Is it Aparadha if you don't worship Prabhupada's Godbrothers equally with Krishna?

[AncientMariner]

I am willing to offer them the same respect as anyone else but the only person I feel comfortable worshipping on the same level as Krsna is Prabhupada and I can find the same feelings for Jesus and maybe some of the Christian saints. That is not to say they are not on that level because I just don't know one way or another and the only person that has truly captured my attention in Gaudiya Vaisnavism has always been Prabhupada and by default of coming into contact with Prabhupada's writings Lord Rsabadheva, Maharaja Bharata and Jada Bharata and who can not like Prahlada Maharaja. I have read some excerpts from some of the Godbrothers and it seems good and all but I formed such a strong connection to Prabhupada's writings that nothing else really moves me like him.

 

I think I might have met the reincarnation of St. Theresa once don't know for sure but she was a remarkable person. She was a Puerto Rican young woman whose name was Teresa and she was extremely religous in a good sense that she had brahmanical qualities for real. She had a certain beauty and aura and normally if you see a woman that beautiful you lust after her but she had a purity to her that was amazing to the point you didn't even think like that at all you just felt blessed to be in her presence.

[Kulapavana]

It is definitely an aparadha if you think these Vaishnavas are a bunch of unqualified neophites, sudras and sahajiyas, not fit to be Vaishnava gurus.

 

Lets start with a basic reality check. If you worship Prabhupada on the same level as Krsna, but you think that Prabhupada's sannyasa guru is not worthy of such worship, then this is quite likely offensive.

[mahak]

hey, AM, haribol. This is a good question, but before we get started with the incessant rhetoric of personality cultists, we must first understand that Srila Prabhupada uses the word worship to include parents, brahmanas, spiritual masters, etc. All these are worthy of worship.

 

However, there is a word that specifically means worship of the Supreme Lord, Ill look it up when I got more time, and post the quote.

 

This word indicates only Krsna, but Krsna is also meaning his paraphenalia, his devotee. So, we give this same type of exclusive Krsna worship ONLY to those who are fully Krsna Conscious devotees of Krsna. If we throw this worship around because we are feeling pressure from fanatics who think their guru is on the same level as other gurus, this is bogus, aqnd has no value. Give them worship based on this hearsay, but not the worship that is exclusively reserved for krsna. Even Prabhupada never stated that he is worshippable. Anyone who worships him do so only with the realization that he in intimately connected in love with Krsna, such as his disciples and followers whose lives have been made sublime because they have followed his advice. If someone else comes along and says that his godbrothers are just as good, just as worshippable, this may be true or may not be true. Are we such whores to throw away our exclusive love on someone elses wor4d about someone who never made our life sublime?

 

I think not6.

 

If, however, one studies under a particular prabhupada godbrother, and makes advancement to a level that recognition of such a person in loving relationship with krsna, then this exclusive worship is perfectly okay.

 

But not on some joe shmoe das fanaticism spouted off on the internet. Ive been so told many times, and I no ho. Maybe so, for you, but not for me.

 

mahaksadasa

[theist]

We have to accept Krsna as He reveals Himself to us. If that is Prabhupada more than say Sridhar Maharaja then naturally you will focus on Srila Prabhupada. If it is Sridhar Maharaja more than Prabhupada then naturally you would focus on him more than Prabhupada.

 

Many people don't know how to mind their own business and they get caught up in playing "my guru is better than your guru." I would submit that anyone playing that game has no genuine relationship with the person he claims is his guru and is just a pretender anyway. It is an imitationists game.

 

The best way is to quietly stick with the one whom Krsna is revealing Himself through to you while remaining respectful to everyone else and totally ignore the petty little guru debates and wars that rage on over the internet and elsewhere.

[mahak]

its all in the focus. As theist says, if one is somehow convinced that another is just as good as guru, then there is no guru in the first place. Or everyone is guru.

