka and Vaikuntha beyond the concept of past, present and future in the material world ot mahat-tattva? Which means our perpetual Krishna Consciousness will have no interest in what we were in the past in the material world, nor the future in the material world because we will be too absorbed in our devotional service in the eternal 'presents in Goloka' serving Krishna. Such loving service, always thinking of pleasing the object of our love with unconditional service actually does not allow one the memory of past, present and future of the material 'dream''world and its extended bye product of decay, forgettfulness, changing bodies, to exist.

 

Why would one want to remember 'that which is not' (Maya)? In fact it is not possible in Goloka because the only reality is Krishna and His dear pure devotees and maya cannot exist there. However if one looks up into the Spiritual Sky in Krishna Lila, they may see a insignificant dark cloud although, like everything else if Goloka, that cloud (mahat-tattva) will only be another aspect of Krishna's beauty in the color of a monsoon cloud

 

Srila Prabhupada - The living entity's constitutional position is to be a servitor; he has to serve either the illusory Maya or the Supreme Lord. If he serves the Supreme Lord he is in his normal condition, but if he prefers to serve the illusory, external energy, then certainly he will be in bondage.

 

Srila Prabhupada - In illusion the living entity is serving in this material world. He is bound by his lust and desires, yet he thinks of himself as the master of the world. This is called illusion.

 

Srila Prabhupada - When a person is liberated, his illusion is over, and he voluntarily surrenders unto the Supreme to act according to His desires.

 

Srila Prabhupada - The last illusion, the last snare of Maya to trap the living entity, is the proposition that he is God. The living entity thinks that he is no longer a conditioned soul, but God. He is so unintelligent that he does not think that if he were God, then how could he be in doubt? That he does not consider. So that is the last snare of illusion.

 

Srila Prabhupada - Actually to become free from the illusory energy is to understand Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and agree to act according to His order.

 

Srila Prabhupada - Real knowledge is the understanding that every living being is eternally a servitor of the Lord, but instead of thinking oneself in that position, the living entity thinks that he is not a servant, that he is the master of this material world, for he wants to lord it over the material nature. That is his illusion. This illusion can be overcome by the mercy of the Lord or by the mercy of a pure devotee. When that illusion is over, one agrees to act in Krishna consciousness.

 

Srila Prabhupada - A conditioned soul, illusioned by the external energy of matter, does not know that the Supreme Lord is the master who is full of knowledge and who is the proprietor of everything.

 

Srila Prabhupada - One who does not know Him (Krishna) is under the spell of illusion; he does not become a devotee, but a servitor of Maya. Arjuna, however, after hearing Bhagavad-gita from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, became free from all illusion. - All quotes from http://vedabase.net/bg/18/73/en1 B.G. 18.73

 

Srila Prabhupada - As living spiritual souls, we are all originally Krishna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness is now polluted by the material atmosphere, called Maya, or illusion.

 

And what is this illusion?

 

The illusion is that we are all trying to be lords of material nature, while actually we are under the grip of her stringent laws. When a servant artificially tries to imitate the all-powerful master, he is said to be in illusion. Translation to the Hare Krishna mantra 1966

 

When the mayavadi's say the world is an illusion, to them nothing is real because they have no concept that Krishna is the Supreme Creator and enjoys His eternal pastimes in the eternal 'presents’ or Goloka, the permanent imperishable Krishna Conscious Spiritual Sky.

 

The devotees on the other hand see that if it is not permanent, then it is illusion, only because it does not include Krishna. In this way, that which is illusion means it is temporary, decaying, fading, to the point that eventually it will appear as if it never was – that which is not - Maya.

 

Srila Prabhupada clearly explains here how the non-Krishna conscious dreams (nitya-baddha consciousness) that are sub-consciously separate from ones marginal nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body, are then transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu. This secondary (conditioned) extension of the marginal living entities is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted self centred thoughts and awareness manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires

 

Srila Prabhupada - 'There is possibility (falling from Vaikuntha), if you do not stick to the spiritual principle, even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the Vaikuntha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down'. Bhag.-Gita class, Honolulu: July 4, 1974)

 

Srila Prabhupada - “We wanted to give up Krishna.”

 

Srila Prabhupada therefore clearly tells us that we have never been always conditioned because factually our svarupa body is always in Goloka, only our 'dreaming' consciousness comes to the mahat-tattva from Vaikuntha, although as complicated as it may be to understand, our nitya-baddha conscious condition is only temporarily exists.

