The Villagers and the train - Different realizations of the absolute truth

[Ashvatama]

 

Not exactly. A train is a train. What's the difference between a train and a train? It's about differences in perspective.

 

The point I understood is that the light of the train was made by the persons who built the train, hence Personalism

[theist]

 

One could also say,

I absolutely 100% accept that maya is a dream state of the individual soul. However I accept the tatastha position on where that soul originates from.

The process of dreaming is exactly the same rather the dreamer originated from the variegated Spiritual Sky or the Brahman.

Which means that the Sleeper-Vadi argument that we don't get the "process of dreaming" is absolutely false. It is a smokescreen, as is the impersonlism charge, used when one cannot adequately support their position.

[Kulapavana]

 

What was the light emanating from Sisupala's body and where did that light it go?

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The light that entered the lotus feet of Krsna from Sisupala's body was the life force vessel now freed from being covered by that dark subtle ethereal material body of a demon.

 

is there a sanskrit term for that "life force vessel"? I'm assuming you claim it is not the same as the "soul" or "atman" described in the Vedic literature. What is the term Srila Prabhupada uses in his books to describe that "life force vessel"? He uses the word "soul" countless times, but I do not recall him ever talk about a "life force vessel". Being brilliant as the sun, this "life force vessel" surely must have been described by someone in detail, but I have never run into it's description in the srutis and smritis. All they talk about is atman or brahman, yet you seem to claim it is neither.

[Ashvatama]

I believe we can all find the answer to this by understaning what the eternal presents really means. We know that means there is no past or future.

Now even mundane logic and quantum psychics of mathematics will tell us that if there is no past or future and there is only the perpetual 'forever present', then everything that can be there in Goloka is already there and has always been there. Even a child can understand that

 

Maybe most of us are simply not ready to understand this

 

[Ashvatama]

 

is there a sanskrit term for that "life force vessel"? I.

 

You read it incorrectly or may have read that before it was properly edited. Sometimes I press the submit instead of preview

[Beggar]

 

I believe we can all find the answer to this by understaning what the eternal presents really means. We know that means there is no past or future.

Now even mundane logic and quantum psychics of mathematics will tell us that if there is no past or future and only there is only the perpetual present, then everything that can be there in Goloka is already there and has always been there. Even a child can understand that

 

Maybe most of us are simply not ready to understand this

 

"Maybe most of us are simply not ready to understand this". This is simply untrue of Srila Sridhar Maharaj and your opposing posters on this forum. WE DO UNDERSTAND THIS. What you are saying is a spiritual fact and is stated in Caitanya Caritamrta, nitya siddha krsna prema, sadhya naya. Any intellegent observer can see that this is not the point of contention. The point of contention is over, HOW THE NITYA SIDDHA VERSE IS APPLIED TO THE DEVOTIONAL CONCLUSION. If we apply it the way you do then we must assume that the eternal parishads of Sri Krsna are just as fallable as the most wretched (or dreaming he is wretched) jiva. Aside from the preaching or introductory level of Krsna Consciousness, the real levels of confindential devotional service focus more on bhakti towards the parishads of the Lord. The way in which the Sleeper-vadis apply the illusion of time concept minimizes the postion of the parishad bhaktas and thereby destroys the concept of real guru and vaisnava bhakti and ultimately it opposes the underlying concepts of Rupanuga bhakti. Consequently Sleeper-Vada is apa-sampradaya and imitation Krsna Consciousness.

[Kulapavana]

 

You read it incorrectly or may have read that before it was properly edited. Sometimes I press the submit instead of preview

 

and the correct version is what? I simply asked you about a term you are using.

[Beggar]

 

The point I understood is that the light of the train was made by the persons who built the train, hence Personalism

But where does it say anywhere that the idea that the jiva souls originate from the effulgence of Sri Bhagavan, the brahmajyoti, is an impersonist concept? Part of the answer is that there are many references in Prabhupada's books to the "impersonal brahman".From the purport to Sri Isopanishad 15,

 

...In other words, Bhagavan, or the Personality of Godhead, is the last word of the Absolute Truth. Paramatma is the partial representation of the Personality of Godhead, and impersonal Brahman is the glowing effulgence of the Personality of Godhead, as the sun rays are to the sun-god. Less intelligent students of either of the above schools sometimes argue in favor of their own respective realization, but those who are perfect seers of the Absolute Truth know well that the above three features of the one Absolute Truth are different perspective views seen from different angles of vision.

