Narayana Maharaja throws Us a Curve Ball

[Shakti-Fan]

Our Relationship With Balarama

Tridandiswami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaj,

OUR ROOT CAUSE IS BALADEVA

The root of all jivas, the cause of all jivas, is Baladeva Prabhu. In Vraja, the jivas have manifested from the original Baladeva. They have never come to this world. They have always served Radha and Krsna in madhurya-rasa or sakhya-rasa. From Baladeva comes Mula Sankarsana in Dvaraka. Asanka (innumerable) jivas come from Baladeva in His form as Mula Sankarsana, and they serve Dvarkadhisa and Mathuresa Krsna in so many ways. From Mula Sankarsana comes Maha Sankarsana in Vaikuntha. He manifests the mukta-jivas there, and they eternally serve Rama, Nrsmha, Kalki, Vamana, Narayana and all other svansa incarnations. From Maha Sankarsana comes Karanodakasayi Visnu in the tatastha region, and He manifests the tatastha-jivas. Among them, some become free from maya and some become baddha-jivas, conditioned souls. In this way, we see that all kinds of jivas have come from Baladeva.

It is told like this in the scriptures, but actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. This is only said to convince ordinary jivas, conditioned souls. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

So, would you say that it's not fair to lump Sripad Narayana Maharaja's conception in with Srila Sridhar Maharaja's conception in terms of the origins debate?

 

 

Our Relationship With Balarama

Tridandiswami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaj,

[Beggar]

Bhakta Amos: Holy Mackerel Bhakta Andy, did you just see what I saw on Audarya?

Bhakta Andy: I did, amazin. But now that you're in the bhakta program you have to stop glorifying fish.

[Beggar]

 

So, would you say that it's not fair to lump Sripad Narayana Maharaja's conception in with Srila Sridhar Maharaja's conception in terms of the origins debate?

I think that the debate has to do with the search for the truth and not some illogical ad hominem argument used either pro or con. Don't be hat'in on brother Shakt-fan, just cause he's a member of The Nation of Islam and still follows the Honorable Elijah Mohammed!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

It wasn't a flippant or pointed question, I hope.

 

The Fall from Goloka folks tend to see this "debate" in terms of Srila Prabhupada vs. the Gaudiya Math. They see Srila Sridhar Maharaja and Sripad Narayana Maharaja as being "Gaudiya Math", though Srila Sridhar Maharaja started his own Matha, and as far as I know, Sripad Narayana Maharaja's Math is not directly connected (formally) with Gaudiya Math.

 

Does that clarify the question I asked?

 

I'm saying, do Sripad Narayana Maharaja and Srila Sridhar Maharaja present the same conception regarding the origin of the soul (not that it makes any difference in our devotional lives--I'm just curious (and that's dangerous, no doubt))?

 

 

I think that the debate has to do with the search for the truth and not some illogical ad hominem argument used either pro or con. Don't be hat'in on brother Shakt-fan, just cause he's a member of The Nation of Islam and still follows the Honorable Elijah Mohammed!

[Beggar]

Put on your thinking cap for a moment, Brother Murali. If as descibed in Srila Sanatana Goswami's Brhat Bhagavatmrta and spoken about by Srila Sridhar Maharaja: At first the Gopa Kumar is greated by Krsna who tells him, "How could you stay away for so long?" and "I know about all the sacrifices that you made for me". Then they both faint. Srila Sridhar paraphrases Sanatana Goswami and says that gradually the memory of not being in Vraja begins to fade. Once it's faded its gone. So from the viewpoint of that jiva at that postion, he's always been in Goloka. Srila Prabhupada called this angle, "from the philisophical point of view". It seems that he means from the viewpoint of eternity. But we are not presently in that position, so if we go against sastra, which is meant for our position and espouse that we are originally from Goloka, or that we are there and just dreaming that we are there, then we will make serious ontological, siddhantic mistakes, such as not seeing the special postion of the eternal associates of the Lord who never fall down. Yet simultaneously it is told in Caitanya Caritamrta, nitya siddha krsna prema sadya kabu naya. And from that viewpoint as Prabhupada has said, "we are already liberated". Unfortunately it doesn't seem easy to balance all these concepts with out jumping into the deep end of the pool. In reality the deep end is on both sides of the pool - duality.