[CCC]

 

I am willing to offer them the same respect as anyone else but the only person I feel comfortable worshipping on the same level as Krsna is Prabhupada and I can find the same feelings for Jesus and maybe some of the Christian saints. That is not to say they are not on that level because I just don't know one way or another and the only person that has truly captured my attention in Gaudiya Vaisnavism has always been Prabhupada and by default of coming into contact with Prabhupada's writings Lord Rsabadheva, Maharaja Bharata and Jada Bharata and who can not like Prahlada Maharaja. I have read some excerpts from some of the Godbrothers and it seems good and all but I formed such a strong connection to Prabhupada's writings that nothing else really moves me like him.

 

I think I might have met the reincarnation of St. Theresa once don't know for sure but she was a remarkable person. She was a Puerto Rican young woman whose name was Teresa and she was extremely religous in a good sense that she had brahmanical qualities for real. She had a certain beauty and aura and normally if you see a woman that beautiful you lust after her but she had a purity to her that was amazing to the point you didn't even think like that at all you just felt blessed to be in her presence.

 

This is one of the best questions.

 

well I don't want to give you a reply but soemtimes I have the same question in my mind.

 

because I am not omniscient and I can't read the minds of others or see their auras, I cant say you that Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers are pure vaishnavas or not, at least I know that Srila Prabhupada is very dear to Sri Krsna and for me Srila Prabhupada was an avatar and saved my life. For me Srila Prabhupada is like Jesus, He teach us with his example and was a devotee from children. Also was authorized by his guru to be acarya in a dream, and so on. He was really blessed by the Lord and his Guru, therefore I try to follow Him and read his books. Also I have had many mystical experience just reading his books and hearing his kirtans

 

well about Prabhupada's god brothers, I respect them, but I don't worship them simply beecause I don't read their books or know them, no one can force you to do that. It took me years to realize that Srila Prabhupada was a bonafide guru and instead of following someone else I just follow him... I found my guru. Also Srila Prabhupad said that no one of his godbrothers were qualified to be an acarya, so I will not take the risk.

[melvin]

Here`s me looking at you, kid.Hehehe.(Please try to read it between the lines)

[Guruvani]

The GBC has vicitimzed many new devotees with a smear campaign to malign and demean the great Vaishnava Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada.

 

So, I guess we really can't blame the clueless new devotees that have been programmed and brainwashed by the GBC and ISKCON guru sect.

 

However, it is very unfortunate and unfair that such a bad stigma has been attached to so many humble Vaishnavas that never did anything to ISKCON or against ISKCON but were slandered, smeared and demeaned systematically by the ISKCON leadership.

[Beggar]

 

Also Srila Prabhupad said that no one of his godbrothers were qualified to be an acarya, so I will not take the risk.

First let me say that I offer my obeisances to your veneration and feelings towards Srila Prabhupada. When we read a statement were Srila Prabhupada tells that none of his godbrothers were qualified to be acarya we must balance that with the letter where he writes that he accepts Srila Sridhar Maharaj as siksa guru. When I post quotes of Srila Sridhar Maharaj on this discussion board, I do so not to canvass for his or anyone's camp, but rather I feel that I am presenting his amazing and revolutionary angles of vision. His spoken word in English was very subtle and he lent a poetic air to his prose. It is almost impossible if not imitative to put in my own language. Here is an example, which I believe is quite profound, coming from lectures that were transcribed then edited into the book titled, "Sri Guru and His Grace". Also worth noting is that these conversations took place in late 1981 and early 1982 during question and answer sessions with some of Srila Prabhupada's disciples.

 

In the Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.9.31) it is stated:

<center> na hy ekasmad guror jnanam

su-sthiram syat su-puskalam </center> "One certainly cannot get complete knowledge from only one guru." In the highest stage of devotion, we must see not only one guru; we must see that guru is everywhere. In the land of Krsna, all are gurus; our transformation should be towards that. Everything in the spiritual world, the entire environment is our guru and we are servants. To enter into Vaikuntha, or Goloka, means that on all sides we must see guru and pay our respects. There is gradation of course, but all are guru.

 

If we approach such knowledge with the proper attitude of pranipat and sevaya, submission and service then that knowledge can be inestimable value to our spiritual sojourn no matter who is our diksa or principal guru.