"Less intelligent students of either of the above schools sometimes argue in favor of their own respective realization", but nobody who opposes the Sleeper-Vadi or Fall-Vadi view is arguing in favor of meditating and ultimately merging with the impersonal brahman.

Again From the purport to Sri Isopanishad 15, "Perfect knowledge means knowing Krishna as the root of this Brahman effulgence." So the allegation that one who accepts such statements as, Sri Isopanisad, Text 16, purport,

 

The all-pervading feature of the Lord which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jiva-sakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls-is known as Brahman.

 

is an impersonlist has no foundation in any form of logic, sastra or any reality and is a travesty and a fraud perpetrated by misguided and sentimental, foolish, naive and less intellegent pseudo-devotees. The most saddest aspect of this is that it is being done in the name of Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

 

 

 

 

 

[Shakti-Fan]

Gaudiya siddhanta is attacked. Devotees ask resonable questions to the aggresor camp. Questions are not answered. Discussion is suspended, until hours or days later, then comes another attack.

[Guruvani]

 

"Maybe most of us are simply not ready to understand this". This is simply untrue of Srila Sridhar Maharaj and your opposing posters on this forum. WE DO UNDERSTAND THIS. What you are saying is a spiritual fact and is stated in Caitanya Caritamrta, nitya siddha krsna prema, sadhya naya. Any intellegent observer can see that this is not the point of contention. The point of contention is over, HOW THE NITYA SIDDHA VERSE IS APPLIED TO THE DEVOTIONAL CONCLUSION. If we apply it the way you do then we must assume that the eternal parishads of Sri Krsna are just as fallable as the most wretched (or dreaming he is wretched) jiva. Aside from the preaching or introductory level of Krsna Consciousness, the real levels of confindential devotional service focus more on bhakti towards the parishads of the Lord. The way in which the Sleeper-vadis apply the illusion of time concept minimizes the postion of the parishad bhaktas and thereby destroys the concept of real guru and vaisnava bhakti and ultimately it opposes the underlying concepts of Rupanuga bhakti. Consequently Sleeper-Vada is apa-sampradaya and imitation Krsna Consciousness.

 

I think there needs to be some clarification about the meaning of this verse:

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 22.107

 

nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-prema 'sādhya' kabhu naya

śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya

 

SYNONYMS

nitya-siddha — eternally established; kṛṣṇa-prema — love of Kṛṣṇa; sādhya — to be gained; kabhu — at any time; naya — not; śravaṇa-ādi — by hearing, etc.; śuddha — purified; citte — in the heart; karaye udaya — awakens.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"Pure love for Kṛṣṇa is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens.

 

It appears that some devotees are taking the meaning of this verse and specifically the words "nitya-siddha" to mean that the conditioned jiva is actually nitya-siddha.

 

However, the verse is NOT saying that.

If we look at the way the term nitya-siddha is translated we will find that it does not translate as eternally liberated but rather as eternally established.

 

The verse is NOT saying that the jiva is eternally liberated.

Rather it is saying that krishna prema is eternally established in the heart of the living entity.

 

I think that the idea that this verse is saying that the conditioned souls are nitya-siddha is just not correct.

 

If we read the whole verse and translation in context we will NOT find that the verse is saying that the living entity is eternally liberated, but that the living entity eternally has love of Krishna established in the heart. Though, we know that such Krishna prema must be awakened through devotional service.

[suchandra]

 

I think there needs to be some clarification about the meaning of this verse:

 

 

It appears that some devotees are taking the meaning of this verse and specifically the words "nitya-siddha" to mean that the conditioned jiva is actually nitya-siddha.

 

However, the verse is NOT saying that.

If we look at the way the term nitya-siddha is translated we will find that it does not translate as eternally liberated but rather as eternally established.