[Shakti-Fan]

Thank you Heir Beggar, you took the words right out of my mouth.

Also you should know that I took the side of Malcolm X.

[theist]

 

Put on your thinking cap for a moment, Brother Murali. If as descibed in Srila Sanatana Goswami's Brhat Bhagavatmrta and spoken about by Srila Sridhar Maharaja: At first the Gopa Kumar is greated by Krsna who tells him, "How could you stay away for so long?" and "I know about all the sacrifices that you made for me". Then they both faint. Srila Sridhar paraphrases Sanatana Goswami and says that gradually the memory of not being in Vraja begins to fade. Once it's faded its gone. So from the viewpoint of that jiva at that postion, he's always been in Goloka. Srila Prabhupada called this angle, "from the philisophical point of view". It seems that he means from the viewpoint of eternity.But we are not presently in that position, so if we go against sastra, which is meant for our position and espouse that we are originally from Goloka, or that we are there and just dreaming that we are there, then we will make serious ontological, siddhantic mistakes, such as not seeing the special postion of the eternal associates of the Lord who never fall down. Yet simultaneously it is told in Caitanya Caritamrta, nitya siddha krsna prema sadya kabu naya. And from that viewpoint as Prabhupada has said, "we are already liberated". Unfortunately it doesn't seem easy to balance all these concepts with out jumping into the deep end of the pool. In reality the deep end is on both sides of the pool - duality.

 

Gee, I wonder where we heard that before?

 

One expects to hear apologizes to Sarva-gattah, Vigraha et all for all the insults and abuse hurled their way but if I were them I would'nt hold my breath.

[Beggar]

 

Gee, I wonder where we heard that before?

 

One expects to hear apologizes to Sarva-gattah, Vigraha et all for all the insults and abuse hurled their way but if I were them I would'nt hold my breath.

First Mruali Mohan jumps into one deep end of the duality and then Theist, as if on que, jumps in the opposite deep end of unqualified dualistic thought. acintya bheda [a]bheda tattva.

This time try to read more closely:

 

But we are not presently in that position, so if we go against sastra, which is meant for our position and espouse that we are originally from Goloka, or that we are there and just dreaming that we are there, then we will make serious ontological, siddhantic mistakes, such as not seeing the special postion of the eternal associates of the Lord who never fall down. Yet simultaneously it is told in Caitanya Caritamrta, nitya siddha krsna prema sadya kabu naya. And from that viewpoint as Prabhupada has said, "we are already liberated". Unfortunately it doesn't seem easy to balance all these concepts with out jumping into the deep end of the pool. In reality the deep end is on both sides of the pool - duality.

 

[theist]

Oh yeah. Like it has been your understanding all along.

 

You liar.

 

Then why consider it a curve ball?

[Beggar]

 

Oh yeah. Like it has been your understanding all along.

 

You liar.

 

Then why consider it a curve ball?

I have written similiar things if your willing to take the time to look back through all the posts. LOOKS LIKE YOU'VE BEEN CAUGHT WITH A MILK MOUSTACHE ONCE AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Shakti-Fan]

Okay Theist, so you think that you can hit a Gaudiya Math Major League curve ball?

[theist]

That is an old picture of me before I became vegan.

 

If you have been saying it all the time then why have you been mocking Sarvah and Vigraha who have clearly been saying the same thing as Narayana Maharaja concerning dreaming which you now consider a curve ball?

[theist]

 

Okay Theist, so you think that you can hit a Gaudiya Math Major League curve ball?

 

Think you can throw one?

[Shakti-Fan]

I just tried to simplify things and call it a curve ball. Actually it's a combination of a slider and a curve, which I call a "slurve". It's really a very different thing. Something Minor Leaguers have never seen. See Mad Magazine issue 52, Mad Goes to Major League Baseball. Stop blaspheming my husband, Beggar, you cad!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

First Mruali Mohan jumps into one deep end

 

I just remembered--I CAN'T SWIM!!!