The danger is that some will canvass you, "for your own good", and they will tell you that you must join in a formal way with a particular teacher. This is the realm of those with a neophyte and kanistha mentality. The irony is that the teachings Srila Sridhar Maharaj are a "clarion call" to all of us to go beyond the limitations of the beginners mentality which is filled with fear of God and thereby His representative. There can be no hope of real love when fear is in the background. In such a state we are fearful and subconciously desiring relief from such fear, and that is the desire for mukti and not devotion or bhakti. Srila Prabhupada is a loving personality to the extreme degree, do not fear to take the proper risks to make real advancement. If you make an honest mistake he will not cast you away into oblivion. Many of us made dishonest mistakes based on our selfish desires and still he accepted us again when we again approached in a humble and honest way. And since Srila Prabhupada is not a mundane personality, this is going on, still in the present.

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Prabhupada tells that none of his godbrothers were qualified to be acarya......

 

Srila Prabhupada also said that at the time of the passing of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami he did not find anyone qualified to be appointed as the successor acharya of Gaudiya Math.

Neither did Srila Saraswati Thakur appoint Srila Prabhupada as the successor acharya of the Gaudiya Math.

 

So, at some point, obviously, Vaishnavas BECOME qualified to become acharya.

They all evolve and develop to the position of becoming acharya.

Srila Prabhupada did and so did some of his Godbrothers.

 

If growth, advancement and realization are not progressive then nobody can ever become acharya.

 

I personally take Srila Prabhupada's statement about his Godbrothers as a device with which to keep his flock focused and centered on His mission to spread the KC movement all over the world.

 

I don't accept it as a FACT as much as I accept it as a circumstantial dictum that was quite useful and prudent during the time of Srila Prabhupada, but which has become a burden in his absence.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

As Sripad Goswami Maharaja said recently:

 

To worship Sri Krishna without Srimati Radharani is half-Mayavadi.

[Guruvani]

 

As Sripad Goswami Maharaja said recently:

 

To worship Sri Krishna without Srimati Radharani is half-Mayavadi.

 

According to Krishnadas Kaviraja Goswami, to worship Krishna without accepting Mahaprabhu is demon.

[Beggar]

 

As Sripad Goswami Maharaja said recently:

 

To worship Sri Krishna without Srimati Radharani is half-Mayavadi.

Sripad Goswami Maharaja quoted Srila Sridhar Maharaj as saying that to worship Krishna alone, without His devotees is half-Mayavad.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Sripad Goswami Maharaja quoted Srila Sridhar Maharaj as saying that to worship Krishna alone, without His devotees is half-Mayavad.

 

Thanks for the correction. Yes, it is true that Sripad Goswami Maharaja almost always relates what he has heard from Srila Prabhupada, Srila Sridhar Maharaja, and Srila Gurudev to the exclusion of all else.

 

No doubt, you know why I bring this up. To worship Srila Prabhupada without giving all honor to his intimate associates...

[mahak]

melvin, whats with the "hehehe". Its just weird, makes ya sound like a perv. It cant be a cue for us to laugh, because it follows some really lame comments. Just give us the joke, forget the laugh track, we will decide to laugh on our own (NOT). mahaksadasa

[AncientMariner]

 

hey, AM, haribol. This is a good question, but before we get started with the incessant rhetoric of personality cultists, we must first understand that Srila Prabhupada uses the word worship to include parents, brahmanas, spiritual masters, etc. All these are worthy of worship.

 

However, there is a word that specifically means worship of the Supreme Lord, Ill look it up when I got more time, and post the quote.

 

This word indicates only Krsna, but Krsna is also meaning his paraphenalia, his devotee. So, we give this same type of exclusive Krsna worship ONLY to those who are fully Krsna Conscious devotees of Krsna. If we throw this worship around because we are feeling pressure from fanatics who think their guru is on the same level as other gurus, this is bogus, aqnd has no value. Give them worship based on this hearsay, but not the worship that is exclusively reserved for krsna. Even Prabhupada never stated that he is worshippable. Anyone who worships him do so only with the realization that he in intimately connected in love with Krsna, such as his disciples and followers whose lives have been made sublime because they have followed his advice. If someone else comes along and says that his godbrothers are just as good, just as worshippable, this may be true or may not be true. Are we such whores to throw away our exclusive love on someone elses wor4d about someone who never made our life sublime?