 

In this way, just as the sun dissipates the darkness, when one is fully established as their nitya-siddha authentic eternal body, the darkness or the nitya-baddha counterfeit consciousness will simply not exist. This is because our non-Krishna conscious desires or the nitya-baddha feature of ones marginal identity can never exist in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

Srila Prabhupada -“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

 

Gaura Premanande.

[Ashvatama]

The conception of Goloka manifests itself differently in proportion to the degree of realization of the various pastimes of Vraja and it is very difficult to lay down any definite criterion as to which portions are mundane and which are uncontaminated. The more the eye of devotion is tinged with the salve of love, the more will the transcendental concept gradually manifest itself. So there is no need of further hypothetical speculation which does not improve one's spiritual appreciation, as the substantive knowledge of Goloka is an inconceivable entity.

 

To try to pursue the inconceivable by the conceptual process is like pounding the empty husk of grain, which is sure to have a fruitless ending. It is, therefore, one's bounden duty. by refraining from the endeavor to know, to try to gain the experience of the transcendental by the practice of pure devotion. Any course, the adoption of which tends to produce the impression of featurelessness, must be shunned by all means. Unalloyed parakīya-rasa free from all mundane conception is a most rare attainment. It is this which has been described in the narrative of the pastimes of Gokula.

 

Those devotees, who follow the dictate of their pure spontaneous love, should base their devotional endeavors on that narrative. They will attain to the more wholesome fundamental principle on reaching the stage of realization. The devotional activities characterized by illicit amour, as practiced by worldly-minded conditioned souls, are forbidden mundane impiety. The heart of our apostle Śrīpāda Jīva Gosvāmī was very much moved by such practices and induced him to give us his conclusive statements on the subject.

 

It is the duty of a pure Vaiṣṇava to accept the real spirit of his statements. It is a great offense to disrespect the ācārya and to seek to establish a different doctrine in opposition to him. Srila Prabhupada therefore clearly tells us that we have never been always conditioned because factually our svarupa body is always in Goloka, only our 'dreaming' consciousness comes to the mahat-tattva from Vaikuntha, although as complicated as it may be to understand, our nitya-baddha conscious condition is only temporarily exists.

 

In this way, just as the sun dissipates the darkness, when one is fully established as their nitya-siddha authentic eternal body, the darkness or the nitya-baddha counterfeit consciousness will simply not exist. This is because our non-Krishna conscious desires or the nitya-baddha feature of ones marginal identity can never exist in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.

[Kulapavana]

all this talk and still no answer to my very simple question?

 

what is that light? one sanskrit word would be enough to name it.

[Beggar]

 

Your mssing the reality of the eternal presents of Vaikuntha and Goloka in relationship to the past, present nf future of the material creation.

 

 

Its not that the party that presents you opposition also opposes the above concept as it (the above statement) stands alone. The opposition is how the Sleeper-Vardis (yes, now we like the "vardi" word and have become obsessed with it) or Sleeper-Vadis (if you prefer) have applied this truth to the other parts of the siddhanta. In Caitanya Caritamrta it is given, nitya siddha krsna prema sadhya kabu naya. So the idea that the jiva is already liberated and our anadi - almost eternal bondage is like a dream is sastric. The previous acaryas and current "Gaudiya Math" acaryas certainly accept this and in turn although we have no realization, we will try to follow suit. So the difference lies in how we apply this concept. The Sleeper-Vadi heresy extends this nitya siddha concept into territory that it was never meant to approach. Such heretics (also the OOPers) assert that the eternal, (internal - intimate) bhaktas in Goloka fall down or at least dream that they do (which would be tantamount to falling).

The Sleeper-Vadis use bullying tactics in this debate. They call persons who believe in Krsna lila and see it as the goal to attain entrance there, Mayavadis (or erroneously MayaVardis); yet never once is there any attempt to provide a philosophical foundation for such a charge. Not one of these several posters has ever show any foundation for the charge. Yet they repeat it as if it was a slogan (the word derives from sloka). It's as if its true, just because they believe it is! And secretly they believe that this all comes from Srila Prabhupada, yet there is not one statement any where that anyone has ever found that Srila Prabhupada ever called any of his godbrothers "imperonalists". Yet still Sleeper-Vadi hacks harangue us with such propaganda. Propaganda is one thing but this form of propaganda uses the Big Lie Technique. The idea behind the Big Lie Technique is that if you repeat an idea that has no foundation, or basically a lie,enough they people will eventually accept it. Such a type of propaganda was the basis for all racist, "ethnic cleansings" in history. "Propaganda," Goebbels once wrote, "has absolutely nothing to do with truth." So that Sidhar Maharaj obviously hotly attacks the real mayavadis and preaches Mahaprabhu's philosophy that the highest form of bhakti is found in the damsels of Vraja is of no consequence to the Sleeper-Vadis. They will just repeat, again and again that because he says that the jiva emanates from the tatastha region which is actually the Lord's effulgence -THEN- he is an impersonalist....WITHOUT EVER EVEN ONCE TRYING TO EVEN EXPLAIN THE CONNECTION THAT THEY ARE MAKING!!!!! Such an act is libelous, defamation of character of a great saint and obviously an extreme form of Vaisnava aparadha. Yet when all else fails, the Sleeper-Vadis will return to this, everytime because there is no logic to their system.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