 

Throw me a life-line!!!

[theist]

 

I just tried to simplify things and call it a curve ball. Actually it's a combination of a slider and a curve, which I call a "slurve". It's really a very different thing. Something Minor Leaguers have never seen. See Mad Magazine issue 52, Mad Goes to Major League Baseball. Stop blaspheming my husband, Beggar, you cad!

 

Haha! Good one Shakti-fan. You struck me out with your slurve ball. Or should I say you "fanned" me. (Sorry that pun even made me cringe to it was so bad.)

 

But the slurve was your awesomely clever referrence to slurve and Mad #52. Narayana Maharaja wasn't on the mound for that one. And to stand up for your husband is natural for a noble laby but he will remain a cad until he apologizes to those bhaktas for all that mocking.

 

Enough said from me. Now I must look up Mad #52 in my family album. So hard to keep track of the past.

[Kulapavana]

Look closely at what is being said here:

 

"From Mula Sankarsana comes Maha Sankarsana in Vaikuntha. He manifests the mukta-jivas there, and they eternally serve Rama, Nrsmha, Kalki, Vamana, Narayana and all other svansa incarnations. From Maha Sankarsana comes Karanodakasayi Visnu in the tatastha region, and He manifests the tatastha-jivas. Among them, some become free from maya and some become baddha-jivas, conditioned souls. In this way, we see that all kinds of jivas have come from Baladeva."

 

This is what the shastras say, and this is what our siddhanta is.

 

This statement:

 

"It is told like this in the scriptures, but actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. This is only said to convince ordinary jivas, conditioned souls. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way."

 

is based not so much on shastra, as it is on the relative realisation of this particular sadhu.

 

of course things will seem different from the perspective of Goloka, but: WE ARE HERE, in the material world. This is our siddhanta. The sleepervada is thus apa-siddhanta because it claims we are NOT HERE, in the material world.

[theist]

 

I just tried to simplify things and call it a curve ball. Actually it's a combination of a slider and a curve, which I call a "slurve". It's really a very different thing. Something Minor Leaguers have never seen. See Mad Magazine issue 52, Mad Goes to Major League Baseball. Stop blaspheming my husband, Beggar, you cad!

After digging out the old photos albums I discovered in #52 that was January 1960 and I was out singing Christmas carols. Baseball season hadn't even started.

 

[Guruvani]

I am at a loss to see what the "curve" was in Narayana Maharaja's explanation.

I have read those some things in Srimad Bhagavatam of Srila Prabhupada.

I posted a quote from Bhagavatam just a few days ago about Maha-Sankarsana being the shelter and origin of the tatastha-jivas.

 

I personally didn't read anything new or different from what I already understood from the books of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Can somebody please explain what Narayana Maharaja said that has altered or revised the standard Bhagavat siddhanta on the origin of the jivas?

 

Of course the jivas are eternal.

But, the jiva is a "disintegrated part and parcel of Krishna".

To me that can easily mean that at one point in existence the jiva was NOT disintegrated from Krishna but rather was integrated with Krishna.

 

The fall of the jiva is about the jiva becoming disintegrated from the effulgence of Krishna and losing his absolute position in eternal existence and entering into the realm of duality.

 

The jiva forever remains an individual soul.

But, when the jiva falls down from the absolute existence above the three modes of material nature and enters the realm of duality then he is said to be fallen.

 

The jiva is never really fallen in the sense that the jiva is still eternal brahman under all circumstances, even when he falls into duality of thinking himself as being of this material existence.

 

The brahmajyoti is full of infinite numbers of jiva souls.

When a jiva falls from that absolute platform and partakes of karma within the three modes of material nature, then the jiva is said to be fallen, even though the jiva remains as brahman eternally and never really falls from brahman as actually being brahman by constitution.

 

I can't see any "curve" in the explanation of Narayana Maharaja.

It is the standard Bhagavat siddhanta that anyone should understand by a serious study of the Bhagavatam.

 

Nothing new or different about his explanation.

It is just standard traditional Gaudiya siddhanta on the origin and nature of the jiva soul.