 

I think not6.

 

If, however, one studies under a particular prabhupada godbrother, and makes advancement to a level that recognition of such a person in loving relationship with krsna, then this exclusive worship is perfectly okay.

 

But not on some joe shmoe das fanaticism spouted off on the internet. Ive been so told many times, and I no ho. Maybe so, for you, but not for me.

 

mahaksadasa

 

Thanks mahak for your reply it makes a lot of sense on a lot of levels.

[AncientMariner]

 

The GBC has vicitimzed many new devotees with a smear campaign to malign and demean the great Vaishnava Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada.

 

So, I guess we really can't blame the clueless new devotees that have been programmed and brainwashed by the GBC and ISKCON guru sect.

 

However, it is very unfortunate and unfair that such a bad stigma has been attached to so many humble Vaishnavas that never did anything to ISKCON or against ISKCON but were slandered, smeared and demeaned systematically by the ISKCON leadership.

 

I admit I am clueless but I have never had any contact with the GBC or ISKCON. Just been studying Krishna Consciousness for about 10 years in the comfort of my own home and in many ways feel blessed that I missed out on all the stuff that happened in Iskcon. The reason I ask the questions about the Godbrothers is I am still trying to understand things as I have read quotes from Prabhupada that seemed to indicate it was not good for his neophytes to associate with them or something. Then I get the other side of the story here and people say the Godbrothers are great so the whole thing gets kind of confusing. I have always stuck to the books of Prabhupada because that seems the simplest and safest course when things are unclear. I have never meant to offend or commit aparadha against Prabhupada's godbrothers or anyone else even though I have not always agreed with the "Narayana Maharaja onlyites" in regards to the living guru issue but I could be wrong on that one who knows as I have seen contradictory stuff on that issue.

[AncientMariner]

 

It is definitely an aparadha if you think these Vaishnavas are a bunch of unqualified neophites, sudras and sahajiyas, not fit to be Vaishnava gurus.

 

Lets start with a basic reality check. If you worship Prabhupada on the same level as Krsna, but you think that Prabhupada's sannyasa guru is not worthy of such worship, then this is quite likely offensive.

 

I honestly don't know enough about them to have an opinion one way or another that is why I ask these question. I have read both sides of the spectrum people saying that the Godbrothers were envious of Prabhupada and I have seen people say the Godbrothers are the greatest of Vaishnavas. The whole thing is a mass of confusion to me so I have always pretty much just kept it simple and read Prabhupada's books but then it seems I get critisized for being a "Prabhupada onlyite" or a half mayavadi.

[theist]

 

The whole thing is a mass of confusion to me so I have always pretty much just kept it simple and read Prabhupada's books but then it seems I get critisized for being a "Prabhupada onlyite" or a half mayavadi.

 

Ignore this nonsense back and forth chatter from these various factions. They confuse you because they are confused.

[Guruvani]

 

They confuse you because they are confused.

 

Why is that?

It looks to me like the fence walkers are confused as they try to walk the middle road and claim to not be on either side.

 

Persons with conviction aren't confused.

They know what they believe.

It is the uncommitted that are confused because they really don't know what they believe.

[theist]

 

Why is that?

It looks to me like the fence walkers are confused as they try to walk the middle road and claim to not be on either side.

 

Persons with conviction aren't confused.

They know what they believe.

It is the uncommitted that are confused because they really don't know what they believe.

 

Wrong again as is your habit. I know who Krsna wants me to hear from and emmulate in my life. That part is crystal. Actually doing it is the work that remains.

 

And because of that clarity I don't need to continue hunting for the source of God's revelation to me. There is more than enough in Prabhupada's books and lectures to keep me occupied for lifetimes and at the rate I am going it will take me many.

 

I don't listen to those that berate Prabhupada's Godbrothers because I know they are aparadhis. It's no mystery.

