Is it Aparadha if you don't worship Prabhupada's Godbrothers equally with Krishna?

[cbrahma]

I wonder about those who are intensely concerned about exactly how much worship one Vaisnava is receiving over another.

This is more in the vein of a popularity , or celebrity contest, a kind of Gaudiya 'American Idol'. It cheapens the whole process.

To the utama-adhikari all living entities are worthy of obeisances, because of Super-soul , because he sees Krsna in everything.

There is no contest.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

To the utama-adhikari all living entities are worthy of obeisances, because of Super-soul , because he sees Krsna in everything.

There is no contest.

 

Amen to that!!

[Vikram Ramsundar]

To Beggar, Theist, Murali_Mohan_das and Mahak, I concur with the gist of all your arguments, as those are laden with balance, humility, objectivity and common sense.

 

To Guruvani, I have to say that I'm pleasantly surprised at your change of heart. Your posts now are a far cry from what they were just 5 or 6 months ago when you came down on me so hard for defending the Gaudiya Matha and traditional Parivaras against the typical, standard ISKCON derogatory remarks and petty insults. I had realised that mainstream ISKCON was a non-starter after witnessing first-hand their discriminatory, immature mentality and cultish attitude through frequent association with them. And yes, I am also familar with the useless cabbage leaf called "Our Original Position", written by Drutakarma dasa alias Michael A. Cremo. I am glad that you've altered your tune, otherwise you were a lost case. Good for you.

 

Hari Om and Hari Bol

[Sarva gattah]

'Our original position' is written by Suhotra Swami OOP.ZIP 242286 25-Dec-95 Our Original Position (GBC Press

 

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A great Vaishnava teacher in the Hare Krishna tradition, he ...

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Guest (1): Well, could you correct me if I'm wrong. We have a society called Ramakrishna Society, a society in Burma. Those people who founded this society and are practicing Krsna culture, they don't wear those things, or they don't chant in their temple, but they do all sorts of social welfare type of thing. Is there any difference between...

Prabhupada: Ramakrishna Mission is not Vedic. It is a creation of Vivekananda's concoction. It is not Vedic. Just like they created a God, Ramakrishna. So that is not a Vedic sanction, that you create any fool rascal, a god.

Guest (1): Isn't yours a product of or derivative of Vedic?

Prabhupada: Yes, completely.

Guest (1): So how would you...

Prabhupada: Just like whatever question you are asking, we are answering from Vedic literature. We are not answering ourself. That is the difference. The evidence is from the Vedic literature. I don't say that "In my opinion it is like this." We don't say.

Guest (1): I'm sorry, I missed that point. Could you please explain?

Paramahamsa: He said it is Vedic because the answers he is giving are not his opinion or concoction, but he is giving from the Vedic knowledge or the Vedic scriptures instead of making up his own opinion. That is the meaning of Vedic; it is based on the Vedic teachings exactly.

Guest (1): But the Ramakrishna wasn't.

Prabhupada: No.

Guest (1): They formed their own way.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (2): Do you consider that this kind of practice or the practicing this kind of culture is regimentated? A person has to come in and spend some times in the temple, and...

Prabhupada: Yes, the association, the influence of association. If you go to a drunkard association, you become a drunkard.

[Vikram Ramsundar]

Everyone knows that OOP is the work of Drutakarma first and foremost. Suhotra "Swami" became known as Suhotra Prabhu shortly before his departure from this world, because he "fell" and was forced to give up the sannyasa ashram. He even needed to ask for forgiveness from his so-called disciples for having let them down.

[Sarva gattah]

So what? It does change the fact that 'right now', you and I and every living entity including those 'dreaming' in the bodily vessels as hogs, dogs, camels and arseholes are ALL nitya-siddha. See, you Guruvani and all the others trapped in 'I AM FROM THE IMPERSONAL BRAHMAJYOTI NONSENSE misundertood from Sridar Maharaj's plain sheet of impersonal conscious silly teachings', cannot understand that once you are in Goloka it will be as if you have never left - Read the transcendental teachings of Vigraha and you will understand, he has even become nice now to the Gaudiya math:D Although that want last because impersonalism has poisioned the present day version of the Gaudiya math

 

The the real eternal truth as givin by OUR Srila Prabhupada below:namaskar:

[Vikram Ramsundar]

 

So what? It does change the fact that 'right now', you and I and every living entity including those 'dreaming' in the bodily vessels as hogs, dogs, camels and arseholes are ALL nitya-siddha. See, you Guruvani and all the others trapped in 'I AM FROM THE IMPERSONAL BRAHMAJYOTI NONSENSE misundertood from Sridar Maharaj's plain sheet of impersonal conscious silly teachings', cannot understand that once you are in Goloka it will be as if you have never left - Read the transcendental teachings of Vigraha and you will understand, he has even become nice now to the Gaudiya math:D Although that want last because impersonalism has poisioned the present day version of the Gaudiya math

 

The the real eternal truth as givin by OUR Srila Prabhupada below:namaskar:

 

OOP is a joke that is not worth the paper on which it is printed. Be happy in ISKCON. I'd rather slaughter cows for a living rather than suck up to the sleeper-vadis.