 

The verse is NOT saying the the jiva is eternally liberated.

Rather it is saying that krishna prema is eternally established in the heart of the living entity.

 

I think that the idea that this verse is saying that the conditioned souls are nitya-siddha is just not correct.

 

If we read the whole verse and translation in context we will NOT find that the verse is saying that the living entity is eternally liberated, but that the living entity eternally has love of Krishna established in the heart. Though, we know that such Krishna prema must be awakened through devotional service.

 

Thanks Guruvani, real enlightenment!

 

[Svarupa]

 

What was the light emanating from Sisupala's body and where did that light it go?

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The light that entered the lotus feet of Krsna from Sisupala's body was the life force vessel now freed from being covered by that dark subtle ethereal material body of a demon.

That liberated life force is an effulgent individual spark of dormant consciousness that also is a part and parcel of the unlimited dreamless effulgent collective known as the Impersonal Brahmajyoti (a collective of nitya-baddha dreamless dormant consciousnesses all in denial of their full nitya-siddha Krishna conscious potential)

 

This state however is only temporary and the dormant consciousness again falls to the material world to be yet again be covered by ethereal and biological vessels

Now in Sisupala's case, who was killed by Vishnu- tattva, he was not left dormant as a part and parcel of impersonal Brahmajyoti but was rather transferred to the lotus feet of Krishna on Route back home back to Godhead.

Therefore it was only (LIKE ALL OF US), the fallen (dreaming) nitya-baddha characteristic of his marginal identity (jiva-tattva) that went to the material world in the first place and taken the material bodily roles of demons like Sisupala. Therefore it was only the marginal living entity Jaya's, (the door keeper in Vaikuntha) secondary nitya baddha conditioned consciousness, that entered the material world and simply played the demon role of Sisupala while his perpetual nitya siddha bodily identity is always the door keeper Jaya in Vaikuntha.

 

He was sent back to his full uncovered awareness, which is his perpetual nitya-baddha body. In this way the counterfeit consciousness (nitya-baddha) is an effulgent bright bodiless light or spark when not covered with the subtle ethereal body or vessel

 

The Impersonal Brahmajyoti, Brahma-sayujya and Impersonal Brahman is not a place where one goes; it is not some empty place or void, it is rather the dormant state of the marginal living entities or jiva souls secondary (nitya-baddha) condition of their being or their inactive consciousness when become dormant after experiencing the frustration of ethereal and biological vessels within the mahat-tattva.

 

Attempting to obliterate their consciousness means they have no information or realization that they (every marginal living entity or jiva soul) have a perpetual body eternally established (nitya-siddha) within the timeless realm of Goloka-Vrndavana.

[Svarupa]

 

Thanks Guruvani, real enlightenment!

 

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

 

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with Krishna, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

 

Every marginal living entity or jiva soul haS a perpetual body eternally established (nitya-siddha) within the timeless realm of Goloka-Vrndavana.

[Beggar]

May Day! May Day! Sleeper-Vadis are on your tail at 3 o'clock!!!

[Svarupa]

 

I think there needs to be some clarification about the meaning of this verse:

 

 

It appears that some devotees are taking the meaning of this verse and specifically the words "nitya-siddha" to mean that the conditioned jiva is actually nitya-siddha.

 

However, the verse is NOT saying that.

If we look at the way the term nitya-siddha is translated we will find that it does not translate as eternally liberated but rather as eternally established.

 

The verse is NOT saying that the jiva is eternally liberated.

Rather it is saying that krishna prema is eternally established in the heart of the living entity.

 

I think that the idea that this verse is saying that the conditioned souls are nitya-siddha is just not correct.

 

If we read the whole verse and translation in context we will NOT find that the verse is saying that the living entity is eternally liberated, but that the living entity eternally has love of Krishna established in the heart. Though, we know that such Krishna prema must be awakened through devotional service.