I just want to remember what this thread is all about, great story and anology that tells the difference between Personalism and Impersonalism

 

Not exactly. A train is a train. What's the difference between a train and a train? It's about differences in perspective.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Beggar has subtly been trying to clue you in, Sarva-G, as to why you are the butt of so many jokes here.

 

Let me do so more bluntly: THERE IS NO "R" IN "MAYAVADI".

 

Of course, if one speaks with an English Cockney or a lower-class Australian accent, it would only be natural to interpolate an "r" into "Mayavadi".

 

Also, it's rather painful to see you using a picture of Srila Prabhupada as your avatar when your mastery of the English language is nowhere near as great as his (what to speak of your mastery of basic philosophy and Vaishnava etiquette).

 

I use the avatars I do because I wouldn't want anybody to assume that I am an authorized representative of anybody but myself.

[theist]

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

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This is the nature of the vicarious living the self is subjected too here in this virtual reality dreamland called the material world.

Your continous mocking of your opponents is unseemly and would be even if you had actually won the debate, but even that you have yet to do.

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Wake up Mr Vardi (Guruvani), your in Goloka right now!!. Oh, by the way, you and I and everyone else NEVER came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti

----------------

Again just for the record. I absolutely 100% accept that maya is a dream state of the individual soul. However I take no position on where that soul originates from.

The process of dreaming is exactly the same rather the dreamer originated from the variegated Spiritual Sky or the Brahman.

I leave the origin for you all the battle over.

[Ashvatama]

What was the light emanating from Sisupala's body and where did that light it go?

The light that entered the lotus feet of Krsna from Sisupala's body was the life force vessel now freed from being covered by that dark subtle ethereal material body of a demon.

That liberated life force is an effulgent individual spark of dormant consciousness that also is a part and parcel of the unlimited dreamless effulgent collective known as the Impersonal Brahmajyoti (a collective of nitya-baddha dreamless dormant consciousnesses all in denial of their full nitya-siddha Krishna conscious potential)

 

This state however is only temporary and the dormant consciousness again falls to the material world to be yet again be covered by ethereal and biological vessels

Now in Sisupala's case, who was killed by Vishnu- tattva, he was not left dormant as a part and parcel of impersonal Brahmajyoti but was rather transferred to the lotus feet of Krishna on Route back home back to Godhead.

Therefore it was only (LIKE ALL OF US), the fallen (dreaming) nitya-baddha characteristic of his marginal identity (jiva-tattva) that went to the material world in the first place and taken the material bodily roles of demons like Sisupala. Therefore it was only the marginal living entity Jaya's, (the door keeper in Vaikuntha) secondary nitya baddha conditioned consciousness, that entered the material world and simply played the demon role of Sisupala while his perpetual nitya siddha bodily identity is always the door keeper Jaya in Vaikuntha.

 

He was sent back to his full uncovered awareness, which is his perpetual nitya-baddha body. In this way the counterfeit consciousness (nitya-baddha) is an effulgent bright bodiless light or spark when not covered with the subtle ethereal body or vessel

[Beggar]

 

Again just for the record. I absolutely 100% accept that maya is a dream state of the individual soul. However I take no position on where that soul originates from.

The process of dreaming is exactly the same rather the dreamer originated from the variegated Spiritual Sky or the Brahman.

One could also say,

I absolutely 100% accept that maya is a dream state of the individual soul. However I accept the tatastha position on where that soul originates from.

The process of dreaming is exactly the same rather the dreamer originated from the variegated Spiritual Sky or the Brahman.

Which means that the Sleeper-Vadi argument that we don't get the "process of dreaming" is absolutely false. It is a smokescreen, as is the impersonlism charge, used when one cannot adequately support their position.