[Vikram Ramsundar]

 

arseholes

 

By the way, I have never and will never make use of this abject variety of invective on a spiritually-oriented website, even being the lowly meat-eater and drinker that I am. I am myself continually stunned by the fact that I fare a lot better in the area of manners and etiquette than quite a few "devotees". And it doesn't take a genius to figure out where the majority of those uncouth, boorish oafs come from.

[Sarva gattah]

Again so what!! Whether you believe it or not, you are right now nitya siddha!

You don't have to suck up to anyone or be a member of ISKCON because the fact is you are and always have been nitya-siddha. It’s not just an ISKCON thing, realist hates the present version of ISKCON, but it does not change his belief that 'right now' we are all nitya-siddha.

Even some GBC men, like Banu Maharaj cannot understand that we are all nitya-siddha devotees of Krishna. Not even he can recognize the eternal 'present' which simply means, once in the eternal present, it will be as if we have always been there because of the absents of past and future.

In fact, most ISKCON devotee’s, including Gurus and Sannyasi's, cannot comprehend this fact and prefer NOT to discus it. Vey few ISKCON temple devotees comment on these posts.

Go on most ISKCON sites and you will not see it NEVER discussed. In fact in many Temples discussion of this topic is 'unofficially banned’. We can’t understand it so why discuss it. After all Srila Prabhupada told us not to waste our time discussing it. Type in ISKCON Melbourne and write 'origin of the jiva soul', nothing comes up because no one there has any solid understanding, Banu Swami will not discuss it, Ramai Swami answers this by saying it is a mystery or refers devotees to 'our original position', which frankly is not that clear on the subject. Yes Srila Prabhuada told us in a letter in 1972 (I was there) that it is better not to waste our time on this subject however in another letter in 1974 in Mayapur Srila Prabhupada says we must try and understand that we have come down from Vaikuntha and says of devotees who avoid trying to understand that we are now in Goloka, but presently only ‘think’ imagine and dream we are not there, when in fact we are perpetually there, is they don’t want to know. This why most ISKCON temples have adopted the 1972, 'Crow and Tala-fruit Logic letter instead of the 1974 Mayapur lecture.

Even all outside sites at Melbourne Temple web site have been censored. Other ISKCON Temples around the world are not so fanatical, such as Dandavats and some American Temples, although you can’t blame Temple Presidents trying to protect young devotees from outside controversies and ragging and often abusive debates.

iskcon.com - ISKCON Communications Journal - ICJ

 

<TABLE style="mso-cellspacing: 0cm; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 408pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=544>In 1972, in response to a letter from his Australian disciples, Prabhupada dictated a brief essay entitled 'Crow and Tala-fruit Logic. ...

 

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[Vikram Ramsundar]

 

Again so what!! Whether you believe it or not, you are right now nitya siddha!

You don't have to suck up to anyone or be a member of ISKCON because the fact is you are and always have been nitya-siddha. It’s not just an ISKCON thing, realist hates the present version of ISKCON, but it does not change his belief that 'right now' we are all nitya-siddha.

Even some GBC men, like Banu Maharaj cannot understand that we are all nitya-siddha devotees of Krishna. Not even he can recognize the eternal 'present' which simply means, once in the eternal present, it will be as if we have always been there because of the absents of past and future.

In fact, most ISKCON devotee’s, including Gurus and Sannyasi's, cannot comprehend this fact and prefer NOT to discus it. Vey few ISKCON temple devotees comment on these posts.

Go on most ISKCON sites and you will not see it NEVER discussed. In fact in many Temples discussion of this topic is 'unofficially banned’. We can’t understand it so why discuss it. After all Srila Prabhupada told us not to waste our time discussing it. Type in ISKCON Melbourne and write 'origin of the jiva soul', nothing comes up because no one there has any solid understanding, Banu Swami will not discuss it, Ramai Swami answers this by saying it is a mystery or refers devotees to 'our original position', which frankly is not that clear on the subject. Yes Srila Prabhuada told us in a letter in 1972 (I was there) that it is better not to waste our time on this subject however in another letter in 1974 in Mayapur Srila Prabhupada says we must try and understand that we have come down from Vaikuntha and says of devotees who avoid trying to understand that we are now in Goloka, but presently only ‘think’ imagine and dream we are not there, when in fact we are perpetually there, is they don’t want to know. This why most ISKCON temples have adopted the 1972, 'Crow and Tala-fruit Logic letter instead of the 1974 Mayapur lecture.