 

Guruvan stop adding you nonsense ideas and learn ALL correct TRANSLATIONS

 

nitya-siddha — eternally perfected; CC Madhya 6.12

nitya-siddha — eternally established; CC Madhya 22.107

nitya-siddha — eternally liberated; CC Antya 5.49-50

nitya-siddha — ETERNALLY LIBERATED

 

“The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can’t be eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

 

Srila Prabhupada – ‘This ordinary living being is of two kinds — nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.’ SB 5.11.12 Purport

 

Then Srila Prabhupada explains.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, (NITYA-BADDHA) but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

[Shakti-Fan]

 

May Day! May Day! Sleeper-Vadis are on your tail at 3 o'clock!!!

Roger, Prabhu, I see him. I'm going to lock and load, and take evasive action, I'm going to dive to 5k ft. Roger Prabhu, Beginning dive. Over

[Svarupa]

[quote name=' original quote Sarva gattah

Wake up Mr Vardi (Guruvani), your in Goloka right now!!. Oh, by the way, you and I and everyone else NEVER came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti theist]<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

 

[Shakti-Fan]

 

 

THE FINAL CONCLUSION

 

 

I'm taking fire but I don't think I'm hit!

[Kulapavana]

 

I'm taking fire but I don't think I'm hit!

 

you forgot you are merely dreaming about being in a fight. you are actually fast asleep in Goloka.

 

one cowherd boy to another: this cow is having a bad dream. look at it's tail!

 

[Svarupa]

Sometime it is best to let the barking dogs bark and move on - go read the letter post

[Beggar]

I saw a couple of contrails, did you fire the sidewinders at the Sleeper-Vadi?

[Shakti-Fan]

 

I saw a couple of contrails, did you fire the sidewinders at the Sleeper-Vadi?

 

Roger, that's an affirmative. I didn't see a fireball or anything so I don't think I hit him. I think he's out of range, maybe out on book distribution. over.

[Svarupa]

 

The Impersonal Brahmajyoti, Brahma-sayujya and Impersonal Brahman is not a place where one goes; it is not some empty place or void, it is rather the dormant state of the marginal living entities or jiva souls secondary (nitya-baddha) condition of their being or their inactive consciousness when become dormant after experiencing the frustration of ethereal and biological vessels within the mahat-tattva.

 

Attempting to obliterate their consciousness means they have no information or realization that they (every marginal living entity or jiva soul) has a perpetual body eternally established/liberated (nitya-siddha) within the timeless realm of Goloka-Vrndavana.

 

[Svarupa]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Svarupa

 

THE FINAL CONCLUSION

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Yes we are dreaming our material continuation as well as our existence in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, if we dare go to that dreaming-MAYA-avardi dreamless loveless selfish impersonal state of our own nitya-baddha consciousness.

 

Our original position is perpetually established in Goloka ((NITYA-SIDDHA) beyond the mundane time and space of the mahat-tattva (material creation) and the impersonal Brahmajyoti that only uneducated old fools think we originate from.

 

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu - “When we “return” to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here. We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position”. Ravindra Svarup dasa web site

 

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu - “We need only wake up and see where we are. All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left. Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth” Ravindra Svarup dasa web site

 

Srila Prabhupada – “In the Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda, it is stated that beyond the one-fourth part of God’s creation is the three-fourths manifestation . . . This part is eternal, everlasting, without deterioration, and unlimited, and it contains the highest perfectional stage of living conditions. In the Sankhya-kaumudi it is stated that unalloyed goodness or transcendence is just opposite to the material modes. All living entities [in the Vaikunthalokas ] are eternally associated without any break. . . everything in the transcendental world is everlasting . . . There are no such actions and reactions of cause and effects there, so the cycle of birth, growth, existence, transformations, deterioration and annihilation-the six material changes-are not existent there. It is the unalloyed manifestation of the energy of the Lord, without illusion as experienced here in the material world”. (Bhag. 2.9.10, purport)

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

[Guruvani]

 

 

THE FINAL CONCLUSION

 

 

 

Ok.

That is your conclusion so we don't expect to have to listen to your sleepervadi rant anymore.

You have said your peace.

Now, go crawl back into the hole you came from.

 

You have planted the seed of self-destruction.

Go back to your dungeon and set in your chair and wait for judgement day.