 

I also don't listen to those that tell me that Prabhupada is dead and gone.

 

I also don't listen to those that claim they are in Sridhar Maharaja's camp or Narayana Maharaja's either. If I want to hear from either I will listen to their lectures or read their books.

 

My inclination is towards Sridhar Maharaj. I have read most of the small books of his teachings that have been published and I have no doubt he is Krsna's devotee.

 

I also have no doubt Narayana Maharaja is an advanced devotee. Their may be hundreds but there is no reason to think I have to try and absorb everything from everyone.

 

I prefer that to publically trying to convince others of my allegience to this devotee or that, this camp or that. I am of no faction. All this nonsense talk has been going on now for 30 years. It seems to be the same people stuck in this zone that keep the nonsense talk going and new people are confused and get caught up in it.

 

****w all these cheap judgments on who is the greatest devotee among them all by kanistha's who still identify the body with the self. It is meaningless noise.

 

Same advice stands. Simple formula to come to find your guru. Pray to Krsna to show you guru. When He does listen to the teachings of that person as he attempts to give you Krsna and become indifferent to all else that you may hear or have heard.

 

Stay focused and free from gossip.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

the "Narayana Maharaja onlyites"

 

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: "I know that in all preaching the root is Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Maharaja Prabhupada. Only by his mercy is everyone preaching. When I preach, all know that, "Oh, he is in line of Srila Svamiji; he is preaching in his line." Everywhere in the world, except in India, Svamiji did this; being one hand of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Gosvami Thakura. He also did it in India, but in India there were others as well.

 

 

I know that everywhere there are so many disciples of various sections-like Govinda Maharaja, myself, Srila Puri Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Ballabha Tirtha Maharaja. All are making disciples, but I think we are in one family. Now I see however, that so many sections don't like each other. They fight among themselves, and also with others. They even fight with their wives and divorce them. And some disciples can divorce their Guru also. But we don't like that. We should try to help each other.

 

 

There is some envy. The disciples of certain gurus never come to me. They fear somewhat, but I don't fear. I know that they are in one family and they should come. They are fearing that, "Oh, when he will come, he will take all my disciples and attract them." But really I don't want to do that. I want to help all, as a siksa-guru helps. They should understand this, and they should not quarrel; otherwise this preaching will come to some harm.

 

We should think in this way: "He can help my disciples, and I should help his disciples." During Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's time there was no division like this - that he should come and he should not come. All used to come to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu; all used to come to Srila Rupa Gosvami. I want it to be like that."

[realist]

 

well about Prabhupada's god brothers, I respect them, but I don't worship them simply beecause I don't read their books or know them, no one can force you to do that. It took me years to realize that Srila Prabhupada was a bonafide guru and instead of following someone else I just follow him... I found my guru. Also Srila Prabhupad said that no one of his godbrothers were qualified to be an acarya, so I will not take the risk.

 

That is the conclusion of all ISKCON devotees. Respect them because their end result is to go back home back to Godhead and serve Krishna. Yesterday I chanted in a street kirtan with Narayana Maharaj disciples and it was ecstatic, they had no idea who I was, I just finished my job as a santa clause and danced with them in my santa costume for an hour.

[Guruvani]

 

I just finished my job as a santa clause and danced with them in my santa costume for an hour.

 

You really shouldn't reveal such stupidity in front of everybody.

Sounds like a typical brainwashed, blind follower of the cult.

[realist]

 

You really shouldn't reveal such stupidity in front of everybody.

Sounds like a typical brainwashed, blind follower of the cult.

 

 

There all right mate, at least they chant Hare Krishna and are in our line of Gaudiya devotional succession.

 

Any way,we all have to work for a living, I just happen to be santa clause. I will tell you something funny. A Mataji came to Myer (just happens to be Australia's biggest department store) with her kids, a young six year old sat on my lap and told me what he wanted (the latest transformer movie) I asked him, wouldn't you rather have a story about Krishna, then chanted the first three verses of the Brahma samhita in his ear. The young boy ran back to mum saying 'santa' is a devotee, he chanted to me and told me to get a movie about Krishna when he was the boy'.