Even all outside sites at Melbourne Temple web site have been censored. Other ISKCON Temples around the world are not so fanatical, such as Dandavats and some American Temples, although you can’t blame Temple Presidents trying to protect young devotees from outside controversies and ragging and often abusive debates.

iskcon.com - ISKCON Communications Journal - ICJ

 

<TABLE style="mso-cellspacing: 0cm; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 408pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=544>In 1972, in response to a letter from his Australian disciples, Prabhupada dictated a brief essay entitled 'Crow and Tala-fruit Logic. ...

 

 

 

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Well, I'm only asking not to be proselytized. I have good relations with several ISKCON members who most definitely share your belief in the descent from Goloka theory. And I also agree with those who choose not to discuss it at length, because that seems to be a reasonable option in my opinion. What I and many others do not appreciate is the fact that you and some others are so bullish about this entire question. You rest confident in your ideas and allow the rest of us the same courtesy. Respect our differing takes on the matter. Pranam

[Beggar]

 

Everyone knows that OOP is the work of Drutakarma first and foremost. Suhotra "Swami" became known as Suhotra Prabhu shortly before his departure from this world, because he "fell" and was forced to give up the sannyasa ashram. He even needed to ask for forgiveness from his so-called disciples for having let them down.

Suhotra Swami, Prabhu, was a total lunatic. But even though he was a GBC loyalist and a strong opponent of anything else and quite closeminded, he was a lovable lunatic and my friend.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I'm Henry the eighth I am

Henry the eighth I am, I am

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Again so what!! Whether you believe it or not, you are right now nitya siddha!<table style="" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="border: medium none rgb(212, 208, 200); padding: 0cm; width: 408pt; background-color: transparent;" width="544">

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[Kulapavana]

Here is an example of a typical Vaishnava aparadha attitude displayed by people claiming to be disciples of Srila Prabhupada:

 

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2250.htm

 

in reality, such people are just kali-chelas

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

I am myself continually stunned by the fact that I fare a lot better in the area of manners and etiquette than quite a few "devotees".

 

Better knock on wood. Oh, no. Too late. We've already seen how "mannered" you were on that other thread.

 

From the mundane perspective, Srila Prabhupada's manners were very lacking, weren't they? He'd cut people off in conversations routinely.

 

Of course, we can see that it was for their ultimate benefit that he did so. He cut through the crap to get to the essence.

 

 

http://vedabase.net/sb/3/29/18/

 

 

Another word used here is ārjavena, meaning "without diplomacy." A devotee should not make plans out of self-interest. Of course, preachers sometimes have to make some plan to execute the mission of the Lord under proper guidance, but regarding personal self-interest, a devotee should always be without diplomacy, and he should avoid the company of persons who are not advancing in spiritual life.

[Kulapavana]

 

these guys are living in the stone-age of the KC movement.

 

such comparison is actually disrespectful to the stone-age people...

 

these guys remind me of the worst cases of cultish behavior our movement ever produced, back in the Gunsadutta and Queertanananda crazy days. because such people are still very much around, Lord Krsna is keeping our movement tightly in check. these people shamed the Vaishnava tradition enough.

[theist]

Gossip and behind the back name calling certainly establishes one's vaisnava credentials now doesn't it?

[cbrahma]

 

Gossip and behind the back name calling certainly establishes one's vaisnava credentials now doesn't it?

Yes it confirms the point that the guru wars are less about the tattva than the guru.

[Guruvani]

 

Yes it confirms the point that the guru wars are less about the tattva than the guru.

 

Yes it confirms the point that the guru wars are less about the tattva than the pseudo aparadhi gurus.

[AncientMariner]

 

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: "I know that in all preaching the root is Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Maharaja Prabhupada. Only by his mercy is everyone preaching. When I preach, all know that, "Oh, he is in line of Srila Svamiji; he is preaching in his line." Everywhere in the world, except in India, Svamiji did this; being one hand of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Gosvami Thakura. He also did it in India, but in India there were others as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know that everywhere there are so many disciples of various sections-like Govinda Maharaja, myself, Srila Puri Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Ballabha Tirtha Maharaja. All are making disciples, but I think we are in one family. Now I see however, that so many sections don't like each other. They fight among themselves, and also with others. They even fight with their wives and divorce them. And some disciples can divorce their Guru also. But we don't like that. We should try to help each other.

 

 

 

 

 

There is some envy. The disciples of certain gurus never come to me. They fear somewhat, but I don't fear. I know that they are in one family and they should come. They are fearing that, "Oh, when he will come, he will take all my disciples and attract them." But really I don't want to do that. I want to help all, as a siksa-guru helps. They should understand this, and they should not quarrel; otherwise this preaching will come to some harm.

 

 

We should think in this way: "He can help my disciples, and I should help his disciples." During Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's time there was no division like this - that he should come and he should not come. All used to come to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu; all used to come to Srila Rupa Gosvami. I want it to be like that."

 

Regarding "Narayana Maharaja onlyites":

 

Didn't mean it as a criticism of Narayana Maharaja. Was mostly joking around about how Narayana Maharaja devotees have claimed I was a "Prabhupada Onlyite" because I didn't agree with them on the living guru issue based on different quotes I had read from Prabhupada. So I just flipped the word around.

 

Narayana Maharaja certainly sounds like a gentleman worthy of much respect in those words above.

[AncientMariner]

Is it aparadha...

 

 

......... as much as not noticing or not offering obeisances when Krsna is present, as in a Deity arcana form or in a silagrama-sila. But maybe we can't recognize Him; hence our callous error, our disqualification.

 

That's all fine and dandy but I was under the understanding that you are supposed to be somewhat careful in who you put on the same level as Krishna and apparently at one time Prabhupada's own guru said his godbrothers were not on that level. Maybe they have now achieved that level I don't know as I am barely just learning about them. I guess that makes me a fence sitter.

[AncientMariner]

 

I didn't.

But, ISKCON fanatics like yourself have shown me the light that Narayan Maharaja is the true living acharya and ISKCON is a deviant cult gone astray from the Gaudiya sampradaya.

 

Now, I understand that Narayana Maharaja is the true successor to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Hearing the sleepervadi heresy being preached all over the internet by some ISKCON nutjobs has turned me into a follower of Narayana Maharaja.

 

Wow, I thought I had seen it all. Now if we could just get you to accept the quote where Prabhuapda compared Jesus to Prahlada Maharaja and Haridasa Thakura your transformation would be complete.

[AncientMariner]

 

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

 

The goal is to only hear Krsna's voice especially in one whom you accept as guru. If we don't hear Krsna's voice then what is the point of listening to anyone?

 

 

Agreed.

[Vikram Ramsundar]

 

Better knock on wood. Oh, no. Too late. We've already seen how "mannered" you were on that other thread.

 

 

Well, at least I don't use swear words such as the one your fellow practicing Vaishnava did, and which I quoted in my reply to him. I travel and move in professional circles frequented by educated, professional, upper middle-class persons who could for sure teach you one or two things about social etiquette. And regarding one of the comments (uninvited of course, for it was none of your beeswax in all frankness) you made about what I wrote, I don't consider my statements to be brazen in the least. Keep your faschist dogmas on the issues I mentioned therein to yourself. They only make sense to you and your ilk, not those like myself who live in the real world.

[suchandra]

 

Well, at least I don't use swear words such as the one your fellow practicing Vaishnava did, and which I quoted in my reply to him. I travel and move in professional circles frequented by educated, professional, upper middle-class persons who could for sure teach you one or two things about social etiquette. And regarding one of the comments (uninvited of course, for it was none of your beeswax in all frankness) you made about what I wrote, I don't consider my statements to be brazen in the least. Keep your faschist dogmas on the issues I mentioned therein to yourself. They only make sense to you and your ilk, not those like myself who live in the real world.

 

Since your primary concern is to point out that you're a non-Vaishnava, why waste time in a Vaishnava forum?

[Vikram Ramsundar]

 

Since your primary concern is to point out that you're a non-Vaishnava, why waste time in a Vaishnava forum?

 

Is this a Vaishnava forum? I didn't know that. Thanks for enlightening me. I was always under the impression that this was a generic Hindu/Vedic place for the exchange of ideas. But you've burst my blissfully ignorant bubble, buddy. Cheers for that.

 

Just one thing, though. If you Vaishnavas consider yourselves to be a cult, separate from the mainstream Hindu populace (except for the times when you run to us shamelessly begging for funds to finance your Ratha Yatras and Janmashtami celebrations), why has Parker dedicated such a monumental part of his Indiadivine site to things distinctly non-Gaudiya Vaishnava (Maha Shivaratri, Trailanga Baba, Swami Sivananda and so forth)? It seems to me that these forums are open to everyone, and going by the many topics under discussion here, I find it more than obvious that this is NOT just a Hare Krishna spot.